BOUGHT/THOUGHT Thread for 6/21/06: SPOILERS Inside!

[Speedball]

oh yeah- I generally like Bendis' work, but this was a new low point in any comic book series.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

OK...
So i read NA #20 this morning.
Worst comic book i have ever read or looked at.
Where in the hell did the vision come from? And what happened to Spidey in those two group shots, when the Zombies are rising? Is he swinging, no because if you look at the vision, he has the exact same body type as spidey. It's like Bendis just threw him in there just so he could say "This Xorn is not in my memory banks" or some such nonsense.
And then, oh this is the worst part- Magneto's death is so poorly handled, that it makes him seem like a he was the most minor character ever. WOW! He wrote a book, who gives a frak, i wanted to see the look on the Avengers' faces, the evil B**** who runs SHIELD. OH- and the Art, I'm not an artist, but i would be able to draw better than this rush job of a piece of crap.
Hopefully #21 can redeem it this week.
Why is #21 coming out a week after #20 came out?
I'll be back after four to discuss even more reasons why it was so bad.

Oh no!

 

[Darthphere]

Because they dont think weve suffered enough.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I don't see that as a complaint at all, and it was just stuck in the middle of his rant.

 

[Electro UK]

OK...
So i read NA #20 this morning.
Worst comic book i have ever read or looked at.
Where in the hell did the vision come from? And what happened to Spidey in those two group shots, when the Zombies are rising? Is he swinging, no because if you look at the vision, he has the exact same body type as spidey. It's like Bendis just threw him in there just so he could say "This Xorn is not in my memory banks" or some such nonsense.
And then, oh this is the worst part- Magneto's death is so poorly handled, that it makes him seem like a he was the most minor character ever. WOW! He wrote a book, who gives a frak, i wanted to see the look on the Avengers' faces, the evil B**** who runs SHIELD. OH- and the Art, I'm not an artist, but i would be able to draw better than this rush job of a piece of crap.
Hopefully #21 can redeem it this week.
Why is #21 coming out a week after #20 came out?
I'll be back after four to discuss even more reasons why it was so bad.

So a few nit picks such as Vision's appearance and Spidey not being drawn in a panel make it one of the worst comic books of all time?

The art was fine, I liked it a lot in fact, no where near as bad as you make it out to be. Same for Magneto's "death" it was no big "OMG Mgneto i dead lOL!1" Panel because Bendis CLEARLY pointed out Magneto was not dead.

Worst comic book of all time? Not by a long shot.

 

[gildea]

OK...
So i read NA #20 this morning.
Worst comic book i have ever read or looked at.
Where in the hell did the vision come from? And what happened to Spidey in those two group shots, when the Zombies are rising? Is he swinging, no because if you look at the vision, he has the exact same body type as spidey. It's like Bendis just threw him in there just so he could say "This Xorn is not in my memory banks" or some such nonsense..

If you had read the arc you would know why vision was there.


To be honest IMO most of the flaws in this arc weren't of bendis's making (arguably) but he really shouldn't have brought xorn into it.

On the upside it worked quite well for me, I have ignored the whole xorn 'thing' after the morrison issues where xorn was himself beginning to develop a personality in magnetos drug addled mind so upon reading the arc this is what I assumed xorn was (and had been yanked from mags after HOM). Basically just an aspect of mags as morrison intended.
I think in my mind I'll continue to believe that

 

[BrianWilly]

Pray tell...how, exactly, were the flaws not of Bendis' making? He wrote the story. He wrote the preceding stories, House of M and Disassembled, which created the complications leading up to this story. If he doesn't shoulder the blame for these flaws, then who does??

Heck, he already gave a halfway reasonable explanation for Xorn during House of M...Wanda went crazy, and thus continuity took it up the bum. The end. It wasn't the greatest explanation, but at least it made comic book sense and cleanly wrapped up one of the most embarrassing and confusing plot fckups that Marvel has had since spider-clones.

Now, he for some reason decides to drag up the Xorneto mess again after already having resolved it, and screw up his own explanation in lieu of one that brings up right back to Xorn impersonating Magneto impersonating...Xorn. Okay. Unless Quesada was forcing him with threats of Roboto Tentacle Rapist 500 to write this sht out, I don't see how it isn't his fault. How many freebies is this guy going to get, anyway? Hawkeye. Wanda. Spidey. HoM. Ronin. Alpha Flight. The list goes on and on. When are people going to stop making excuses for him?

On the upside it worked quite well for me, I have ignored the whole xorn 'thing' after the morrison issues where xorn was himself beginning to develop a personality in magnetos drug addled mind so upon reading the arc this is what I assumed xorn was (and had been yanked from mags after HOM). Basically just an aspect of mags as morrison intended.
I think in my mind I'll continue to believe that

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to just do that, too.

 

[deemar325]

Deodato art is pretty craptastic.

 

[Speedball]

If you had read the arc you would know why vision was there.


To be honest IMO most of the flaws in this arc weren't of bendis's making (arguably) but he really shouldn't have brought xorn into it.

On the upside it worked quite well for me, I have ignored the whole xorn 'thing' after the morrison issues where xorn was himself beginning to develop a personality in magnetos drug addled mind so upon reading the arc this is what I assumed xorn was (and had been yanked from mags after HOM). Basically just an aspect of mags as morrison intended.
I think in my mind I'll continue to believe that

I have read the whole arc.
I know why vision was there, but my problem was he just appeared out of nowhere. he wasn't shown in any of the pages before, and seemed to serve no purpose in this issue.
I know he was probably in the jet, but still, it's been a month since the last one came out, Some stuff is gonna be forgotten in my mind.
And the end was underwhelming. I expected something huge to happen, like the powers of all mutants were returned, but no it collected into a huge ball of energy and was thrown into the Sun, something that was done by Superman hundreds of times before this comic.

 

[Speedball]

Deodato art is pretty craptastic.

OH I was so pissed when we got that amazing looking issue when Alpha Flight "died", and then the art switched to one of the worst looks i have ever seen.

 

[deemar325]

I don't get it, why is Deodato considered a Top Talent?

All his body types he draws are the same, whether it's Spidey or Ironman. His art has all sorts of distorted mistakes and he draws Peter like he's 40.

 

[Darthphere]

Deodato is best suited on a title like Hulk.

 

[Sin Eater]

How many freebies is this guy going to get, anyway? Hawkeye. Wanda. Spidey. HoM. Ronin. Alpha Flight. The list goes on and on. When are people going to stop making excuses for him?

It's only the desperate ones that are still running to his defense, but the fact is, Bendis is a very limited writer who had early success that he continues to live off of.

When was the last story that he wrote that was noteworthy?

He's clearly not cut out for writing something like the Avengers, and even members of his own board have run out of excuses for him. Too bad his lips are wrapped around Joe Quesada's big ass, because it would be nice to get a better writer involved with Avengers again and sweep all this "New Avengers" lameness under the rug...

 

[deemar325]

Deodato is best suited on a title like Hulk.

That's the only thing mainstream I can see him doing, other than that he's better off doing cheap Horror comics.

 

[Darthphere]

New Avengers: Disasembled. Everytime I read this it makes me laugh. We can expect this at least 4 more times if he ever gets to 100 issues.

 

[Speedball]

It's like Bendis has a vendetta against the Magnus family.
First, he screws over Scarlet Witch by making her insane.
Then screws her over more by erasing her from existence, and makes her brother the bad guy.
Then he kills the Magnus family leader in one of the crappiest stories i've ever read.

 

[gildea]

I have read the whole arc.
I know why vision was there, but my problem was he just appeared out of nowhere. he wasn't shown in any of the pages before, and seemed to serve no purpose in this issue.
I know he was probably in the jet, but still, it's been a month since the last one came out, Some stuff is gonna be forgotten in my mind.

fair enough. Seems a harsh criticism IMO mind you but to each our own.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Oh yeah, I also read Birds of Prey, pretty good, it definitely got better after a crappy first issue.

I agree with Birds of Prey being a decent read, especially compared to a few of the other OYL titles. I am disappointed in it and some of the other books for a simple reason: Everything pretty much goes back to where they were before. Birds of Prey mixed things up a bit by having a bad girl join the group...but, Black Canary comes back next issue, and I assume everything is going to be business as usual. In Robin, the big mystery of him being accused of killing Batgirl is already over, and guess what? Yep, everything is back to normal. Now, a few of the OYL titles I just gave up on....Nightwing is one of the worst, as is Manhunter and Hawkgirl. As mentioned before, Robin is in so many titles, and none of the other titles besides his own even mentioned him being accused of murder. The whole Superman story really was quite lame...wow, him and Lex Luthor fighting again, and the fight from the last issue bored the hell out of me.

DC got me interested in all of their OYL titles and 52. And, except for a few OYL titles, most will be dropped. I'll pick up some of the new titles to come out and finish storylines, but these are the few I'll probably keep reading for awhile:

Teen Titans
Outsiders
Green Lantern Corps
Batman (from time to time)
Catwoman
Supergirl and the Legion of Superheroes

Also, 52 is the one bright, shining light. All the storylines have my interest. In the end, Decimation had much better stories than OYL.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

It's like Bendis has a vendetta against the Magnus family.
First, he screws over Scarlet Witch by making her insane.
Then screws her over more by erasing her from existence, and makes her brother the bad guy.
Then he kills the Magnus family leader in one of the crappiest stories i've ever read.

They were already the most screwed up family.I just now think he's made more than Magneto villain legend. the way it should be. Anyway Wanda's children are in Young Avengers What a great book that is The good side of the House of Magnus still lives.

 

[Darthphere]

I agree with Birds of Prey being a decent read, especially compared to a few of the other OYL titles. I am disappointed in it and some of the other books for a simple reason: Everything pretty much goes back to where they were before. Birds of Prey mixed things up a bit by having a bad girl join the group...but, Black Canary comes back next issue, and I assume everything is going to be business as usual. In Robin, the big mystery of him being accused of killing Batgirl is already over, and guess what? Yep, everything is back to normal. Now, a few of the OYL titles I just gave up on....Nightwing is one of the worst, as is Manhunter and Hawkgirl. As mentioned before, Robin is in so many titles, and none of the other titles besides his own even mentioned him being accused of murder. The whole Superman story really was quite lame...wow, him and Lex Luthor fighting again, and the fight from the last issue bored the hell out of me.

DC got me interested in all of their OYL titles and 52. And, except for a few OYL titles, most will be dropped. I'll pick up some of the new titles to come out and finish storylines, but these are the few I'll probably keep reading for awhile:

Teen Titans
Outsiders
Green Lantern Corps
Batman (from time to time)
Catwoman
Supergirl and the Legion of Superheroes

Also, 52 is the one bright, shining light. All the storylines have my interest. In the end, Decimation had much better stories than OYL.

I think OYL has been a success IMO. The SUperman arc was greta, but i agree the last issue was pretty weak. Nightwing sucks, Robin is getting there, Flash was ok. But mostly I think its been a success.

 

[Ben Urich]

I think we can all agree that Bendis writes the worst death scenes.

 

[Dread]

Pray tell...how, exactly, were the flaws not of Bendis' making? He wrote the story. He wrote the preceding stories, House of M and Disassembled, which created the complications leading up to this story. If he doesn't shoulder the blame for these flaws, then who does??

Heck, he already gave a halfway reasonable explanation for Xorn during House of M...Wanda went crazy, and thus continuity took it up the bum. The end. It wasn't the greatest explanation, but at least it made comic book sense and cleanly wrapped up one of the most embarrassing and confusing plot fckups that Marvel has had since spider-clones.

Now, he for some reason decides to drag up the Xorneto mess again after already having resolved it, and screw up his own explanation in lieu of one that brings up right back to Xorn impersonating Magneto impersonating...Xorn. Okay. Unless Quesada was forcing him with threats of Roboto Tentacle Rapist 500 to write this sht out, I don't see how it isn't his fault. How many freebies is this guy going to get, anyway? Hawkeye. Wanda. Spidey. HoM. Ronin. Alpha Flight. The list goes on and on. When are people going to stop making excuses for him?

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to just do that, too.

Oh, they'll stop coming up with excuses when/if Bendis ever ceases to sell well. Trust me, if Bendis was selling in the Top 60 instead of the Top 10, Joe Q wouldn't be jumping through hoops to defend him. He's a shameless pimp like that. And you can take that as an insult or a compliment.

Yeah, I should know better with NEW AVENGERS, but that title is almost a primer of whatever major storyline that Marvel wants to do, considering its their #1 book, so I read it to get a head's up. Plus, well, its already habit now. It has its moments but it keeps going downhill once the climax comes. Amazingly, Bendis does much better in one-shot stories than multi-arcs; aside for those who actually liked Black Widow II, NEW AVENGERS ANNUAL #1 was the best NA ever, far more enjoyable than COLLECTIVE was.

It is a bit disturbing that Bendis get so much leeway to maim/kill so many characters. Nearly every arc of his Avengers stuff relies on offing people for shock value. But, again, NA is Marvel's #1 selling regular title because of Bendis, so he gets a lot of leeway.

At least USM was able to rebound back after a handful of either terrible or mediocre storylines, but NA hasn't bounced back quite yet. Bendis just proves himself more and more out of his element with mainstream superhero books. Still, I've read much worse than NA #20, he makes the president seem more evil than Agent Hill for once (Hell, Hill was almost reasonable in this issue), and rather than being disappointed at Magneto's 100th "non-death", I could only laugh at what a parody he's become in Marvel's addiction to overusing him. Much as when Norman Osborn once again is behind some nefarious Spider-plot for the 12th time post resurrection (which wasn't even 10 years ago!).

 

[Sin Eater]

But, again, NA is Marvel's #1 selling regular title because of Bendis, so he gets a lot of leeway.

That's not true, though. New Avengers is Marvel's # 1 selling book because it's been turned into Marvel's "main" title, where you're almost forced to read it because everything revolves around it. It's Marvel's #1 book because Wolverine and Spider-Man are in it with other popular heroes who have had more attention given to them lately, like Cap and Iron-Man. It's not #1 because Bendis, just as Ultimate Spider-Man isn't the #1 Ultimate title. I think we would ALL agree that it's quality definitely isn't what's got it on top, and this shock value **** from Bendis just proves how poor of a writer he really is. I'm just surprised more people haven't woken up to this, although the number has been steadily growing.

 

[Dread]

That's not true, though. New Avengers is Marvel's # 1 selling book because it's been turned into Marvel's "main" title, where you're almost forced to read it because everything revolves around it. It's Marvel's #1 book because Wolverine and Spider-Man are in it with other popular heroes who have had more attention given to them lately, like Cap and Iron-Man. It's not #1 because Bendis, just as Ultimate Spider-Man isn't the #1 Ultimate title. I think we would ALL agree that it's quality definitely isn't what's got it on top, and this shock value **** from Bendis just proves how poor of a writer he really is. I'm just surprised more people haven't woken up to this, although the number has been steadily growing.

I've known this since NA #2, which I think still holds the cake for their worst issue for me (and that's saying something). DISASSEMBLED was nothing to write home about. I agree, NA has become a primer for whatever Marvel's doing with their universe that year/month.

According to an interview Quesada gave for ULTIMATE AVENGERS, it seemed to me that getting Spider-Man & Wolverine on the Avengers was a key point for NA regardless of who was writing it. Naturally, the problem is that under Bendis, both they and a good bunch of the team itself don't do very much in their own book. Maybe he feels himself too "superior" for ol' superhero formula.

I'd be interested if Bendis took a few issues off of NA just to see if the sales held up without him. And to see someone else handle the team. Because nearly everyone else who uses them in other books seems to do better with them. JMS, Heinberg, anyone. But Bendis has considerable namepower, and while Marvel likes to deny it, yet at the same time capitilize on it, a writer's name is what can sell a lot of books, regardless of what it is.

Jeph Loeb, before he switched to Marvel, had the best example of this from a WIZARD interview he did with Geoff Johns, Mark Millar, and Bendis: "You're telling me that if you had Millar writing AQUAMAN with Andy Kubert on art, it wouldn't be a Top Ten book? It has nothing to do with the characters." or words to that effect.

 

[Darthphere]

I agree with Loeb.