Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

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I agree Restless is amazingly dream like. I was so disappointed with Inception because it wasnt up to par. I showed Restless to my gf at the time after we left Inception and she agreed despite never seeing Buffy before.

And yeah Angel is my personal favorite between the two shows. Its darker and more straight to the point, less coming of agey. Also the way Buffy ends, there's a loose plot that is concluded in the next season of Angel. So youre gonna wanna watch.
 
There really wasn't any loose plot [BLACKOUT]they just retconed a death in Angel[/BLACKOUT]
 
I finished season five today and I loved it. Might be my favorite finale beside Season Two. Damn, the latter half of this season Whedon just liked to rip your soul out with sadness. "The Body" is probably one of the best episodes. It's not something I'd go and rewatch anytime soon due to its nature, but damn it if it wasn't great directing and writing. This episode pretty much shows Whedon has as much as a knack for directing as writing. It was nice to see a medium so writer's driven be just as involved in terms of directing.

"Restless" was great because it wasn't your typical "Let's do some crazy ****" finale. It was a nice respite considering Adam wasn't even the main villain for the entire season, so a finale that wasn't off the wall exciting was appropriate. But it was just as interesting as an exciting finale would be otherwise.

Whedon really captured the bizarre world of dreams while still being thematic. I mean the man with the cheese on his head. Dah fuq? Genius though.

And my favorite episode thus far is either "The Zeppo" or Spike's first episode. Xander being my favorite character and all, "The Zeppo" is such a genius episode about him.

I gotta say, Spike's arc if pretty damn convincing and highly entertaining. He's one of my favorite things about the show and his change is part of it. At first I was worried that he'd be "neutered" to appear just for the sake of it, but it actually makes sense and is endearing to him as a vampire while his acts are of humanity without a soul. He's more interesting than Angel for me anyway.

If we're talking about spin-off's I'd be perfectly content with a Xander/Giles/Spike road trip television series or tv movie. Just three of my favorite Buffy characters riding along the country having to solve **** while bickering is entertaining to me.

And I'd like to get to Angel when I have time. But first I want to finish Buffy then get onto Firefly.
Your thoughts on the latter half of S5 and "The Body" in particular basically mirror my own. I loved it, thought it was brilliant, but man I can never bring myself to re-watch that episode. It's just so brutal.

And I think most of the fandom seems to agree with you on Spike vs. Angel. I actually personally prefer Angel, but that's because I felt like the writing of Spike in the later seasons felt like pandering to the fandom to me, so it always rubbed me the wrong way. That said, I'm not much of a "shipper" with this show, so I preferred Buffy when she was single. That goes for Spike and Angel, too. I enjoyed them all as individuals but never shipped them with each other.

That said, I think if you were to watch Angel the series, you'd develop a MUCH better appreciation for Angel as a character because, well, he just became a better character out of necessity to carry his own show. I agree based on his appearances on Buffy, he wasn't really anything special. But I do agree with what people are saying here about Angel the series. It DOES rival Buffy in quality in a big way, and even surpasses it in some aspects. For example, I think the main arc of S2-S4 of Angel is probably the most ambitious and epic arc any Whedon show has ever done. The character arc of Wesley on that show is also probably the best in the Whedonverse.

Ultimately, what I tell people about Angel is that it's a wholly different show - it's not a coming of age story, because its main character is 250-ish years-old with centuries of horrible, horrible baggage. It's more of a redemption saga with A LOT of existential exploration and tragedy, and ultimately just feels like a more "mature" show than Buffy, which makes perfect sense given the differences between the two protagonists. Angel just feels a bit more Shakespearian to me. And when I compare the two shows, I always say Buffy has the stronger and more memorable individual episodes, while Angel has the better arcs. Ultimately, I prefer Buffy because those individual episodes are pure genius to me (and yes, despite the fact that I hate Xander, I still share your love of "The Zeppo"), so I can easily pick an episode to re-watch on a regular basis, and I guess I can relate to Buffy better, having been a teenage girl once myself. But Angel definitely stands on its own as a great series. If you do watch it though, just know you have to power through the very lackluster 1st season to get to the good stuff. The show had to find its own identity first, and that took a little while. But once it does, it's great, and the final season of that show>>>>>>>the final season of Buffy.

Also, as I'm sure you've already noticed, it crosses over with Buffy a lot, so there's that.
 
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Your thoughts on the latter half of S5 and "The Body" in particular basically mirror my own. I loved it, thought it was brilliant, but man I can never bring myself to re-watch that episode. It's just so brutal.

And I think most of the fandom seems to agree with you on Spike vs. Angel. I actually personally prefer Angel, but that's because I felt like the writing of Spike in the later seasons felt like pandering to the fandom to me, so it always rubbed me the wrong way. That said, I'm not much of a "shipper" with this show, so I preferred Buffy when she was single. That goes for Spike and Angel, too. I enjoyed them all as individuals but never shipped them with each other.

That said, I think if you were to watch Angel the series, you'd develop a MUCH better appreciation for Angel as a character because, well, he just became a better character out of necessity to carry his own show. I agree based on his appearances on Buffy, he wasn't really anything special. But I do agree with what people are saying here about Angel the series. It DOES rival Buffy in quality in a big way, and even surpasses it in some aspects. For example, I think the main arc of S2-S4 of Angel is probably the most ambitious and epic arc any Whedon show has ever done. The character arc of Wesley on that show is also probably the best in the Whedonverse.

Ultimately, what I tell people about Angel is that it's a wholly different show - it's not a coming of age story, because its main character is 250-ish years-old with centuries of horrible, horrible baggage. It's more of a redemption saga with A LOT of existential exploration and tragedy, and ultimately just feels like a more "mature" show than Buffy, which makes perfect sense given the differences between the two protagonists. Angel just feels a bit more Shakespearian to me. And when I compare the two shows, I always say Buffy has the stronger and more memorable individual episodes, while Angel has the better arcs. Ultimately, I prefer Buffy because those individual episodes are pure genius to me (and yes, despite the fact that I hate Xander, I still share your love of "The Zeppo"), so I can easily pick an episode to re-watch on a regular basis, and I guess I can relate to Buffy better, having been a teenage girl once myself. But Angel definitely stands on its own as a great series. If you do watch it though, just know you have to power through the very lackluster 1st season to get to the good stuff. The show had to find its own identity first, and that took a little while. But once it does, it's great, and the final season of that show>>>>>>>the final season of Buffy.

Also, as I'm sure you've already noticed, it crosses over with Buffy a lot, so there's that.

Yeah I noticed it did a bit, especially in S5 when Drucilla comes back.

And I do prefer Buffy single myself. Less of her getting over **** for me which takes a while. It's well written but I like Buffy with less baggage and being with the Scoobies. Plus Riley was a so-so character.

No doubt when I watch Angel, I'll gain more of an appreciation for him since he carries his own show and with Whedon at the helm. Wesley too I'm more curious to see since I loved his part in S3.

Dammit, I just got into House of Cards and I just want to watch all of these show in a short amount of time but that won't happen. It's gonna have to be gradual for me unfortunately. :csad:

But I just started S6 of Buffy today. I liked seeing a world without Buffy for a couple episodes. Plus the end of episode two between her and Dawn was great. I am very much looking forward to "Once More With Feeling."
 
Yeah Wesley is my favorite Whedonverse character for sure. If you're only watching Buffy, where do you think Faith is at this point? Her story is continued on Angel and is sorta necessary to see imo
 
Really? That's quite bold. I guess I'll need to check it out for myself eventually.

Yes. The characters are taken to places, I didn't think they'd dare go. Wesley especially undergoes one of the most interesting character arc
 
Yeah I noticed it did a bit, especially in S5 when Drucilla comes back.

And I do prefer Buffy single myself. Less of her getting over **** for me which takes a while. It's well written but I like Buffy with less baggage and being with the Scoobies. Plus Riley was a so-so character.

No doubt when I watch Angel, I'll gain more of an appreciation for him since he carries his own show and with Whedon at the helm. Wesley too I'm more curious to see since I loved his part in S3.
Ha, I think "so-so" is a very...kind descriptor for Riley, lol. As for Wes, I won't say much except that the Wesley at the end of Angel is basically unrecognizable from the one you know now.

Dammit, I just got into House of Cards and I just want to watch all of these show in a short amount of time but that won't happen. It's gonna have to be gradual for me unfortunately. :csad:
Don't worry, I know the feeling. There are still so many shows I need to catch up on. Hell, I've been meaning to watch Orphan Black for 6 months and just got around to it yesterday. The TV landscape being such an embarrassment of riches these days is such a blessing and a curse, lol.

But I just started S6 of Buffy today. I liked seeing a world without Buffy for a couple episodes. Plus the end of episode two between her and Dawn was great. I am very much looking forward to "Once More With Feeling."
As you should be. :woot: The episode after it, "Tabula Rasa" is also kind of a classic, too. Two episodes of pure gold if you ask me.

Yeah Wesley is my favorite Whedonverse character for sure. If you're only watching Buffy, where do you think Faith is at this point? Her story is continued on Angel and is sorta necessary to see imo
Yeah, Faith's journey on Angel is pretty great, too.
 
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Only thing i don't like with Angel is how he will more easily help redeem women than men, Lindsay was very similar to Faith in that regard, yet he was nowhere treated in the same way.
 
I loved Lindsay. What a great character. Its too bad he just faded away. Lilah was also amazing
 
Yeah, of the two, I preferred Lilah more, so if we had to keep only one around for the duration I was glad it was her, but they were both great characters.
 
Only thing i don't like with Angel is how he will more easily help redeem women than men, Lindsay was very similar to Faith in that regard, yet he was nowhere treated in the same way.

The thing with Lindsay was, he didn't want redemption or to change. Angel gave him like 2 shots at changing his ways, and in both times he reverted back to his old ways of wanting power.
 
Ha, I think "so-so" is a very...kind descriptor for Riley, lol. As for Wes, I won't say much except that the Wesley at the end of Angel is basically unrecognizable from the one you know now.

Don't worry, I know the feeling. There are still so many shows I need to catch up on. Hell, I've been meaning to watch Orphan Black for 6 months and just got around to it yesterday. The TV landscape being such an embarrassment of riches these days is such a blessing and a curse, lol.

As you should be. :woot: The episode after it, "Tabula Rasa" is also kind of a classic, too. Two episodes of pure gold if you ask me.


Yeah, Faith's journey on Angel is pretty great, too.

Damn... I am tempted to go right into Angel now. But three shows simultaneously is too much. :woot:

I think for me it's a combination of me discovering all of these great shows that have been around for a while and the golden age of television we're in now. I was too young when Buffy was first airing (I would have been 5 in 1997 which is weird to think about since I remember way back then) but I would have loved to grow up with Buffy had I been in high school at the show's beginning.
 
Damn... I am tempted to go right into Angel now. But three shows simultaneously is too much. :woot:

I think for me it's a combination of me discovering all of these great shows that have been around for a while and the golden age of television we're in now. I was too young when Buffy was first airing (I would have been 5 in 1997 which is weird to think about since I remember way back then) but I would have loved to grow up with Buffy had I been in high school at the show's beginning.
Yeah I missed Buffy/Angel when they were airing, too, despite being roughly the age of their primary target audience (I was 12 when it premiered, 18/19 when it ended). I dunno, they just seemed so silly to me at the time (this coming from a girl who LOVED Lois & Clark, haha). I was kind of forced by my friends to watch them later in college because I was kind of like the TV expert in the group and they were like, "you can't be a real TV Guru without Buffy." And yeah, they had me there. I couldn't believe how utterly wrong I was about these shows once I finally did watch them as an adult. But then, at the same time, I probably wouldn't have appreciated the brilliance of what the writers were doing when I was kid, either, so maybe it was for the best. I just wish I'd been able to experience it all with the fandom when it was happening because that would have been a trip.

As for Angel...give into temptation. When you find the time of course. :cwink:
 
My favorite Seasons were 2, 3, and 4 of Buffy. I watched the show when they aired on TV and have all of the seasons on DVD. Buffy was the last time I had maintained a lot of interest in a Whedon show.
 
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I love Lindsay and Lilah. S2 was their Boris and Natasha season, after that Lilah went through a great arc. At the end of S5's "destiny" i ran around the room screaming in excitement.

I started with Graduation Day and S4 of Buffy/season1 of Angel. It was almost a fresh start. Season 4 is really the middle season in a lot of ways. It moves from the high school era to the post high school era very smartly. Its the season of change and for that reason it remains a personal fav.
Same can be said for Angel S3. It was the middle part of the Hyperion hotel era and was also big on change. The first half is a lot more like season 2 where the second half is more like season 4. Which is the case in a lot of shows but this one was the epitome of that.
 
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Lilah is one of my favorites on Angel. Probably in the whole buffyverse. Romanov should be everywhere. Sad that she hasn't done a lot.
 
Yeah I missed Buffy/Angel when they were airing, too, despite being roughly the age of their primary target audience (I was 12 when it premiered, 18/19 when it ended). I dunno, they just seemed so silly to me at the time (this coming from a girl who LOVED Lois & Clark, haha). I was kind of forced by my friends to watch them later in college because I was kind of like the TV expert in the group and they were like, "you can't be a real TV Guru without Buffy." And yeah, they had me there. I couldn't believe how utterly wrong I was about these shows once I finally did watch them as an adult. But then, at the same time, I probably wouldn't have appreciated the brilliance of what the writers were doing when I was kid, either, so maybe it was for the best. I just wish I'd been able to experience it all with the fandom when it was happening because that would have been a trip.

As for Angel...give into temptation. When you find the time of course. :cwink:

Yeah, I always felt the same about both shows myself. I kind of dismissed them as silly too. And the thing is, when I'm still watching Buffy, I get to a certain episode where I sigh and think, "Oh boy, it's gonna be one of these episodes" yet it completely subverts and exceeds my expectations of what actually happens. Just when you think it will be filler it's anything but. This can be said the most for the first two seasons. You knew this was something different when the dummy episode in season one turned out to be more amazing than it lead itself onto be.

And I've started S6 of Buffy. It's nice seeing Buffy back. I'm not a huge fan of The Trio though. Talk about grating at times. But the next episode is, "Once More With Feeling" so I am excited about that. :woot:

And I started Angel today.... I'm on episode 12. :awesome: The last one actually had Jeremy Renner in it which was a great episode in itself.

Once I got over the tonal shift from Buffy to Angel, I love it for what it is. A darker, edgier detective based Whedon show with Buffy characters? Yes please.

And Doyle... I hardly knew thee. :csad: That episode killed me. But at least Wesley has made up for it. His inclusion was brilliant. Plus I'm loving Cordelia's ever evolving character.
 
Yeah, I always felt the same about both shows myself. I kind of dismissed them as silly too. And the thing is, when I'm still watching Buffy, I get to a certain episode where I sigh and think, "Oh boy, it's gonna be one of these episodes" yet it completely subverts and exceeds my expectations of what actually happens. Just when you think it will be filler it's anything but. This can be said the most for the first two seasons. You knew this was something different when the dummy episode in season one turned out to be more amazing than it lead itself onto be.

And I've started S6 of Buffy. It's nice seeing Buffy back. I'm not a huge fan of The Trio though. Talk about grating at times. But the next episode is, "Once More With Feeling" so I am excited about that. :woot:

And I started Angel today.... I'm on episode 12. :awesome: The last one actually had Jeremy Renner in it which was a great episode in itself.

Once I got over the tonal shift from Buffy to Angel, I love it for what it is. A darker, edgier detective based Whedon show with Buffy characters? Yes please.

And Doyle... I hardly knew thee. :csad: That episode killed me. But at least Wesley has made up for it. His inclusion was brilliant. Plus I'm loving Cordelia's ever evolving character.

Hold on to your breeches. S6 of Buffy is about as dark and depressing as it gets. The **** finally caught up to the Scooby gang, and Whedon made it his mission to emotionally destroy those characters and the viewers.
 
I must be the only person who loved The Trio.

You talkin about those three dumbasses who fancied themselves badguys in season 6? Ill give em this, they make me want to punch a wall. That's gotta count for something.
 
I must be the only person who loved The Trio.
They could have been alright if not for Jonathan. I HATED him. One of the worst character on the show and I hated how he got an expanded role in season 6. I loved Warren and liked Andrew

And I started Angel today.... I'm on episode 12. :awesome: The last one actually had Jeremy Renner in it which was a great episode in itself.

Once I got over the tonal shift from Buffy to Angel, I love it for what it is. A darker, edgier detective based Whedon show with Buffy characters? Yes please.

And Doyle... I hardly knew thee. :csad: That episode killed me. But at least Wesley has made up for it. His inclusion was brilliant. Plus I'm loving Cordelia's ever evolving character.
Nice. Season 1 is definetly the weakest of the four. If you are enjoying it now, you'll love whats to come down the line. It gets so much better in season 2 and is downright amazing in season 3. Cordelia gets some much needed character growth and its cool to watch her transformation when thinking about where she came from in Buffy
 
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I always liked Johnathan. He was the only one in the trio who had a connection to the scoobies and probably should've felt scorned by them. Warren kinda came outta nowhere in season 5 with his robot gf but I liked him as a villain honestly. I loved that whole arc really. A lot more than Adam or The First
 
You talkin about those three dumbasses who fancied themselves badguys in season 6? Ill give em this, they make me want to punch a wall. That's gotta count for something.
One of them was an actual bad guy, all the s*** he did during the season made him deserve that spot.
They could have been alright if not for Jonathan. I HATED him. One of the worst character on the show and I hated how he got an expanded role in season 6. I loved Warren and liked Andrew
Really? Jonathan was the one i liked the most. Dumbass Andrew didn't deserve any kind of redemption.
A lot more than Adam or The First

Why do most fans not like the First that much? I think that it was a very interesting idea and deserved to be the final villain of the series
 
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