Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Lord]

Agreed, Joss isn't perfect, but i don't see how anone can top Buffy's arc.

Thinking about that, another possibility for a big bad could be an inter-dimension hell-like being, pretty much like the Cenobites from Hellraiser.

 

[SV Fan]

Yeah, Joss is a mixed bag, even if his ego is that of one who only brings perfect ideas. As much as i want more buffyverse like Fray, i'm not sure he wouldn't disapoint in any way, from the comics i see he has lost much motivation and doesn't care all that much for the Buffyverse now.

I just get the feeling at times with Whedon that he went to some artsy fartsy school and tries to incorporate stuff he learned there into some episodes. It's generally episodes he tries to be creative that I find are annoying(the episode nobody talks, there was one weird episode at the end of the season where they all have weird dreams(maybe my pick for worst episode of any show I have ever seen in my lifetime), the singing episode, etc)

Beyond that the whole Willow being a witch storyarc sucked. What's even worse is I am a pervert and I wasn't remotely turned on with her lesbian arc and I ain't hard to please when it comes to the lesbians

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I think youre watching the show for wrong reasons. Willows lesbian story wasnt designed to turn on little immature boys.

You obviously think art is 'fartsy'. Restless is 1000% better than mindless crap like Inception, which gets all the idiotic praise despite it being a pathetic Matrix wannabe. Talk about fartsy. At least Restless was actually dream like. And important reflections on the characters, how they see themselves and others. where they've been, where they're going.

Hush is also deeper than just 'people lose their voices' if you actually paid attention. Show me another modern day film maker with that much creativity and execution. Again don't point to Nolan because you'll just be getting laughs from me.

 

[venom892]

I just get the feeling at times with Whedon that he went to some artsy fartsy school and tries to incorporate stuff he learned there into some episodes. It's generally episodes he tries to be creative that I find are annoying(the episode nobody talks, there was one weird episode at the end of the season where they all have weird dreams(maybe my pick for worst episode of any show I have ever seen in my lifetime), the singing episode, etc)

Beyond that the whole Willow being a witch storyarc sucked. What's even worse is I am a pervert and I wasn't remotely turned on with her lesbian arc and I ain't hard to please when it comes to the lesbians

Are you implying that lesbian characters should only be around to titillate you? Also you seem to be in the minority when it comes to episodes you find annoying. Season six was the weakest, but once more with feeling was a great exploration of what the characters were feeling at the time. Hush is almost universally praised. I've never say Buffy or Angel are perfect, but the episodes you point out are in no way weak.

 

[SV Fan]

At least Restless was actually dream like. And important reflections on the characters, how they see themselves and others. where they've been, where they're going.

That dream episode to me just felt like somebody who was a wee bit to self involved in how great and "creative" he can be. It seemed like he used every thing he learned in writing 101 in film school and mashed it all to create one big steaming pile of turd that left me bored out of my mind. As I said, it was probably the worst 42 minutes of TV I ever saw in my life and I mean that literally

Are you implying that lesbian characters should only be around to titillate you? Also you seem to be in the minority when it comes to episodes you find annoying. Season six was the weakest, but once more with feeling was a great exploration of what the characters were feeling at the time. Hush is almost universally praised. I've never say Buffy or Angel are perfect, but the episodes you point out are in no way weak.

The episode they don't talk or the singing episode, while nowhere near as bad as the lucid dream episode, just felt like trying to be creative for the sake of being creative.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

You must not watch much tv. What do you prefer? And what exactly was used from the writing 101 basics in that episode? I think you kind of breeze through these episodes, not caring if there is a subtext because it's too artsy for you to care. When in fact there is very deep subtext going on throughout these episodes.

 

[Lord]

I could see a case for Restless, it's certainly not for everybody, but the other episodes were as entertaining as they were well done.

Yeah, Joss can fail on some themes, like Willow's witchcraft is drugs or Adam's storyline, but he still gives some great moments. If he did a new show, i think it would probably not be as good, you can see that from how Seasons 6 and 7 start to get weak, or from the comic continuation, it's just like if Paul Dini and Bruce Timm tried to do new DC animated series material, i fear that the result will only end up in disapointment.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

That dream episode to me just felt like somebody who was a wee bit to self involved in how great and "creative" he can be. It seemed like he used every thing he learned in writing 101 in film school and mashed it all to create one big steaming pile of turd that left me bored out of my mind. As I said, it was probably the worst 42 minutes of TV I ever saw in my life and I mean that literally



The episode they don't talk or the singing episode, while nowhere near as bad as the lucid dream episode, just felt like trying to be creative for the sake of being creative.

But you don't understand how actually dream-like the episode was? Very unique, very different than the pointless Matrix-ness of Inception. And you clearly don't get how the things they are dreaming about reflect what's happening in their lives and how their personality deals with these issue.

At least its creative even if its for creative sake, more than other things on tv

 

[SV Fan]

Yeah, Joss can fail on some themes, like Willow's witchcraft is drugs or Adam's storyline

I actually liked Season 4(well with the exception of one episode. lol) and didn't mind Adam

you can see that from how Seasons 6 and 7 start to get weak

I thought the Trio was great, pure comedy gold all that being said the whole witch stuff really dragged down later seasons

But you don't understand how actually dream-like the episode was?

I fully understand the dreams were supposed to be the inner feelings of the characters, but as I say way to artsy "look at me ain't I creative" fartsy for my tastes

 

[Lord]

I actually liked Season 4(well with the exception of one episode. lol) and didn't mind Adam

I allways found Adam to look like a 14 years old's monster fantasy, the type of stuff i would expect from 90s comics. And even the writting behind him and the storyline had much more potencial, hell Hunter X Hunter had the same arc for one of the villains, in this case it was the Ant King, and it was infinitelly better handled, rare to see a villain that well developed.

I thought the Trio was great, pure comedy gold all that being said the whole witch stuff really dragged down later seasons

I enjoyed the trio too, but the season was kinda weak.

 

[SV Fan]

I allways found Adam to look like a 14 years old's monster fantasy, the type of stuff i would expect from 90s comics. And even the writting behind him and the storyline had much more potencial, hell Hunter X Hunter had the same arc for one of the villains, in this case it was the Ant King, and it was infinitelly better handled, rare to see a villain that well developed.

I won't lie I am a fan of one dimensional mustache twirling bad guys. While not really mustache twirling Adam was very one dimensional so I can see why people may not have liked him like I did

I enjoyed the trio too, but the season was kinda weak.

I think the Trio made up for alot of the weaker points of Season 6 for me. I just thought the whole idea was great(3 geeks in their parents basement plotting to destroy the world), I just wish they would have made them the "big bad" in the season closer having some big plan to destroy the universe instead finishing off their story a few episodes before the season closer and going the "dark" witch route.

 

[Lord]

Anyone going to buy the upcoming Season 10 comics?

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I have only season "8"...not even all of it. I want to read more...the art is just a big turn off.

 

[Lord]

The plot itself also gets worse, the one in Volume 7 spawned a lot of controversy.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I know it's written by the same people but...I just can't consider anything off-screen as canon. I like the idea of Gwen and Connor and people returning...and Faith working as a hitman to Giles' Watcher's Council. But... I'd also like to think Angel and everyone died at the end of Not Fade Away. Or fought for an eternity.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I just get the feeling at times with Whedon that he went to some artsy fartsy school and tries to incorporate stuff he learned there into some episodes. It's generally episodes he tries to be creative that I find are annoying(the episode nobody talks, there was one weird episode at the end of the season where they all have weird dreams(maybe my pick for worst episode of any show I have ever seen in my lifetime), the singing episode, etc)

Beyond that the whole Willow being a witch storyarc sucked. What's even worse is I am a pervert and I wasn't remotely turned on with her lesbian arc and I ain't hard to please when it comes to the lesbians

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I've always wanted to see an angelic being in the buffyverse. If they ever do another show, that's what I'd like to see. At least for one episode. Some kind of angelic warrior.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I wish we had gotten the animated show since that was suppose to be in canon. And we would've gottento see all that Dawns creation would've changed.

 

[jaymes_e06]

^Agreed. It was so awesome looking.
[YT]mnUvZP7-5LM[/YT]

 

[Lord]

Wasn't it going to be a different take with possibly a changed story? I'm not so sure it was going to be canon. Either way i would have loved to see it, the Sabrina animated series that spawned from the tv show was very good from what i remember

 

[Havok83]

I won't lie I am a fan of one dimensional mustache twirling bad guys. While not really mustache twirling Adam was very one dimensional so I can see why people may not have liked him like I did



I think the Trio made up for alot of the weaker points of Season 6 for me. I just thought the whole idea was great(3 geeks in their parents basement plotting to destroy the world), I just wish they would have made them the "big bad" in the season closer having some big plan to destroy the universe instead finishing off their story a few episodes before the season closer and going the "dark" witch route.

Dark Willow made for a much more interesting villian than those stupid nerds did.

 

[Lord]

They got some interesting development, Warren's descent to evil was better handled than Willow's

 

[Havok83]

Warren was the only interesting one of the three. Andrew was annoying and Jonathan was repulsive. Overall though they were LAME as the main villians especially since they succeeded the fantastic Glory in that role. Talk about a major downgrade

 

[Lord]

Wasn't that big of a fan of Glory, for me the best ones were Angelus and the Mayor. First Evil was an interesting idea and the series finale was almost perfect. I liked the Master, but they didn't get to delve more into his character due to the short amount of episodes and having to keep his past a mystery.

Not sure why you say Jonathan was repulsive, he was the most sane member or the trio, and i was a little sad by his death, he deserved his spot in the scooby or slayer gang that Andrew.

When it comes to the big bad i guess i would rate:

Angelus > Mayor > Andrew > Glory > Dark Willow = the First = Master > Trio > Adam

 

[Havok83]

Jonathan was the worse. I hated his character. I forgot he was even killed off but that happened way too late in the series as he shouldnt have been utilized as much as he was. Really, he's one of my least favorite in the entire Buffyverse.

If i had to rank Big Bads from Favorite to Least, it would go like this for me

Glory
Mayor
First Evil
Dark Willow
Angelus
Master
Adam

I dont even consider the Trio to be Big Bads, but if they were ranked, they'd be at the bottom

Oh and this may be an unpopular opinion but I hated Tara and wasnt upset when they killed her off. She also lasted too long as I didnt think she'd be around past a few episodes of season 5