Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Hush]

Pete Campbell is basically a grown up version of Connor, Kartheiser from what I have seen is not a very multi-dimensional actor. I think that Connor had such potential and was just wasted in the show, I also never understood what his power set was.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He's got the same basic powers as vampires and Slayers. Super-strong, more coordinated, better reflexes, probably a bit faster. He also trained extensively in the worst possible conditions. Which, honestly, makes me wonder why the hell Angel always kicked his ass so easily. You'd think Connor would've been even more hardcore than Angel, but he wound up with Worf syndrome instead--people talked him up all the time, but in practice, he got his ass beat more often than not.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Angel has 200+ years of fighting under his belt. Both with and without a soul... Plus the number of years he spent in that hell dimension after Buffy defeated him in the season 2 finale. I mean sure, Connor was raised in a horrible place, but he only spent about 16 years there.

Also, I always thought although Angel had his soul, he still had the same urges Angelus had... So a portion of his will power, or strength was used to keep Angelus at bay. Perhaps when he fights, and he has no reason to hold Angelus back, he's that more powerful.

That's the way I saw it anyway. As powerful as Connor was, he wasn't very disciplined. He let his emotions get the better of him during fights countless times. So let's say he is more powerful than Angel. Angel having more experience in both battles and manipulation could exploit Connor's weaknesses and easily defeat him.

Maybe I'm over thinking this, but that's the way I've always seen things.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

interesting analysis of Angel having Angelus' desires because a lot of people give Angel the Jekyll/Hyde thing because Spike is so similar with a soul, but I always thought people weren't looking at Angel the right way. He was still the same twisted person just fighting his inner evil. And he was good at it

 

[Charlie Boy]

I don't know... I see Spike and Angel being on two opposite ends of the soul spectrum. People have written papers on them, so I'm not gonna dive into that whole thing, but what I will say is that they were both very different as vampires, and thus, very different as vampires with souls.

Angelus is just a monster. Evil incarnate. Spike, on the other hand was basically his human self, uninhibited and blood thirsty. He did what he wanted because he felt like it at the time. Angelus reveled in others pain and anguish. Spike gaining his soul didn't really change him much... Ya know, after the whole going mad thing.

 

[Young Superman]

Faith was/is awesome.

 

[Hush]

Angel has 200+ years of fighting under his belt. Both with and without a soul... Plus the number of years he spent in that hell dimension after Buffy defeated him in the season 2 finale. I mean sure, Connor was raised in a horrible place, but he only spent about 16 years there.

Also, I always thought although Angel had his soul, he still had the same urges Angelus had... So a portion of his will power, or strength was used to keep Angelus at bay. Perhaps when he fights, and he has no reason to hold Angelus back, he's that more powerful.

That's the way I saw it anyway. As powerful as Connor was, he wasn't very disciplined. He let his emotions get the better of him during fights countless times. So let's say he is more powerful than Angel. Angel having more experience in both battles and manipulation could exploit Connor's weaknesses and easily defeat him.

Maybe I'm over thinking this, but that's the way I've always seen things.

I don't know... I see Spike and Angel being on two opposite ends of the soul spectrum. People have written papers on them, so I'm not gonna dive into that whole thing, but what I will say is that they were both very different as vampires, and thus, very different as vampires with souls.

Angelus is just a monster. Evil incarnate. Spike, on the other hand was basically his human self, uninhibited and blood thirsty. He did what he wanted because he felt like it at the time. Angelus reveled in others pain and anguish. Spike gaining his soul didn't really change him much... Ya know, after the whole going mad thing.

DAMN Chuck, look at the big brain on you!!

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well I finished season 4.

Connor is yeah... not a very well realized character. And I think the problem was Kartheizer. I got where the writing came from but he just wasn't well cast. I'm glad he got a happy ending though. And how he seems to be out of the way.

And I get what you mean about Cordelia. The pregnancy thing really threw a wrench in things. Though I can't blame her of course. But season 4 started out very strong, loved the whole beginnings of The Beast. Then once you get to Angelus it just seemed to be treading old ground in a way. I loved the inclusion of Faith and Willow, but the latter half of 4 doesn't live up to what could have been. I was surprised to see how significant The Beast played a part in at the beginning of the season. Then Cordelia's thing where she just kind of sat there countering Willow's spells and things was just kind of dumb.

There's of course great character moments in the season to make up for all of this, so it's still enjoyable. Wesley continues to becomes incredibly badass. I think Spin the Bottle was the best episode. And the earliest Beast ones.

Oh, and the whole Jasmine thing... the succession of things leading up to it was very strange. It just seemed out of place even if seeds were planted. It brought things to a halt. Especially the first episode with her was one of the worst ones... because it didn't have much conflict.

The finale was back in top form though.

And now one episode into season 5 and I can tell I'm gonna enjoy it. The cinematography looks a lot more alive. I think in part because the location of Wolfram and Hart has a different lighting scheme. But I love the idea of them owning the LA branch of Wolfram and Hart. Now I'm excited for the return of Spike.

 

[Charlie Boy]

I really enjoyed the Wolfram and Hart set from season 5. It was very open, multilayerd, and it just seemed like there was so much stuff going on in the background.

I was never a fan of Jasmine, but season 5 washes away any bad taste the last half of season 4 left in my mouth.

 

[Hush]

Jasmine is my least liked character in all of buffyverse.

 

[Sawyer]

S4 was awesome.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder how s4/5 would've gone had Charisma not become pregnant. Shame that Joss Whedon had to let it change so much of his story instead of just working around it and ignoring it And using that as a way to say that they ran out of stories for Cordelia was just his lowest moment.

 

[Charlie Boy]

S4 was awesome.

It was, the Jasmine **** was just garbage.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I really loved the Jasmine storyline. I was weird and different, felt like Angel meets the Twilight Zone.

 

[flickchick85]

I really liked the Jasmine arc, too, especially the chance it gave Fred to truly shine. I just loved the hopeless feeling it had, with them (potentially literally) against the world. And like Great Mind(s) said, it did have a bit of a Twilight Zone feel to it, which is always a plus in my eyes.

I also thought all the Faith stuff before it was pretty great.

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

I enjoyed Jasmine, too. It's interesting that she provided the thing that Angel wants the most, but can never have: happiness (even if it wasn't true happiness). I think one of the (thematic) reasons that Angel had to be against Jasmine, is that, for this show, happiness, like the soul, is something that has to be earned.

The only problem I had with Jasmine was the convoluted story that brought her into show. I really hate "everything you thought you knew was wrong - it was all just an elaborate ploy so I can rule the world!" plots. You're just asking for plot holes and mischaracterisations with something like that.

 

[Primal Slayer]

It was just a shame that these two huge events that happened in S4 (sun being blocked out and Jasmines happiness reaching people) never made it's way to Buffy who didn't really live that far away.

 

[flickchick85]

It was just a shame that these two huge events that happened in S4 (sun being blocked out and Jasmines happiness reaching people) never made it's way to Buffy who didn't really live that far away.

Yeah, that part always bugged me. Especially during the sun part, since they at least addressed the idea in the Jasmine arc (saying "we only have another day or so before this spreads to the rest of California" or something like that).

I forgot to mention my other favorite part of S4:

Spoiler

Darla's "return." It's heavily debatable as to whether or not that was even really Darla or just the PTB's wearing her face, but since we never really got to know the "real" human Darla before all kinds of horrible s*** happened to her, I choose to believe that was indeed her true spirit redeemed after her ultimate sacrifice in S3. And even though she wasn't able to get through to Connor and stop him, they at least got to meet just once.

 

[eplo]

Finally decided to give Buffy/Angel a shot. Finished Buffy and am midway through Angel season 3. Well worth the time something about the show had always made me think it wouldn't interest me, not sure why. The show surprised me as unlike most shows it lived up to the hype. While every season had a few boring episodes the overall arcs (except Adam) were very good. Really liked Spike's character and am excited to see him some more in Angel. The only main character that I don't like between both shows was Dawn. She had her moments but her constant screaming/getting attacked every episode was annoying. I'm surprised at the number of people I've noticed various places that don't like Gunn. I don't know if something changes in the last couple seasons but right now he is probably my favorite character on Angel.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yeah, that part always bugged me. Especially during the sun part, since they at least addressed the idea in the Jasmine arc (saying "we only have another day or so before this spreads to the rest of California" or something like that).

I forgot to mention my other favorite part of S4:

Spoiler

Darla's "return." It's heavily debatable as to whether or not that was even really Darla or just the PTB's wearing her face, but since we never really got to know the "real" human Darla before all kinds of horrible s*** happened to her, I choose to believe that was indeed her true spirit redeemed after her ultimate sacrifice in S3. And even though she wasn't able to get through to Connor and stop him, they at least got to meet just once.

Yeah, the sun thing was constantly bugging me. Shouldn't it have effected Buffy in some way because it's you know... the sun?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I loved the Jasmine arc once Jasmine was her own character and not Evil Cordelia. Angel and his group as outsiders trying to stop Jasmine without hurting the people under her power created a really cool dynamic.

As for Angel and Spike, I don't think they're too different at all. For all the talk of how vampirism removes the soul, in practice it seems more like vampirism just removes inhibition and, to some extent, the capacity for empathy. Liam and William the Bloody are two very different men. Liam was strong and outgoing his whole life, but he couldn't handle responsibility and thus was a disappointment to his loved ones, which built up a resentment. Uninhibited, that resentment boils over into a truly powerful hatred of love and joy and all the things he felt were denied him in his empty, unfulfilled existence as a human. William was just a meek ponce who never had the balls to fight for what he wanted. Uninhibited, he finds himself free to finally leave his meekness behind and act on the impulses he always had. Spike is essentially the Spider-Man to William's Peter Parker (with more murder, obviously).

Spike found having a soul so much easier because he was, at his worst, never as bad as Angel. He never had the festering resentment that turned to burning hatred and then to horrified guilt that Angel has. He can remember his time as a soulless sexy badass and continue to channel that even with his soul to prevent him from becoming meek William again. Angel remembers his time as Angelus and is tempted to get back to it, which just makes him even more guilty and terrified. So the Angel persona is always a tightrope walk to hold himself to the responsibility Liam never could've held but without falling into the ways of Angelus again.

Basically, Angelus/Angel is so much more extreme than Spike pre-/post-soul because he's Catholic.

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Basically, Angelus/Angel is so much more extreme than Spike pre-/post-soul because he's Catholic.

No wonder he's so sexually repressed.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I really liked the Jasmine arc, too, especially the chance it gave Fred to truly shine. I just loved the hopeless feeling it had, with them (potentially literally) against the world. And like Great Mind(s) said, it did have a bit of a Twilight Zone feel to it, which is always a plus in my eyes.

I also thought all the Faith stuff before it was pretty great.

Yeah, Shiny Happy People/The Magic Bullet was where I truly fell in love with Fred's character. I mean, I started to like her a lot after Fredless and Billy...but I dunno, there is something about having only one character in the whole world know what you know that creates a strong sense of connection.

I guess it was the same feeling I got for Xander after The Zeppo, of knowing i'd gone on a totally personal character journey with him

As for the Jasmine arc, I think it was the build up (Connor and Cordy, Cordy pregnant) that was the true problem.

I actually really really love that last conversation Jasmine and Angel have in the street after it's all fallen apart.

Spoiler

ANGEL: Jasmine, it's over. You've lost.
JASMINE: I've lost? Do you have any idea what you've done?
ANGEL: What I had to do.
JASMINE: No. No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices. I offered paradise. You chose this!
ANGEL: Because I could. Because that's what you took away from us. Choice.
JASMINE: And look what free will has gotten you.
ANGEL: Hey, I didn't say we were smart. I said it's our right. It's what makes us human.
JASMINE: But you're not human.
ANGEL: Working on it.

---

JASMINE: Why do you hate me so much?
ANGEL: Let's run down the list, huh? Rain of fire, blotting out the sun, enslaving mankind, and, yeah, oh, yeah, hey, you eat people!
JASMINE: Like you never have?
ANGEL: Thousands of people are dead because of what you've done.
JASMINE: And how many will die because of you? I could've stopped it, Angel. All of it. War, disease, poverty. How many precious, beautiful lives would've been saved in a handful of years? Yes, I murdered thousands to save billions. (walks to the edge of the bridge) This world is doomed to drown in its own blood now.
ANGEL: The price was too high, Jasmine. Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing.

So many good lines in there

 

[flickchick85]

^^^^That's a great exchange. Yeah, the build-up to Jasmine was definitely the weak point of S4. Or more specifically, [blackout]"possessed"[/blackout] Cordy. Sadly, I chalk a lot of that up to Charisma's acting. She's great at playing the spoiled brat or snarky reluctant hero, but [blackout]ancient evil?[/blackout] That's pretty far out of her wheelhouse, imo.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

^^^^That's a great exchange. Yeah, the build-up to Jasmine was definitely the weak point of S4. Or more specifically, [blackout]"possessed"[/blackout] Cordy. Sadly, I chalk a lot of that up to Charisma's acting. She's great at playing the spoiled brat or snarky reluctant hero, but [blackout]ancient evil?[/blackout] That's pretty far out of her wheelhouse, imo.

Yeah I agree, she never came across as anything more than just Cordy but a more *****y version.