Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm re-watching Angel. Currently on season 3. I never liked how they set up Cordelia and Angel as this great unrequited love. Mainly because it's so expected--lead man and lead woman on every show always f***ing wind up together because Hollywood is ridiculously unoriginal--but also because they just worked so much better as friends. Their relationship in season 2 was perfect, and then it got all awkward in season 3 when they tried to make them get together. It just didn't fit to me. Also, he already did the soul mate thing with Buffy.

Now, Wesley and Lilah, on the other hand. They were a great couple. I still kind of prefer Wes and Fred, but not by much. I love Wes and Lilah for how twisted and complex their relationship became.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm re-watching Angel. Currently on season 3. I never liked how they set up Cordelia and Angel as this great unrequited love. Mainly because it's so expected--lead man and lead woman on every show always f***ing wind up together because Hollywood is ridiculously unoriginal--but also because they just worked so much better as friends. Their relationship in season 2 was perfect, and then it got all awkward in season 3 when they tried to make them get together. It just didn't fit to me. Also, he already did the soul mate thing with Buffy.

Now, Wesley and Lilah, on the other hand. They were a great couple. I still kind of prefer Wes and Fred, but not by much. I love Wes and Lilah for how twisted and complex their relationship became.

Agreed on all counts. Cordy and Angel's relationship in S2 was perfect. Everything after that with them just felt a little forced to me.

And both of the main Wes pairings totally worked for me, too.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Cordelia and Angel worked best as friends, once they had them get romantic it just didnt work. It would've been like getting Buffy/Xander together.

 

[Charlie Boy]

Buffy and Xander got together in the comics.

I loved Wes and Lilah. I didn't feel like there was any way Wes and Fred could work, not after the events of seasons 3 and 4... But then season 5 happened.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Buffy and Xander got together in the comics.

I loved Wes and Lilah. I didn't feel like there was any way Wes and Fred could work, not after the events of seasons 3 and 4... But then season 5 happened.

When did they get together? Between Buffys experimenting and her/Angel getting it on cosmically, Xander started dating dating Dawn.

 

[Charlie Boy]

I thought they dated after Angel and Buffy's umpteenth tryst.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I wikied it since I couldnt remember and there isn't any mention of them dating. Though I don't know what Joss was thinking letting them hook Dawn/Xander togeter.

 

[flickchick85]

Though I don't know what Joss was thinking letting them hook Dawn/Xander togeter.

Yeah that's just...ew.

 

[Mad Ones]

Xander babysat her...

 

[PyroChamber]

Was it worse than Cordy and Connor?

 

[Primal Slayer]

No, Cordy and Connor still take the cake.

 

[flickchick85]

Was it worse than Cordy and Connor?

Both are pretty squicky if you ask me, but yeah, Cordy/Connor was the worst. But then, they had an excuse. Not sure the context of Xander/Dawn (haven't read it), but unless there's demonic possession involved there too...for shame.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Well they are shame shame shaming in the comics. The writers really let the whole "no budget/restrictions" really get to their head.

 

[Sawyer]

I don't know. I wasn't a fan of the pairing, but I think alot of people let the age difference between Nicholas Brendan and Michelle Trachtenberg (14 years, no joke) color their response to it, whereas the age difference between Xander and Dawn would actually be closer to, like, five years. It's still not great, but.

 

[Charlie Boy]

I wikied it since I couldnt remember and there isn't any mention of them dating. Though I don't know what Joss was thinking letting them hook Dawn/Xander togeter.

My bad, I must've just let my brain cobble that into existence after flipping through old issues/lazily reading reviews of the story arcs.

I don't know. I wasn't a fan of the pairing, but I think alot of people let the age difference between Nicholas Brendan and Michelle Trachtenberg (14 years, no joke) color their response to it, whereas the age difference between Xander and Dawn would actually be closer to, like, five years. It's still not great, but.

Yeah, it's a bit jarring at first, but once you take the actors actual ages out of the equation it simply becomes a bit sketchy as opposed to seriously disgusting.

Well they are shame shame shaming in the comics. The writers really let the whole "no budget/restrictions" really get to their head.

Yeah, didn't they like instantly make Dawn a giant or something... And a centaur? I know I for sure read that... I just don't wanna drag out my comics at 3 a.m. to double check

 

[Havok83]

I'm re-watching Angel. Currently on season 3. I never liked how they set up Cordelia and Angel as this great unrequited love. Mainly because it's so expected--lead man and lead woman on every show always f***ing wind up together because Hollywood is ridiculously unoriginal--but also because they just worked so much better as friends. Their relationship in season 2 was perfect, and then it got all awkward in season 3 when they tried to make them get together. It just didn't fit to me. Also, he already did the soul mate thing with Buffy.

Now, Wesley and Lilah, on the other hand. They were a great couple. I still kind of prefer Wes and Fred, but not by much. I love Wes and Lilah for how twisted and complex their relationship became.

IDA on Angel and Cordy. Man I loved them together and I thought the build up in S3 was great. Its too bad S4 happened and ruined all of that, mainly bc they ruined Cordy.

Really wish we had seen a reaction from the Scooby gang about the two together

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Xander and Dawn was icky at first, but it doesn't bother me anymore. Dawn's, what, like 18 or 19 in season 8? Xander's mid-20s. That's not a big deal, and the significance of that age gap will only diminish over time.

The difference between Xander/Dawn and Cordelia/Connor is that Xander was just Dawn's sister's buddy in high school. Cordelia, on the other hand, is the closest thing Connor ever had to a mother. She literally fed and changed him as a baby. The ick factor is a thousand times worse in their case--or, at least, it would be if it were really Cordelia and not just Jasmine wearing a Cordelia meat-suit.

But, of course, the title for all-time creepiest couple in Buffydom obviously goes to Angel/Buffy. The age difference is astronomically larger, plus, via the flashbacks with Whistler and all that, we know Angel actually falls in love with Buffy when she's like 15 or 16. This is a full-grown man who basically preys on a teenage girl, hanging around her high school, stalking her in her favorite club, etc. I think Buffy technically made it to 18 before they actually had sex, but still, Angel is almost certainly a bit of a pedophile by most modern standards and about 2 steps shy of a statutory rapist.

On an unrelated note: I really hate that "perfect happiness" corresponds pretty much solely to orgasms in Angel's case. You'd think that Connor fully accepting Angel, appreciating everything he's done for him, and accepting and loving him, warts and all, would work for perfect happiness too. There are different kinds of love, and it seems parental love ought to be just as valid as romantic love for making someone perfectly happy.

 

[Sawyer]

It is kind of funny how much the age of the actors ends up painting my view of the characters. You've got people getting squicked out about Xander/Dawn in the comics because of the huge age difference between the actors, and then with Cordelia, she was so Dawson cast on Buffy that it's legitimately impossible to buy her as someone only a few years out of High School by seasons 3 and 4 of Angel. It's like she jumps from late teens/early 20s to being in her early 30s in a matter of seasons.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Xander/Dawn dont freak me out due to the actors ages, or even the characters ages, its the relationship they had with each other and seeing that bloom into a romance just wasnt romantic to me. Xander ended up being like a big brother to Dawn by the end of the series.

 

[PyroChamber]

On an unrelated note: I really hate that "perfect happiness" corresponds pretty much solely to orgasms in Angel's case. You'd think that Connor fully accepting Angel, appreciating everything he's done for him, and accepting and loving him, warts and all, would work for perfect happiness too. There are different kinds of love, and it seems parental love ought to be just as valid as romantic love for making someone perfectly happy.

It wasn't just sex, remember when that actress drugged him and he was Angelus for only a short time?

As far as women go, think it was suppose to mean that only Buffy makes him happy; because he never lost his soul when he was with Nina. Although he probably would have lost it with Cordy.

 

[Primal Slayer]

He was deeply in love with Buffy like he was never before and showing her of course made his soul jump ship.

And I think it never happened with Connor because of everything that happened, there was just to much there to give him that pure moment.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It wasn't just sex, remember when that actress drugged him and he was Angelus for only a short time?

As far as women go, think it was suppose to mean that only Buffy makes him happy; because he never lost his soul when he was with Nina. Although he probably would have lost it with Cordy.

As Wesley noted, the drugging wasn't a genuine loss of Angel's soul. I looked at it more as the drug reducing Angel's inhibitions and defenses. We know from later seasons that Angelus is aware of everything under the surface when Angel's in control, so he took advantage of Angel's being out of it to emerge.

I agree about Nina, though. It was the true love + sex that worked with both Buffy and Cordy (since the scenario he cooked up in his mind worked to remove his soul, it's as valid as actually having sex with Cordelia to me). It was more casual with Nina, so it didn't meet the requirement.

I don't know, maybe it's just Angel's inner man-****e. Liam, Angelus, and Angel all seem to love sex--like, a whole lot. That's one common thread that runs through all his personalities. Maybe he just can't consider his personal happiness perfect without sex.

 

[Mani-Man]

I personally never understood whats the big deal about Angel.
He came off as this typical vampire, nothing really special about him.

As Spike came into the show, i was even more confused why so many held Angel on such a high horse.
The One thing that throws me off the most, is that everybody divides Angel and Angelus, that is just stupid.
If a soul is the only thing that makes the differnce, then he is not as good as people make him out.
He always found excuses and got a free pass, he creeps me out.

Spoiler

I like and will always like Spike more, because Spike didnt try to be somebody else then he was.
He wanted to be a better person, but with/without soul/chip, he was still the same.

 

[Havok83]

I personally never understood whats the big deal about Angel.
He came off as this typical vampire, nothing really special about him.

As Spike came into the show, i was even more confused why so many held Angel on such a high horse.
The One thing that throws me off the most, is that everybody divides Angel and Angelus, that is just stupid.
If a soul is the only thing that makes the differnce, then he is not as good as people make him out.
He always found excuses and got a free pass, he creeps me out.

Spoiler

I like and will always like Spike more, because Spike didnt try to be somebody else then he was.
He wanted to be a better person, but with/without soul/chip, he was still the same.

How was Angel like a typical vampire? When the series began, he was presented as being different bc he was. He had a soul which was unique to him and an important distinction that needed to be made. The typical vampire doesn't act with a conscious nor has remorse, regret or is rational. They are pretty much evil and exist to feed on humans and take pleasure in pain. How exactly did that define Angel?

The only times he was without a soul were in the latter part of season 2 and briefly in S2 of Angel (and I want to say one episode in S4) and yeah he reverted back to how he was pre-soul. But that was only a few episodes over the course of 8 seasons. He's done enough good to overshadow any of that. The entire premise behind the character was redemption for his past sins. How many vamps are out there trying to do good to atone for stuff they've done in the past?

IDA, Spike was sadistic and evil. He only changed bc he was forced to in order to survive by the [BLACKOUT]brain chip [/BLACKOUT]and later when he got a [BLACKOUT]soul[/BLACKOUT], he was noticeably different. In essence, he was just like Angel. The only difference is we saw Spike's change happen in real time on the show whereas, Angel had his happen several decades before the show began with only a few snippets of flashbacks to clue us in

 

[Mani-Man]

How was Angel like a typical vampire? When the series began, he was presented as being different bc he was. He had a soul which was unique to him and an important distinction that needed to be made. The typical vampire doesn't act with a conscious nor has remorse, regret or is rational. They are pretty much evil and exist to feed on humans and take pleasure in pain. How exactly did that define Angel?

The only times he was without a soul were in the latter part of season 2 and briefly in S2 of Angel (and I want to say one episode in S4) and yeah he reverted back to how he was pre-soul. But that was only a few episodes over the course of 8 seasons. He's done enough good to overshadow any of that. The entire premise behind the character was redemption for his past sins. How many vamps are out there trying to do good to atone for stuff they've done in the past?

IDA, Spike was sadistic and evil. He only changed bc he was forced to in order to survive by the [BLACKOUT]brain chip [/BLACKOUT]and later when he got a [BLACKOUT]soul[/BLACKOUT], he was noticeably different. In essence, he was just like Angel. The only difference is we saw Spike's change happen in real time on the show whereas, Angel had his happen several decades before the show began with only a few snippets of flashbacks to clue us in

When you look at him from the buffy universe then yes, angel is unique.
But i never liked brooding characters like him, and nowadays with all the vampire shows etc....he comes of as the prototype vampire, so it takes away some of this unique traits he had as the show first aired.

But does the good he did outweight the bad he does the moment he loses his soul?
It doesnt matter to him the moment this happens, his path of redemption and all this is ultimately useless when he doesnt want to change with every part of him.

Spoiler

That is the difference between him and spike, Spike wanted to change after he fell in love with buffy.
With or without soul, Spike seeked redemption.
He didnt go back to the sick and evil vampire he once was, for him the soul is ultimatley a gift, while for angel its really just a curse.
Its just my opinion however, i know the whole spike or angel thing is still very much alive under the fans.