Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Donnie Darko]

I was into Kennedy/Willow at the start of it, but with each passing episode, it was just like "Okay, this chick is the worst."

I hated Kennedy, but I also hated how Willow's sexual orientation in general was handled. Before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain...

She was in love with Xander. She was in love with Oz. Then Tara came along. She had a special, unique bond with Tara that she had never felt before. She fell in love with Tara. I dig it.

Then, once she's with Tara, and after Tara is gone, it's like "guys? Nope, just gay now, even though I have obviously been in love with men before." I think it would've fit her character a lot better if she was bi (or pan-sexual).

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah, making Willow full on lesbian was not the greatest writing of the character. It was clear she was bisexual and they just hadn't heard of that word I guess.

 

[The Question]

1: I love season six of Buffy. I think it is all around great. It is a bit iffy, or at least potentially iffy, from a political standpoint what with killing off one of the only two queer characters on the show, but from a pure art/narrative standpoint I thought season six was outstanding.

2: The problem with Kennedy was that she was miscast. They wrote her as this cocky young Han Solo-ish character, which is fine and wonderful, but the actress really wasn't able to pull it off. She came off as someone who was trying way to hard to be cool instead of someone who genuinely was cool.

 

[Mad Ones]

I totally agree with both those points.

Regarding Willow's sexual orientation, I thought the show handled it well. Sexuality is complicated and often inconsistent. People's orientations can change like that (absolutely not through things like conversion therapy, however). Maybe it's jarring for some but definitely within the realm of possibility.

And I'm on the side that thinks Wood or Giles should have killed Spike... Buffy's soft spot for him not only put the potentials in danger, but also alienated her from her friends. And it's also kind of annoying that show totally justifies Spike's annoying existence through his sacrifice in the finale.

 

[The Question]

I totally agree with both those points.

Regarding Willow's sexual orientation, I thought the show handled it well. Sexuality is complicated and often inconsistent. People's orientations can change like that (absolutely not through things like conversion therapy, however). Maybe it's jarring for some but definitely within the realm of possibility.

Also, sometimes people who are genuinely bisexual will identify as gay because bisexuality is too alien a concept for them or too difficult a thing to navigate with all of the weird stigmas attached to it.

That being said, bisexuality should be recognized as a thing more often.

And I'm on the side that thinks Wood or Giles should have killed Spike... Buffy's soft spot for him not only put the potentials in danger, but also alienated her from her friends. And it's also kind of annoying that show totally justifies Spike's annoying existence through his sacrifice in the finale.

But that was the whole point. I'm not sure you can criticize the writers for achieving exactly what they set out to do.

 

[Mad Ones]

I can criticize them for setting out to do the wrong things. Buffy was the most alienated during S6 and I thought it worked really well because that arc was concluded in the season finale. S7 should have been about reforging her bonds with the scoobies, especially considering how S6 ended. Buffy once again being alienated from her friends felt like regression.

The tension with the potentials wasn't worth sidetracking Buffy's character.

 

[The Question]

I can criticize them for setting out to do the wrong things. Buffy was the most alienated during S6 and I thought it worked really well because that arc was concluded in the season finale. S7 should have been about reforging her bonds with the scoobies, especially considering how S6 ended. Buffy once again being alienated from her friends felt like regression.

The tension with the potentials wasn't worth sidetracking Buffy's character.

I don't see how it was a sidetrack, and it wasn't just about tension with the potentials. Season 7 was about rebuilding those bonds. Turns out, rebuilding trust and connections with people who you've become alienated from is a long and difficult process which usually comes with a few setbacks. I'm not sure how they could have handled that aspect of the story in another way that wouldn't have come off as too easy.

 

[Mad Ones]

But you know the scene in S7 before the final battle, when the trio recreates the ending from premier? That was meant to show that the scoobies rebuilt their bonds, but most of S7 actually did the opposite. So, instead of what could have been a great moment actually just felt like lip service to the friendship they once had. So in the end it came off too easy anyway.

 

[The Question]

But you know the scene in S7 before the final battle, when the trio recreates the ending from premier? That was meant to show that the scoobies rebuilt their bonds, but most of S7 actually did the opposite. So, instead of what could have been a great moment actually just felt like lip service to the friendship they once had.

I feel exactly the opposite way about that scene. It is a great moment because Season 7 was such a struggle for them. It showed them coming together one last time and touching back on how and why they connected in the first place, despite the struggle they'd gone through in learning to trust each other again after the ****show of emotion that was season six. I think that moment would have had a lot less impact if they were perfectly tight-knit in the episodes leading up to it. Over the course of season seven, we saw them rebuilding their bonds (Willow's invisibility/return thing, the telepathic planning against the Turock-Han, etc.), but the setbacks they had along the way and the fact that it wasn't easy for them at any point made that mean a lot more than if it had been a smooth transition all the way through. Relationships are hard, and people can be pulled in all sorts of directions towards and away from each other while still maintaining a bond that makes it all worth it. Buffy The Vampire Slayer was really good at portraying that experience with sincerity.

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm glad it worked for you and I really like your argument! I still can't ignore that Buffy wasn't there for Xander when he lost his eye (I don't think she ever apologizes, does she?), or how Buffy spent the night before the battle with Spike instead of her friends, or how they kicked her out of her house a couple episodes before - I didn't feel like any of these things were properly resolved. The beginning of S7 had them as a tight group again, but then they drifted near the end, and then all of a sudden it was resolved in time for the finale.

But maybe I'll rewatch it to see if my perspective has changed.

 

[Donnie Darko]

And I'm on the side that thinks Wood or Giles should have killed Spike... Buffy's soft spot for him not only put the potentials in danger, but also alienated her from her friends. And it's also kind of annoying that show totally justifies Spike's annoying existence through his sacrifice in the finale.

But had they killed Spike, it would've altered the course of Angel season five, and I can't allow that.

 

[O'Haire]

I was so damn tired of Spike by the end of Buffy. Thank god they gave him his balls back in season 5 of Angel.

 

[The Question]

I was so damn tired of Spike by the end of Buffy. Thank god they gave him his balls back in season 5 of Angel.

What do you mean by that?

 

[PyroChamber]

I was so damn tired of Spike by the end of Buffy. Thank god they gave him his balls back in season 5 of Angel.

That's why I like the episode Destiny.

Angel: That's why Buffy never loved you, because you weren't me.

Spike: Then I guess she was thinking about you all those times I was putting it to her.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I totally agree with both those points.

Regarding Willow's sexual orientation, I thought the show handled it well. Sexuality is complicated and often inconsistent. People's orientations can change like that (absolutely not through things like conversion therapy, however). Maybe it's jarring for some but definitely within the realm of possibility.

And I'm on the side that thinks Wood or Giles should have killed Spike... Buffy's soft spot for him not only put the potentials in danger, but also alienated her from her friends. And it's also kind of annoying that show totally justifies Spike's annoying existence through his sacrifice in the finale.

Actually in order to keep the potentials alive she had to keep him around it wasn't just because she was all googly eyes for him. He served a purpose in her army. I'm not the biggest fan of Spike or S7 but I still think that everything that happened made logistical sense. The last season was about war how there are casualties and how you loose not only your innocence but can also become clouded when your a leader and make mistakes and have to make sacrifices (Xanders eye).

Willow would not even use her powers for a majority of the season and when she did it backfired. She needed someone strong to protect them. Spike was the lesser of two evils.

But that was the whole point. I'm not sure you can criticize the writers for achieving exactly what they set out to do.

Exactly! We are agreeing on sometihing. This can't be good. :

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

I'm glad it worked for you and I really like your argument! I still can't ignore that Buffy wasn't there for Xander when he lost his eye (I don't think she ever apologizes, does she?), or how Buffy spent the night before the battle with Spike instead of her friends, or how they kicked her out of her house a couple episodes before - I didn't feel like any of these things were properly resolved. The beginning of S7 had them as a tight group again, but then they drifted near the end, and then all of a sudden it was resolved in time for the finale.

But maybe I'll rewatch it to see if my perspective has changed.

I agree, the last episodes felt rushed. They all just had this huge fight, where they kicked Buffy out of her own house, and all of a sudden, she's back and all is forgiven. It reminds me of S3, when they all ganged up on her for running away, but zombies came before they could work it all out. Afterwards, they were all just cool with each other again, like nothing happened. It was deeply unsatisfying.

There are a few more incidents like this, where it just seems like nobody truly gets Buffy (especially Xander, who is an immature bunghole during every argument...or anytime, really). I guess they can't, really, since none of them are the Slayer (and that ties into the idea that the Slayer is, ultimately, a very lonely person), but it gets very frustrating, because it means we have to have unresolved, or not satisfyingly resolved, conflicts.

tl;dr Xander and the Potentials deserved more verbal asskickings from Buffy. They need to be made to grovel!

 

[flickchick85]

There are a few more incidents like this, where it just seems like nobody truly gets Buffy (especially Xander, who is an immature bunghole during every argument...or anytime, really).

It makes me SO happy to see someone else say this. t:

 

[SiegePerilous]

I always find it hard to pick between these two shows, but I think I'd have to give the slight edge to Angel. I think Buffy's peak was from the second half of season 2 to the end of season 5. Once Whedon stepped down as regular showrunner and Marti took his place, the quality of the show took a nosedive. Worse, the characters just became unlikeable as all hell in the last two seasons, plus it had WAY too much of Spike, who I dislike intensely. Angel definitely had some rough spots. but I never disliked any of the characters, so that kept me entertained even during the crappy episodes.

Overall, I'd say the golden years of this mythos were the first five WB years (Seasons 1-5 of Buffy, and Seasons 1-2 of Angel), with the ones during the network split being the dark ages. The final season of Angel rebounded like a mother****er though, and I wish we got at least another season or two of that quality. I even found Spike more tolerable there, though I would have gladly traded him to get Cordelia and Lilah back.

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Hey now, what's with all the Spike hate?! (I secretly agree, though, he became a real drag in the later seasons).

It makes me SO happy to see someone else say this. t:

Lol. And it can never be said enough.

 

[SiegePerilous]

Hey now, what's with all the Spike hate?! (I secretly agree, though, he became a real drag in the later seasons).

Because he sucks

For me, it's stuff like the exchange PyroChamber posted:

Angel: That's why Buffy never loved you, because you weren't me.

Spike: Then I guess she was thinking about you all those times I was putting it to her.

He's just comes across as kind of a turd. He acted remorseful in season 7 for his contributions to Buffy's crippling depression in season 6 (though both he and the show spent more time on whining about how she used him). And yet he's boasting about it here? Does he just feel bad for it when she's around to hear it? And then telling Wood he didn't feel bad about killing his mother and that she never loved him anyway?

It always comes across that the writers really liked him and wanted the audience to like/love him, but the final product had the opposite effect. At least for me.

 

[Doctor Jones]

It makes me SO happy to see someone else say this. t:

Xander 4ever.

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

Because he sucks

Well, he is a vampire. t:

For me, it's stuff like the exchange PyroChamber posted:



He's just comes across as kind of a turd. He acted remorseful in season 7 for his contributions to Buffy's crippling depression in season 6 (though both he and the show spent more time on whining about how she used him). And yet he's boasting about it here? Does he just feel bad for it when she's around to hear it? And then telling Wood he didn't feel bad about killing his mother and that she never loved him anyway?

It always comes across that the writers really liked him and wanted the audience to like/love him, but the final product had the opposite effect. At least for me.

You have to look at context. Spike wasn't boasting about banging Buffy, he was being vulgar to taunt Angel. It's Angel he's trying to hurt. That doesn't mean he's not sorry for fueling Buffy's depression, or that he doesn't respect her.

Now, the thing with Wood is a bit more complex. Spike isn't sorry for killing Nikki, but I don't think that means he was never distraught over what he did to her, or that he's still an unrepentant mass murderer - that would contradict what was established earlier in the season, and what having a soul means in the Buffy mythos. Rather, I think he just divorced himself from all the evil acts he committed as a vampire; he came to realize, in "Lies My Parents Told Me" (7x17), that it wasn't him that did all those awful things (just like it wasn't his mother that said all those awful things to him), it was the demon inside him. He was an insensitive jerk about it to Wood ("I don't give a piss about your mother!"), but then, Wood was trying to kill him.

I can't say if the writers were trying to make the audience love Spike. After all, he was already a very popular character. I do think they were trying to make him fit as a main character AND be as cool as he was in S2, but ended up failing in both.

 

[Mani-Man]

I dont think we need to talk about how bad the pacing of season 7 was.
Pretty much everything in the season should have been given more time.
The Final season should have been 2 seasons, so much was going on that got too little time.

Particular in season 7 i liked spike, because he didnt looked for excuses on who he was and what he had done.
Not like a certain other vampire who gone around and made everyone believe he is basicly two people...when in truth he is one and the same.

I always liked that spike was different from all other vampires.
He feels unique and i enjoyed the hell out of this character.

He constantly acted like a *****e, but that what was all it was.
One of the things i didnt like is how the sidelined Dawns and Spikes friendship...i always liked that and found it really stupid that they didnt gave this more time in season 7.

 

[SiegePerilous]

Well, he is a vampire. t:


You have to look at context. Spike wasn't boasting about banging Buffy, he was being vulgar to taunt Angel. It's Angel he's trying to hurt. That doesn't mean he's not sorry for fueling Buffy's depression, or that he doesn't respect her.

Now, the thing with Wood is a bit more complex. Spike isn't sorry for killing Nikki, but I don't think that means he was never distraught over what he did to her, or that he's still an unrepentant mass murderer - that would contradict what was established earlier in the season, and what having a soul means in the Buffy mythos. Rather, I think he just divorced himself from all the evil acts he committed as a vampire; he came to realize, in "Lies My Parents Told Me" (7x17), that it wasn't him that did all those awful things (just like it wasn't his mother that said all those awful things to him), it was the demon inside him. He was an insensitive jerk about it to Wood ("I don't give a piss about your mother!"), but then, Wood was trying to kill him.

I can't say if the writers were trying to make the audience love Spike. After all, he was already a very popular character. I do think they were trying to make him fit as a main character AND be as cool as he was in S2, but ended up failing in both.

I agree that he wasn't necessarily proud of what he had done to Buffy in season six, but I don't like the ease with which he throws it in Angel's face either. It just kind of skeeves me, especially the crude way in which he put it. The fact that he would so casually refer to his traumatic past with Buffy just to spite Angel makes he doubt how sincere his "good" persona is.

I love Spike as a villain in the early seasons, but you're right that the writers really had to twist the show to force him into the main character role, and it really didn't work. But the audience and networks wanted him, and the writers wanted to use him (they say as such in many DVD extras/commentaries), without putting too much thought into what it would do to the series and characters surrounding him.

Particular in season 7 i liked spike, because he didnt looked for excuses on who he was and what he had done.
Not like a certain other vampire who gone around and made everyone believe he is basicly two people...when in truth he is one and the same.

Actually, the Wood example is Spike making an excuse for his evil by making a distinction between his souled and unsouled incarnations (and yet he also wants credit for his soulless self winning a soul. Make up your mind writers). Angel and Angelus being treated as completely different characters is an oddity that really only occurred in Season 4 of his show, which was completely nonsensical. Both before and after that storyline, Angel regards his soulless crimes as things he personally committed pre-soul that he needs to atone for. And even in season 4, it was more the supporting cast and villains who regarded them as different entities than Angel himself.

Also, see Angel apologizing to Holtz for killing his family even after what Holtz did to Connor. Now compare that to Wood and Spike. Which vampire comes off as the bigger man here?

 

[Wine-N-Cheese]

I don't see why that makes him a "bigger man". Spike isn't making excuses for himself. He just realized and accepted the truth, that he wouldn't have stuck people's heads on railroad spikes had he not had his soul taken away (and note: that isn't the same as saying the vamp is a completely separate entity). He had to accept this, because he already accepted that his mother wouldn't have cruelly lied about not loving him, had she not been a vamp. Angel, of course, never had a moment like this (ignoring S4, as always) so he continues to brood over it. The fact that Angel's soul was a 'curse', as opposed to Spike's 'reward', probably has something to do with their different perspectives, too.

I agree that he wasn't necessarily proud of what he had done to Buffy in season six, but I don't like the ease with which he throws it in Angel's face either. It just kind of skeeves me, especially the crude way in which he put it. The fact that he would so casually refer to his traumatic past with Buffy just to spite Angel makes he doubt how sincere his "good" persona is.

Eh, agree to disagree. Anything can come out in a heated argument. And attempted rape aside, I don't think their casual sex was 'traumatic'. It's not like Buffy would would crumple into a heap at the mention of it. Besides, their last sexual engagement was perfectly healthy, so he would be referring to the S7 sex as well.

Regardless, this one instance shouldn't make you question Spike's sincerity. To do so would be to ignore everything else we've been told about Spike, and souls.