Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[Sithborg]

To be fair, Joss has an uncomfortable tendency to kill off the woman in a romantic pairing. Hell, he seems to have issues with happy relationships, period.

 

[Mani-Man]

To be fair, Joss has an uncomfortable tendency to kill off the woman in a romantic pairing. Hell, he seems to have issues with happy relationships, period.

Yeah, seems to be returning theme when it comes to him.

Spoiler

Just look at the Buffy comics for the most recent example.

They spent two full seasons get Buffy and Spike to a place where breaking up is almost impossible due to the fact that they got rid of all possible problems that could come up.
Boom, season 12 Joss comes back and they broke up with an incredible dumb excuse.

 

[Aximili86]

To be fair, Joss has an uncomfortable tendency to kill off the woman in a romantic pairing. Hell, he seems to have issues with happy relationships, period.

Err, Angel was the half of a romantic pairing killed off. Not permanently, but it's probably valid to bring up.

Book wasn't romantically linked to anyone, but male.

Wash.

Not really sure how Tara & Fred somehow equates to the balance being troublingly stacked against female characters.

Also, it just made total ****ing sense in a storytelling manner. Tara's great, but there's not a whole lot you could have done with her at that point, she's had a decent arc, been through hell at the hands of Glory, become a sort of responsible-parental-figure to Dawn and gone a ways to rehabilitating Willow. Willow's stuff just ending there with the magic problems would have been majorly unsatisfying, you really have to send her bat**** at a certain point, and the clear way of doing that is through losing Tara.

 

[Thome216]

I don't recall the exact wording, but the philosophy was to give them something good, but then quickly take it away again.

Buffy/Angel
Xander/Anya
Willow/Tara

Oh, Tara...

I loved having her on the show, but her passing also gave us one of the best arcs of the series with Dark Willow. She was kick ass and you could actually relate to her pain and even cheer her on - at first.

'Bored now.' I loved that they brought that line back!

Then she went all 'world endy,' and we got a 'villain' that Buffy couldn't beat. I've always loved that, that calm sweet Willow was the only baddie that Buffy couldn't get ahead of!

 

[Sithborg]

Err, Angel was the half of a romantic pairing killed off. Not permanently, but it's probably valid to bring up.

Book wasn't romantically linked to anyone, but male.

Wash.

Not really sure how Tara & Fred somehow equates to the balance being troublingly stacked against female characters.

Also, it just made total ****ing sense in a storytelling manner. Tara's great, but there's not a whole lot you could have done with her at that point, she's had a decent arc, been through hell at the hands of Glory, become a sort of responsible-parental-figure to Dawn and gone a ways to rehabilitating Willow. Willow's stuff just ending there with the magic problems would have been majorly unsatisfying, you really have to send her bat**** at a certain point, and the clear way of doing that is through losing Tara.

It is not just Tara and Fred.

It's Anya. It's Cordelia. It's Shadowcat in Amazing X-men. It's Penny in Dr. Horrible.

 

[Aximili86]

I don't recall the exact wording, but the philosophy was to give them something good, but then quickly take it away again.

Buffy/Angel
Xander/Anya
Willow/Tara

Oh, Tara...

I loved having her on the show, but her passing also gave us one of the best arcs of the series with Dark Willow. She was kick ass and you could actually relate to her pain and even cheer her on - at first.

'Bored now.' I loved that they brought that line back!

Then she went all 'world endy,' and we got a 'villain' that Buffy couldn't beat. I've always loved that, that calm sweet Willow was the only baddie that Buffy couldn't get ahead of!

Exactly, it's just storytelling 101. Things get a lot worse before they get better, major loss eventually breeds new conviction & determination, character growth, etc. You had to get Willow over that addicted-to-magic hump eventually, it wouldn't be dramatic storytelling if she just came around to what Tara was saying willingly and that was that. We got a good balance, Willow making the effort, she and Tara ending up together, and then boom - giant cluster**** and Willow going all Cthulhu on everyone.

You don't build that type of power over like 3 seasons, narratively, and gradually include the slow-burn addiction story, only to never take it to its natural destination. As said earlier, Tara was basically over as a character by that point anyway - great as she was, what's she going to be doing in Season 7, Scoobies'-moral-compass aside? It was tough enough figuring out a place for Xander once **** hits the fan, it'd only be exacerbated having to do the same for Tara.

Sithborg, as for Anya, meh. She was never a "main", and she made it through to the final year, had a pretty huge in-depth arc over multiple seasons. Played her part, there's nothing sexist about offing her. Really no different to Book in Serenity, it's sacrificing someone for other people's character arcs.

Cordelia, sounds like Carpenter wanted out, and there'd been tension between she and Joss over season 4 with all the pregnancy-rewrite thing. Come season 5, she had a baby, she and Joss were at each other's throats the year before, I don't know if the Cordelia thing can even really be considered a "storytelling choice" or part of some Joss pattern. Charisma seemed to have wanted out.

I mean, they threw Doyle & Cordelia together at the end of season 1 then offed Doyle due to Quinn liking the tasty tasty heroin. But...penis, right? Doesn't fit the accusatory accepted narrative, guess that doesn't count.

Look, I get it, all of Joss's personal bull**** that's come to light. It's a major bummer, and personally I'd have a lot of trouble watching anything he puts out in future. But you look at his earlier career, the TV work, this "kills off ze wimminz" line just doesn't fly. If the female character deaths outnumber the male, it's not by much.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Cordelia, sounds like Carpenter wanted out, and there'd been tension between she and Joss over season 4 with all the pregnancy-rewrite thing. Come season 5, she had a baby, she and Joss were at each other's throats the year before, I don't know if the Cordelia thing can even really be considered a "storytelling choice" or part of some Joss pattern. Charisma seemed to have wanted out.

Thats not true, she expected to come back to work untul she found out before S5 started that she waws terminated. They werent even really at each other throats. She told them she was pregnant, they got pissed and retaliated against her.

She wasnt even going originally in the 100th episode since they wanted SMG who turned it down then they went with Charsima who told them her only stipulation is that they not kill her off which they agreed to and once she signed the dotted line she got the script that said that Cordelia was dead.

 

[Jh7058622]

It is not just Tara and Fred.

It's Anya. It's Cordelia. It's Shadowcat in Amazing X-men. It's Penny in Dr. Horrible.

Anya had completed her storyarc also. She wasn't apart of a relationship when she died either. She went from needing men to give her purpose to finding her own voice. She, to me, had the most satisfying arc next to Faith only Anyas was far more complicated and complex. She went from running from danger to being a warrior in her own right. I loved Anya and her story. One of the best Buffyverse characters.

Cordelia had nothing to do with wanting to kill off a love interest but conflicts between the star and producers. She lied about her pregnancy until they had to scramble to make it work narratively.

 

[Aximili86]

Thats not true, she expected to come back to work untul she found out before S5 started that she waws terminated. They werent even really at each other throats. She told them she was pregnant, they got pissed and retaliated against her.

She wasnt even going originally in the 100th episode since they wanted SMG who turned it down then they went with Charsima who told them her only stipulation is that they not kill her off which they agreed to and once she signed the dotted line she got the script that said that Cordelia was dead.

That whole season was a cluster****, to be fair. I think 4 turned out pretty well given how they had to write around her.

As for the "retaliation", that sounds a little harsh. It likely wasn't the pregnancy, but how late they were informed, and how that effected the plans. In either case, I seriously doubt Charisma would have been expecting and/or wanting as large a role in S5 when she's got a newborn. The plan may have originally been for her to stick around, but with the way it went I doubt she'd have been wanting to keep the same workload.

As for the death thing in S5, wouldn't it be weirder given what went down in 4 if she stayed alive?

And I'm still not getting how this leans toward the women, with the romantic stuff. They kept Angel & Buffy apart for the most part after Angel died (the reunion after resurrection was short lived). Wash & Zoe were torn apart by killing Wash. Cordy & Doyle by killing Doyle.

So on the other side you've got Xander/Anya, Wes/Fred, Willow/Tara and if we're counting Dr Horrible, Penny.

That's a single more case on the killing-the-women-in-romantic-pairings front. If we're counting Dr Horrible. Sort of blanking on Dollhouse right now, been forever since I've seen it, but there may be an example there too. It still works out pretty close to even all-in-all though, if there's an imbalance it's pretty negligible.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Charisma wasnt planning to change her workload, plenty of actresses have children and go back to work full time. So yes it was retaliation. Even worse since she didnt find out she was coming back until S5 started shooting and then to lie to her ontop of that when they ask her to return.

 

[Aximili86]

And she didn't tell them she was pregnant in S4 until she was visibly showing. Plenty of lack of professionalism to go around in that particular situation.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Her not telling them until a certain point did not = her being fired and then tricked into signing a contract to return for 1 episode only to be killed off.

 

[Jh7058622]

Kind of it did as it created chaos for the writers room. I'm sure they weren't planning ANY of what happened the tail end of A4. That entire last half of the season had to be improvised by the writers which to their credit they did rise to the occasion.

 

[Aximili86]

Jesus man. We can see you're a big Carpenter fan by the avatar, but nobody "tricked" anyone into anything. She and Joss, while having made up since, were at loggerheads at the time over the writer's room panic, she took it personally, he probably said stuff he shouldn't have said. Come season 5 they didn't know where to go, they ended up with a compromise where she got a nice send-off but wasn't a full-timer.

Lots of blame to go around, but neither party's some type of monster acting without good faith. They worked out a middle-ground, and are cool with each other now.

That's life.

 

[Primal Slayer]

When someone says "I'll come back but on one condition: I dont die" and you say OKAY! "Ok I'll sign this contract" then you send me the script where I die.... that's a trick.

I know you want to make this into a both parties were equally wrong but its not. You want to believe that "charisma wouldn't want to come back full time because she has a baby now" but she's stated the complete opposite. She was fired, it wasn't a mutual decision that you want to pretend that it was.

We aren't talking about how they are with each other now, we are talking about how they were then.

 

[Havok83]

The show was cancelled a few episodes after hers anyway, so what does it matter? Its not like she'd have returned for the non-existant 6th season. She did not need to come back for them to kill off Cordelia, especially since it happened offscreen. It happened and would have regardless

 

[Primal Slayer]

The show was cancelled afterwards so by the time she returned there was no evidence that the show would be cancelled.....so it doesn't matter that it went on to be cancelled.

Just like how Amber refused to return as Tara because she didn't want Tara portrayed a certain way, if Charisma didn't want to come back just to be killed that was her prerogative.

 

[Havok83]

No I mean its a moot point to complain/be upset about this now. It ultimately didnt matter and useless to still be bitter about it. I didnt like tht she was killed off originally but considering the show was cancelled on a cliffhanger, it gave the character and her fans closure, which wouldnt have happened otherwise so Im glad it happened in hindsight

 

[Jh7058622]

Not only that but Chrisma and Joss hashed it out also. Move on because they did.

 

[flickchick85]

She screwed over her bosses and then they screwed her over worse. Sucks that it went down that way but this business isn’t particularly known for people being nice to each other, unfortunately.

 

[Primal Slayer]

No I mean its a moot point to complain/be upset about this now. It ultimately didnt matter and useless to still be bitter about it. I didnt like tht she was killed off originally but considering the show was cancelled on a cliffhanger, it gave the character and her fans closure, which wouldnt have happened otherwise so Im glad it happened in hindsight

For the most part I agree, just want to make sure that the facts stay the facts.

 

[batdude]

Charisma missed almost a whole season because of that so it stick out at least.

 

[Aximili86]

Yes, Carpenter was fired. No one's disputing that. She was fired for cause - not because she got knocked up, but because she figured she could just not tell anyone about it and put them on the spot in terms of writing the show. She and Joss have been cool with each other for years - pretty clearly it's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

And dude, Amber didn't quit the show. They wrote Tara out. She's said she was surprised (not in a bad way) upon being told they were killing Tara. That's not someone who's asked to be written out.

As for Charisma/Joss, the fact both of them were a part of the 20th reunion recently pretty much shows there's no bad blood between them. People make dumb work decisions, prices are paid at the time, people put it in perspective and move on.

Not sure why you're taking them writing the character out so personally. They did it before with Quinn when his drug use was impacting the work environment in S1 (at least as far as his part was concerned), Charisma's lack of forthrightness likewise impacted the ability to get the show done (as planned, anyway).

 

[Primal Slayer]

Yes, Carpenter was fired. No one's disputing that. She was fired for cause - not because she got knocked up, but because she figured she could just not tell anyone about it and put them on the spot in terms of writing the show. She and Joss have been cool with each other for years - pretty clearly it's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

Cordelia, sounds like Carpenter wanted out, and there'd been tension between she and Joss over season 4 with all the pregnancy-rewrite thing. Come season 5, she had a baby, she and Joss were at each other's throats the year before, I don't know if the Cordelia thing can even really be considered a "storytelling choice" or part of some Joss pattern. Charisma seemed to have wanted out.

And dude, Amber didn't quit the show. They wrote Tara out. She's said she was surprised (not in a bad way) upon being told they were killing Tara. That's not someone who's asked to be written out.

I never said that she quit the show. She was written out and invited to return to an episode and refused when they pitched her the idea. Charisma was let go from the show and returned to the show based on what they pitched her which was altered. That's what I said.

As for Charisma/Joss, the fact both of them were a part of the 20th reunion recently pretty much shows there's no bad blood between them. People make dumb work decisions, prices are paid at the time, people put it in perspective and move on.

Not sure why you're taking them writing the character out so personally. They did it before with Quinn when his drug use was impacting the work environment in S1 (at least as far as his part was concerned), Charisma's lack of forthrightness likewise impacted the ability to get the show done (as planned, anyway).

Like I said, I was making sure the facts were straight and it wasnt about Cordelia, it was about Charisma. Yeah I pissed when they wrote her out but this entire thing was never about her character.

 

[Aximili86]

Alrighty then.