Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire

[O'Haire]

I haven't read After The Fall yet. But they are coming out with a big hardcover collecting all the issues. Think I will get it. Biggest thing that kept me from reading it was Urru's art. It's pretty awful.

 

[Sawyer]

I need to pick up the rest of the After the Fall collections eventually. I only read the first few issues, and just kept up by reading the synopsis for the rest. I'm not interested in anything post-After the Fall though. It just sounds... terrible. I think I might have to pick up "The Wolf, the Ram and the Hart" arc though, just because I believe that is supposed to lead into Angel's part in season 8.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The stuff after AtF was good in concept. Kate and Connor basically organize a new team around Angel and everyone in LA remembers their time in hell and how Angel saved them. Cool ideas. But then there were cat-people and the fallout of AtF, which was still terrible, and blah blah blah. It's a well-intentioned mess.

I haven't read After The Fall yet. But they are coming out with a big hardcover collecting all the issues. Think I will get it. Biggest thing that kept me from reading it was Urru's art. It's pretty awful.

The writing honestly isn't any better. You'd probably be better off ignoring it if Whedon weren't counting it toward the new Dark Horse series.

 

[Sawyer]

I'm just praying that Dark Horse puts better writers on their Angel ongoing.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

And better artists. Although, to be honest, I always felt like people other than Whedon handled Angel best. I kind of wish they could get one of the old showrunners back to spearhead season 7.

 

[Sawyer]

Agreed on that. I always feel like, when I watch Angel, that Joss kind of viewed it as his redheaded stepchild. The only time that he had any real involvement in the show was when both his other shows were off the air.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Exactly. Although, granted, season 5 is my second-favorite after season 2, so he did do some good work on it.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

Angel wouldn't have worked as a series if he'd stayed the same as he'd been in Buffy, it's his gradual humanisation that makes the show work.
I heard SMG was not a fan of spuffy which she found degrading which is possibly why so many spuffers liked it. Buffy was never a b*tch, she'd been through a lot and just couldn't be the carefree girl of season 1-5 we knew, but she's still Buffy and she's still worthy of our love. She and Faith shouldn't die like all the Slayers before them, they're the ones who changed the rules, they both die happily in their beds, aged in their 70s, surrounded by their grandchildren and holding Dawn's hand.
What does 'entoured' mean? It would be unrealistic if characters didn't die in the course of either series, both shows are pretty ruthless though, killing off a regular or recurring character every 10 eps or so.
I liked Nina too, wish we saw more of her in the comics. Nice to see Kate back as a supernatural version of The Punisher after giving up being an ADA in New York. Gwen was good too, shame they never made her a regular as they were obviously considering. Angel; After the Fall isn't great, the art is terrible in some editions, you can't tell characters apart and some of the subplots like Rez are appalling
Met Jeremy Renner at a convention when he'd just done Angel, handsome and charming but who knew he'd be such a star?
Poor Riley, never had a chance really, liked both him and Connor better when they returned as guest stars. I'm ok with Condelia as long as they're not blood relatives. Kennedy was just beginning to grow on me when the series ended, I think Joss didn't want Willow 'running back to boystown' but wanted her to fall in love with the 'anti-Tara' (she kinda reminds me Santana from Glee)

Faith, Hope and Trick

The Good;
Faith. Need I really say any more?
Faith dancing and fighting is great but also the scenes where we get to see her terrified, more vulnerable side. Love the scenes where Buffy is being single-white-femaled by Faith which she takes with suprising good humour. And Angel's back, yay!
Love Joyce sticking it to Snyder and the uncoupling scene at Buffy's picnic.

The Bad;
The idea of Mr Trick being able to order children online as food is just too horrible for words

Best line; Mr Trick "Admittedly not a haven for the bruthas, strictly of the Caucasion persuasion here in the Dale" just beating Xander's wonderful "People say kids don't learn anything at High School. well I learnt, I learnt to be afraid!"

Wheldon Cliches;
Character death;
Shot;
Tied up; no but presumably Faith was handcuffed when she was arrested
Knocked out;
Women good/men bad;
Kinky dinky; Now that Faith is on the scene I expect to have a great deal more to write in this column. She starts off with naked slaying and alligator wrestling and saying Slaying makes you 'hungry and horny' (of course in Get It Done we discover why Slayers have these sort of feelings). And of course, the writers find an excuse for nude Angel too. According to Willow Buffy has a thing she does with her mouth that 'boys like'. Hmmmmm? Xander calls Buffy a ****. Buffy's fondling of the letter opener is reminiscent of her stroking the crystal in 'Helpless'. Cordy refers to Faith as '****-o-rama' but also suggests that she dress up as a Slayer and put a stake to Xander's throat, a sex game he seems keen on.
Calling Captain Subtext; Faith obviously hungers for both a mother and father figure, commenting on Giles' 'youth and beauty' and obviously enamoured of Joyce, saying she's really cool (something I suspect Buffy and Dawn would also think but never say). Joyce says she likes Faith and Buffy describes Joyce as the 'best mom ever'. Faith's line about her 'Dead mother hitting harder than that' is loaded with not so hidden meaning. Faith has not only never knew her dad but lost her mother and also her female Watcher making her pretty desperate for some maternal/paternal love. So I pronounce this Jaith and Gaith. She also starts putting the moves on Scott Hope, the beginning of a long tradition of stealing Buffy's boyfriends (Buffy is still touchy when Faith mentions Angel). BUT even Buffy describes Faith as 'personable' the beginning of the biggest subtext in the series. Joyce actually refers to marching in the 'Slayer pride parade' again likening being the Slayer to being gay.

Questions and observations;
The introduction of Mr Trick and Faith, the series just never looking back from this point. Kakistos seems to not be killable with a regular stake. Like The Master he seems to be so old that he's devolving into a Turok-Han. Martha Stewart is mentioned as she is later revealed by Anya to be a witch. Giles' subtle efforts to get Buffy to reveal the truth about what happened to Angel (another point against Normal Again, Buffy never knows about this). There are no leprechauns in the Buffyverse but judging by DB's attempts at an Irish accent and Charmed's efforts in that direction we should be grateful. Faith's dead Watcher was female, the first we've heard about. I know some people think that she was killed during Faith's Cruciamentum which we'll later see in Helpless but that happens when a Slayer turns 18 and Faith is younger than Buffy who is 17 (Buffy refers to Faith as her little sister, at least until Dawn comes along). Giles loves to kayak. Couldn't the Watcher's Council pay for Faith to have a better apartment? Or couldn't she live with Giles or Buffy and Joyce (Dawn's room isn't being used yet). Mr Trick is right, not many visible ethnic minorities in Sunnydale but I've been to Santa Barbara which it's apparently based on and it's a pretty accurate representation. Giles warns Willow for the first time about abuse of magic. You can make fire from ice and it doesn't take magic. Presumably Khakisto's scar doesn't heal because Faith inflicted it with some form of enchanted weapon, like Spike's with the Chinise Slayer. Joyce comments on Buffy being an only child and learns for the first time that Buffy died. You wonder what Dawn makes of Faith? She resents her when they first meet in season 7 but what's her attitude on season 3?

Why no commentaries on all these brilliant episodes? Crap like Reptile Boy gets them but not classics like this? Please Joss, if you need a few million dollars to finance your next project just sit down with the cast and do some commentaries for Buffy; Special Edition DVDs, we'd all buy them.

10/10

 

[Hush]

I hated Kennedy too, Tara was more than just a Lesbian for Willow at the end and man was she important. Her death had ramifications that echo through out the rest of the show pretty handidly. I didn't like her at first but wow did she become an amazing character.

 

[ComicChick]

so I'm on the episode of Angel where Cordy and her friends got impregnated by a weird demon. thats an odd episode

 

[Sawyer]

Yeah, I never cared for that one.

 

[henzINNIT]

I like Urru's art *shrugs*, in fact the weakest thing for me in the series was that Urru didn't do all the issues. Runge and Mooney weren't as interesting, and the colour artists apparently forgot about every colour that wasn't brown. ATF had its problems but I think it's far better than season 8.

 

[lorenzovanmatte]

I hated Kennedy too, Tara was more than just a Lesbian for Willow at the end and man was she important. Her death had ramifications that echo through out the rest of the show pretty handidly. I didn't like her at first but wow did she become an amazing character.

Oz and Willow were a lovely couple and it took time for Tara to win over out affections but win them she did. But then when Oz turned up people were upset that it meant an end to Xander and Willow romance. I think if Kennedy had some more screentime we might have learned to love her too.

Yeah, that ep is called Expecting and verges on GOT-fic. Poor Cordy get's knocked up three times by different demons in the course of the show, not counting Angel the vampire, Groo and Connor who are half demon and possibly The Beast. She really does give off this com-shuk me vibe.


Beauty and the Beasts;

The Good;
Faith dancing, Buffy hunting and capturing Angel, Buffy's scenes with the counsellor, Willow's concern for Oz.

The Bad;
Pete's makeup is pretty stupid looking, I think the writers probably had more in mind a Bruce Banner halfway through his Hulk transformation rather than the rather daft way he is portrayed

Best line;
Oz; (mid fight with Pete, seeing the moon rise) " Times up. Rules change!" Great line, very similar to Roddy McDowell's exchange with his vampire foe in Fright Night as he sees the sun rise "Daylight Mr Dandridge, you're out of time"

Wheldon Cliches;
Character death; Platt becomes the 7th member of the SDH faculty to die in 3 years. Lord knows how many SDH students have died, I think Hellmouthcentral.com did a survey once, I'll look it up
Shot; yep, Oz again and Giles
Tied up; Angel. In case you're wondering the chains Buffy uses aren't her own, she knocks Dru's dolls off the chest they're contained in.
Knocked out; Oz, Giles and Angel whilst Willow faints. Buffy tells Faith to knock herself out but not literally.
Women good/men bad; the entire episode, about as close as Buffy ever becomes to being truly misandrist (the rumoured original title was 'All men are beasts'). Whilst Pete is obviously the villain here you have to blame Debbie to some degree, she knows what's going on and doesn't do anything to stop it, even though people are dying. Whilst it's worthy to tackle spousal abuse you do feel slightly bashed over the head by the not so subtle point. Faith says "All men are beasts" which seems a little unfair. She also refers to Manimal which again seems weird for a 17 year old in 1998 to refer to a tv show that lasted exactly 8 eps in 1983 (thank you IMDB). Again, something a bunch of 30 year old scriptwriters might be big fans off.
Kinky dinky; Naked Angel in chains. Ok, miraculously Angel seems to have acquired himself a pair of trousers despite his feral nature, keeping his dignity, like the Hulk. Willow says she's seen Oz 'half-monty', as Xander says, which half? Xander has seen Oz 'full-monty', presumably in the school showers but who knows? He seems very panicky explaining the use of his term 'handling'. Faith refers to the 'good lowdown tickle'. When Oz refers to two students 'fooling around' Faith automatically assumes 'They were screwing', shows how her mind works! Jerk Pete calls Debbie a ****e as an insult.
Calling Captain Subtext; Buffy is horrified at the idea of a girls school with uniforms and 'no boys' but I think that would make a good series in itself. Scott asks if Barbie ever wonders why Ken doesn't come around any more now he's got an earring. No wonder she always dumped him for Action Man. He also says that you never really know what's going on inside someone. Hmmmm?

Questions and observations;
Mr Platt smokes, probably the last time we'll ever see that in a teen show. Willow's reading from 'Call of the Wild' is interesting when you compare it to what Verucca says later. It could also apply to the Slayer's nature when we later see what Faith and Buffy get up to and what the first Slayer is like and why she's like that. What happens to Oz's clothes when he transforms whilst fighting Pete? Sunnydale High's marching jazz band is mentioned which Amanda is part of in season 7. Platt's remarks about being love's dog are interesting in comparison with Spike referring to being 'Love's Bitca' in Lover's Walk. Faith refers to going crazy and 'Get out of jail free' which she one day will do both. Will offers Buffy a jelly doughnut which we will see again in The Zeppo. Will actually saves Faith here. Cordy is missing for most of the ep.
It's a good enough ep but it's not terrific
6/10

 

[O'Haire]

I like Urru's art *shrugs*, in fact the weakest thing for me in the series was that Urru didn't do all the issues. Runge and Mooney weren't as interesting, and the colour artists apparently forgot about every colour that wasn't brown.

I liked Runge and Mooney mainly because they could draw the characters likeness. Most of the stuff from Urru I had no clue who was who most of the time other than Angel, Conner, Spike, and Gunn. Guy's work seems kind of sloppy.

Yeah the colorists for the IDW Angel series were awful.

Either way I'm happy Dark Horse has the rights again. Most likely get much better artists and colorists.

 

[Kii]

The artwork in the Buffy comics is absolutely abysmal.

 

[Sawyer]

No, it's not.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked Runge and Mooney mainly because they could draw the characters likeness. Most of the stuff from Urru I had no clue who was who most of the time other than Angel, Conner, Spike, and Gunn. Guy's work seems kind of sloppy.

Yeah the colorists for the IDW Angel series were awful.

Either way I'm happy Dark Horse has the rights again. Most likely get much better artists and colorists.

I love Runge as a cover artist. But ask him to draw stuff consistently for page after page (because lord knows you're not getting many individual panels out of him) and he falls apart. That one image of Wesley in the chair from one of the "First Night" issues sticks with me as basically the only good thing Runge drew in that entire story. The rest is all just a blur of awkwardness in my mind.

The thing I most want to see from Dark Horse is a consistent artist on Angel, like Georges was for Buffy. The likenesses may not always be great (Andrew comes to mind as a particularly heinous example), but the story will flow well and you'll at least be able to identify most of the characters consistently.

 

[O'Haire]

The artwork in the Buffy comics is absolutely abysmal.

I quite liked Jeanty's work on the season 8 comics.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, it was good stuff. I'm a fan of Jeanty in general, though.

 

[O'Haire]

Was it ever said if he was returning for season 9?

I know he's a big Angel fan. Would be cool to see him move over to his book.

 

[Hush]

The art is what kinda turns me off about the Buffy comic series, how cool would it be to see like Shane Davis do that work?

 

[O'Haire]

I would love to see Ryan Sook work on the Angel series.

He did some Buffy stuff years ago and I loved it.

 

[Primal Slayer]

The thing with Kennedy is taht she just seemed kind of forced. They wanted to put Willow into another relationship and just kind of seemed to pick Kennedy. I never really liked how they decieded to make Willow into a full on lesbian instead of just having her be bisexual.

 

[Hush]

I think the whole "I'm a full blown Lesbian!" thing would have been better if she hadn't been with Kennedy you know?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The art is what kinda turns me off about the Buffy comic series, how cool would it be to see like Shane Davis do that work?

Bleh, I don't really want to see someone like Shane Davis on the Whedonverse comics. He'd make them too "comic booky." I mean, his forte is all muscley dudes and buxom women and very superheroish art. I like the more cartoony look of Jeanty's art. I imagine I'm watching a Buffy animated series when I read the comic.

I would love to see Ryan Sook work on the Angel series.

He did some Buffy stuff years ago and I loved it.

Sook's another one who does "great art, but..." In his case, the "but" is that he takes forever or it's really obvious that he was working under a deadline. Believe me, you don't want to see his obvious deadline art.