First Avenger Cap's Power Level

[Turtles]

If that comes from the Marvel Universe published in the early 80s...then I say its a tad out-dated.

Out-dated, maybe, but still accurate, considering the fact that Cap has had pretty constant powers over his lifetime, unlike just about every other character in the 616 Marvel universe. And in the current comics (minus the Ultimates line), it's not like you see him lifting cars over his head or doing anything particularly spectacular to support the claim that his strength has increased all that much since his creation.

Now, on to the "peak human" bit of the discussion. I don't think there is real definition for "peak human" because all humans, more or less, are different. But even if there was one, how can people assume that it can actually change between the time Captain America was created and today? I hate to burst people's bubble, but the meaning of peak human can't change because humans haven't changed.

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.

We get the illusion that humans can do more today than ever before because technology, medicine, diet, and education is getting better, and with better technology, medicine, diet, and education, humans can....they can cheat, basically. You need look no further than swimming for proof of this. Swimmers are much faster today than ever before, but it's not because the swimmers of today are better, it is because they have high tech swimsuits that swimmers of years past didn't have. You need not get me started on steroids.

But, for the hell of it, let's say that the meaning of peak human can change. Let's say that, in the last sixty or so years humans, without a special breeding program, have magically evolved into a noticeably stronger, more durable species that can lift more without their arms snapping in half, and can run faster without their heart bursting in their chest, etc. (incredibly hard to believe, considering the fact that people have been selectively breeding animals for years to make them better, and their results are sometimes.....less than perfect)

Well, that still means nothing, because Steve Rogers was born in 1917, so he'll still only be capable of doing what a peak human could do in that day and age. What he will have is the same advantage everybody of today has: he'll know what to eat for energy and strength, he'll have the same supplements, and medical care, and high tech sports equipment or what have you at his disposal. He can use steroids! (616 Cap using steroids to become more like Ultimate Cap......there's a scary thought)

 

[Denny67]

Out-dated, maybe, but still accurate, considering the fact that Cap has had pretty constant powers over his lifetime, unlike just about every other character in the 616 Marvel universe. And in the current comics (minus the Ultimates line), it's not like you see him lifting cars over his head or doing anything particularly spectacular to support the claim that his strength has increased all that much since his creation.

Now, on to the "peak human" bit of the discussion. I don't think there is real definition for "peak human" because all humans, more or less, are different. But even if there was one, how can people assume that it can actually change between the time Captain America was created and today? I hate to burst people's bubble, but the meaning of peak human can't change because humans haven't changed.

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.

We get the illusion that humans can do more today than ever before because technology, medicine, diet, and education is getting better, and with better technology, medicine, diet, and education, humans can....they can cheat, basically. You need look no further than swimming for proof of this. Swimmers are much faster today than ever before, but it's not because the swimmers of today are better, it is because they have high tech swimsuits that swimmers of years past didn't have. You need not get me started on steroids.

But, for the hell of it, let's say that the meaning of peak human can change. Let's say that, in the last sixty or so years humans, without a special breeding program, have magically evolved into a noticeably stronger, more durable species that can lift more without their arms snapping in half, and can run faster without their heart bursting in their chest, etc. (incredibly hard to believe, considering the fact that people have been selectively breeding animals for years to make them better, and their results are sometimes.....less than perfect)

Well, that still means nothing, because Steve Rogers was born in 1917, so he'll still only be capable of doing what a peak human could do in that day and age. What he will have is the same advantage everybody of today has: he'll know what to eat for energy and strength, he'll have the same supplements, and medical care, and high tech sports equipment or what have you at his disposal. He can use steroids! (616 Cap using steroids to become more like Ultimate Cap......there's a scary thought)

Well stated Turtles.

@ Rage… It is not outdated at all. It is currently up on the Marvel website.

The idea of "peak human" condition is now and has always been in a frame of reference from the modern day analysis as we look at Cap in the here and now and not how he was in WWII. Caps origin is in WWII and there are stories to be told from that time but he is a modern hero.

So when those power levels are figured it is in the context of comparing him to existing heroes in the Marvel universe.

Marvel started Marvel Universe in the 80’s (I know, bought them when they were first published and still own them all) but Marvel has maintained them ever since then and now offers the info online for free through the official Marvel Wiki.

http://marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)

 

[Infinity9999x]

It may appear as if the meaning of "peak human" has changed because humans are running faster, jumping higher, lifting more, etc., etc., but that is all an illusion. Humans are just like everything else, they're designed to do only so much before they break--period.

That's somewhat subjective. Yes, we have better medical benefits, better diet, ect. and because of this we're growing bigger and stronger than we ever have.

However, we're still bigger and stronger than we ever have been. So yes, we ARE different. Athletes today are bigger and stronger than athletes two hundred years ago. Yes, you can say that it's because of outside factors that we are this way, but the simple fact is, we are different from our ancestors. Again, weather you want to argue that it's because humans each generation are naturally getting bigger and stronger, or because with modern technology we're able to eliminate more of the factors that held us back from reaching our physical potentials, it doesn't matter to me. Humans have changed.

And really, my argument for this wasn't about to debate what constitutes peak human. I understand that that realistically, this term has no meaning, because it's impossible to figure out what our "peak" potential is as a species.

However, just for sake of debate, I decided to go along with the idea that if Cap is as strong as the strongest human in every area of athletics (example: His chest is as strong as the best bench presser in the world, his legs are as strong as the strongest lower body power-lifter in the world, his fast twitch muscles are as developed as the fastest sprinter in the world, ect. ect.)

It would then be realistic to assume that Cap is actually able to do more than the "peak" humans we're comparing him to in each subject. For example, even though Cap's fast twitch muscles are as developed as Usain Bolt, he would actually be faster than Bolt, because he has the added power of the strongest power-lifter. ect. ect.

Basically, it's pointing out the idea that the entire body is one functioning system. Many people don't realize it, but seemingly unrelated muscle groups work together in exercise. Having a stronger lower body will actually help your bench press.

 

[marcvader]

No to Cap lifting cars.

 

[Turtles]

However, we're still bigger and stronger than we ever have been. So yes, we ARE different. Athletes today are bigger and stronger than athletes two hundred years ago. Yes, you can say that it's because of outside factors that we are this way, but the simple fact is, we are different from our ancestors. Again, weather you want to argue that it's because humans each generation are naturally getting bigger and stronger, or because with modern technology we're able to eliminate more of the factors that held us back from reaching our physical potentials, it doesn't matter to me. Humans have changed.

200 years ago we were probably noticeably different, yeah, I agree with you there. But I'm talking about only sixty or seventy years ago, not 200, and we, as a species, haven't changed that much in the last sixty or seventy years. We may have grown an inch here or there, but we're humans, not cars--we don't go through major redesigns every ten years or so.

It would then be realistic to assume that Cap is actually able to do more than the "peak" humans we're comparing him to in each subject. For example, even though Cap's fast twitch muscles are as developed as Usain Bolt, he would actually be faster than Bolt, because he has the added power of the strongest power-lifter. ect. ect.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it, I just don't agree with how much of a power boost you think it can lead to. If all Cap's muscles were in perfect condition, and they worked in unison to do the maxim amount of work, then I believe he might be able to force an extra 100 to 200 pounds out of a lift and, maybe, an extra five or six miles an hour out of a sprint. His strength won't double, nor will his speed. So, if he is able to lift 800 pounds, then, if his muscles do work as one and give him a boost of strength, he might really be able to pull off lifting as much as 1,000 pounds. But 1,000 pounds still isn't very impressive by superhero standards, and still isn't at the level of Ultimate Cap.

But, I'll be happy if they keep his Marvel stats as is and make him only able to lift up to 800 pounds. I can understand why people would want him to have super strength--it's cool, it really is. But everything about him being a hero with super strength is just.....wrong. And here's why:

1.One of things that showed just how great Captain America was as a man and as a hero, was the fact that he didn't have great super powers, yet real super strong heroes, the likes of Thor, would follow him to hell and back anyway. It emphasized the fact that he was a charismatic, smart man that every body wanted to make their leader; they didn't want to make him the leader just because he was the strongest guy in the room. (not that he would be, even if he had Ultimate level strength, I'm just saying that the weaker he is, the more impressive it will be to see people like Thor follow him)

2. He's always been about tactics, not about strength.

3. I recently re-read the first issues of the original Avengers, and I'm really surprised by the number of times people refer to him as the weakest member of the original team.....yet he's the one who always saves the day. So, basically, he's made a career off proving to the world that being "weak" doesn't mean anything when it comes down to being a good superhero. That shouldn't have to change.

Cap needs to be an awesome hero without relying on a power boost. I mean, if making him stronger is the only way to give him that "wow" factor that people are asking for, then maybe we should just make him bullet proof, too, and give him the ability to fly--that would really give him a "wow" factor, wouldn't it?

We can debate about what "peak human" means for years to come, and about how much extra power you can gain by having strong muscles all over your body rather than in just one place until we're blue in the face. But, let's face it, Cap is what he is.

He was designed by Marvel to be a great hero--not because he had great powers, but rather, because he stood for something great.

Whew......these posts are getting long. Sorry.

 

[marcvader]

I agree with you T. Cap is about inspiration, determination, and heart for me and always has been. He's always accomplished great feats of heroism without the aid of "super" abilities and is why he's always been my favorite in the Marvel U.

 

[Rage]

Turtles...

Captain America generally performed just below superhuman levels for most of his career. Captain America had a very high intelligence as well as agility, strength, speed, endurance, and reaction time superior to any Olympic athlete who ever competed. The Super-Soldier formula that he had metabolized had enhanced all of his bodily functions to the peak of human efficiency. Most notably, his body eliminates the excessive build-up of fatigue-producing poisons in his muscles, granting him phenomenal endurance.

So, while I agree with most of what you are saying. What I'm reading is that Cap is just slightly below Superhuman... but WAY MORE than regular human levels...

So, he should easily run faster than Bolt. Be able to lift way more than any Strongman... swim way faster/farther than Michael Phelps ect...

Cap for al intents and purposes IS SUPERHUMAN. The things that he does all the time would seem superhuman to any bystander. Sure he's not the most powerful hero out there...but he is no slouch.

 

[Webhead2006]

those are all good points guys and i agree with you.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Turtles,

I get what you're saying about the strength level thing, the point being that the less power Cap has, the more impressive his feats seem.

However, a part of me just likes Cap to be a little more beefed up. I mean, Ultimate Cap, by superhero standards, still isn't the biggest heavy hitter. 2 tons is still pretty sparse compared to Spider-man's 10. However, even though he's weaker, it still gives him the power to go toe to toe with some Meta-humans. The scene in Ultimates vol 1 for example, where Cap has a brief encounter with Hulk. Yeah, Cap only gets a few shots in, but at least because of his added power, I can see him actually being able to stagger the Hulk for a few moments, where I would have a hard time believing 616 Cap being able to do that.

Also, one thing that I just thought of, that we haven't taken into account, is the lack of Lactic Acid. We know that Cap's muscles don't produce this, and not only does this dramatically increase his cardio abilities (in terms of how long he can run, fight, be active, ect.) but it would also effect his muscle-building abilities. One thing that limits the amount of time we can work out is the fatigue producing posions as Rage put it.

Cap would be able to train longer and harder without getting tired the way a normal person would. Now, as to weather or not this would effect the maximum level of strength Cap could reach, I'm not sure, but it would certainly effect the amount of time Cap could lift a certain weight.

 

[Sparky]

Ultimate Cap can lift a lot more than two tons. In Ultimates 2 he has seven or eight class 3 guys holding him down and he's able to throw them off. I think Wizard Magazine first came up with the Ultimate Cap = 2 ton thing. They also had Ult. Colossus at like class 20 or something, which is also wrong since Ult. Colossus carry a whole submarine (marking him easily as a class 100). I don't put much stock in Wizard's estimates. Anyway, Ultimate Cap is more in the class 5-10 range.

For the movie, I'd prefer Cap to be closer to his Ultimate counterpart.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Ultimate Cap can lift a lot more than two tons. In Ultimates 2 he has seven or eight class 3 guys holding him down and he's able to throw them off. I think Wizard Magazine first came up with the Ultimate Cap = 2 ton thing. They also had Ult. Colossus at like class 20 or something, which is also wrong since Ult. Colossus carry a whole submarine (marking him easily as a class 100). I don't put much stock in Wizard's estimates. Anyway, Ultimate Cap is more in the class 5-10 range.

For the movie, I'd prefer Cap to be closer to his Ultimate counterpart.

Captain America is sufficiently strong enough to lift 2 tons

http://marvel.wikia.com/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-1610)

 

[Sparky]

http://marvel.wikia.com/Steven_Rogers_(Earth-1610)

That page looks blank to me.

 

[3dman27]

it is whats going on?

 

[Infinity9999x]

Weird, the link isn't working, but if you type in Ultimate Captain America in the search bar on the page, the info will pop up.

Don't know why the hyperlink doesn't work though.

 

[SpiderByte]

He'll be 100% human strength. Not superhuman, but powerful as a person could possibly be.

 

[Rage]

I got news for you guys... anyone who can go full out for HOURS without tiring and can sprint a 60 second mile... IS SUPERHUMAN!! He's not Thor or Hulk... but he's what anyone in the real world would consider SUPERHUMAN.

Rage

 

[3dman27]

So dr.erkskine's experiment t make a peak human backfired on him and gave the u.s. Its first super-human/

 

[afan]

As I understood it the "peak human abilities" that the serum grants Captain America refers to the human body operating in all capacities at 100%. It is super-human, in that no normal human unassisted by the serum can acheive his level regardless of training regimes or dedication. He's not just as strong as the strongest man, he is as strong as the human body can possibly be.
I believe it's based on some pseudo-scientific theory that humans only operate at 10% of there total capacity.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The fact that his body does not produce lactic acid also makes him superhuman. He can pretty much go until he dies.

 

[Rage]

Exactly Infinity! The guy is Superhuman. I think that being able to press 800lbs is not that "Superhuman" since I believe that the world record was set by Ryan Kennelly who pressed 1075 lbs (487.61 kg) (November 8)

So if that guy is "human"... than shouldn't Cap be able to out-press him? The world record in 1950 was 400 lbs by Doug Hepburn. So if that was the "peak" human performance and Cap can do double that... is it fair to say that Cap should probably be able to double what the current record is? 2150 lbs??..... and be able to do it repeatedly without the buildup of lactic acid? Seems "Superhuman" to me

 

[Timstuff]

The truth is that we do not know what "peak" human conditioning is since the bar always seems to get raised. My persona opinion is that since Cap is a super soldier, they might as well give the audience something to hoot and holler about. He might not be "super" in the sense that he doesn't have any "powers" other than beefed up abilities of a human being, but that in and of itself is still "super." I wouldn't mind if they showed him throwing a car in the movie.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Cap throwing cars is not iconic Cap to me, though Inifinty's argument has a lot of merit and Cap propably could given those points. But, it's still not iconic Cap to me, so I'd rather see him do awesome stuff with his shield and just be extremely athletic in his overall fighting style. Batman doesn't do a whole lot in terms of his fighting in the Nolan films, but we get a lot of great action sequences and struggles with him. I think the same can be done with Cap. Only bigger since he is a more athletic person than Batman.

 

[Timstuff]

Batman has Ninja skills though, and he can turn himself almost completely invisible if he knows the terrain (and even if he doesn't, in most instances). He's also got an abundance of sweet toys to play with like his utility belt full of gadgets and weapons, the batmobile, etc. If they want to sell Cap to the audience, he's going to have to offer something remarkable. Just being a really good fighter and being able to throw a shield isn't really going to be enough IMO, especially if he's going to be on a team. Since the premise of his character is that he was a superhero created through a super serum, I think that what the audience is going to want and expect will be to see him doing "superhuman" feats like throwing cars, even if he has to exert himself to do so (unlike Superman or even Spider-Man).

Cap doesn't have "powers" in that he can't fly or anything like that, but I do think his strength, agility, and endurance should be beyond those of a normal human, not just "at peak level" (and really, if EVERYTHING was "at peak" he'd already technically be beyond what a normal human can achieve). I think they need to make it clear that the things Cap can do would be impossible for someone without some kind of super serum to do, because otherwise a lot of the audience might be like "well then why didn't they just put someone through grueling training?"

I'm not saying they should re-imagine what Cap is, just that his power level should be defined in the film as being beyond those of unassisted humans (i.e. he can throw a car), not fixed to what we believe to be peak level (i.e. olympic athlete records). The worst case scenario for a non-super Cap would be that dreadful 1990 movie, which The Nostalgia Critic called one of the lamest superheroes ever (and this was from a guy who had to review freaking STEEL!).

Unlike Batman, Cap isn't just a regular guy who got where he is through training, so I think the audience is going to want the movie to give us a reason why a serum was necessary, and not just have him be a highly trained athlete. I'd like to think that TIH was just giving us a small hint of what Cap might be able to do, and not just be "the real Super Soldier Serum is like this, except without the crazies."

 

[Spider-Fan]

Look at what Blonsky does in TIH. His 2nd battle with the Hulk when he only has the serum powers is actually rather impressive in terms of what he can do. If you have Cap do a ton of things like that, and do cool things with the shield, I think it will be enough. Since he won't be doing these things to the Hulk, it would make him look good. The 90's film Cap did nothing remotely athletic, and that is why he failed at being human perfection. If you have a Cap capable of what Blonsky was doing in TIH, and have him do it more cleanly or more impressive, I don't think he needs to throw cars to be impressive. Cool fights and action can be achieved with Cap without having to go there. Throwing cars has never been Caps style. The film needs to define Cap's power level, yes, but I also think Cap needs to have a fighting style defined. That seems against his style to me.

Cap was never the most powerful Avenger we also have to remember. But, he is the best leader, the strongest willed, and the best strategist. Thor and IM may have more overall power, but Cap excels in areas they do not. Emphasising these things is the way to go.

 

[Rage]

Among the "peak human abilities" that Cap has is his memory. Cap NEVER forgets anything since he doesn't lose brain cells at the normal human rate. That is why he can recall any military tactic in a split second and implement or counteract an enemy's strategy. That is what makes him an ideal leader... his passion and willingness to be the first person into the line of fire is what makes him A GREAT LEADER!