The Winter Soldier Captain America and killing discussion

[captainrogers]

Now again, if you can find me those non-WW2 kills that Brubaker had Captain America make, remember kill orders and taking down terrorists: I am open ears.

....
No trying to be confrontational here...but...isn't that what we just did?
In Those scans.
Those terrorists are Dead.
Yes, he was stressed from the events of Avengers "Disassembled" but those Guys are Dead.
As a result of Cap.
Cap killed them.
Cap took down terrorists.
In 'NOT WWII'.
I'm going a bit cross-eyed.

Also: I'm a bit foggy, but I think Cap was responsible for enemy combatant loss of life during Bru and Company's run on Secret Avengers.

 

[Drz]

First scan has Sharon Carter saying that, before his emotional turmoil, he didn't kill "unless he has to," not that he had made a vow against ever committing murder under any circumstance.

But the same panels show that Sharton Carter was weirded out by Cap killing a handful of terrorists, but in the movie, which you and me saw, Cap kills terorrists and noone questions it.

Thats my point here, the comic book Cap in general doesn't kill, how many people has he killed after World War 2? 5? 10? Movie Captain America is much more tolerable with his blood on his hands, because this ins't comic books.

As for the last one, you're really reaching there. Captain America isn't even in the scene at all, and you're playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon with "Hawkeye says Avengers don't kill... Captain America embodies the ideal values of an Avenger.... therefore he must have a no-kill code."

Okay, this is from the same writer as the Secret Avengers page, this is from Uncanny Avengers, the Unity Squad between X-Men and Avengers, which is torn apart when they learn about Wolverine's X-Force.

This is a 2013 comic where Captain America tells that the Avengers don't kill.

"We're not going to go off and kill these twins, no matter what they've done. That's not the Avengers -- Not ever.

Then it was brought up that he killed lots of people in World War 2. Then you said your point was....

Yeah that was all in the mistake of me assuming too much, of course Captain America killed in World War 2 and comic book fans know that. It's just that the modern era Cap, he doesn't go on a killing spree in comics. Thats why HYDRA, AIM, Crossbones, Baron Von Strucker, etc are alive. :b

If Captain America would had been so casual about kills, why would Sharton question it And why doesn't Captain America kill more? Because the comic one doesn't, unless it's some weird last resort or stress caused mistake. Avengers don't kill lol. :b

I would say his movie incarnation is actually pretty consistent with his comic version. Both of them are generally opposed to killing, will avoid it if they can, but they will kill if its necessary in a combat situation.

C'mon man you've seen the movie like i did!

Spoiler

Maria Hill didn't want to blow up those Helicarriers, they we're full of HYDRA people, Cap made the Kill order.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I think this could risk taking the thread off-track about reacting to the film, but all these scans repeatedly say that Captain America isn't a killer - i.e. he isn't an assassin who will hunt people down to murder them - not that he doesn't kill. He's a soldier.

Spoiler

And you don't think comics Cap would have made the same order to kill three skeleton crews of HYDRA henchmen if it meant saving millions of innocent lives?

 

[TheVileOne]

In the comics, Captain America killed the terrorist Al-Tariq.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I'd say CA's willingness to kill during fighting in the MCU is more in line with his Ultimate version than the 616-version. So basically we have 616 as his base personality and then the Ultimates for when he's in the heat of battle, minus all the rude wisecracks and misogyny.

 

[captainrogers]

I'd say CA's willingness to kill during fighting in the MCU is more in line with his Ultimate version than the 616-version. So basically we have 616 as his base personality and then the Ultimates for when he's in the heat of battle, minus all the rude wisecracks and misogyny.

I agree with this.
But in terms of the 616 Rogers, yes, Cap kills (has killed).
Rarely, especially when compared to his peers (like Logan) but it's happened.


....

Damn I wish this movie was out here in the States.
Most of my buds Stationed overseas tagged me on the Facespace last night with elated expressions in front of the Cap movie theaters posters.

A bit envious.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

I think this could risk taking the thread off-track about reacting to the film, but all these scans repeatedly say that Captain America isn't a killer - i.e. he isn't an assassin who will hunt people down to murder them - not that he doesn't kill. He's a soldier.

Spoiler

And you don't think comics Cap would have made the same order to kill three skeleton crews of HYDRA henchmen if it meant saving millions of innocent lives?

Keyser this is why its better to preempt this kind of thing. It usually leads to lengthy thread-hijacking debates that go nowhere. Even if its nominally on topic.

 

[herolee10]

I think I just find if weird on how they have steve say that he doesn't want to kill anyone and yet show him going for the kill against several opponents

 

[peterparker0077]

there seems to be confusion on killing for no good reason, and killing out of necessity to save other's lives or for the mission at hand... Cap only does the later, not the former, like any good police officer or military person would.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

....
No trying to be confrontational here...but...isn't that what we just did?

Save your breath. He asked a question, got answers he didn't like/expect, and had to move the goalposts so he could keep arguing. He'll just do it again. Not worth it.

 

[Drz]

Spoiler

And you don't think comics Cap would have made the same order to kill three skeleton crews of HYDRA henchmen if it meant saving millions of innocent lives?

Spoiler

Was there any real need to destroy the Helicarriers? Even Maria Hill didn't want to do it originally, but Captain America orders it, causing the destruction of Triskelion. Which was just a setback for Hydra at the end of the day.

I wonder when these movies influence the comics enough, so we get to see these Avengers do these kills on their own books.

Did you find any of those kills from Brubaker's run you we're mentioning to me by the way?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Spoiler

Was there any real need to destroy the Helicarriers? Even Maria Hill didn't want to do it originally, but Captain America orders it, causing the destruction of Triskelion. Which was just a setback for Hydra at the end of the day.

I wonder when these movies influence the comics enough, so we get to see these Avengers do these kills on their own books.

Did you find any of those kills from Brubaker's run you we're mentioning to me by the way?

Why are you still on this? Move on already.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Edit.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I wonder when these movies influence the comics enough, so we get to see these Avengers do these kills on their own books.

That would be a far more preferable outcome than an outdated adherence to Seduction of the Innocent. The 1950's were a long time ago. Let it go.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

I think it's less of Cap not having a no-kill rule, and more of not having a shoot-the-dog rule.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Decapitated. #conversationover

And yes, vampires count

 

[spider-neil]

See, 'THIS' is why SHH is best avoided days, weeks (and sometimes even MONTHS) before watching the movie. Because a spoiler is in the THREAD TITLE therefore seeing it is unavoidable and you going into the movie knowing a crucial bit of information instead of discovering it fresh in the movie.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

Decapitated. #conversationover

And yes, vampires count

I think Cap was going to do the same maneuver to King Thor in the Reigning.

 

[seishin87]

As far as the comics and Caps' no killing policy it's variable. In the golden age stuff from the '40s he punched one goon into a blast furnace, and in a story set in possibly the pacific theater he pulls a pin on one mooks grenade still stuck to the guys belt, picks him up and tosses him into a bunker which goes kaboom along with the goon and whoever else was inside. That actually happened in the comics from the '40s. The violence level was on par with some of the early Bonds and kinda sorta an inspiration for Indiana Jones.

The return in the '60s is when the code came into effect. You have such censored stuff like a villain clearly shooting and killing someone but then there's a bubble to add it's a stun ray to knock the person out. They had a retelling of the Red Skull origin where he was murdering figures key to the war effort, where they reuse the panels but instead of the victims being poisoned they were just put to sleep/in a coma so they would be ineffective in the war effort. If villains couldn't even get away with killing, no way would they let their star moral crusader do so.

It's seems like they started pushing the code in the late '60s and '70s where it started to move from neutered "G" rated to PG type stuff. The '80s is where they really started acknowledging Cap's strict no kill policy. There was the confrontation with the original Red Skull, where Skull tried to force Steve to kill him,. Then there was a story arc I think by Gruenwald featuring Flag Smasher and a skyjacking where Steve is actually forced to shoot and kill a terrorist. And that had some serious moral/emotional ramifications for Cap which seemed very silly happening to '40s grenading Cap.

In Red Glare Steve is forced to really confront his no killing rule, with the fate of the universe and all reality at stake. That's an interesting read. To me it seems after 9/11 and the start of the wars in the mid east, they haven't really mentioned Cap having a strict no kill policy, at least from what I've read, but yeah he has directly and indirectly caused villain deaths on occasion in the recent stuff but as far as a strict no kill policy, It's more like a last resort, if he has to, he'll do what it takes but preserve life if at all possible. At least that's the general impression I get on that.

 

[Keyser Soze]

See, 'THIS' is why SHH is best avoided days, weeks (and sometimes even MONTHS) before watching the movie. Because a spoiler is in the THREAD TITLE therefore seeing it is unavoidable and you going into the movie knowing a crucial bit of information instead of discovering it fresh in the movie.

There's no spoiler in the title. It's a general discussion topic on whether or not Cap should kill.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Spoiler

Was there any real need to destroy the Helicarriers? Even Maria Hill didn't want to do it originally, but Captain America orders it, causing the destruction of Triskelion. Which was just a setback for Hydra at the end of the day.

I wonder when these movies influence the comics enough, so we get to see these Avengers do these kills on their own books.

Did you find any of those kills from Brubaker's run you we're mentioning to me by the way?

This argument has just taken a weird turn now. Your original point, the one we were all actually arguing about, was you saying that you liked how Captain America killed in the movies when he had a strict "no-kill" rule in the comics, then you boasting that anybody with any comics knowledge would know that Captain America has vowed never to kill in the comics. This was categorically proven wrong, with multiple examples from various comics.

And so, in your cartwheels to avoid being wrong, and in order to make it seem like your original claim about movie Cap being more extreme than comic Cap is still valid, you've somehow morphed your argument into pretending that your original point all along is that movie Captain America is some gleeful wanton murderer like The Punisher who takes pleasure in unnecessary death-dealing, which is pretty far removed from the Steve Rogers anyone else saw in the movie. It's really not hard to just say "Oops, I was mistaken," rather than just keeping on digging a hole and making the argument increasingly farcical.

And what so you mean have I found evidence of those killings in the Brubaker run? Someone posted scans of them. Then they posted scans of him decapitating someone. Or do those not count because he's angry? Do we have to find one with him gunning down begging, defenseless foes with a big grin on his face?

 

[Kanon]

I don't think he has o should have a no kill rule... I'm ok with taking lives in combat, it wouldn't be acceptable to have him kill when he can avoided.

 

[The Overlord]

Captain America also killed an ULTIMATUM terrorist in the late 80s. Its not that Cap has a good against killing, he doesn't like the type of causal killing Wolverine often does. Cap will kill as a last resort, not before that.

 

[Drz]

This argument has just taken a weird turn now. Your original point, the one we were all actually arguing about, was you saying that you liked how Captain America killed in the movies when he had a strict "no-kill" rule in the comics,

Well as an Avenger and a hero he doesn't kill, the Avengers don't kill. I made the mistake of assuming you and the rest knew in "comic book lore" Captain America killed during World War 2, but the argument is "it was a war" so he doesn't do that anymore.

then you boasting that anybody with any comics knowledge would know that Captain America has vowed never to kill in the comics.

The Avengers don't kill. :b

This was categorically proven wrong, with multiple examples from various comics.

What various examples? All i ever saw was Captain America being stressed under Red Skull's presence and making a mistake. Captain America isn't Batman who'd have a meltdown for things like kills.

And so, in your cartwheels to avoid being wrong, and in order to make it seem like your original claim about movie Cap being more extreme than comic Cap is still valid, you've somehow morphed your argument into pretending that your original point all along is that movie Captain America is some gleeful wanton murderer like The Punisher who takes pleasure in unnecessary death-dealing, which is pretty far removed from the Steve Rogers anyone else saw in the movie. It's really not hard to just say "Oops, I was mistaken," rather than just keeping on digging a hole and making the argument increasingly farcical.

I never said that lol. All i'm saying is, that for example, in the Helicarrier where Cap throws the grenade and 3-4 Hydra agents die, in a comic book he would have had thrown his shield at them, but this is a movie and the stakes are real. I'm not complaining that Captain America is a soldier, i love the Ultimate version, that's my Captain America right there, so i was musing to myself how the SHH comic book readers are going to take this movie, with Captain America killing so much, compared to comics.

It's like the internet rage when Superman killed Zod, everyone freaked out. Granted, Superman is a bigger pop culture icon. For now!

Then they posted scans of him decapitating someone.

Huh, where? Are you talking about the Vampire kill? That wasn't from Brubaker's run! :b I am asking you in regards to Brubaker's run, he did more than a few comics, he wrote Captain America for numerous years.

If Cap, an Avenger (who don't kill) would have had such a death toll casually from Brubaker's run, someone would have brought that up by now, right?

Captain America killing Baron Blood in self defense, still shows you that the man is againts killing, you see it from those panels and the internal monologue, if you had to either allow a vampire to turn you into a monster alongside Union Jack, what would you do?

Even Batman would kill in a situation like that, a comic book character does have a no-win situations, because conflict and drama are good for characters.

Man, next wensday we'll get the Director's cut of Winter Soldier comic, i hope Bru's script can convince you to see the light!

 

[RaZaTrOn]

C'mon man you've seen the movie like i did!

Spoiler

Maria Hill didn't want to blow up those Helicarriers, they we're full of HYDRA people, Cap made the Kill order.

Spoiler

Maria killed two Hydra soldiers, she shot them as they entered the room she was in. Maria didn't want to blow up the Helicarriers because Steve was still on board one with the hope that he could get through to Bucky. He gave her the order to blow up the Helicarrier with him on it and she begrudgingly followed through, her reluctance wasn't the Hydra on board but because of Captain America on board.