Infinity War Captain America|Steve Rogers - Chris Evans

[Delwin]

Yes, in TWS honesty of the Cap took a dive but it made him even more human. Most honest one but still human capable of bit of selfishness... Bucky is not just the best friend (add the shade of guilt that he lost just him) he is the last element of his old world left.

 

[TalismanRing]

I don't know, man. I don't think it would have been easy at all.

All that stuff has to do with Bucky, and Bucky is Steve's oldest friend. His actions were being driven by what was right, but by his emotions.

It would have been a far more noble if Steve was put in a situation where he had to choose between Bucky and the greater good, and chose the greater good. To be clear, I don't mean the accords represented a greater good.

As it stood, Steve didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

I do agree on Steve's PTSD and his culture shock, though.

He's always chosen the greater good though. When he jumped on the grenade. When he took the plane down and gave up Peggy, his future, his world and his life. In TWS he stands up to Fury then Pierce for the greater good. When he was resigned to staying in Sokovia until the last person came off even if it meant dying. That's what he believes in and is his first instinct doesn't mean he still isn't sacrificing constantly for the greater good.

Even in CW he doesn't chuck the greater good for Bucky. He's against The Accords pre Bucky making any appearance because he doesn't think they'll allow him to actually help people as much as he does without them.

He goes to stop Bucky since he thinks he's the one with the least chance of dying stopping him if he really has changed back. When they're captured and Bucky is arrested he asks for a lawyer but doesn't plan to break him out and is about the sign the Accords with promises of future amendments (really?) and medical care for Bucky until Wanda's house arrest and sketchy legal standing is brought up.

After Bucky is triggered again and escapes Steve's not trusting enough that he still doesn't immobilize him. Everything after that is to stop Zemo, it's not to help Bucky. He trusts his instincts that Bucky is telling the truth about the other Winter Soldiers. But he already knows it was Zemo who was disguised as Bucky and then triggered him. He's working on information Tony doesn't know or believe until he gets later confirmation about Zemo (sent by Zemo) that Ross just ignores.

The final fight isn't about just choosing one friend over another, it's stopping one friend from murdering another. In that fight Steve is thinking logically and strategically and Tony is running on pure emotion.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

He's always chosen the greater good though. When he jumped on the grenade. When he took the plane down and gave up Peggy, his future, his world and his life. In TWS he stands up to Fury then Pierce for the greater good. When he was resigned to staying in Sokovia until the last person came off even if it meant dying. That's what he believes in and is his first instinct doesn't mean he still isn't sacrificing constantly for the greater good.

Even in CW he doesn't chuck the greater good for Bucky. He's against The Accords pre Bucky making any appearance because he doesn't think they'll allow him to actually help people as much as he does without them.

He goes to stop Bucky since he thinks he's the one with the least chance of dying stopping him if he really has changed back. When they're captured and Bucky is arrested he asks for a lawyer but doesn't plan to break him out and is about the sign the Accords with promises of future amendments (really?) and medical care for Bucky until Wanda's house arrest and sketchy legal standing is brought up.

After Bucky is triggered again and escapes Steve's not trusting enough that he still doesn't immobilize him. Everything after that is to stop Zemo, it's not to help Bucky. He trusts his instincts that Bucky is telling the truth about the other Winter Soldiers. But he already knows it was Zemo who was disguised as Bucky and then triggered him. He's working on information Tony doesn't know or believe until he gets later confirmation about Zemo (sent by Zemo) that Ross just ignores.

The final fight isn't about just choosing one friend over another, it's stopping one friend from murdering another. In that fight Steve is thinking logically and strategically and Tony is running on pure emotion.

You seem to be arguing against points I didn't make. I specifically said "To be clear, I don't mean the accords represented a greater good."

A previous poster described Steve going to bat for Bucky as an example of great moral/idealistic fortitude. It wasn't that, nor was it wrong. Steve did the right thing, just not in an especially noteworthy way.

I don't like or admire Tony but I can see even him doing the same thing if, say, Rhodey was in the same position.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Steve in CATFA was great, and everything WWII-Cap should be. The movie had some problems, but they nailed everything Steve should be.

But once he gets to the present, he somehow looses some of his luster, when he should stand out more than ever.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Steve in CATFA was great, and everything WWII-Cap should be. The movie had some problems, but they nailed everything Steve should be.

But once he gets to the present, he somehow looses some of his luster, when he should stand out more than ever.

While I've loved Steve in all time periods, MCU included, I do blame Whedon for a lot of what you're saying, here. The man seemed bound and determined to write Millar's version of Cap, which is never a good idea for anybody. Where I hiring a script writer to write a Captain America script I'd hand them Waid, Gruenwald, and Englehart and, of course, the original Kirby and Simon work for inspiration, and avoid anything from 2001 onward (except for maybe Waid's Man Out of Time and his current run). Rieber and Austen, just no. Brubaker cared more about Bucky than he did Steve (and I will resent Brubaker for this until the end of my days). Remender was... okay. And the less said about Spencer the better.

The problem is that Whedon is dead set on the more modern stuff, which compared to the older stuff, is crap.

Mark Millar, patron saint of toxic masculinity.

 

[parkerpete]

While I've loved Steve in all time periods, MCU included, I do blame Whedon for a lot of what you're saying, here. The man seemed bound and determined to write Millar's version of Cap, which is never a good idea for anybody. Where I hiring a script writer to write a Captain America script I'd hand them Waid, Gruenwald, and Englehart and, of course, the original Kirby and Simon work for inspiration, and avoid anything from 2001 onward (except for maybe Waid's Man Out of Time and his current run). Rieber and Austen, just no. Brubaker cared more about Bucky than he did Steve (and I will resent Brubaker for this until the end of my days). Remender was... okay. And the less said about Spencer the better.

The problem is that Whedon is dead set on the more modern stuff, which compared to the older stuff, is crap.

Mark Millar, patron saint of toxic masculinity.

I've read the first two trades of 'The Ultimates' and I have no earthly idea where you're getting this from. Evans' Cap is humble, self-sacrificing, and compassionate. He's not remotely as macho and militaristic as Millar's Cap.

Millar may be the patron saint of toxic masculinity, but MCU Cap couldn't be farther from it. In fact, there's only one single time in the entire MCU when I can recall him acting out of anger-- when he punches a nazi computer in the screen.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I agree, I see little to no Ultimate Cap in Whedon's Cap.

 

[SteveRogers41]

I've read the first two trades of 'The Ultimates' and I have no earthly idea where you're getting this from. Evans' Cap is humble, self-sacrificing, and compassionate. He's not remotely as macho and militaristic as Millar's Cap.

Millar may be the patron saint of toxic masculinity, but MCU Cap couldn't be farther from it. In fact, there's only one single time in the entire MCU when I can recall him acting out of anger-- when he punches a nazi computer in the screen.

Ultimates!Steve was found by SHIELD and put to work right away without knowing anyone or recovery time and 616!Steve was found by the Avengers, given a home by Stark and a choice on whether he wanted to join or not. 616!Steve was given all the support he needed to adjust and had an insta family to show him around while Ultimates!Steve was shoved into the deep end of the pool right away, ignoring any sort of means of dealing with the culture shock of waking up in the future. This is why Ultimates!Steve hung out at Senior Homes. For fun.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Ultimates!Steve was found by SHIELD and put to work right away without knowing anyone or recovery time and 616!Steve was found by the Avengers, given a home by Stark and a choice on whether he wanted to join or not. 616!Steve was given all the support he needed to adjust and had an insta family to show him around while Ultimates!Steve was shoved into the deep end of the pool right away, ignoring any sort of means of dealing with the culture shock of waking up in the future. This is why Ultimates!Steve hung out at Senior Homes. For fun.

SHIELD no doubt had Cap for plot convenience. It was just easier to incorporate him into the plot and to get the Avengers all together that way. The Avengers were not instantly going to be this nice, happy family. There was bound to be growing pains. You're comparing a comic where Cap came in after the team was formed, and the story itself was in a more innocent time. But, just because it was there approach to working Cap into The Avengers doesn't mean he was Mark Millar Cap. That's a fairly shallow similarity, given Cap in the movie acts like 616 Cap. Heck, I can point to you some issues where Cap openly calls out Tony as being a bad leader in front of everyone to make a point in 616 (just as Whedon has him do when he is saying Tony is in it for himself).

 

[SteveRogers41]

SHIELD no doubt had Cap for plot convenience. It was just easier to incorporate him into the plot and to get the Avengers all together that way. The Avengers were not instantly going to be this nice, happy family. There was bound to be growing pains. You're comparing a comic where Cap came in after the team was formed, and the story itself was in a more innocent time. But, just because it was there approach to working Cap into The Avengers doesn't mean he was Mark Millar Cap. That's a fairly shallow similarity, given Cap in the movie acts like 616 Cap. Heck, I can point to you some issues where Cap openly calls out Tony as being a bad leader in front of everyone to make a point in 616 (just as Whedon has him do when he is saying Tony is in it for himself).

I don't think he's completely Millar's Cap, just that he's not straight 616!Cap either. Whedon borrowed Ultimates!Cap's origin. And his failure to click with society for a duration of time was Ultimates as well.

Whereas 616!Cap was more like...

 

[Spider-Fan]

But if Cap comes out of the ice and has no struggle coping with that, isn't that sort of boring? Again, I think it was just wise to use. You don't come out of ice after 70 years and immediately adapt.

 

[parkerpete]

I don't think he's completely Millar's Cap, just that he's not straight 616!Cap either. Whedon borrowed Ultimates!Cap's origin. And his failure to click with society for a duration of time was Ultimates as well.

This is all fine, except you didn't make this about differences in the origins; your post made it sound like Whedon used Millar's characterization of Cap and then called Millar out for 'toxic masculinity'.

Evans' Cap and 'toxic masculinity' clearly don't belong in the same paragraph together. As for the change in origin-- It's not a bad thing to borrow a few modernizing things from 'Ultimates'. Cap hanging out with seniors is charming and makes sense for both Ultimate and 616 Steve, so they used it a bit for the MCU.

The MCU incorporates lots of different bits from different iterations of the characters to make them work onscreen. That doesn't make them 'Millar's' or 'Brubaker's' version. MCU has Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, fine. That doesn't mean it has Hulk running around screaming about Freddie Prinze Jr. and eating people., or Thor as a deranged hippie.

 

[SteveRogers41]

But if Cap comes out of the ice and has no struggle coping with that, isn't that sort of boring? Again, I think it was just wise to use. You don't come out of ice after 70 years and immediately adapt.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that 616!Cap adapted with help and time. But part of the reason that Ultimates!Steve didn't adjust and was way more hardcore was because he was never really given the chance to adjust. He had no friends in the new time and he was put to work right away with zero time to decompress. Granted no other version of Cap woke to find out that an old girlfriend had been pregnant when Steve went in the ice and their son grew up to become Red Skull, either, so there's that. Oh and that his supposed best friend Bucky Barnes married said girlfriend and had been step-father to Red Skull-in-training. so that explains a lot of why Ultimates!Steve was the Way He Is™ as well.

Personally I would have loved to see more 'Man Out of Time' adjustment to the future in the MCU, which they just kind of breezed through it. But then I'm under the impression that you can never have too much Cap.

And Civil War, as a movie, would have been far more impactful if Tony and Steve had the same origin as they do in the 616, which was that Tony pretty much adopted Steve and made introducing Steve to the future his personal project. The two of them in the MCU, like the Ultimates, have been presented as antagonistic from the get-go, which made Civil War kind of empty because of course Cap would choose Bucky over Tony in such circumstances, of course he would.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that 616!Cap adapted with help and time. But part of the reason that Ultimates!Steve didn't adjust and was way more hardcore was because he was never really given the chance to adjust. He had no friends in the new time and he was put to work right away with zero time to decompress. Granted no other version of Cap woke to find out that an old girlfriend had been pregnant when Steve went in the ice and their son grew up to become Red Skull, either, so there's that. Oh and that his supposed best friend Bucky Barnes married said girlfriend and had been step-father to Red Skull-in-training. so that explains a lot of why Ultimates!Steve was the Way He Is™ as well.

Personally I would have loved to see more 'Man Out of Time' adjustment to the future in the MCU, which they just kind of breezed through it. But then I'm under the impression that you can never have too much Cap.

And Civil War, as a movie, would have been far more impactful if Tony and Steve had the same origin as they do in the 616, which was that Tony pretty much adopted Steve and made introducing Steve to the future his personal project. The two of them in the MCU, like the Ultimates, have been presented as antagonistic from the get-go, which made Civil War kind of empty because of course Cap would choose Bucky over Tony in such circumstances, of course he would.

The MCU is not the 616, though. There are elements present that just make them different. Like, Tony had no reason to hate Steve because his relationship with Howard was not nearly as toxic (just 1 example). Further, comics get 12 or more outings a year, if you include secondary series and solo outings on top of things like The Avengers, to tell stories. They do it monthly. The MCU cannot produce content that quickly, so dynamics cannot always be as well laid out.

The MCU has sprinkled in elements of the Ultimate books, but they have firmly held the 616 spirit and tone. Just because they use certain story points from the Ultimates from Cap doesn't mean that's what Whedon was adapting. Largely, what they used was what was best for plot convenience and for how things fit in the MCU framework.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This is all fine, except you didn't make this about differences in the origins; your post made it sound like Whedon used Millar's characterization of Cap and then called Millar out for 'toxic masculinity'.

Evans' Cap and 'toxic masculinity' clearly don't belong in the same paragraph together. As for the change in origin-- It's not a bad thing to borrow a few modernizing things from 'Ultimates'. Cap hanging out with seniors is charming and makes sense for both Ultimate and 616 Steve, so they used it a bit for the MCU.

The MCU incorporates lots of different bits from different iterations of the characters to make them work onscreen. That doesn't make them 'Millar's' or 'Brubaker's' version. MCU has Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, fine. That doesn't mean it has Hulk running around screaming about Freddie Prinze Jr. and eating people., or Thor as a deranged hippie.

Exactly! Agreed with this

Hulk was the result of making a super soldier like in the Ultimates, but TIH version is not a horny cannibal, like you said.

 

[SteveRogers41]

This is all fine, except you didn't make this about differences in the origins; your post made it sound like Whedon used Millar's characterization of Cap and then called Millar out for 'toxic masculinity'.

Evans' Cap and 'toxic masculinity' clearly don't belong in the same paragraph together. As for the change in origin-- It's not a bad thing to borrow a few modernizing things from 'Ultimates'. Cap hanging out with seniors is charming and makes sense for both Ultimate and 616 Steve, so they used it a bit for the MCU.

The MCU incorporates lots of different bits from different iterations of the characters to make them work onscreen. That doesn't make them 'Millar's' or 'Brubaker's' version. MCU has Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury, fine. That doesn't mean it has Hulk running around screaming about Freddie Prinze Jr. and eating people., or Thor as a deranged hippie.

"There's only one God ma'am"

"Language"

....616!Cap would not say these things, he's not a square. That's Ultimates!Cap through and through. Unless, of course, you're reading DeMatteis, who once wrote a panel of Steve criticizing Indiana Jones as not being wholesome enough (my eyes!!! - don't read DeMatteis... except for the Arnie Roth stuff).

 

[SteveRogers41]

The MCU is not the 616, though. There are elements present that just make them different. Like, Tony had no reason to hate Steve because his relationship with Howard was not nearly as toxic (just 1 example). Further, comics get 12 or more outings a year, if you include secondary series and solo outings on top of things like The Avengers, to tell stories. They do it monthly. The MCU cannot produce content that quickly, so dynamics cannot always be as well laid out.

The MCU has sprinkled in elements of the Ultimate books, but they have firmly held the 616 spirit and tone. Just because they use certain story points from the Ultimates from Cap doesn't mean that's what Whedon was adapting. Largely, what they used was what was best for plot convenience and for how things fit in the MCU framework.

I disagree. In my mind Whedon, while yes, he did capture 616!Steve's compassion and willingness to do the right thing, he wrote Steve as far more... goody-two-shoes (which Markus and McFeely desperately tried to correct) than 616!Steve actually is. And goody-two-shoes is what Ultimates!Steve is, minus the excessive violence. Basically Ultimates!Steve acted like the 'I used to walk to school in 20 feet of snow, uphill both ways and never lied about chopping down the cherry tree, and I go to church every Sunday' kind of person (but with punching). 616!Steve is not. He makes old man jokes, but he doesn't act married to time past.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I disagree. In my mind Whedon, while yes, he did capture 616!Steve's compassion and willingness to do the right thing, he wrote Steve as far more... goody-two-shoes (which Markus and McFeely desperately tried to correct) than 616!Steve actually is. And goody-two-shoes is what Ultimates!Steve is, minus the excessive violence. Basically Ultimates!Steve acted like the 'I used to walk to school in 20 feet of snow, uphill both ways and never lied about chopping down the cherry tree, and I go to church every Sunday' kind of person (but with punching). 616!Steve is not. He makes old man jokes, but he doesn't act married to time past.

I don't read that as an Ultimate Cap thing, I read that as an MCU thing. See in Thor: Ragnarok, he tells Dr. Strange he would have sent him "an electronic letter, it's called an EMAIL!" and then Strange asks is he has a computer and Thor says "No, what for?" It's par for the course for the MCU. It's just less noticeable in Cap's sequels than The Avengers because Cap's sequels have a darker tone.

 

[parkerpete]

In my mind Whedon...wrote Steve as far more... goody-two-shoes (which Markus and McFeely desperately tried to correct) than 616!Steve actually is. And goody-two-shoes is what Ultimates!Steve is, minus the excessive violence..

I'm sorry, this makes no sense. You contradict yourself inside that last sentence alone.

If you're arguing that MCU Steve isn't exactly like 616 Steve, OK fine, no reasonable person will argue otherwise.

But you started off arguing that MCU Steve is modeled after Millar's Steve, and that clearly just doesn't hold water. Maybe just admit you overreached with the comparison a bit?

 

[SteveRogers41]

I'm sorry, this makes no sense. You contradict yourself inside that last sentence alone.

If you're arguing that MCU Steve isn't exactly like 616 Steve, OK fine, no reasonable person will argue otherwise.

But you started off arguing that MCU Steve is modeled after Millar's Steve, and that clearly just doesn't hold water. Maybe just admit you overreached with the comparison a bit?

I'm entitled to my opinion. And in my opinion Whedon infused Ultimates!Steve into his interpretation of Cap. You do not get to dictate to me how *I* view or interpret a film version of a character versus the source material. Seriously. WTF.

He is modeled after Millar's Steve. There's more to Millar's Steve than JUST excessive violence, that's what I was trying to say. Millar's Steve is a goody-two-shoes who goes to church and says things like "Language". The 616!Steve doesn't do any of that. And I'm not changing my mind on this because you disagree with me. Screw that.

 

[parkerpete]

I'm entitled to my opinion. And in my opinion Whedon infused Ultimates!Steve into his interpretation of Cap. You do not get to dictate to me how *I* view or interpret a film version of a character versus the source material. Seriously. WTF.

He is modeled after Millar's Steve. There's more to Millar's Steve than JUST excessive violence, that's what I was trying to say. Millar's Steve is a goody-two-shoes who goes to church and says things like "Language". The 616!Steve doesn't do any of that. And I'm not changing my mind on this because you disagree with me. Screw that.

 

[SteveRogers41]

I'm entitled to my opinion. And in my opinion Whedon infused Ultimates!Steve into his interpretation of Cap. You do not get to dictate to me how *I* view or interpret a film version of a character versus the source material. Seriously. WTF.

He is modeled after Millar's Steve. There's more to Millar's Steve than JUST excessive violence, that's what I was trying to say. Millar's Steve is a goody-two-shoes who goes to church and says things like "Language". The 616!Steve doesn't do any of that. And I'm not changing my mind on this because you disagree with me. Screw that.

SDCC Markus and McFeely panel 2016:


McFeely: We don’t think of him quite as square as he was in the Avengers.
Interviewer: Darker edges basically?
Markus: He is… he’s a little more… he is a boy scout in the Avengers. And I don’t think our Steve ever was… that… pure. I mean, he’s pure, that’s the whole basis of him, but he’s not naïve.
McFeely: That said, if I had written “there’s only one god, ma'am and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t dress like that” I would be really happy.
Markus: See, I would have cut it.

 

[Spider-Fan]

SDCC Markus and McFeely panel 2016:


McFeely: We don’t think of him quite as square as he was in the Avengers.
Interviewer: Darker edges basically?
Markus: He is… he’s a little more… he is a boy scout in the Avengers. And I don’t think our Steve ever was… that… pure. I mean, he’s pure, that’s the whole basis of him, but he’s not naïve.
McFeely: That said, if I had written “there’s only one god, ma'am and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t dress like that” I would be really happy.
Markus: See, I would have cut it.

But even in this excerpt, one of them actually liked one of the lines in question. Once again, I think Whedon's writing of Cap was very in line with the MCU version and the MCU humor. I don't see that as being too far removed from "So, do you two....fondu?" I don't feel we see any of that as much in TWS or CW because tonally, it doesn't work. But, Whedon's movies were lighter and had more banter. Again, see my quote by Thor above. It's just MCU humor. I'm okay with it.

 

[parkerpete]

 

[SteveRogers41]

But even in this excerpt, one of them actually liked one of the lines in question. Once again, I think Whedon's writing of Cap was very in line with the MCU version and the MCU humor. I don't see that as being too far removed from "So, do you two....fondu?" I don't feel we see any of that as much in TWS or CW because tonally, it doesn't work. But, Whedon's movies were lighter and had more banter. Again, see my quote by Thor above. It's just MCU humor. I'm okay with it.

Which is cool. Thank you for not trying to force your view of it on me. I get and understand where you're coming from even as I see it slightly different.

I just knew that Ultimates!Steve goes to church every Sunday and hangs out in Senior homes and is way more uptight than 616!Steve, which is why I drew the conclusions I have. Whedon, and this is not just with his work in film, but his work on the X-Men as well, seems far more married to current material than any previous material from which to draw inspiration. And at the time he was writing Avengers, which would be around 2010-2011, was the post Civil War era of strong Millar influence. One could argue that the entire Heroic Age in comics consisted of a more linear, stereotypical, one dimensional approach to characterization.

I'm not dissing Whedon. I was a Buffy fan back in the day. I'm just saying that I prefer Markus and McFeely's interpretation of the character than what Whedon did. And I see Millar in Whedon's work, because Millar, even moreso than Whedon, was all about defining a character by stereotypes. Steve is the Man Out of Time and Millar took that to extremes. Just like he took Tony's alcoholism and womanizing to extremes. Just like he took Thor's sort of... cerebralism to extremes. Plus, it was Ultimates!Clint who had a family. 616!Clint is a walking disaster, and I say this lovingly, of course. These little things add up to make me think that Whedon drew heavily from Ultimates.