Captain Marvel General Discussion and Speculation - Part 9

[TWayneP]

Damn I can’t imagine watching any movie 8 times in a short period like that, and 3 times in one day back to back.

I'm a movie freak haha. I've done it before with my favorite movies (mostly Batman), like Dark Knight Rises, I watch it close to 15 times a year haha. More when it first came to blu ray, I had that thing on loop.

I have a feeling I'll just buy Captain Marvel and leave it on on loop as well, watch my favorite parts whenever I want. I just wish Disney would get their crap together and release it with the proper IMAX style aspect ratio

It's also different in a theater, because you're fully engaged in the experience, so it's pretty easy for me to actually "watch it" 3 times in a row. It proves my love for the movie to me. That the movie is well paced, entertaining, and connects with me emotionally, as I've had a response every single time (since the 2nd view).

 

[Web-Head]

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Welcome to the age of super heroines on the big screen:

Spoiler

 

[Aximili86]

Pretty lame. There have been female superheroes on-screen pretty much as long as they've been making superhero movies.

It's just that they're big-budget cultural phenomenons now.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Pretty lame. There have been female superheroes on-screen pretty much as long as they've been making superhero movies.

It's just that they're big-budget cultural phenomenons now.

Uh huh... Maybe for you. But for others we know that there was a 33 year gap between Supergirl as a feature film and Wonder Woman. Many find it heartening we are seeing these characters in the forefront in such a frequent manner and not in drips and drabs over the course of decades. In the age of super hero films being so big within the pop culture an the culture at large some actually care about showing that the super hero ideal belongs to everyone. This is no longer a novelty, no longer characters as merely background characters or love interests for male leads. I get it... You GOTTA be that guy. You just have to chime in on anything that reeks of "the multiculti/diversity agenda" for ****s and giggles. You do you. Others actually have good reasons to care, and applaud that four decades after Princess Leia there's a plethora of female characters taking prominence and shown to be the heroic equals of their male counterparts to inspire and thrill young and old alike. Sorry if that's lame. But then, I'm pretty confident you didn't bother to even watch a fan video made by someone that obviously loves super heroes and their worlds and wanted to put together a fun and inspiring tribute. Showing passion for the very thing this online community that you've chosen to take part in? SOOOOO LAAAAAAME.


PS: Before you or anyone else starts in... No. It's obviously not some misandrist piece of propaganda but then there are those that will willfully mistake anything that says great and accomplished women deserve the same respect and admiration that great men take for granted as some kind of conspiracy to create some fascist gynocracy. I feel sorry for people like that.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, 'cause the X-Men team haven't been pretty much half female between those two polar extreme points of Supergirl & Wonder Woman or anything. We didn't get Sue Storm on screen 15 years ago, there wasn't an Elektra or Catwoman solo movie, none of that. Nah. Outside of strictly "superhero" stuff there's been Red Sonja and the like too, along with the obvious female-fronted action movie fare with Ripley & Sarah Connor and all.

Just because the movies like Elektra & Catwoman sucked, doesn't negate this not being a new phenomenon. It's just been latched onto as part of the pat-yourself-on-the-back-we're-awesome smug stuff now. The big-budget female-fronted superhero movies with some actual quality to them is a little different, that's recent and a good thing, but in terms of quality a great many of the male-fronted superhero movies from those previous periods blew chunks too. Superheroes and similar female genre-fare on screen, that stuff goes back as long as the movies have been a thing.

 

[Patrick77]

Well, as somebody said earlier in another thread (Silver Surfer, I think?), having female protagonists, badass ladies, some sort of "girl power" element, and related stuff, in pop culture and geek culture, is not completely new, obviously.

If anything, like he said, there's an entire generation of male geeks who basically expect it. Not all of that is good, or not great. It's a mixed bag. Some of it is pandering, or almost like tokenism. Trinity in the Matrix is sometimes cited as a example. Not that there's anything wrong with the character in the strong sense, and not that she can't be considered awesome in a lot of ways, but that character profile became almost like a slot to be filled in this type of entertainment for a while.

And then there's the James Cameron version of it. Ripley, Sarah Connor. Again, not necessarily "bad" in the strong sense, or anything like that. But limiting. Very focused on being tough and strong as the primary thing.

There's also a lot of fan service, "girls with guns," violence as empowerment, etc.

So it's an on-going process. But I don't think that it's much of a stretch to suggest that films like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel do represent something new. Also Black Panther. The female characters in that movie were a strong point. Okoye, Shuri, Nakia.

 

[Aximili86]

What was wrong with Trinity in the Matrix? Haven't heard that one before.

As for the trope of "the tough chick" being limiting, ehh, I dunno. That's pretty much all I got from Carol here, the headstrong snarky chick showing everyone else what's what. Which is fine, but that's just not all that different from the Sarah Connor or Ripley thing, just...she's funnier.

Wonder Woman's portrayal seemed a little more layered though, the tough fighter-chick elements but with that softer & more thoughtful/philosophical side to her too.

And yeah, Panther's full of interesting female characters with some agency. Which is a good thing. I just mean, like...so was X2, 16 years ago. But we didn't have millennials with a philosophy minor and a twitter page yet, so...

 

[Patrick77]

What was wrong with Trinity in the Matrix? Haven't heard that one before.

You can google "Trinity Syndrome," for example, if you so desire. It's not that there was something profoundly wrong with Trinity as an individual character, but more that she became emblematic of a certain tendency.

As to the rest of it, there aren't many trends in pop culture that emerge completely out of nowhere. There's almost always going to be some sort of gradual progress or evolution.

 

[Aximili86]

Hm, just took a look at that, seems like a bit of a reach. "Subservient" to Neo in terms of driving the plot forward? I...guess? Only every other male character in the movie is too, so...

And that notion could hardly be applied to the various other female-led genre movies with a woman as the lead, going back decades.

 

[Patrick77]

Hm, just took a look at that, seems like a bit of a reach. "Subservient" to Neo in terms of driving the plot forward? I...guess? Only every other male character in the movie is too, so...

Well, look, I'm not the one driving these conversations, really. My point above was more like an attempt to summarize a bunch of stuff that has been said on the topic.

In the case of Trinity, the point, as I understand it, is basically that she has a really awesome introductory scene, and then fades into the background as an accessory to the male lead.

Yeah, there might be some male characters in supporting roles, but there are more male characters overall, the protagonist is male, some of the other male characters play crucial roles (like Morpheus). And this leads to the criticism that Trinity is a bit of a token "strong female character," who never really lives up to her potential.

That's part of what Captain Marvel has to say about Carol Danvers.

Spoiler: Mild Spoilers

She starts out in this limited role as a warrior serving the interests of a society that is actually exploiting her, but she gradually unlocks her potential, and that process has to do with confronting the limitations that have been placed on her by that society.

 

[Aximili86]

I don't really get that Trinity thing personally, but whatever, to each their own I guess. She's still pretty major among the good-guy supporting characters, second only to Morpheus and basically getting more/bigger action scenes than Morpheus does. And she's hardly portrayed as some damsel-in-distress, Neo saves her like once, which is the same amount of times she saves him.

If we're getting into "tokens", too, pretty much everyone in that movie's a "token" of some sort (this isn't a criticism). The skeezy scheming techie, the good techie, the mousey crude teen, the philosophizin' mentor, the mustache-twirling villain. Neo as internet-era-Jesus. At a certain point that's just kinda archetypes, it all applies to male-fronted movies same as female-fronted ones.

 

[Patrick77]

That's the idea. Not that Trinity wasn't cool, or that people didn't like the character. It's the opposite: she's pretty awesome, and people liked her a lot. It's just an acknowledgement of the reality that this became a certain type, or a slot to be filled (partly because people liked it).

A lot of these questions are not really good/bad sort of questions. Some of them, maybe, but frequently it's more about pushing the envelope, or increasing variety, or whatever.

People liked Sarah Connor, too. There will be excitement when she makes a return, which I think is happening? But *as a type*, or as a model to be followed, it's a little limiting, which is a somewhat different point.

 

[Aximili86]

But like...how is Carol any different to that in this movie?

She's badass-action-chick-who-takes-no-crap-from-the-guys personified. Which is cool. But if "limiting" gets applied to one, surely it applies here too. She's not exactly some layered three-dimensional character study in the movie - might happen in sequels, but as of now she's pretty much Girl Power cliche.

Which is fine. Just not new.

 

[kvz5]

The EG clip they showed at CinemaCon (with more Carol):

(Spoilers obviously)

It’s the scene that ends with the Carol/Thor scene from the trailer. I love

Spoiler

Thor... And oh Rhodey!

 

[Patrick77]

But like...how is Carol any different to that in this movie?

Well, this has been discussed at some length elsewhere, but

Spoiler

it's a movie about a character who is being limited by a certain type of social conditioning reinforced by a manipulative false mentor relationship. She gradually rediscovers the truth about herself and the larger conflict.

So it's about escaping the relatively limited role that has been assigned to her by the Kree.

The story deals with the character discovering her potential, basically.

That's almost the opposite of what has often been said about characters like Trinity, which is one reason why I mentioned that originally. Namely that Trinity makes a big impression and has a cool opening scene, but her potential is never fully realized after that.

Captain Marvel is about the lead character escaping the box, or restrictive role, to which society has reduced her. I'm summarizing, but that is the general idea.

 

[Aximili86]

That seems like just the plot cliche being inverted, rather than anything to do with Carol or the portrayal.

 

[TWayneP]

Thought this should be shared and spread as much as possible. Click to read her full comments, which I echo entirely. I've been harping about Carol for weeks now. Her character/performance/story is so freaking refreshing and well done. I've seen Us, I've seen Shazam! I've seen everything else, but I'm STILL thinking about Captain Marvel everyday. A lot of folks are gonna sleep on this movie for many years... and not even give it a chance.

 

[Patrick77]

In the movie itself, there are at least 3 layers that I can see:

Spoiler

1) Carol's story on earth, prior to being empowered by the explosion. She escapes an abusive or at least restrictive family situation and finds a home with the Rambeau family. This is depicted as liberating: she experiences joy, support and a friendly rivalry, while dealing with sexism in the military, especially the idea that she is too emotional to be a pilot.

2) Carol is abducted by the Kree and goes through a process of indoctrination, convincing her that her powers are not her own, and that she must limit herself in various ways to be an effective warrior against the Skrulls. Especially: limiting her emotions. We see flashes of Carol's more rambunctious personality, but some aspects of her old self are being repressed.

3) With help from Maria, Monica and Talos, Carol is able to escape the Kree conditioning, remember her past experiences and trust her emotions, especially compassion for the Skrulls and anger at her manipulative false mentor (plus the Supreme Intelligence). This allows Carol to unlock her potential, which had never been fully realized previously, either on earth or with the Kree, due to the systems of repression in both societies.

Granted, that's still a summary. And it's presented in a non-linear way in the movie. We have to piece it together along with Carol, in certain ways. Having said that:

Spoiler

It's clearly a story about someone liberating herself from various forms of repression and manipulation, with the help of people who have also suffered from those repressive systems.

The point about Trinity Syndrome being inverted is merely an additional layer, more like a passing thought on my part. It's not the primary thing.

Edit: The thread linked above really does a better job of digging into some of the relevant issues.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I'm not sure how people didn't think she had an arc at all. It's pretty clear that her journey to finding her past is her arc.

 

[InCali]

yikes lol now i liked captain marvel a solid super hero flick but even i will admit she is by far the weakest lead actor of the mcu

hope russo make her way better

Could not disagree more. I've said before that Marvel has built a very impressive stable of actors, but Brie is nowhere near being a weak link in that lineup. To say she's a weaker lead actor than, say, Hemsworth or Evans (just to name a couple), rather boggles my mind. It's all subjective, but IMO, she's on par with the best they have (my personal belief being RDJ, Cumberbatch, and Boseman are maybe a cut above the rest as far as actors go; although Ruffalo is a very accomplished actor).

 

[Spider-Fan]

I say the following by starting with I love the Russos, but let's not act like they "fix" everyone and are the masters of all characters. Best example being Vision. Vision has regressed each movie from AoU onward and they clearly don't know what to do with him. Their handling of Rhodey I also find subpar. He was just sort of a jerk to Cap in every scene in CW, and just seemed like he loathed him for some reason even before he violated the Accords, and in IW he goes from being "I may have got crippled, but it was a fight we needed to fight" to being "I regret ever signing those Accords, I love Captain America!!!" So the Russos are not perfect. But I will again emphasize, their MCU work is amazing and I love all their films. I am just sick of this notion that no one knows how to use characters other than them people seem to have developed.

Also, they also didn't fix Thor. Taika did.

 

[Web-Head]

I say the following by starting with I love the Russos, but let's not act like they "fix" everyone and are the masters of all characters. Best example being Vision. Vision has regressed each movie from AoU onward and they clearly don't know what to do with him. Their handling of Rhodey I also find subpar. He was just sort of a jerk to Cap in every scene in CW, and just seemed like he loathed him for some reason even before he violated the Accords, and in IW he goes from being "I may have got crippled, but it was a fight we needed to fight" to being "I regret ever signing those Accords, I love Captain America!!!" So the Russos are not perfect. But I will again emphasize, their MCU work is amazing and I love all their films. I am just sick of this notion that no one knows how to use characters other than them people seem to have developed.

Also, they also didn't fix Thor. Taika did.

Brie filmed Captain Marvel after Endgame as well, so it's a bit of a different scenario here. They didn't have anything to "fix" and still don't, imo

 

[Spider-Fan]

Brie filmed Captain Marvel after Endgame as well, so it's a bit of a different scenario here. They didn't have anything to "fix" and still don't, imo

I completely agree. I thought Carol was done well in the movie and I quite liked Brie. Like you, I don't think she needs to be "fixed" and whatever role she has in Endgame I am sure will serve the story. I am just hoping they don't "Vision" her, LOL!

 

[Silver Surfer]