Conan - Part 1

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The Arnold movie is not Conan's story, and the Arnold Conan is not REH's character. It's that simple. Not a hate for what the movie is, but a disappointment for what it is not.
 
There's a huge gulf between REH's Conan and Milius's Conan, not the same guy at all.

As for using the wrestlers as examples of athleticism. I'm not a wrestling fan so I'll have to defer to your judgment. But Conan is not going to have the bodybuilder/wrestler physique with all perfect proportions throughout his build. He doesn't have a gym with a huge mirror to check his development and a nautilus machine to work on being symmetrical.

Conan should be big and built. But he shouldn't look like he could walk onto a Pro bodybuilding stage and win a trophy. His build would reflect a physique developed in the hills of Cimmeria climbing rocks and stuff like that, functional fitness. I hate to bring myself into my posts, but I was on my college swim team and I teach karate so my physique reflects that, I've got huge legs.
 
ChickenScratch said:
There's a huge gulf between REH's Conan and Milius's Conan, not the same guy at all.

As for using the wrestlers as examples of athleticism. I'm not a wrestling fan so I'll have to defer to your judgment. But Conan is not going to have the bodybuilder/wrestler physique with all perfect proportions throughout his build. He doesn't have a gym with a huge mirror to check his development and a nautilus machine to work on being symmetrical.

Conan should be big and built. But he shouldn't look like he could walk onto a Pro bodybuilding stage and win a trophy. His build would reflect a physique developed in the hills of Cimmeria climbing rocks and stuff like that, functional fitness. I hate to bring myself into my posts, but I was on my college swim team and I teach karate so my physique reflects that, I've got huge legs.
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Ah, but in Milius' movie he doesn't spend his life in the hills of Cimmeria climbing rocks and chasing deer. He spends years chained to The Wheel Of Pain, grinding grain into flour for the Vaniir.

Sure, technically that kind of labour wouldn't give you the full body workout you'd need to get a bodybuilder/pro-wrestler physique, but it's implied in the film that it does. Then there's Conan's time as a pit fighter. Swinging those swords and battle axes was hard work. And his downtime wasn't just spent reading scrolls of poetry and phylosophy, and having sex with beautiful women. He also trained with the more experienced pit fighters, so that he would win his fights on more than just brute strength and courage. The novelization of the movie goes into far more detail than what they were able to show in the movie.

So choosing a bodybuilder to play Conan is a logical choice.

And I know Milius' Conan isn't REH's Conan. Frank Frazetta's illustrations of Conan aren't REH's Conan either. Stan Lee's Conan isn't REH's Conan. The 1982 Conan The Barbarian is John Milius' interpretation of REH's, Stan Lee's, and Frank Frazetta's contributions to who Conan is. And I think he did a damn fine job.
 
So many things wrong with that post. It's too late and too tired to go through it all, maybe i'll update it when I wake up.

Firstly, equating wrestlers movement and fighting style to Conans is wrong. That is the exact opposite... Also, slow, orchestrated and rehearsed fighting coreography is not the same as an agile, ferocious warrior born in battle.

Also, I did watch the movie, and guess what? Conan wasn't 'taken east and taught', he learnt from experience himself. He learnt pure, ruthless efficiency in combat from a very early age by Cimmerians, unique fighters and warriors.

Also, if in all your readings, Conan's voice is in an Austrian accent for you, then the character has already been ruined for you and you'll never be able to enjoy him the way REH intended, because you're just picturing Arnie, a vastly dumed down version of the character.

I don't hate the movie just because I hate Arnie, I love Arnie, and I like the movie as a film. I just hate it as a Conan film, because that is not Conan.
 
Wolvieboy17 said:
Yeah, I can dig that. I just wish it wasn't 'Conan'. It could have been anyone. He certainly wasn't a Cimmerian, that's for sure.

You know what bugged me about Arnie the most? In almost every REH Conan tale, some 'civilised' person see's Conan and says something like "What will you do, you're just another stupid, ignorant Barbarian" and then Conan would gut him and say "Fool, i'm a Cimmerian!". With the REH Conan, it was always awesome to see how underestimated he was, but with the Arnie Conan, that would pretty much be an accurate summary. He's not even a skilled fighter, he just seems to have raw strength. Arnie Conan is just the kind of enemy that REH Conan would fight circles around.
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I do not want to come across as getting down on you for this, but you should also take into consideration the time this movie came out. The sword fighting in this film was fantastic for it's time. Does it compare to modern films? No, but does anything from that era? No, but someone your age would not understand this as you did not live through these eras of film. In 25 years when films are different and pepople are picking apart movies made in 2002, you will understand.

For instance, look at the difference in the lightsaber duals in the Star Wars films made in the late 70's early 80's compared to the ones made in the late 90's and early 00. completely different as film evolves, stunts evolve and the demands on the filmmakers evolve to what the audience expects from them.

Having been alive and old enough to see Conan in the theater, I can assure you the fighting in that movie was state of the art. Does it still hold up today? yeah it is still enjoyable but not what a modern audience would expect in an R rated film. Having been alive and old to see both Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, again they were great but those fights are crap nowadays.

You will be saying the same thing about films nowadays in 30 years. Trust me.
 
Shon, you really don't need to condescend me, I understand exactly how to look at a film within the context of when it was made. Besides the fact that I only missed the film release by a few years, it doesn't matter WHEN it was made if you're comparing it to the source material. I'm not saying he wasn't convincincly Conan because there were no cutting edge costumes or special effects, nothing about his performance was the REH Conan at all.

I loved the Arnie movies when I first saw them when I was about 8 (it was the first violent movie I ever saw with my big brother :P) then years later I read REH as a teenager and loved the character. When I went back to the movies, I still loved them as a fun, 80's Arnie Snakes n' Swords flick, but hated them as a Conan film.

I'm not talking about is a failure of a film, since it clearly did well and is held very dearly in the hears of many film nerds, myself included. I'm merely calling it a failure of an adaptation.

This isn't exclusive to Conan for me. The Tomas Jane Punisher movie is another one. I love that as a fun, revenge flick but hate it as a Punisher movie.
 
Wolvieboy17 said:
So many things wrong with that post. It's too late and too tired to go through it all, maybe i'll update it when I wake up.

Firstly, equating wrestlers movement and fighting style to Conans is wrong. That is the exact opposite... Also, slow, orchestrated and rehearsed fighting choreography is not the same as an agile, ferocious warrior born in battle.
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My point was that people posting on this thread seem to be of the mindset that in order for Conan to be as agile as a panther that they need to cast someone slim but a well defined physique. Others, like myself, are of the mindset that Conan should look like one of Frank Frazetta's paintings, which pretty much means casting a bodybuilder or a pro wrestler. What people are neglecting to realize is that YOU CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. There are big, muscular, near 300 pounders who can move around (and sword fight) like people half their size. YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK FOR THEM. Look at The Rock in The Scorpion King for example. If he were caucasion, he'd be a great Conan.
Wolvieboy17 said:
Also, I did watch the movie, and guess what? Conan wasn't 'taken east and taught', he learnt from experience himself. He learnt pure, ruthless efficiency in combat from a very early age by Cimmerians, unique fighters and warriors.
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Really? Are you sure you were watching Conan? That's not how I remember the movie (note I'm talking about the movie, not the original stories or the comics). As I recall, he was chained to The Wheel Of Pain when he was 10, and stayed chained to it for 20 years. Then he was sold off as a pit fighter. Then after several victories (and this is a direct quote from the movie)

"Soon his victories could not easily be counted. He was taken to the east, a GREAT prize, where the war masters taught him the deepest secrets."

(It's at this point the sensei corrects Conan's stance with the sword and slaps his face for getting it wrong. Then he karate kicks the other student in the nads for pitching a tent in his shorts while looking at Conan's ass)

Do you want me to continue? I have the whole movie committed to memory. I can write out the whole script for you if you like.
Wolvieboy17 said:
Also, if in all your readings, Conan's voice is in an Austrian accent for you, then the character has already been ruined for you and you'll never be able to enjoy him the way REH intended, because you're just picturing Arnie, a vastly dumed down version of the character.
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Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
Wolvieboy17 said:
I don't hate the movie just because I hate Arnie, I love Arnie, and I like the movie as a film. I just hate it as a Conan film, because that is not Conan.
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Well, in order to make a Conan movie to your expectations, the animators from the Conan The Adventurer animated series would have to team up with the animators from Heavy Metal and do an animated feature film which directly translates the original stories onto the screen.

But thanks for at least admitting that Conan The Barbarian was an awesome movie, even if you don't think it was a good Conan movie.
 
Thundarr said:
My point was that people posting on this thread seem to be of the mindset that in order for Conan to be as agile as a panther that they need to cast someone slim but a well defined physique. Others, like myself, are of the mindset that Conan should look like one of Frank Frazetta's paintings, which pretty much means casting a bodybuilder or a pro wrestler. What people are neglecting to realize is that YOU CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. There are big, muscular, near 300 pounders who can move around (and sword fight) like people half their size. YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK FOR THEM. Look at The Rock in The Scorpion King for example. If he were caucasion, he'd be a great Conan.
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This right here is why I will never take anything you say seriously. The moment you've admitted to thinking the aesthetic and build of the character is more important about the way he's portrayed as a PERSON by an actor, or the aspects of his character you want to see fleshed out, is the moment I see you really don't give a **** about the character himself. What you want basically is big, pretty MTV video of hulking people dressed as Conan fighting things. Saying the Rock would make a good Conan? There is nothing earthy, or raw or gutteral about him. He looks like a tough guy. Which is all wrestling is, getting paid to act like a 'fighter'.

Thundarr said:
Really? Are you sure you were watching Conan? That's not how I remember the movie (note I'm talking about the movie, not the original stories or the comics). As I recall, he was chained to The Wheel Of Pain when he was 10, and stayed chained to it for 20 years. Then he was sold off as a pit fighter. Then after several victories (and this is a direct quote from the movie)

"Soon his victories could not easily be counted. He was taken to the east, a GREAT prize, where the war masters taught him the deepest secrets."

(It's at this point the sensei corrects Conan's stance with the sword and slaps his face for getting it wrong. Then he karate kicks the other student in the nads for pitching a tent in his shorts while looking at Conan's ass)

Do you want me to continue? I have the whole movie committed to memory. I can write out the whole script for you if you like.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have seen the movie. I was talking about the REAL Conan. He didn't need to be taught by magical fighters of the east, he was born a fighter. That's what sets Cimmerians apart from others. If he needs to be trained in the east by someone else, it immediately stops him from being 'unique' as a lone Cimmerian against other races. That is a very strong angle to his character. He's not just some tough guy.

Thundarr said:
Well that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
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No, that is actually fact. If you had read all of REH's original stories as well as his essays on the Hyperboria and Conan, you would know fully well what Howards vision of the character was, how he represented society at the time and how the Arnie version is nothing like that. You keep professing to love 'Conan' yet you've shown no complexities of understanding him fundemntally as a fictional character other than physical attributes.

Thundarr said:
Well, in order to make a Conan movie to your expectations, the animators from the Conan The Adventurer animated series would have to team up with the animators from Heavy Metal and do an animated feature film which directly translates the original stories onto the screen.

But thanks for at least admitting that Conan The Barbarian was an awesome movie, even if you don't think it was a good Conan movie.
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I've never claimed to not like the Arnie Conan films, I love em, I just have to tell myself it's not actually THE Conan when I watch them, because as adaptations they are horrible, but as a fun 80's fantasy flick, they rule. I mean, Arnie punches a camel in the face! Who couldn't love that?

Also...

Thundarr said:
So choosing a bodybuilder to play Conan is a logical choice.
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I would have thought since it's a film, choosing an actor would be a logical choice?
 
The other thing is, those fantasy comics, especially art by Frazetta, are a different type of fantasy. They're designed to be over the top and heavily stylised, like 300 or something. It's not a realistic, literal translation. There was nothing that over the top about REH's Conan, he was very much an exceptional person living in a world of ordinary people. To use a stylised fantasy artwork as what Conan should realistically look like is preposterous.

We're talking about adapting REH's character, which is what we know are the film makers intentions, so why are you so intent on actually ignoring the original source material in aid of your sources that all came AFTERWARDS?
 
I get the feeling there are a lot of so-called Conan fans who haven't bothered to read the original stories.
 
Just a reminder to everyone.......even if you disagree with someone's opinion during your discussion....be civil.
 
Whiskey Tango said:
I get the feeling there are a lot of so-called Conan fans who haven't bothered to read the original stories.
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I've read all of REHs works....the Brekinridge Elkins stories are hilarious. Just putting that out there for those who think he was all serious all the time.
 
The best thing about when they end is that you can read them again! :P
 
I got the nice big hardcover collection, including all his drafts and unfinished Conan stories and collected essays. So good!
 
Whiskey Tango said:
I get the feeling there are a lot of so-called Conan fans who haven't bothered to read the original stories.
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I get that feeling too. But what ya gonna do, iconic actor in an iconic movie. There is a gulf that exists between that and REH's man and the man in that movie.

But then most people also have very clear ideas of who James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Tarzan, Jason Bourne etc. Are without cracking the books open.
 
Conan is serious business. What about the videogames made based on the literature that had Ron Perlman as Conan?

Unfortunately Red Nails never got finished/released. That had Ron Perlman voicing Conan in an animated movie that was meant to be a faithful adaptation of the Red Nails novella.
 
That game felt loads more REH Conan to me than the Arnie movies. I even thought for a time the only good way to do a Conan movie would be in a Beowulf style cgi movie, but perhaps with a cool, cel shaded kind of look to it (Basically i'm picturing a cool, old timey yellowed parchment effect). I always thought that would look cool.

ChickenScratch said:
But then most people also have very clear ideas of who James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Tarzan, Jason Bourne etc. Are without cracking the books open.
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To be fair though, a lot of those characters are represented fairly faithfully across their various representations, and Craigs Bond is very similar to the literary Bond.

I think it's worse with Conan because the differences between iterations are so profound and the number of people who view Arnie as the definitive Conan are so many.
 
ChickenScratch said:
I get that feeling too. But what ya gonna do, iconic actor in an iconic movie. There is a gulf that exists between that and REH's man and the man in that movie.

But then most people also have very clear ideas of who James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Tarzan, Jason Bourne etc. Are without cracking the books open.
Click to expand...

Wolvieboy17 said:
To be fair though, a lot of those characters are represented fairly faithfully across their various representations, and Craigs Bond is very similar to the literary Bond.

I think it's worse with Conan because the differences between iterations are so profound and the number of people who view Arnie as the definitive Conan are so many.
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The Tarzan of the novels is so far removed from most movie interpretations it makes the Arnold movie and the pulp stories look like a perfect match.
 
C. Lee said:
The Tarzan of the novels is so far removed from most movie interpretations it makes the Arnold movie and the pulp stories look like a perfect match.
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Beat me to it.
 
Really? I'm pretty sure there were a couple of great BBC versions.
 
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