Oblivion - Part 1

[DA_Champion]

I'm way over 30 and I am aware of Dragon Ball Z.

People who make movies are always aware. They see everything as everything might be a reference or an inspiration.

There are thousands of movies and TV seasons produced every year, I doubt that they're aware of everything as you imply.

I'm 30 and I know of nobody of my age bracket who was into DragonBall, Pokemon, or Teletubbies.

 

[Lord]

We were talking if the moon stuff was original, not the rest. And context is allways different, even if a film is full of clichés, you said the destroyed moon was something completelly original, but it's not, it's just a fusion of two troupes, the destroyed moon, and the old crippled monument.

Now, if you want to talk if Oblivion itself shouldn't be original or not then that's another argument, because right now we were discussing the Destroyed moon

And no, Gravity is not original at all, doesn't mean the film itself was not good, because the experience was so good, problem with Oblivion is that it doesn't really do anything that interesting with those concepts, it reminds me of The Island in that way, the metaphors they may be trying to give are amateurish and the usual ones explored in these blockbusters (Free will, 9/11 and "the world is not what you think it is").

I'm not saying the film was itself bad, but it was average at best, i grant to Kosinski that the image is phenomenal, with that certainly being a trademark for his films and that he does seem to try a lot with them. While the Tet is not exactly original, i do agree that it looked creepy and i enjoyed it, i was talking about the destroyed moon not being original, but don't misinterpret me, i do think it looks stunning.

I allways await patiently for any of Kosinski's films, since i really enjoy his directing, but i think he just needs to be given better scripts.

There are thousands of movies and TV seasons produced every year, I doubt that they're aware of everything as you imply.

I'm 30 and I know of nobody of my age bracket who was into DragonBall, Pokemon, or Teletubbies.

We're desviating a lot from the main thread by talking about Dragon Ball but i just want to make you aware that the original Dragon Ball, the one that came before Z and had the most imagination ran in the 80s, while it wasn't very known in the USA, in Europe and Japan it was gaining ground and made many fans out of people that are right now in their 30s. I'm not saying the director of Oblivion saw Dragon Ball, he probably didn't, but i want to make you aware that its following goes back to many age groups. Now, with the Matrix and Man of Steel i think we could make a better case that those directors probably saw Dragon Ball Z

 

[DA_Champion]

We were talking if the moon stuff was original, not the rest. And context is allways different, even if a film is full of clichés, you said the destroyed moon was something completelly original, but it's not, it's just a fusion of two troupes, the destroyed moon, and the old crippled monument..

The fusion of disparate ideas is in fact a commonly-used definition of originality, and it's a way that originality is paramterized in scientific research on people's ability to be original, the ability to synthesise two different things not previously put together.

I allways await patiently for any of Kosinski's films

Oblivion is his second movie.

Were you eagerly waiting for Oblivion based on Tron 2?

Were you eagerly waiting for Tron 2 based on that commercial he made?

 

[Senator Pleasury]

There are thousands of movies and TV seasons produced every year, I doubt that they're aware of everything as you imply.

I'm 30 and I know of nobody of my age bracket who was into DragonBall, Pokemon, or Teletubbies.

Dragon Ball Z is not just one amongst many. At the very least he knows what it's about. That acnnot be ruled out just because you don't.

Oh and personal examples. We could go in circles as they're all the same: no one I know like the move I don't like, nobody in the theater I was in laughed at what I didn't find funny.

 

[DA_Champion]

Dragon Ball Z is not just one amongst many. At the very least he knows what it's about. That acnnot be ruled out just because you don't.

There's no reason to think that he knows Dragon Ball well ... but just "knowing what it's about" would be meaningless.

I guess it might be one of the 5,000 shows ever made, that doesn't mean he's watched it.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

There's no reason to think that he knows Dragon Ball

There's no reason to think that he doesn't know Dragon Ball.

 

[Lord]

The fusion of disparate ideas is in fact a commonly-used definition of originality, and it's a way that originality is paramterized in scientific research on people's ability to be original, the ability to synthesise two different things not previously put together.

A fusion of Lord of the Rings with Star Wars didn't make Eragon original

It all comes down to how you disguise other elements, the blown up moon didn't strike me as original because we've seen that type of concept before various times, a piece of the old half destroyed being present to show us how the new world is like is the bare essential of that concept, and it's almost expected by now in post-apocalyptic stories.

Oblivion is his second movie.

Were you eagerly waiting for Oblivion based on Tron 2?

Were you eagerly waiting for Tron 2 based on that commercial he made?

I know it is

Pretty much, yeah, Tron Legacy had a beatiful scenario and a kick-ass soundtrack, i saw from released images that Oblivion had an amazing image too, so i was awaiting to see how it was like.

Once again, yep, had never watched the original Tron before that, but the Tr2n short film he had done before made me very excited, it looked amazing.

 

[DA_Champion]

There's no reason to think that he doesn't know Dragon Ball.

It's the default assumption, as the vast majority of people don't know Dragon Ball.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

It's the default assumption, as the vast majority of people don't know Dragon Ball.

Vast majority of people living where? According to what survey? Equalizing Kosinski to the vast majority how?

 

[DA_Champion]

A fusion of Lord of the Rings with Star Wars didn't make Eragon original

It all comes down to how you disguise other elements, the blown up moon didn't strike me as original because we've seen that type of concept before various times, a piece of the old half destroyed being present to show us how the new world is like is the bare essential of that concept, and it's almost expected by now in post-apocalyptic stories.

What's original is how the destroyed moon was used, and how it was presented, which you have not argued against. You've just said that the moon has been destroyed before, which is not insightful.

 

[DA_Champion]

Vast majority of people living where? According to what survey? Equalizing Kosinski to the vast majority how?

Living everywhere on Earth and in every single major subset of the Earth. Dragon Ball is not Star Wars and is not The Graduate.

If you want to argue that Kosinski is influenced by DB, then you'll have to show evidence. That's how burden of proof works. The burden of proof is on the positive statement, not on the negative statement.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Living everywhere on Earth and in every single major subset of the Earth. Dragon Ball is not Star Wars and is not The Graduate.

If you want to argue that Kosinski is influenced by DB, then you'll have to show evidence. That's how burden of proof works. The burden of proof is on the positive statement, not on the negative statement.

Tricky: The positive statement here is that Kosinski is actually positively unaware of Dragonball Z.

 

[DA_Champion]

Tricky: The positive statement here is that Kosinski is actually positively unaware of Dragonball Z.

Nope, go back and re-read the thread, or use common sense.

People who make movies are always aware. They see everything as everything might be a reference or an inspiration.

And if you go back a little more, there's the idea that he's copying from DB.

If you have a case that he's influenced by DB, then make it. Otherwise let's move on.

 

[Lord]

What's original is how the destroyed moon was used, and how it was presented, which you have not argued against. You've just said that the moon has been destroyed before, which is not insightful.

And i already talked about that, a destroyed element that is widelly known in our world being used in post-apocalyptic stories being presented that way has been done to death, did you even read my previous post?

in most post-apocalyptic worlds that were plagued by war, there's allways a destroyed element familiar to us to show that something major happened, from a half destroyed statue of Liberty to a sinking Manhattan, that way of storytelling is not original at all like you're implying.

 

[DA_Champion]

Lord,

What's your definition of originality?

What movies or shows from the past five years would you consider original?

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Nope, go back and re-read the thread, or use common sense.

People who make movies are always aware. They see everything as everything might be a reference or an inspiration.

And if you go back a little more, there's the idea that he's copying from DB.

If you have a case that he's influenced by DB, then make it. Otherwise let's move on.

Which takes us to: "[Kosinski is] in his late 30s so he's about 20 years old too old to be aware of the plots of Dragon Ball."

Sounds like a positive statement to me.

As I said, tricky, isn't it?

 

[DA_Champion]

Which takes us to: "[Kosinski is] in his late 30s so he's about 20 years old too old to be aware of the plots of Dragon Ball."

Sounds like a positive statement to me.

As I said, tricky, isn't it?

Nope, it's not tricky. The default assumption is that Kosinski was not influenced by DB.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Nope, it's not tricky. The default assumption is that Kosinski was not influenced by DB.

Care to read again your own statement?

 

[Lord]

Lord,

What's your definition of originality?

What movies or shows from the past five years would you consider original?

And what did i say?

We were talking if the moon stuff was original, not the rest. And context is allways different, even if a film is full of clichés, you said the destroyed moon was something completelly original, but it's not, it's just a fusion of two troupes, the destroyed moon, and the old crippled monument.

If you keep ignoring my statements then this isn't even a discussion, you kept arguing that Oblivion is a deep and very original film, i argue that it's not, not just because it takes from previous ideas, but because it doesn't bring anything new to the table. Batman started as a Zorro and The Shadow rip-off, yet it grew into something more than that.

What Oblivion does is shallow symbolism, a trait quite common in most blockbusters. It seems like some of these filmmakers have only watched other blockbusters and so talk about the exact same things others did in the same spoon feeding way. I already discussed this here:

And no, Gravity is not original at all, doesn't mean the film itself was not good, because the experience was so good, problem with Oblivion is that it doesn't really do anything that interesting with those concepts, it reminds me of The Island in that way, the metaphors they may be trying to give are amateurish and the usual ones explored in these blockbusters (Free will, 9/11 and "the world is not what you think it is").

 

[DA_Champion]

Care to read again your own statement?

You've spent half a page arguing that we should assume that Kosinski is influenced by Dragon Ball.

That's a waste of time in hindsight, and you don't know basic epistemology too. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Godzilla2000]

I can't help but think of Elder Scrolls: Oblivion when I see this thread title. That would make for an interesting movie, with Sean Bean's character dying in it too.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

You've spent half a page arguing that we should assume that Kosinski is influenced by Dragon Ball.

I said it was totally possible.

That's a waste of time in hindsight, and you don't know basic epistemology too. Welcome to my ignore list.

According to yourself, "the burden of proof is on the positive statement, not on the negative statement." And you started with a positive statement about Kosinski, that he was too old to know about Dragon Ball Z.

 

[Lord]

When this thread first appeared i thought it was gonna be a film about Elder Scrolls just from the title

 

[DA_Champion]

And what did i say?

If you keep ignoring my statements then this isn't even a discussion, you kept arguing that Oblivion is a deep and very original film, i argue that it's not, not just because it takes from previous ideas, but because it doesn't bring anything new to the table. Batman started as a Zorro and The Shadow rip-off, yet it grew into something more than that.

What Oblivion does is shallow symbolism, a trait quite common in most blockbusters. It seems like some of these filmmakers have only watched other blockbusters and so talk about the exact same things others did in the same spoon feeding way. I already discussed this here:

I listed several examples of the depth of Oblivion in a ~250 word post on the previous page.

You have not really argued against that, you've only stated that blowing up the moon has been done before. I acknowledge that this is true, I reject its relevance however.

Kosinski is talking about something different in this movie. It's clearly a movie about drone warfare. Given that this is a new topic, and that he started working on the story in the mid 2000s, it's thus very likely to be original work.

The symbolism in Oblivion as he reconstructed several facets of the broader sociology.

**************

I'm still waiting for your definition of originality and for you to give examples of recent works you consider original. If you consider nothing original, then your criticism of oblivion as not being original is not an interesting one.

 

[Lord]

Then it's a shame the film was not smart enought to pull off those ideas well. the Star Wars Prequels and Twilight movies try to delve into plenty of ideas and themes, that doesn't mean they do it well.