BvS Constructive Criticism of BvS, MoS, and Zack Snyder's Directorial Style

[Angel0fDeath]

Good luck, hope you enjoy it. I know I did. I actually had a whole Snyder Movie week a month ago - a movie for each day.

 

[BH/HHH]

I'm getting my mind and eyes "Snyder ready" if you will. Threw in Watchmen (The Directors Cut) last night and was floored so today, in goes Sucker Punch (never seen it), so...wish me luck lol.

It's a visual masterpiece but I found it a bit weird

 

[rogbngp]

In the context of the criticisms that MoS has received (see Skepticism thread) it was gratifying to see the recent WSJ Chris Terrio interview in which he says that he regards MoS, BvS, and JL Part 1 as a trilogy that tells one large story. I've seen some detractors say that they believe that Snyder did not envision anything further when making MoS. But as Marz69 recently pointed out

MOS: Birth of Superman
BvS: Growth. Superman learns what it means to be a hero.
JL1: Superman becomes a leader

I do think that Synder had a longer term vision in mind when he made MoS. He has said in interviews what he was trying to do with the Superman myth in MoS, and it is echoed in one of the MoS featurettes. Almost as a kind of experiment, he is bringing the myth into the something much closer to the real world that we actually live in. I think Superman is born into a world in which to which he must learn to adapt to situations in which sometimes an ideal or perfect solution cannot be found, and the adventure to come will be to watch how that unfolds.

But anyway, I think the above observation by Marz is spot on. In BvS he will learn what it means to be a hero. And likely in JL Part 1 he will discover what it means to be the leader of the JL.

So what may have appeared to be weaknesses of the Superman character and of the film (MoS) are I think just part of a trajectory. Take the time to watch the whole first flight scene in this context:

[YT]FNthTfMB1-0[/YT]

 

[Jaxon]

In the context of the criticisms that MoS has received (see Skepticism thread) it was gratifying to see the recent WSJ Chris Terrio interview in which he says that he regards MoS, BvS, and JL Part 1 as a trilogy that tells one large story. I've seen some detractors say that they believe that Snyder did not envision anything further when making MoS. But as Marz69 recently pointed out



I do think that Synder had a longer term vision in mind when he made MoS. He has said in interviews what he was trying to do with the Superman myth in MoS, and it is echoed in one of the MoS featurettes. Almost as a kind of experiment, he is bringing the myth into the something much closer to the real world that we actually live in. I think Superman is born into a world in which to which he must learn to adapt to situations in which sometimes an ideal or perfect solution cannot be found, and the adventure to come will be to watch how that unfolds.

But anyway, I think the above observation by Marz is spot on. In BvS he will learn what it means to be a hero. And likely in JL Part 1 he will discover what it means to be the leader of the JL.

So what may have appeared to be weaknesses of the Superman character and of the film (MoS) are I think just part of a trajectory. Take the time to watch the whole first flight scene in this context:

[YT]FNthTfMB1-0[/YT]

As the new films come out I bet those that "say" they had issues with MoS will look back on it with much more reverence when they realise it was the story of Kal-El choosing home over race.

 

[rogbngp]

As the new films come out I bet those that "say" they had issues with MoS will look back on it with much more reverence when they realise it was the story of Kal-El choosing home over race.

Exactly.

I look forward to watching MoS, BvS, and JL 1 in one sitting. Like watching watching the LotR or TDKT trilogies in the course of a day.

 

[Marvin]

Finally getting around to reading some of these articles.
I assume the whole Affleck brought his own team in and is writing the movie and such can officially be put to rest. The stuff we fans can assume when left to our out of the loop assumptions...

 

[rogbngp]

Okay, I am going to tie this into a criticism... not sure if it will feel like it though, lol...

These statements from Chris Terrio in the recent WSJ interview really have me excited:

...“Batman v Superman” is a bit of an “Empire Strikes Back” or “Two Towers” or any similar middle film in a trilogy. The middle film tends to be the darkest one. I do think from “Man of Steel” through “Justice League,” it is one saga really.

and

“In superhero stories, Batman is Pluto, god of the underworld, and Superman is Apollo, god of the sky,” observed Mr. Terrio. “That began to be really interesting to me—that their conflict is not just due to manipulation, but their very existence.”

This makes me hopeful that what we are going to get in BvS is a subtly layered subtext of Greco-Roman mythology about the JL members being modern day archetypes for the ancient Greek and Roman pantheon (Romans appropriated the Greek gods).

Superman = Apollo
Batman = Hades

confirmed!

And this then implies, I guess,

Wonder Woman = Athena
Aquaman = Poseidon
Flash = Hermes
Cyborg = Hephaestus
Green Lantern = maybe Zeus? Although he's also got a kind of a Dionysius flavor in some ways. He's a free spirit like Dionysius and lacks Zeus' gravitas. But the power of the ring is so immense and inherently creative. And the fact that Hal is an immensely powerful intergalactic space cop is kinda Zeus-like (Zeus keeps the divinities in order, even though he is very capricious, self-centered, and impulsive in his own right).

Anyway, all of this has me totally excited for the project of looking at how these ancient archetypes would interact with our world today. I.e., what do they now represent to us now, today? I think one brilliant aspect to all this is how Terrio and Snyder will use this to bridge comic book fantasy elements with real world stuff. It's just going to be fascinating to look for how they do this.

So what is the criticism?...

I guess the main one that comes to mind for me is along the following lines:

• How clearly does Superman begin to get fleshed out as our modern day Apollo in MoS? I.e., if MoS is regarded as the first film of a trilogy.
• How clearly did Snyder have this association (Superman = Apollo) in mind when he was filming MoS?
• Is Superman-as-modern-Apollo just something that occurred to Snyder after the fact (post-MoS), and Terrio decided to run with it and develop it in BvS and JL 1?
• Will we even notice or care if the parallel to Apollo for Superman is strongly developedin BvS and JL 1 but not showing up very prominently in MoS?

And another possible issue is how well it will work for Batman to be our modern Hades. I grew up with a Silver Age Batman who was cheerful, sunny, and 100% prosocial (like the 1966 film Batman) compared to the one we have seen in modern times since he started getting rendered as a psychologically damaged, dark, twisted, Gothic vigilante. Dramatically, I prefer the latter, of course. But I also sometimes feel that maybe the pendulum swung too far in the dark direction for the last several decades with Batman.

Anyway, just putting it all out there for discussion. Are there problems or issues that you all see with the Greco-Roman pantheon connection to the JL?

 

[Verick808]

All I know is Superman and Bats better not end up like Cap and Stark where they are arguing every film. I want a world where a story like The Trust by Chip Kidd and Alex Ross is believable. The best Batman/Superman story in my opinion especially since it's narrated entirely by Batman.

 

[grimdarkreaper]

All I know is Superman and Bats better not end up like Cap and Stark where they are arguing every film. I want a world where a story like The Trust by Chip Kidd and Alex Ross is believable. The best Batman/Superman story in my opinion especially since it's narrated entirely by Batman.

I could be wrong but I'm imagining they develop a relationship similar to the Dini/Timm Justice League.

 

[Dninx64]

All I know is Superman and Bats better not end up like Cap and Stark where they are arguing every film. I want a world where a story like The Trust by Chip Kidd and Alex Ross is believable. The best Batman/Superman story in my opinion especially since it's narrated entirely by Batman.

I could be wrong but I'm imagining they develop a relationship similar to the Dini/Timm Justice League.

I agree with both of you
And hope they become the World's Finest

 

[The Guard]

I don't have a problem if Batman and Superman argue. I never had an issue with Cap and Tony arguing. I had an issue with Cap and Tony essentially arguing like teenagers. If there's a maturity to the arguments and a good balance of humor and chemistry, I'm all for it.

 

[Marvin]

I see civil war as the fallout out of a friendship(well as close as friends as the ongoing debate reveals).
I see BvS as the formation of one.

As much as the films are 'oddly similar' this difference is kinda crucial as I see it.
Hopefully by the end of the film there will be an earned friendship and an arc of character looking back from where they started at the top of the movie. Then going forward the audience would respect all that went into earning that friendship. For it's one of the most known and pivotal in comic book lore imo.

 

[Jaxon]

BvS will finish with a sense of hope

CW will finish with a sense of tragedy


Both franchises need those endings

 

[Mandon Knight]

In comic book 'history', Steve and Tony have never had the same level of friendship as Bruce and Clark in terms of coming from the 'same place', the same level of understanding of why they do what they do and how they do it.

 

[DieSmiling]

BvS will finish with a sense of hope

CW will finish with a sense of tragedy


Both franchises need those endings

Good post.

 

[MrsKent26]

MOS: Birth of Superman
BvS: Growth. Superman learns what it means to be a hero.
JL1: Superman becomes a leader

I hope this is how it plays out, especially the part about superman becoming a leader. I really want to see him step up as the leader of the JL.

I've said this before and every time I do, I get ripped apart. People act like it's a sin against the other characters. I've never seen it that way. IMO, the JL is about each character bringing their strengths to the team. I've always seen Superman as someone who has a particular strength in leadership. That's not to say the others don't, but Supes has a special gift for it. He's just one of the people that can command a room and yet still be a generally humble person. I'd like the see this highlighted and the best way to do it is to portray him as an inspiring leader not just among humans, but among heroes as well. And this doesn't mean the others can have moments of leadership in their areas of expertise as well, but I want to see superman as the one that helps coordinate it all and bring people together.

 

[rogbngp]

JL will reportedly be using some associations with the Knights of the Round Table. If so, I see Superman as Arthur and Batman as Merlin, the wise counsel who remains behind the scenes.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

JL will reportedly be using some associations with the Knights of the Round Table. If so, I see Superman as Arthur and Batman as Merlin, the wise counsel who remains behind the scenes.

https://youtu.be/4UBQ5y7eZeU

 

[Decepticonus]

Very little skepticism from me personally. I LOVE Man of Steel, easily top 5 cbm's for me and I'm not really a huge Superman fan. But I LOVE Snyder's work, 300 and Watchmen, which I like more than the comics and yes, I actually enjoyed Sucker Punch.
The common thing I'm seeing in comics is the visuals. Nothing new here, but as they say show more, tell less. We don't need all this exposition and as someone poster earlier with that great image from Watchmen with Nite Owl & Spectre, one visual can convey so much.
BH/HHH brought up some interesting notes. I would have prefer a more linear story. Honestly, linear versus non-linear is not a big deal to me. BUT given the background of this film - written by Goyer, produced by Nolan and a reboot therefore this non-linear narrative becomes a distraction where all I can think of is Batman Begins (though I do love it). Like I said, just a distraction really. And the flight scene, which I had no problem with but as BHH/HHH brought up - I like this idea of Jor-El talking over Superman's flight, something about that sounds very inspiring.
And yeah editing up Pa Kent's death perhaps. And of course my other skepticism which is nothing new, a brighter color palette.

 

[rogbngp]

https://youtu.be/4UBQ5y7eZeU

Yeah, exactly! Great stuff.

 

[Herolee10]

The only real thing that I would want Zack to change when it comes to his Directorial Style...stop adding so much artificial grain to your footage.

I can personally deal with him raising or lowering the contrast levels and saturations to a certain point, but adding so much film grain can really put a damper on what is normally great visuals to behold.

 

[MrsKent26]

JL will reportedly be using some associations with the Knights of the Round Table. If so, I see Superman as Arthur and Batman as Merlin, the wise counsel who remains behind the scenes.

I would like that, except for the last bit. I don't see the rest being "behind the scenes."

The tricky thing about these team movies is that everyone needs their time to shine if they want to please the most superhero fans. Although, there's probably a large chunk of casual movie-goers who simply want an overall quality film regardless of who shines.

The only real thing that I would want Zack to change when it comes to his Directorial Style...stop adding so much artificial grain to your footage.

I can personally deal with him raising or lowering the contrast levels and saturations to a certain point, but adding so much film grain can really put a damper on what is normally great visuals to behold.

What do you mean by "artificial grain"?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

The Skepticism thread is dead. Bury it :P

No seriously, I looked in the Skepty thread and looked out. It's a cesspool of hate.

This forum doesn't just criticize Zack, it looks at him as a collective whole.

It's FINE if Zack's not your cup of tea, but if you say that he isn't gifted in creating thrilling moments with his visuals, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[rogbngp]

I would like that, except for the last bit. I don't see the rest being "behind the scenes."

The tricky thing about these team movies is that everyone needs their time to shine if they want to please the most superhero fans. Although, there's probably a large chunk of casual movie-goers who simply want an overall quality film regardless of who shines.

Oh yeah, I just meant that my read on Merlin is that he is in many ways leading (or at least orchestrating things), he is just using Arthur to do it!

I wouldn't actually be that cynical about it with Superman and Batman, though. Just that batman wouldn't be the public face, but in many ways remains the brains of the operation, the power behind the throne, etc.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I would like that, except for the last bit. I don't see the rest being "behind the scenes."

The tricky thing about these team movies is that everyone needs their time to shine if they want to please the most superhero fans. Although, there's probably a large chunk of casual movie-goers who simply want an overall quality film regardless of who shines.



What do you mean by "artificial grain"?

Grain can be artificially added. Which isn't a bad idea, but you have the film's natural grain being combined or enhanced with digital processing or augmentation, and that makes it stand out like a sore thumb.

But I'm weird, because I'd TOTALLY add digital grain to my films to make them look older and more "classic"