Contest of Marvels II Thread 4

[Zoken]

Shang Chi Vs. Rogue

While Rogue may be able to drain powers and trained in some martial arts, she isn't the expert that Shang-Chi is. She also is ued to fighting with brute super-strength. while she may have the memories of great fighters within her, none of them compare to the living weapon that Shang-Chi is. Now he will had decent prep time because as a part of the Heroes for HIre he will have had plenty of sources available to him. also the fact that none of the X-Men are particularly low key these days, and a former bruiser like Rogue switching tactics is going to be noticed.

in short, Shang-Chi will know to avoid touching her skin, and then slap her around like a red-headed step-child.

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

I understand that her powers do not cause just mild upset stomachs but this is no normal Human, but a dark elf encased in magical armor. This should afford him some protection.

Why should it? As far as I know, his armor has only ever done what every normal armor does, it protects him from physical harm. Just because it's magical doesn't mean it stops every single thing. If anything, I would say it protects from physical attacks and magical attacks, both of which Vertigo won't be using.

Now the main issue is not that given that Vertigo will have rocks and debris falling on her. How does she dodge that?

I'll just talk about this in a littel bit seeing as how it was brought up again.

The armour is magical and grafted onto his skin. The magic part protects him.

Once again, just because it is magical doesn't mean it can protect him against every single thing. Also the fact that Vertigo's powers affect the mind and Kurse has been known to have troubles with his mind (amnesia) show that he is susceptible to her attack.

You do realise one stomp or one hit on a wall is enough. This creature is among the top 5 regarding strength in the Marvel Universe. Hitting once would be enough. And anything that hit Vertigo as a result would knock her out, and given we are in a subterranean environment there is no way she could avoid the debris.

Yes but lets see Kurse is in Subterrania...he hits the walls causing quakes that cause the destruction of the area. He does not even need to see Vertigo. She would be dead before she even finds him. And even if she did one hit to the ground or wall and it would enough.

There's a couple of things I want to point out on this.

First off, Subterranea is huge. One cavern is large enough to fit an entire city in. This isn't some regular cave where he can make the whole thing collapse. Even at his full strength, he couldn't make everything collapse, and he while he'll be at full strength, he won't be able to actually make a good hit on the wall due to Vertigo's effects messing with him. Not to mention that there's a good chance that he won't be near a wall in these caverns seeing as they are enormous. Taht just leaves him with the ground. This won't work as well as you think. Even if he could stomp (and I'm not sure he'd be able to with Vertigo's powers messing with him) this is an EXTREMELY stable ground we're talking about. At the most he could knock a little bit of debris off. The only problem is that this won't be anywhere near Vertigo since she attacks at a distance. The debris would fall on him and him alone. Even on teh EXTREMELY RARE chance that some debris started falling at her, she isn't completely helpless. She might not be much of a fighter, but she has been in enough battles where she can move out of the way of a falling object (not that she'll even need to)

Secondly, and this is the important one (I think),Kurse wouldn't just start trying to bring down the cavern anyway. He knows that would kill most people, and while the Kurse of old would have easily done this. The new and improved version would never do that. This is an excerpt from wikipedia:

Kurse came to realise that Malekith, not Thor, was to blame for his suffering, and he obtained vengeance by killing Malekith. Kurse grew docile, almost child-like in demeanor, and was granted citizenship among the Asgardians by Odin. Kurse was designated as the guardian of the children of Asgard

This is what happened to Kurse, and that doesn't sounds like anyone that would instantly start killing and destroying anything.

Also one thing to note is that in Subterranea light is not abundant and it is very likely that Kurse (with his dark elf eyes) will see Vertigo way before Vertigo will see Kurse, given her vision is standard human.

While I don't know how good the dark elves vision is, I agree that it would be hard for Vertigo to see much. Luckily for her she can send how powers out in all directions at once, which she would do once he realises she can't see. She doesn't need to know where he is at first, but will find out when her powers hit him and she hears him crying "uncle".

Winner-Vertigo

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rogue vs. Shang-Chi:

The biggest match of Round 1 begins!!!

ok, maybe not...

This isn't really even a match. There was some question whether Shang-Chi should be included in the tournament, and he was a character I really wanted to see added. I feel bad he has to go against my Rogue. Let's look at powers. We'll start with my opponent.

Shang-Chi:

AbilitiesTrained from birth in Kung-Fu to become a living weapon. He is one of the world's greatest martial artists.


Rogue:

AbilitiesCurrent powers:

• Absorption of psyche and powers through skin to skin contact.
• Project heat and flame.
• Envelop herself in a fiery aura.
• Immunity to heat and radiation.
• Ability to see the infra-red spectrum.
• Flight.
• Increased strength through focusing her flame powers inwards.

Yep, pretty one-sided, especially considering she's got Sunfire's powers added to her own. Shang-chi couldn't hide, because she has the "ability to see the infra-red spectrum." She has flight; so, she doesn't even need to engage in hand-to-hand combat. She can project heat and flame; so, while in flight, she never comes into contact with Shang-Chi, and Shang-Chi cannot ever touch her and use his martial arts.

Rogue would have a complete file on Shang-Chi. She would know not to get into hand-to-hand combat with him. This is simply one of those matches where one opponent has a complete advantage, and the other cannot lay a hand on his opponent.

It's sad to say, but this is my easiest match of the entire contest so far. I only hope Shang-Chi, if included, will get a better fight next season.

Winner = Rogue

 

[Phaedrus45]

Shang Chi Vs. Rogue

While Rogue may be able to drain powers and trained in some martial arts, she isn't the expert that Shang-Chi is. She also is ued to fighting with brute super-strength. while she may have the memories of great fighters within her, none of them compare to the living weapon that Shang-Chi is. Now he will had decent prep time because as a part of the Heroes for HIre he will have had plenty of sources available to him. also the fact that none of the X-Men are particularly low key these days, and a former bruiser like Rogue switching tactics is going to be noticed.

in short, Shang-Chi will know to avoid touching her skin, and then slap her around like a red-headed step-child.

Sadly, like I've said, this debate really doesn't reflect Rogue's current powers. Since the end of her last cancelled series, she's had Sunfire's powers as her own. This is the most current version that ends with the beginning of Civil War. While Shang-Chi will have knowledge of Rogue, he probably won't have knowledge of her new abilities. (Only the X-Men really know about it, and it's questionable whether Shang-Chi would have this new knowledge.)

Now, Shang-Chi's appearances since the beginning of Civil War cannot be included; thus, he is not a member of Heroes For Hire in this contest. Remember, Heroes For Hire started after Civil War, and as a direct result of it. There first issues was a Civil War tie-in.

Finally, again, Rogue would know all about Shang-Chi. She knows he's a "Master of Kung Fu," and to engage in hand-to-hand combat would be ridiculous. She would also know she has the upper hand, and he could never touch her with her ability to fly and her current powers.

Winner = Rogue

 

[Zoken]

damn, out classed in both my matches this week. At least I lead SG to a victory last week.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Normally, I can see a scenario where my opponent might be able to get the upper hand...but, yeah, this match isn't very exciting.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Domina Vs Proctor

Okay.... so this is going to be a good match up. I'll start by clarifying how Domina's powers work, and what they are. Okay... first off, she has her main power. She can create energy discharges through anything she chooses, such as through a gun, through a sword, a stick, a dog's tail, etc. She can also mold that energy into forms (example: it's been used once as a rope to swing from). However, that's not her strongest suit. She's the leader of the Neo, and the leader of the Neo grants her the powers of the other Neos of her Tribe... and that is what makes her powerful.

Here is a bio on the Neo, and each Neo and their powers are listed beside their picture toward the bottom of the page, so that gives you an idea of the powers that Domina has at her disposal. The limitation that Domina has is that it was never clarified if she could use more than one power at a time, so for the sake of being fair, I'm going to just say she can only use one power at a time, plus her own. Below are her clan members and their powers that she has to select from. Also, she can use dead members powers as well, as she used Jaeger's powers after his death.

- Her husband Jaeger has a power to allow him to hunt and find whoever he's looking for. He also has Peak human stength, speed, stamina, and reflexes.

- Barbican can morph the structure of things with a touch, such as clay, brick, etc. He turned a building into a solid unbreakable fortress.

- Static can create a scrambling field that either negates a superhuman's powers, or makes them backfire.

- Seth can fry a person's nervous system with a touch.

- Tartarus creates illusions of a person's personal hell and fears, and if it lasts long enough, it becomes a reality.

- Elysia creates illusions of a person's greatest desires and ideas of paradise.

- Salvo can form his hands into guns with a limitless amo provided from his body

- Anteus can feed of the elements of the area to imcrease his strength, size, endurance, and resistance to physical injury. He can also immunize himself to a person's powers once they've been used on him once.

- Junction forms energy around herself and others and teleports.

So that's Domina. Proctor himself is also powerful, and could prove to be a great challenge for Domina. He can teleport, has some telepathy and telekinesis, can shot blasts from his hands, has class 10 strength, advanced speed, durability, stamina, reflexes and agility. He can manipulate a person's brain to feel pain. He also has the Ebony blade that can cut through just about anything.

Domina and Proctor are both very devious and deadly and will kill on a whim. They're both effective killers and can take out strong foes, as Proctor's goal in life was to kill as many Sersi's as he can, and he's killed 100's. Domina wants to kill all humans and the X-Men, and she's tracked and killed Sinister several times (a feet difficult to do).

As for getting info on each other... I doubt there's much. Proctor came to the 616 world and died before the Neo were discovered so he wouldn't have squat. Domina could probably find something on Proctor, but I doubt she would. She focused on Humans and the X-Men, and never dealt into anything Avengers related. So I'm going to assume that both are going into this match with eyes closed.

So it's established that both of these characters are tough. Both are well experienced and are intelligent and savage at once. Both are excellent hand to hand fighters (though I think Domina is a bit better) The match could be very interesting and really could go either way I think... however, as I'm required to say, I feel that Domina has more of an advantage with her set of powers over Proctor's. Specifically, she can hunt and find Proctor easily. He has a wide array of powers, but at anytime she can take on Static's powers so that his powers backfire, or just don't work. She could choose to use Anteus's powers so that once Proctor uses a power once, it no longer effects her (probably until she switches powers anyhow). She can do SO many things to take advantage of this match.

That said... here's how I see it happening. The location is massive and it could take two people a LONG time to find each other... however, Domina can track people through their spoors and residue. It may take time, but she can find him. That said, Proctor would probably have some type of tracking device (as he has advanced tech) so finding one another shouldn't be too tough.

I really can't say who would find who first. If Proctor finds Domina first, I see him blasting her with some type of energy blast. It will hurt, but she can take it (as she walked through Thunderbird's plasma flames without so much as wincing). Afterwhich, I see him mouthing off. If she finds him first, then I see her mouthing off from the get go. Either way, we end up in the same place.

Okay, so the mouthing ensues. Neither know of each other and I doubt they'll just glab about it, so eventually Domina will grow restless and will attack. From there the battle begins. If it goes to a physical battle at first, Domina has it, as she is better hand to hand, and her blows are strong enough to knock Colossus down (without other powers). Proctor can take it, but I think she'd have the advantage. If this did happen, it wouldn't be long before Proctor wisened up and used some other tactic, if he doesn't from the get go. I can see him messing with her mind, trying to get some info out of her. He may also mess with her mind to simulate pain and she'll go down tempararilly. Ultimately, I think Proctor can turn the tables, but Domina will realize that her foe is powerful and has an array of powers. She will then do what she did when the X-Men came at her like this, she neutralized his powers. Once that happens, she will stick with it, and he will remain powerless. So Proctor is powerless... he is still a good fighter and has his armor, and his tech. Domina retains her own powers to create energy into forms and channel it through stuff, and her fighting abilities are better than Domina's. The advantage suddenly becomes Domina's and a powerless Proctor against a powered up Domina is a no challenge. She could change the negating powers at anytime, and he wouldn't know, not knowing her her powers work. In the end, if she can take out a genious like Sinister (multiple times) and was able to take an entire team of X-Men on simoultaneously, she will take out Proctor. His last ace would probably be the ebony blade, but she's been raised in an environment of weapons and has been trained to face them. she should be able to dodge it enough to take out his arm or somehow disarm him, no problem. If she gets close (as she will, it's not hard) then she can instantly switch powers from Static to Seth, and with a touch, fry Proctor's nervous system. Without that, he's not much of a threat, and a simple blow can take him out. In the end, Domina's got this.

Winner - Domina

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Why should it? As far as I know, his armor has only ever done what every normal armor does, it protects him from physical harm. Just because it's magical doesn't mean it stops every single thing. If anything, I would say it protects from physical attacks and magical attacks, both of which Vertigo won't be using.

Well for Vertigo's powers to work she has to affect the inner workings of Kurse's ears. If his armour prevents her rays from affecting him then there is no battle. I do not know exactly how good they are but they did protect his ears when he was travelling the ocean ground floor.

Once again, just because it is magical doesn't mean it can protect him against every single thing. Also the fact that Vertigo's powers affect the mind and Kurse has been known to have troubles with his mind (amnesia) show that he is susceptible to her attack.

With reagrd the armour, no need for me to be repetitive. With regard her powers affecting the mind, you seem to forget that Kurse had amnesia when he was Algrimm. And he got that amnesia through a physical battle. Nobody has ever been able to telepathetically affect him.

First off, Subterranea is huge. One cavern is large enough to fit an entire city in. This isn't some regular cave where he can make the whole thing collapse. Even at his full strength, he couldn't make everything collapse, and he while he'll be at full strength, he won't be able to actually make a good hit on the wall due to Vertigo's effects messing with him. Not to mention that there's a good chance that he won't be near a wall in these caverns seeing as they are enormous. Taht just leaves him with the ground. This won't work as well as you think. Even if he could stomp (and I'm not sure he'd be able to with Vertigo's powers messing with him) this is an EXTREMELY stable ground we're talking about. At the most he could knock a little bit of debris off. The only problem is that this won't be anywhere near Vertigo since she attacks at a distance. The debris would fall on him and him alone. Even on teh EXTREMELY RARE chance that some debris started falling at her, she isn't completely helpless. She might not be much of a fighter, but she has been in enough battles where she can move out of the way of a falling object (not that she'll even need to)

First of all I think you underestimate Kurse. A strike done by a creature powerful enough to destroy mountains could cause whole caverns to crumble on themselves. And as you well know a large enough strike could cause greater damage through repurcussions throughout the cavern floor. And also with reagrd falling objects, it is hard to move out of the way when you can barely see them and they are falling all around you. Plus you will be distracted by all the debris.

Secondly, and this is the important one (I think),Kurse wouldn't just start trying to bring down the cavern anyway. He knows that would kill most people, and while the Kurse of old would have easily done this. The new and improved version would never do that. This is an excerpt from wikipedia:
This is what happened to Kurse, and that doesn't sounds like anyone that would instantly start killing and destroying anything.

Kurse is no longer driven by revenge but he will look to destroy anything that could harm him. Him destroying the area could just be considerred good strategy to him.

While I don't know how good the dark elves vision is, I agree that it would be hard for Vertigo to see much. Luckily for her she can send how powers out in all directions at once, which she would do once he realises she can't see. She doesn't need to know where he is at first, but will find out when her powers hit him and she hears him crying "uncle".

First of all he does not cry out and never has. Second of all, her powers when spread like that are not as potent. Third of all, as soon as he sees her he can throw a chunk of rock at her. Her powers are not going to afect him as easily as a normal human.

She is mince meat to Kurse.

 

[kytrigger]

Well for Vertigo's powers to work she has to affect the inner workings of Kurse's ears. If his armour prevents her rays from affecting him then there is no battle. I do not know exactly how good they are but they did protect his ears when he was travelling the ocean ground floor.

Okay, they kept water out, but that's it for all we know. You can't really saythat the armor is what prevented the pressure from getting to him since he is incredibly durable.

With reagrd the armour, no need for me to be repetitive. With regard her powers affecting the mind, you seem to forget that Kurse had amnesia when he was Algrimm. And he got that amnesia through a physical battle. Nobody has ever been able to telepathetically affect him.

Right, he got a physical mental illness (amnesia). That is what vertigo is also. She completely messes with the inner ear and mind to induce Vertigo. If he is susceptible to one type of physical illness, then logically he should be affected by others as well. And even though he did get the amnesia when he was Algrimm, he still had it when he was Kurse. If Beyonder had made him invulnerable to mental trauma and illness, then he should had regained his memories right away.

First of all I think you underestimate Kurse. A strike done by a creature powerful enough to destroy mountains could cause whole caverns to crumble on themselves. And as you well know a large enough strike could cause greater damage through repurcussions throughout the cavern floor. And also with reagrd falling objects, it is hard to move out of the way when you can barely see them and they are falling all around you. Plus you will be distracted by all the debris.

You might be thinking I am underestimating Kurse, but I think you are overestimating him as well. I highly doubt that he has punched a mountain to smithereens and detroyed continents with his fists like you say. Now i will be completely honest and admit that I am nowhere near the expert on Kurse. If he did actually do these things, and you can prove it, then I will concede that he can (I don't know but am HIGHLY skeptical).

Kurse is no longer driven by revenge but he will look to destroy anything that could harm him. Him destroying the area could just be considerred good strategy to him.

I am thinking this is one of those things we will have to just disagree on. Wikipedia said he became docile and child-like. Marvel directory downright called him submissive. To me these things show me that he wouldn't use extreme force to win, and that he wouldn't just attack Vertigo first.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he wouldn't fight at all or anything, I am just saying that I think he would only fight back once Vertigo has attacked him first ,and once she attacks him, he is screwed (IMO) and won't be able to do anything. And even then, I don't think he would resort to drastic measures like bringing down the entire cavern like you say (of course I don't think he could bring it down anyway).

First of all he does not cry out and never has. Second of all, her powers when spread like that are not as potent. Third of all, as soon as he sees her he can throw a chunk of rock at her. Her powers are not going to afect him as easily as a normal human.

The crying out thing was a joke.
And it's true that her powers aren't as potenet when they are going in every direction, but she would just start like that. Once she has him in her power field she will know where he is and then she canfocus her full effect on him. She would just use the broader version in the beginning for protection.

She is mince meat to Kurse.

Kurse is a Vegan.

Winner-Vertigo

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Okay, they kept water out, but that's it for all we know. You can't really saythat the armor is what prevented the pressure from getting to him since he is incredibly durable.

You are right I do not know...his armour is grafted to his skin and therefore where his natural durability stops and the armour kicks in is a line which remains a mystery. However, the pressures on the ocean floor did not affect his inner ear as they should have....

Right, he got a physical mental illness (amnesia). That is what vertigo is also. She completely messes with the inner ear and mind to induce Vertigo. If he is susceptible to one type of physical illness, then logically he should be affected by others as well. And even though he did get the amnesia when he was Algrimm, he still had it when he was Kurse. If Beyonder had made him invulnerable to mental trauma and illness, then he should had regained his memories right away.

That is a logic I do not subscribe to you.

First of all, this was Algrimm before he transformed to Kurse. His power was exponentially increased by an omnipotent being. Amnesia which is forgetfullness due to physical trauma that happens to part of the brain requires physical trauma. Kurse with his durability increased as much as his strength was is not as susceptible to a strike to his head.

Second, one type of mental trauma is not a roadmap for several others. Just because he got hurt once before does not mean that he will get hurt again. Especially lets not forget what really happenned was that Malekith caused the floor to fall underneath him when was battling Thor. Algrimm, thought it was Thor that caused this and therefore wanted to take revenge on him. So actually where in the hell was he amnesiac. He just reasonned badly.

You might be thinking I am underestimating Kurse, but I think you are overestimating him as well. I highly doubt that he has punched a mountain to smithereens and detroyed continents with his fists like you say. Now i will be completely honest and admit that I am nowhere near the expert on Kurse. If he did actually do these things, and you can prove it, then I will concede that he can (I don't know but am HIGHLY skeptical).

First of all here is a ranking of his powers:

Strength: (currently) Incalculable (12/12)
Speed: Enhanced Human (5/10)
Stamina: Immeasurable (10/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike (11/14)
Agility: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Reflexes: Enhanced Human (5/7)

I cannot show Kurse do these things but I will show other characters that had strength levels less then his own such as Hercules who was seen dragging the island of manhatten or Grey Hulk who smashed an esteroid twice the size of the Earth.

I unfortunately cannot show you feats as I have no scanner but given Kurse is considerably stronger then Thor and that Thor is said to be on par with Hercules, there is no doubt that strength wise Kurse could surpass any of the feats of Thor and Hercules and likely to match those of the Hulk.

If Hulk as Grey Hulk can smash an asteroid then Kurse can destroy Subterrainia. The strength here is incalculable. Kurse could do it.

I am thinking this is one of those things we will have to just disagree on. Wikipedia said he became docile and child-like. Marvel directory downright called him submissive. To me these things show me that he wouldn't use extreme force to win, and that he wouldn't just attack Vertigo first.

First ofd all he is shown a picture of Vertigo and told he has to do battle with her. This is a creature of battle and was considerred as a terrifying guard for outsiders. The Hulk when left alone is also docile. Kurse is battle ready.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that he wouldn't fight at all or anything, I am just saying that I think he would only fight back once Vertigo has attacked him first ,and once she attacks him, he is screwed (IMO) and won't be able to do anything. And even then, I don't think he would resort to drastic measures like bringing down the entire cavern like you say (of course I don't think he could bring it down anyway).

First of all, we are not sure he is screwed as you put it through one of her attacks. And you have shown no proof that he would be screwed through one of her attacks. Second of all we are in agreement she cannot see very well and that her all encompassing waves are not as powerful. The rock throwing tactic may be simple but it is effective.

And by the way bringing down a cavern can be done with a bulldozer. It is like a building in many ways eventhough quite a bit more durable. Caverns have downward pressures pressing down all the time. If there is a weakenning of the structure holding it up, the ceiling comes crumbling down.

The crying out thing was a joke.
And it's true that her powers aren't as potenet when they are going in every direction, but she would just start like that. Once she has him in her power field she will know where he is and then she canfocus her full effect on him. She would just use the broader version in the beginning for protection.

Well what I am saying is she is not in an encased room where she can do this free from all distraction. Sending her powers everywhere will also harm all the other inhabitants that are likely to come in and swarm her. Plus Kurse will have seen her and been able to throw enough debris at her if he has not already caused the whole cavern to collapse.

Winner-Kurse

 

[kytrigger]

You are right I do not know...his armour is grafted to his skin and therefore where his natural durability stops and the armour kicks in is a line which remains a mystery. However, the pressures on the ocean floor did not affect his inner ear as they should have....

But that is a different kind of affect than what Vertigo. Yes, teh pressure didn't crush his eardrum, but you don't know if that is because of his armor, or just his regular enhanced durability. Either way, Vertigo isn't looking to crush the inner ear, she is looking to alter it, but in a way that it can already go). What I mean is, Kurse is physically already capable of getting vertigo, and she is just allowing that to heppen. (I'm having a hard time explaining that, let me know if this didn't make sense and I'll try again)

That is a logic I do not subscribe to you.

First of all, this was Algrimm before he transformed to Kurse. His power was exponentially increased by an omnipotent being. Amnesia which is forgetfullness due to physical trauma that happens to part of the brain requires physical trauma. Kurse with his durability increased as much as his strength was is not as susceptible to a strike to his head.

Second, one type of mental trauma is not a roadmap for several others. Just because he got hurt once before does not mean that he will get hurt again. Especially lets not forget what really happenned was that Malekith caused the floor to fall underneath him when was battling Thor. Algrimm, thought it was Thor that caused this and therefore wanted to take revenge on him. So actually where in the hell was he amnesiac. He just reasonned badly.

Beyonder gave him much greater strength, and changed the appearance of his armor (we don't actually know if he enhanced the armor at all even). There is nothing that states the Beyonder altered his brain or anything that proves him impervious to mental damage. Like you said, it might be harder to give him brain trauma by punching him in the head due to his new strength, but that's not what Vertigo will be doing. She'll be affecting him from the inside, a place that has no proof of changing since the Beyonder transformation.

As for the roadmap thing, you're right that just because he got amnesia form one traume doesn't mean he would get it again form any other one, EXCEPT that her attack specifically triggers vertigo. I'm not saying she would punch him in the face and he would get vertigo or amnesia, I am saying she would trigger it. Everyone can get Vertigo, just like everyone can get amnesia: it's just rare. By getting amnesia, Kurse has proven that he is susceptible to the same types of brain trauma that everyone else is.

And yes, he did have amnesia. He awoke and had no memory of anything except for Thor. That's amnesia. If it was just poor reasoning skills then he wouldn't have remembered everything else that happened when Thor used intensive heat (similar to the lava). Once he remembered, he just wanted to get revenge on Malekith. Thor didn't reason with him, he helped him remember.

First of all here is a ranking of his powers:
Strength: (currently) Incalculable (12/12)
Speed: Enhanced Human (5/10)
Stamina: Immeasurable (10/10)
Durability: Demi-godlike (11/14)
Agility: Enhanced Human (5/7)
Reflexes: Enhanced Human (5/7)

I cannot show Kurse do these things but I will show other characters that had strength levels less then his own such as Hercules who was seen dragging the island of manhatten or Grey Hulk who smashed an esteroid twice the size of the Earth.

I unfortunately cannot show you feats as I have no scanner but given Kurse is considerably stronger then Thor and that Thor is said to be on par with Hercules, there is no doubt that strength wise Kurse could surpass any of the feats of Thor and Hercules and likely to match those of the Hulk.

If Hulk as Grey Hulk can smash an asteroid then Kurse can destroy Subterrainia. The strength here is incalculable. Kurse could do it.

When did Hercule move Manhattan? Was it one of the new 12 feats he had to do? (I'm not doubting you, I am actually interested in reading it).

As for the Hulk feats, as much as I don't like them, I guess I have to accept them since they are in continuity.

I can however remind everyone that the Hulk does physical feats that nobody else in the Marvel Universe is capable of, including Kurse. You could say that Hulk was royally pissed off at that point and his strength far exceeded Kurse's at that point. Kurse might be extremely strong, but he has never shown having infinite strength, whereas the Hulk has.

Could the Hulk bring the caves down? Sure.
Could Kurse? I doubt it. And once again, Even if he could, I still don;t think he would since he is now reformed. I mean this is a guy that sits around and plays with kids all day in Asgard, this is a changed man.

First ofd all he is shown a picture of Vertigo and told he has to do battle with her. This is a creature of battle and was considerred as a terrifying guard for outsiders. The Hulk when left alone is also docile. Kurse is battle ready.

The Hulk in the presence of someone he doesn't know is docile too. The Hulk only becomes angry when he is threatened. Kurse has never shown having some sort of "mental trigger" where when someoen says fight he just goes ape**** and destroys everything. You make him out out be simple minded, when he is not. He might not be the brightest, but he isn't "old-Savage Hulk dumb".

First of all, we are not sure he is screwed as you put it through one of her attacks. And you have shown no proof that he would be screwed through one of her attacks. Second of all we are in agreement she cannot see very well and that her all encompassing waves are not as powerful. The rock throwing tactic may be simple but it is effective.

And you haven't proven that her attacks won't work. I have at least shown that Kurse has been affected by other mental traumas before.
Abd yeah, she can't see very well. But once again, once sh ehits him wiht the less powerful all-encompasing waves, she will know where he is, and then she can affect him directly, all the while being in constant motion so his rock-throwing strategy is effectively combatted.

And by the way bringing down a cavern can be done with a bulldozer. It is like a building in many ways eventhough quite a bit more durable. Caverns have downward pressures pressing down all the time. If there is a weakenning of the structure holding it up, the ceiling comes crumbling down.

Yeah, a normal cavern, which these are anything but. And if you are comparing it to a building, then you better be comparing it to a building where all the stuctural beams are MILES THICK. That's why he can't bring these caverns down. He would need to take out some of the support beams, but that would takes hours upon hours dues to their thickness. Eventually, after days he could, but he won't have that much time seeing as howhe will already begin to be affected by Vertigo and it's only a matter of time before he passes out.

Another thing to point out is that these caverns are absolutely huge. They can fit entire cities inside them. Considering that Kurse has only "enhaned human" speed it would take him quite a while to get to the sides of one of these caverns to actually start doing damage. Vertigo would already have started affecting him as he goes towards them. I honestly don't think he could travel several miles to get to the sides of one of the caverns while having vertigo, he would pass out before he got there.

Well what I am saying is she is not in an encased room where she can do this free from all distraction. Sending her powers everywhere will also harm all the other inhabitants that are likely to come in and swarm her. Plus Kurse will have seen her and been able to throw enough debris at her if he has not already caused the whole cavern to collapse.

Subterranea is huge. And while there are a few species that live down there, the chances of running into them are pretty slim. But just in case, I'll say what will happen down there:

So she messes with them, and most of them pass out form the vertigo. They aren't a threat. Even if they don't pass out, they don't know she actually affected them (none of these creatures are that smart) so they would attack both Kurse and Vertigo, slowing him down even more, while all she does is keep on the all effecting vertigo beams. It will take her longer to bring Kurse down this way, but she has the extra time now since he has to fight off the other guys.

And if you thnk they don't like getting struck with vertigo, imagine how pissed they would get when they start getting hit with the boulders Kurse is throwing everywhere. They'll start attacking just him then.

Another thing about these inhabitants is that some of them are Lava Men. They would actually be able to help Vertigo see since they would help light up the cavern, making it much easier for her to dodge any rocks thrown.


Winner- Vertigo

 

[Ahura Mazda]

But that is a different kind of affect than what Vertigo. Yes, teh pressure didn't crush his eardrum, but you don't know if that is because of his armor, or just his regular enhanced durability. Either way, Vertigo isn't looking to crush the inner ear, she is looking to alter it, but in a way that it can already go). What I mean is, Kurse is physically already capable of getting vertigo, and she is just allowing that to heppen. (I'm having a hard time explaining that, let me know if this didn't make sense and I'll try again)

How do you know he is capable of getting affected by Vertigo. He never has before unless you have evidence I do not know of?

Second, to affect the eardrums they have to be vulnerable. For her to create feelings of vertigo she needs to affect the inner workings of his ear. Nothing is certain about her capability to do so. You have not proved it so and I have shown you how impervious his eardrums are.

Beyonder gave him much greater strength, and changed the appearance of his armor (we don't actually know if he enhanced the armor at all even). There is nothing that states the Beyonder altered his brain or anything that proves him impervious to mental damage. Like you said, it might be harder to give him brain trauma by punching him in the head due to his new strength, but that's not what Vertigo will be doing. She'll be affecting him from the inside, a place that has no proof of changing since the Beyonder transformation.

Actually the armour was grafted to his skin. So the armour is almost organic in so far that it is part of him.

As for the roadmap thing, you're right that just because he got amnesia form one traume doesn't mean he would get it again form any other one, EXCEPT that her attack specifically triggers vertigo. I'm not saying she would punch him in the face and he would get vertigo or amnesia, I am saying she would trigger it. Everyone can get Vertigo, just like everyone can get amnesia: it's just rare. By getting amnesia, Kurse has proven that he is susceptible to the same types of brain trauma that everyone else is.

All I stated is that he was affected before his change. and his change was significant not only increasing his strength but his durability. Since the changes there has not been any damage to his brain and in fact the only way he was hurt was with the combined magical power of both of Thor's and Beta Ray Bill's hammers channelled through someone else. This drainned both the hammers. He was knocked out.

And yes, he did have amnesia. He awoke and had no memory of anything except for Thor. That's amnesia. If it was just poor reasoning skills then he wouldn't have remembered everything else that happened when Thor used intensive heat (similar to the lava). Once he remembered, he just wanted to get revenge on Malekith. Thor didn't reason with him, he helped him remember.

By the way, that is not amnesia. that is a feeling of hate which overpowers all the rest. If it had been amnesia he would not have remeberred Thor. Plus this was all previous to the change.

When did Hercule move Manhattan? Was it one of the new 12 feats he had to do? (I'm not doubting you, I am actually interested in reading it).

It was in Marvel Knights. X had posted a scan of it but he took it off.

As for the Hulk feats, as much as I don't like them, I guess I have to accept them since they are in continuity.

Yes it was in canon.

I can however remind everyone that the Hulk does physical feats that nobody else in the Marvel Universe is capable of, including Kurse. You could say that Hulk was royally pissed off at that point and his strength far exceeded Kurse's at that point. Kurse might be extremely strong, but he has never shown having infinite strength, whereas the Hulk has.

Yes that is true but this was Gray hulk and in the specific comic, he was not totally enraged. Kurse is considerred among the top ten strongest if not 5 strongest in the Marvel universe. He is double what Thor is with his strength belt. That is quadruple the strength of Thor. Thor was pretty equal with Hercules.

Could the Hulk bring the caves down? Sure.
Could Kurse? I doubt it. And once again, Even if he could, I still don;t think he would since he is now reformed. I mean this is a guy that sits around and plays with kids all day in Asgard, this is a changed man.

I honestly think Kurse should be capable of doing it if he wanted to.

The Hulk in the presence of someone he doesn't know is docile too. The Hulk only becomes angry when he is threatened. Kurse has never shown having some sort of "mental trigger" where when someoen says fight he just goes ape**** and destroys everything. You make him out out be simple minded, when he is not. He might not be the brightest, but he isn't "old-Savage Hulk dumb".

Wait a second here, last time Kurse was threatenned he was overcome with overwhelming rage which had him track his target over the ocean ground floor. Kurse is a warrior and destroys his opponents.

And you haven't proven that her attacks won't work. I have at least shown that Kurse has been affected by other mental traumas before.

No you have not, you have shown Algrimm was affected in so far he was overcome by rage against his opponent during said battle. Kurse is altogether another creature who is exponentially more powerful and more resistant to injury.

Abd yeah, she can't see very well. But once again, once sh ehits him wiht the less powerful all-encompasing waves, she will know where he is, and then she can affect him directly, all the while being in constant motion so his rock-throwing strategy is effectively combatted.

Ok I am not quite understanding this as she sets out her waves she can tell how one wave affected one person over another person?

Also, we are not certain that her waves will affect him.

Yeah, a normal cavern, which these are anything but. And if you are comparing it to a building, then you better be comparing it to a building where all the stuctural beams are MILES THICK. That's why he can't bring these caverns down. He would need to take out some of the support beams, but that would takes hours upon hours dues to their thickness. Eventually, after days he could, but he won't have that much time seeing as howhe will already begin to be affected by Vertigo and it's only a matter of time before he passes out.

Well yes I realise this, but the impacts of Kurse are quite a bit more powerful then the impact of a bulldozer.

His strength is not measurable and therfore the feats he does are not either. This is the comic book world and miles thick does not mean everything it would in th real world.

Another thing to point out is that these caverns are absolutely huge. They can fit entire cities inside them. Considering that Kurse has only "enhaned human" speed it would take him quite a while to get to the sides of one of these caverns to actually start doing damage. Vertigo would already have started affecting him as he goes towards them. I honestly don't think he could travel several miles to get to the sides of one of the caverns while having vertigo, he would pass out before he got there.

First of all, it all depends on which caverns they are in and second of all as soon as he sees her, which he will do before she sees him. Upon her, would fall a rain of stone.

Subterranea is huge. And while there are a few species that live down there, the chances of running into them are pretty slim. But just in case, I'll say what will happen down there:

So she messes with them, and most of them pass out form the vertigo. They aren't a threat. Even if they don't pass out, they don't know she actually affected them (none of these creatures are that smart) so they would attack both Kurse and Vertigo, slowing him down even more, while all she does is keep on the all effecting vertigo beams. It will take her longer to bring Kurse down this way, but she has the extra time now since he has to fight off the other guys.

You seem to forget that to Kurse, these creatures are les then mice whereas to Vertigo they are a threat.

And if you thnk they don't like getting struck with vertigo, imagine how pissed they would get when they start getting hit with the boulders Kurse is throwing everywhere. They'll start attacking just him then.

So then they would not be passed out by Vertigo whereas you put forward that Kurse would? is that not contradictory?

Another thing about these inhabitants is that some of them are Lava Men. They would actually be able to help Vertigo see since they would help light up the cavern, making it much easier for her to dodge any rocks thrown.

And why would Lava men help Vertigo when they would first want to put her out. And I don't know who you think Vertigo is but how the hell she would dodge rocks which are the size of buildings is beyond me. Does she have superspeed? No Super reflexes? No

She would be crushed. Vertigo is no a class villain and no cosmic enemy. Kurse is one of the most powerful creatures in the Marvel Universe.


Winner- Kurse

 

[wiegeabo]

Proctor vs Domina

First off I'll say that I had no idea what Domina's powers were before JH posted. But all I read were her powers, not JH's battle. So this is a clean battle I'm writing.


During prep-time, I don't think either would be able to learn about the other. Proctor is from another universe and the Neo are too new. So they both go into this fight blind.

Neither character is dumb. Both are very experienced leaders. Although I would argue that Proctor has for more strategic and tactical experience since he travels from universe to universe killing Sersi after Sersi. (And that's no easy feat since Sersi is a very powerful Eternal.)

So each character is going to try and fight at a distance since it's a much safer strategy then rushing into a fight against an unknown opponent. So, looking at their ranged powers, Domina can fire discharges through things or turn her hands into guns; and Proctor can fire blasts of energy. And Domina's attacks would be unlikely to stop Proctor since he can heal very quickly and, while he holds the Blade, is immortal.

Domina can create illusions of personal hell or paradise, Proctor can inflict pain or any range of emotions a persons the mind which, in this case, would disrupt Domina's ability to create illusions. And both can teleport around avoiding attacks or trying to get the upperhand.

But Proctor is also telekinetic, meaning that he can hold Domina in place, or attack her directly or by hitting her with things (maybe even hitting her with the Ebony Blade which would end the fight rather quickly).

And Domina has two powers that are very threatening; causing powers to backfire, and immunization from a power once it's been used on her. The first can be avoided by Proctor keeping his distance. The second can't be avoided, but Domina can't use any other power except feeding off the elements to increase size and durability. And even doing that will likely not stop the Ebony Blade which can cut through anything.

Infact, that's Domina's biggest weakness. She can only use one set of powers at a time. If she immunizes herself from Proctor's powers, she probably won't be able to fight him as he teleports around. If she tries to take on other powers to better fight Proctor, she'll lose the immunity and Proctor can attack her again.

But Proctor's best bet will be to take her by surprise using teleportation. Domina can teleport as well, but Proctor can teleport and use his limited telepathy to keep track of Domina. Infact, that's Proctor's biggest advantage; he can use all of his powers at the same time.

So Proctor just teleports around, trying to catch Domina with either energy blasts, or by getting right next to her. And if Proctor can teleport next to Domina, he can attack before she changes powers. One quick swipe or stab with the Ebony Blade, and the fight is over, ending with Proctor cleaning the blood from his Blade.

And that's how I see this match progessing. Proctor keeps jumping around to get an edge on Domina. Domina can try teleporting as well, but she'll lost her other powers doing so. Eventually, Proctor's vast experience and depth of powers will win out.

Domina may have a good number of powers to dip into, but she can't access them all at once. Proctor has no such limit and, combined with the advanced tech he can bring with him (which could range from tracking devices, to attacking weapons, to a personal forcefield), he will use everything he has at the same time and overwhelm his opponent.


Proctor wins

 

[wiegeabo]

Proctor vs Domina rebuttle

Reading up on Domina, a biography says the power of Static only neutralizes/backfires the powers of mutants. If this is true, then this power will not effect Proctor. He is not a mutant, but gained his abilities through the Gann Josin with his Sersi and succumbing to the bloodlust of the Ebony Blade. And, if the mutant powers of the Neo only effect mutants, she wouldn't be able to become immune to Proctors powers. That takes care of two of the biggest threats to Proctor, making it much easier for him to fight Domina.

As for precedence, mutants with power manipulating/copying abilities like Mimic only effect others with the X-gene, and not superhumans whose abilities came from other methods.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Proctor vs Domina rebuttle

Reading up on Domina, a biography says the power of Static only neutralizes/backfires the powers of mutants. If this is true, then this power will not effect Proctor. He is not a mutant, but gained his abilities through the Gann Josin with his Sersi and succumbing to the bloodlust of the Ebony Blade. And, if the mutant powers of the Neo only effect mutants, she wouldn't be able to become immune to Proctors powers. That takes care of two of the biggest threats to Proctor, making it much easier for him to fight Domina.

As for precedence, mutants with power manipulating/copying abilities like Mimic only effect others with the X-gene, and not superhumans whose abilities came from other methods.

I think your main argument that hurts me is your claim that Static's powers only effect Mutants, and not all superhumans. I found where it states that on Wiki, but the thing is, on Uncannyx-men.net, they mention it as all superhumans... so we have a clash of profiles, and I suppose that its up to the voters to decide which to believe. I tend to think that Uncannyxmen.net is more trustworthy than wiki, as it's a higher profile comicbook resource and Wiki can be entered by any joe blow (as I understand it). The comics themselves don't declair one way or another. Something that stands though is that the Neo aren't technically mutants (don't know why, but that was canon), so I don't know why they would only effect mutants when they aren't even mutants themselves. So in my opinion, Static's powers to negate other powers or make them backfire still stand, as would Anteus's powers to grow immune to powers once used.

Now for my rebuttal

So each character is going to try and fight at a distance since it's a much safer strategy then rushing into a fight against an unknown opponent. So, looking at their ranged powers, Domina can fire discharges through things or turn her hands into guns; and Proctor can fire blasts of energy. And Domina's attacks would be unlikely to stop Proctor since he can heal very quickly and, while he holds the Blade, is immortal.

The main reason why I don't think this would work is because Domina is too brash. She's always fought up close and has never once fought at a distance. Now this could work against her, or in her favor. That said, I don't think that there's point to debating the rest.

Domina can create illusions of personal hell or paradise, Proctor can inflict pain or any range of emotions a persons the mind which, in this case, would disrupt Domina's ability to create illusions. And both can teleport around avoiding attacks or trying to get the upperhand.

If this is the defense of her illusions, keep in mind that she can make it his personal hell and his greatest desire. She can cast it, and he would have to find her first before attacking her mind. And trust me, she isn't just casting the illusion, she's getting close for the attack. All neo are peak physical condition, and her speed is exceptional. If she wants to get close, she will. Even if he manages to see through the illusions (keep in mind, yes he's got telepathy, but it's limited. He's no Xavier, nor Psylocke, or even M. He's very low level from my understanding, and even if he could concentrate beyond the illusions that torment him, or bliss him, it'd take a little time to look beyond the illusions, find her, and hurt her mind. He's tough, but I don't think he's tough enough in the areas he'd need to get beyond her illusions.

And yes, Proctor can teleport... but he's never done the Nightcrawler deal. He'd teleport once to where he needed, or behind someone, but that's about it. He's not one to just teleport around assault here and there. And my thinking is that Domina is more savage in that reguard. She can teleport more than one person, even without touching them, so I see her seeing Proctor teleporting, and she would defend herself using whatever powers necessary, and then anticipate him coming and switch and teleport him with her, surprising him, and launch her own attack while he's surprised.

But Proctor is also telekinetic, meaning that he can hold Domina in place, or attack her directly or by hitting her with things (maybe even hitting her with the Ebony Blade which would end the fight rather quickly).

A potentialy good scenerio, but Proctor isn't one to just end things. He's a big talker, big planner, big attacker. He isn't going to go with a one trick win. Just isn't him.

And Domina has two powers that are very threatening; causing powers to backfire, and immunization from a power once it's been used on her. The first can be avoided by Proctor keeping his distance. The second can't be avoided, but Domina can't use any other power except feeding off the elements to increase size and durability. And even doing that will likely not stop the Ebony Blade which can cut through anything.

Again, Domina is an up close and personal fighter. She's also an amazing hunter (on her own, and especially with Jaeger and Rex's powers (both are the same)). She will find him and launch her attack. I can see him teleporting away to keep distance, but he doesn't have to be around to be negated (sticking with my stance on that), and she gets close. Secondly, she can teleport with him near, and she can attack and when close enough, before he teleports, she teleports them both and attacks where they end up while he's caught off guard. She's a skilled and highly experienced fighter. She'd know how to get around Proctor's hurdles.

Infact, that's Domina's biggest weakness. She can only use one set of powers at a time. If she immunizes herself from Proctor's powers, she probably won't be able to fight him as he teleports around. If she tries to take on other powers to better fight Proctor, she'll lose the immunity and Proctor can attack her again.

I'll grant that her one power at a time is her weak point, but it's definately NOT a weakness. She did just fine against a whole team of X-Men going from power to power. She does it extremely fast, almost as if she was doing them at once (and it isn't even inexperienced X-Men, it was Colossus, Nightcrawler, Rogue, Psylocke, Thunderbird III, and Cecelia Reyes)

If she immunizes Proctor's powers... that includes his teleportation. So he won't be doing much of anything, except welding the Ebony Blade, which in itself is dangerous... but Domina's highly experienced with weapons, as they are huge with the Neo. She'd know how to dodge it and disarm him. And keep in mind, Proctor doesn't know how she works. He won't know to expect her powers to change.

But Proctor's best bet will be to take her by surprise using teleportation. Domina can teleport as well, but Proctor can teleport and use his limited telepathy to keep track of Domina. Infact, that's Proctor's biggest advantage; he can use all of his powers at the same time.

So Proctor just teleports around, trying to catch Domina with either energy blasts, or by getting right next to her. And if Proctor can teleport next to Domina, he can attack before she changes powers. One quick swipe or stab with the Ebony Blade, and the fight is over, ending with Proctor cleaning the blood from his Blade.

First off, I still stand by the Negating Powers working, as only Wiki says it's limited to Mutants, and I feel Uncannyxmen.net to be a more reliable resource, which says all superhumans, including Proctor. However, even if you don't agree with me on that, Anteus's powers to negate a power after once hit with it still stands, as no bio claims that only works with mutants. So Proctor can teleport all he wants, but his powers will all begin to be useless. The Ebony blade is still a threat, but again, look to the above scenerio I made for this. Domina will grow immune to Proctor's other powers as he attacks. And Anteus's powers would also give her the strength and resistance to take the attack just fine. In fact, the only way I see this tactic working for Proctor is if he gets the ebony blade out in time... however, I've already figured out a way to overcome this... her own teleportation. Wait for him to appear and switch powers instantly and in the same second teleport with him and attack. He'd be thrown off guard, she'd disarm him, and use Seth's powers to fry his Nervous system and he's down. Without his sword and without a functioning Nervous system, he won't do much, and she can kill him easily in any fashion she wants. And if you don't think she's quick enough to handle a massive teleporting (note again, very un-Proctor-like), she managed to counter Nightcrawler in X-Men 102 by taking his attack and then using Psylocke to tag him as he solidifies from a teleport. She can estimate these kinds of attacks and use it to her advantage. This tactic by Proctor is one she's faced before, and she can overcome it as she did then.

And that's how I see this match progessing. Proctor keeps jumping around to get an edge on Domina. Domina can try teleporting as well, but she'll lost her other powers doing so. Eventually, Proctor's vast experience and depth of powers will win out.

Again, see above. And though Proctor has mass experience, keep in mind that she's very experienced as well. She was able to take down a team of X-Men, Sinister and Sabretooth, and others just fine with no problem. Her people are born into this type of lifestyle and trained from day one. Proctor's experiences range from worlds... but they both are experienced enough to make their tactics work. I don't really think that Proctor's experience is any more than Domina's, or at least not enough to cause THAT much of a differance.

Domina may have a good number of powers to dip into, but she can't access them all at once. Proctor has no such limit and, combined with the advanced tech he can bring with him (which could range from tracking devices, to attacking weapons, to a personal forcefield), he will use everything he has at the same time and overwhelm his opponent.

Again, she has access to one power at a time, but she's so quick and experienced at it that she uses it as if it's all at once. She can change powers, utilize the power, and move to a new one in a matter of a second. The one power limitation isn't really much of a limitation... it's just something to help tune her fighting and attackign abilities all the more. She can switch powers so quickly and effectively that I doubt Proctor will even realize the 'limitation.'

So in closing... Proctor's biggest chance is his mass teleportation, which I feel has been shown to be uncharacteristic. I have come up with a highly believable method of overcoming it. I truely feel that Domina can take this. She took on the X-Men single handedly (without the other Neo) and kicked the crap out of them. Proctor took on the Avengers, but needed his Gathering buddies to hold them off so that his plan could come to pass. One on One, I think Domina's got it!

Winner - Domina

 

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

How do you know he is capable of getting affected by Vertigo. He never has before unless you have evidence I do not know of?

Second, to affect the eardrums they have to be vulnerable. For her to create feelings of vertigo she needs to affect the inner workings of his ear. Nothing is certain about her capability to do so. You have not proved it so and I have shown you how impervious his eardrums are.

And once again, I'll bring up that he can still hear. If his armor and eardrums were that tough, sound wouldn't be able to get through either and he'd be deaf. Things can get through. And of course I can't 100% prove he can't be affected because they have never faced each other before, and that is, quite frankly, the only way to completely prove he can be affected. Just like the only way to completely prove he can't be affected would be if they faced off and nothign happened to him. Neither of us have proof.


[qoute]Actually the armour was grafted to his skin. So the armour is almost organic in so far that it is part of him.[/quote]Yeah, I get that, but that doesn't mean it actually changed the power/what the armor can defend against. That is what I was trying to say.

All I stated is that he was affected before his change. and his change was significant not only increasing his strength but his durability. Since the changes there has not been any damage to his brain and in fact the only way he was hurt was with the combined magical power of both of Thor's and Beta Ray Bill's hammers channelled through someone else. This drainned both the hammers. He was knocked out.

And? I've already agreed with you that he is ridiculously strong and durable. I get that it takes a lot to knock him out physically. Once again, Vertigo won't be punching him.

And you keep talking about how this happened before he was changed. Beyonder just gave him more strangth and durability. Like I've said before, there is nothign to say that he can't still be affected by brain trauma. If someoen has brain damage, and then goes and starts working out, they aren't less likely to get brain damage again just because they're stronger....

By the way, that is not amnesia. that is a feeling of hate which overpowers all the rest. If it had been amnesia he would not have remeberred Thor. Plus this was all previous to the change.

Yes, that is amnesia. Amnesia in no way has to be all memory is gone. There are many different types. Not to mention that both bios I have read on him have outright called it amnesia. Everyone seems to call it that but you.

It was in Marvel Knights. X had posted a scan of it but he took it off.

Cool, I'll have to look for that.

Yes that is true but this was Gray hulk and in the specific comic, he was not totally enraged. Kurse is considerred among the top ten strongest if not 5 strongest in the Marvel universe. He is double what Thor is with his strength belt. That is quadruple the strength of Thor. Thor was pretty equal with Hercules.

Once again though, it is prett fruitless to compare anyone strengthwise to any version of the Hulk. Comics have shown that any version of the Hulk can do things that no other character in Marvel can do (don't make me bring DACMAN in here to prove this t: ).

And while he still is incredibly strong, that isn't the reason he can't tear down the caves. It's not a question of his strength. He could tear into the walls no problem, but remember these wallls are miles thick, and he only has the speed of an enhanced human. He could tear them down, but it would take hours for him to do so, and the whole time Vertigo would be affecting him. He doesn't have hours.

Also, why would he even tear down the walls? As you have stated he is one of the strongest characters in Marvel? He has always been shown to face his opponent head on. Why would in this battle, he suddenly decide to instead start tearing the place down instead of actually attacking vertigo? I mean this guy tracked down Thor, I doubt he would be scared of Vertigo. HE is one of the strongest, and he knows it, there is absolutely know reason why he would start tearing down the walls or throw boulders at her.

Wait a second here, last time Kurse was threatenned he was overcome with overwhelming rage which had him track his target over the ocean ground floor. Kurse is a warrior and destroys his opponents.

And a lot has happened to him since then, including becoming a child's nanny.

No you have not, you have shown Algrimm was affected in so far he was overcome by rage against his opponent during said battle. Kurse is altogether another creature who is exponentially more powerful and more resistant to injury.

No, he's not another creature. He's just stronger and has a new name. Nothing, NOTHING, has been stated anywhere where he became more resistant to anything but physical attacks on the outside of his body.

Ok I am not quite understanding this as she sets out her waves she can tell how one wave affected one person over another person?

I am pretty sure she can. On the off chance she couldn't though, she should still be able to locate Kurse pretty easily even if it is dark in the cave. I mean we are talking about an 8ft. tall dark elf dressed in armor, stealth is not his friend. SHe would definately be able to hear him, especially when the vertigo starts to affect him, he would either downright fall down, or at least start stumbling in the beginning.

Also, we are not certain that her waves will affect him.

We're both beating a dead horse on this one. It's pretty obvious neither of us are going to change our minds (stubborn bastards aren't we ).

First of all, it all depends on which caverns they are in and second of all as soon as he sees her, which he will do before she sees him. Upon her, would fall a rain of stone.

Once again, why would he do this? Why wouldn't he just try and fight her at hand-to-hand combat. The only reason I could ever see the powerful Kurse throwing boulders at someone was if they were flyin goverhead and he couldn't otherwise reach them. That is not the case here.

You seem to forget that to Kurse, these creatures are les then mice whereas to Vertigo they are a threat.

I'm not saying these creatures will give Kurse a good fight. They won't, but he still has to swipe them away. They would be slowing him down all the while he is still being affected by Vertigo. Time is not on his side, and they are slowing him down even more. And this is all on the grounds that the creatures wouldn't just pass out from Vertigo's attack.

So then they would not be passed out by Vertigo whereas you put forward that Kurse would? is that not contradictory?

No, read the actual quote before it. I said I think most of them would pass out form it. Then, to cover all bases, I said "even if they don't pass out". Taht isn't contradictory, that's arguing all possible scenarios. I do think most would pass out, and that is actually beneficial to you. It would allow Kurse to try and walk more freely to the wall to start tearing it down (although I have no idea why he would do this). Unfortunately, it's not beneficial enough seeing as how once they are passed out Vertigo can concentrate her attack on Kurse and he would pass out before doing his unexplainable wall tearing thing.

And why would Lava men help Vertigo when they would first want to put her out. And I don't know who you think Vertigo is but how the hell she would dodge rocks which are the size of buildings is beyond me. Does she have superspeed? No Super reflexes? No

They're not trying to help her. They glow no matter what. Them just being there helps her because they light the area up.

And I don't know who you think Kurse is, being able to throw a rock the size of a building while already being passed out from Vertigo's attacks. And why he's throwing rocks at her instead of fighting like he always does is anyone's guess...

She would be crushed. Vertigo is no a class villain and no cosmic enemy. Kurse is one of the most powerful creatures in the Marvel Universe.

Wrong, Kurse is one of the most physically powerful characters. Big difference. He's a one trick pony that can do extremely well in a straight up physical fight, but is screwed when he has to face someone with non-physical powers like Vertigo.


Winner-Vertigo

 

[Ahura Mazda]

First of all, let me say it is enjoyable debating with you Kytrigger replying in 2 posts because it will not allow me to reply in one.

And once again, I'll bring up that he can still hear. If his armor and eardrums were that tough, sound wouldn't be able to get through either and he'd be deaf. Things can get through. And of course I can't 100% prove he can't be affected because they have never faced each other before, and that is, quite frankly, the only way to completely prove he can be affected. Just like the only way to completely prove he can't be affected would be if they faced off and nothign happened to him. Neither of us have proof.

The ability to hear is not a determinant of the harm that can be done to him. You are making an assumption...in fact I would say a leap of faith that because he can hear he should be affected.

I am stating that as his ear drums were not affected at all by the ocean pressures which would cause ears to pop it is safe to assume his eardrums are as impervious as the rest of him.

Yeah, I get that, but that doesn't mean it actually changed the power/what the armor can defend against. That is what I was trying to say.

Before his change blows from Thor using Mjollnir affected him, afterwards they did not. Plus the armour completely changed in look and form. therfore his resistance was changed and exponentially improved.

And? I've already agreed with you that he is ridiculously strong and durable. I get that it takes a lot to knock him out physically. Once again, Vertigo won't be punching him.

We are in agreement then that if he reaches her..she is dead. And yes I do get she is not getting her boxing gloves out

And you keep talking about how this happened before he was changed. Beyonder just gave him more strength and durability. Like I've said before, there is nothign to say that he can't still be affected by brain trauma. If someoen has brain damage, and then goes and starts working out, they aren't less likely to get brain damage again just because they're stronger....

You are right if that brain and skull surrounding it is. however, if they become impervious to harm you cannot affect them. That is what happenned to Kurse.

Yes, that is amnesia. Amnesia in no way has to be all memory is gone. There are many different types. Not to mention that both bios I have read on him have outright called it amnesia. Everyone seems to call it that but you.

Yes but selective amnesia is sometimes psychological and not physiological. To show harm you need to show physiological damage done to him.

Once again though, it is prett fruitless to compare anyone strengthwise to any version of the Hulk. Comics have shown that any version of the Hulk can do things that no other character in Marvel can do (don't make me bring DACMAN in here to prove this t: ).

No don't bring Dacman...... You know I have the Hulk as well in this contest so I know what the character is worth. I also know there are people who have argued that there are other creatures in the Marvel universe who are stronger like Magog and Kurse. Therefore even if I beleive Hulk is stronger due to the dynamic strength factor, I have to admit that Kurse is extremely high up when talking about comic book strength.

And while he still is incredibly strong, that isn't the reason he can't tear down the caves. It's not a question of his strength. He could tear into the walls no problem, but remember these wallls are miles thick, and he only has the speed of an enhanced human. He could tear them down, but it would take hours for him to do so, and the whole time Vertigo would be affecting him. He doesn't have hours.

I honestly do not think it would take that much time based on certain feats I have seen including a double fisted smash which caused earthquakes (small ones) across the US.

Also, why would he even tear down the walls? As you have stated he is one of the strongest characters in Marvel? He has always been shown to face his opponent head on. Why would in this battle, he suddenly decide to instead start tearing the place down instead of actually attacking vertigo? I mean this guy tracked down Thor, I doubt he would be scared of Vertigo. HE is one of the strongest, and he knows it, there is absolutely know reason why he would start tearing down the walls or throw boulders at her.

See that is the thing if Kurse is not affected by vertigo's waves he would just pursue her and tear her apart or maybe just flick his fingers at her putting her out. If he is, he will do what is needed to win. Kurse is a driven warrior and the end justifies the means.

And a lot has happened to him since then, including becoming a child's nanny.

BODYGAURD

No, he's not another creature. He's just stronger and has a new name. Nothing, NOTHING, has been stated anywhere where he became more resistant to anything but physical attacks on the outside of his body.

Given he could take blows from both Thor and Beta ray Bill without blinking whereas before he was getting hurt by Thor it is pretty safe to say he was made more resistant. Plus the armor is now organically a part of him.

I am pretty sure she can. On the off chance she couldn't though, she should still be able to locate Kurse pretty easily even if it is dark in the cave. I mean we are talking about an 8ft. tall dark elf dressed in armor, stealth is not his friend. SHe would definately be able to hear him, especially when the vertigo starts to affect him, he would either downright fall down, or at least start stumbling in the beginning.

I have my doubts if the caves are as large as they seem that she can detect one person over another over a large distance. If that was so and she can affect people over large distances then she would be among A class villains which she is not.

We're both beating a dead horse on this one. It's pretty obvious neither of us are going to change our minds (stubborn bastards aren't we ).

Shall we leave it to the voters then?

Once again, why would he do this? Why wouldn't he just try and fight her at hand-to-hand combat. The only reason I could ever see the powerful Kurse throwing boulders at someone was if they were flyin goverhead and he couldn't otherwise reach them. That is not the case here.

Lets put it this way, if cannot affect her then yes it becomes hand to hand combat but as soon as he feels anything if he can feel it he will use whatever tactics may be at hand and that includes tearing out whole peices of the ground, rocks, building and hurling them at her.

I'm not saying these creatures will give Kurse a good fight. They won't, but he still has to swipe them away. They would be slowing him down all the while he is still being affected by Vertigo. Time is not on his side, and they are slowing him down even more. And this is all on the grounds that the creatures wouldn't just pass out from Vertigo's attack.

And I am stating that if hordes start attacking her she will most likely not survive. They would start attacking her first as the feelings she would make them feel will be foremost in their minds. Plus there is a limit to what she can do.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Part II

No, read the actual quote before it. I said I think most of them would pass out form it. Then, to cover all bases, I said "even if they don't pass out". Taht isn't contradictory, that's arguing all possible scenarios. I do think most would pass out, and that is actually beneficial to you. It would allow Kurse to try and walk more freely to the wall to start tearing it down (although I have no idea why he would do this). Unfortunately, it's not beneficial enough seeing as how once they are passed out Vertigo can concentrate her attack on Kurse and he would pass out before doing his unexplainable wall tearing thing.

So if Kurse can walk around easily while others are being passed out, wouldn't you say that he is more resistant and therefore there is no real match. And if he feels anything, he will grab anything at hand and throw it at her. I do not believe she has any agility powers. By the way just note one thing, Kurse has the speed of an Asgardian Dark Elf.

They're not trying to help her. They glow no matter what. Them just being there helps her because they light the area up.

In any case, I will assume there will be some form of light so this does help you.

And I don't know who you think Kurse is, being able to throw a rock the size of a building while already being passed out from Vertigo's attacks. And why he's throwing rocks at her instead of fighting like he always does is anyone's guess...

I think that is where the whole core of our debate lies and I will sum it down below..

Wrong, Kurse is one of the most physically powerful characters. Big difference. He's a one trick pony that can do extremely well in a straight up physical fight, but is screwed when he has to face someone with non-physical powers like Vertigo.

He was not screwed when facing Thor and his magical blasts nor Beta Ray Bill. thos is not a one trick pony and Kurse could readily handle him.

To sum up, as our arguments are getting stale as they generally do at this stage:

1. Either Vertigo's powers can affect Kurse or not
a. if they can pursue to point 2
b. if not, then the match is over and Kurse wins very easily

2. To what degree can they affect him
a. They affect him a little so he can feel it but nothing more in which case he wins easily again
b. They can affect him but to a lesser degree then a less impervious creature feels in which case he uses whatever tactics he can to stop it including throwing things leading to points i and ii
i. She cannot dodge the rocks which means she is gets squished
ii. She can dodge a few but not all in which case she gets squished but gives her more time to affect him
c. He is totally vulnerable and therefore falls asleep as soon as the battle starts

I obviously think that Scenario 1a is possible and scenario 2a and 2b is likely. My esteemed opponent is going for point 2c which is highly unlikely given the extremely powerful creature we were talking about that was enhanced by who was at that time the omnipotent Beyonder.

 

[kytrigger]

Heya Ahura, as always, awesome debate. I hope we get to debate each other in the later rounds as well because that should amp our debates up even more.

Also, I'll just respond to this last post since we're both in agreement that we're pretty much just repeating everythign now.

To sum up, as our arguments are getting stale as they generally do at this stage:

1. Either Vertigo's powers can affect Kurse or not
a. if they can pursue to point 2
b. if not, then the match is over and Kurse wins very easily

I agree. If Vertigo can't affect them, then ther is no way she could win...unless she seduces him or something t: .

2. To what degree can they affect him
a. They affect him a little so he can feel it but nothing more in which case he wins easily again
b. They can affect him but to a lesser degree then a less impervious creature feels in which case he uses whatever tactics he can to stop it including throwing things leading to points i and ii
i. She cannot dodge the rocks which means she is gets squished
ii. She can dodge a few but not all in which case she gets squished but gives her more time to affect him

The only problem I have with these scenarios is that, from what I've read, I have never seen Vertigo's powers only work a little bit. With this battle I see it as all or nothing almost, although I am sure you would disagree with me, where he either isn't affected and kills her at his liesure, or he is totally affected and wouldn't be able to throw boulders much less move very effectively.

c. He is totally vulnerable and therefore falls asleep as soon as the battle starts

Oh come on...that's just ridiculous. It would probably take him a good 30 seconds before he passed out...

I obviously think that Scenario 1a is possible and scenario 2a and 2b is likely. My esteemed opponent is going for point 2c which is highly unlikely given the extremely powerful creature we were talking about that was enhanced by who was at that time the omnipotent Beyonder.

And I see it as 2c being very likely while 1a is an extremely small but possible chance.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I agree. If Vertigo can't affect them, then ther is no way she could win...unless she seduces him or something t: .

Given that he cannot take his armour off it would be his loss

The only problem I have with these scenarios is that, from what I've read, I have never seen Vertigo's powers only work a little bit. With this battle I see it as all or nothing almost, although I am sure you would disagree with me, where he either isn't affected and kills her at his liesure, or he is totally affected and wouldn't be able to throw boulders much less move very effectively.

If she can render him unconscious quickly then she would win. If she cannot then she loses.

And I see it as 2c being very likely while 1a is an extremely small but possible chance.

And that is why we are having this debate.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!

 

[Harlekin]

Magneto - Debate gets the vote.
Rogue
Domina - Hard to convince me at first, but in the end...
Kurse - Great try, but I have to go with Kurse on this one.

 

[Darthphere]

Magneto
Rogue
Domina
Kurse

 

[Phaedrus45]

*Magneto - (Quake has helped to defeat Magneto in the past; but, in the end, I think location totally works to Magneto's advantange.)

*Rogue

*Proctor - (Great debate. I went back and forth quite a few times.)

*Kurse - (One of the best debates of the week, but I think Kurse is just too powerful.)

 

[kytrigger]

Magneto
Rogue
Proctor -The whole idea that Domina can only use her powers one at a time gives Proctor the edge in an othrwise great fight/debate.
Vertigo-whether I win or lose I find comfort knowing that everyone had to read 30 minutes worth debate between me and Ahura...