Contest of Marvels II Thread 1

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man

Precautions, I have no doubt about that. Precautions that have proved ineffective in the past. It's not the first time the U.S. government has figured T'Challa too unpredictable. Heck, a rogue faction of government tried to take over Wakanda. The Panther has beaten their plans every time. If he wants information about Stamford he'll get it.

Yes, he will have information about Stamford, that's never been in doubt. But, as I said before, Tony will have a bit more than him. (After all, as shown with Extremis, he can access the electronics and camera to gain further information.)

It's casting aspersions on a perfectly valid tool to discuss this match. Although I understand, I believe even the positioning of "it was in BP's own comic, so naturally he won" is irrelevant. The fight happened the way it did.

It's not casting aspersions, it's stating a pretty well-known fact that if Tony appeared in Black Panther or Black Panther appeared in Iron Man, that the person who is the star of the particular comic will come out on top. This battle will decide who has the upperhand in a very specific type of battle. Mainly, one on one who's best and strongest (or stealthest, or whatever). There isn't a big plot trying to be done. It's one on one, winner takes all....and, the Black Panther appearance was not one on one. Many players on all sides were playing for political reasons.

Not only is the majority of the battle with T'Challa himself, it also shows just how good he is at manipulating people, including Iron Man. Now, both BP and IM went through some changes since their last battle, but it's their last battle that forms the basis for not only their feats but their current strategy as well.

While stealth and knowing the other opponent is important, this battle isn't about manipulating people so much as throwing two contestants into a battle to decide who's the best of the best, in which the voters decide.

If there's one thing to learn from Priest's run on the Black Panther title is that T'Challa, even to the people that know him best, is always unpredictable. Even the White Wolf, his adopted brother could not properly predict what T'Challa would do. It's been shown in the past that T'Challa can counteract just about any technology since Wakanda is #1 in the technology department. They're so far advanced that Panther can hack into satellites with the push of a button on a little card for crying out loud. Beyond this, the Panther has shown the ability to counteract the technologies of people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark before. I'd wager he has a good chance of staying undetected if he so wishes.

Again, now Tony knows about Black Panther's stealing the knowledge of his previous armor. Times have changed, (as has Black Panther's current writer), and he's not going to be duped a second time. And, as noted, this is a different Tony Stark, especially with Extremis.

Ah, you mean just at the start. Quite right on that. Even then, it changes little. T'Challa knows Tony. He knows he won't stop to talk. He's prepared for that. If anyone is about ending a fight as soon as possible, it's the Black Panther.

That's my point. This battle is very different from what's happened previously. Priest's great run was all about politics and subterfuge and all that sneaky stuff. This is Hero vs. Hero, and who voters think would win.

As has been shown multiple times in the past, even when T'Challa seems to be preoccupied with other things, he's always busy with the collection of information. Heck, he's got numerous people working on tracking just about the entire globe. The people aren't a resource, but the info they've gathered is.

Yes, he does have people gathering intel. But, Tony Stark has been burned in the past. Now, he knows not to totally trust the Black Panther. (And, unlike T'Challa, Tony's gathering of data is done by himself, as noted he's created armors he believes can effectively take out heroes and villians alike. These two are very much alike in this regard.)

He outsmarted Tony numerous times during that arc, thus playing him like a tune. As for knowing about Tony's armours and such, that's not because of the Avengers mansion bugging. As Tony points out, his office wasn't bugged at all. T'Challa had found out in an entirely different manner. One still unknown to him. Like he says: "You've been prepared for this for a very long time." Likewise, he'll be prepared for this.

And, visa versa. By saying, "He's outsmarted Tony numerous times" is deceptive in the language; but, much more clear when it's pointed out to be in one story arc.

This is really irrelevant to our debate. Iron Man has no use of the spider-sense and what he knows of Spider-Man doesn't factor into this battle at all.

Where it's relevant is the fact that Tony also keeps track and gathers information in all that he does. He does it by himself, too. He takes new information and upgrades his files; thus, the Black Panther battle would have been upgraded further, and it's obvious that he won't be fooled a second time.

- We don't know how many cameras there are in Stamford. It's a relatively small wholesome town. There's no hint of any extra security than what a normal town has. That relates to a few cameras pointed to important sights such as town hall, but nothing beyond that. Even then, Panther can cloak himself from cameras, and the area is still populated as well.

To my knowledge, Stamford is at least as big as my town, and probably quite a bit bigger. I've know there is tons of survaliance available around me, from cameras on traffic light poles to outside businesses. Plus, Tony has studied the various heroes and villians. He'd have ways of probably detecting them if needed. (This is supposition, I'll point out, not fact.)

No, never as often as the Black Panther. One of the Panther's primary traits is his stealth abilities. Iron Man is ultimately, a powerhouse. Someone who acts in the spotlight. Iron Man can be sneaky, and he can even be a little stealthy, but not on the level of the Panther. That's not just opinion, these are essential traits to both characters.

I've read many, many Iron Man stories over the years, and a lot of them deal with his stealth. He's had whole storyarcs devoted to various stealth armor.

"One example"? It's pretty much an entire arc devoted to the dynamic between the Panther and Iron Man, one that Geoff Johns would later reference in his arc "Red Zone". If you've got scans, feats or issue numbers to back up your arguments, then I'm sorry but yes, this fight from the BP comic proves a lot, and it's the only proof the voters have.

It's one story arc, written in a Black Panther comic. It shows that Tony now knows he cannot fully trust T'Challa, that he would have learned that to keep his secrets that much more secret when it concerns which companies and such install wiring or anything else in his places of business. The comic proves much more than "T'Challa will beat Iron Man every time." It proves that both characters knowledge of the other, especially in terms of Tony Stark, would have greatly changed after that. It shows that the government would and should be a lot more warry of trust T'Challa and his government, and Tony would have, too.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

At this point, we'll probably go round and round; so, I more than likely won't have a rebuttal for the rebuttal. Good luck.

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man

At this point, we'll probably go round and round; so, I more than likely won't have a rebuttal for the rebuttal. Good luck.

Good luck as well. And in spirit of this, I'll close off some areas of debate.

This battle will decide who has the upperhand in a very specific type of battle. Mainly, one on one who's best and strongest (or stealthest, or whatever). There isn't a big plot trying to be done. It's one on one, winner takes all....and, the Black Panther appearance was not one on one. Many players on all sides were playing for political reasons.

The final leg of their battle in the Black Panther title was one on one and Iron Man found himself losing. I'm not saying that guaranties he loses this time as well, but it's important to note that T'Challa's outsmarted Tony before.

Again, now Tony knows about Black Panther's stealing the knowledge of his previous armor. Times have changed, (as has Black Panther's current writer), and he's not going to be duped a second time. And, as noted, this is a different Tony Stark, especially with Extremis.

Except the fact that the Panther was able to dupe Iron Man multiple times (yes, during one arc) shows just that he somehow, you can't stop yourself from getting duped. The Panther is an incredibly unpredictable opponent, as such the whole defeating of Tony's armour with Dr. Clean.

Yes, he does have people gathering intel. But, Tony Stark has been burned in the past. Now, he knows not to totally trust the Black Panther. (And, unlike T'Challa, Tony's gathering of data is done by himself, as noted he's created armors he believes can effectively take out heroes and villians alike. These two are very much alike in this regard.)

It's not about trusting the Black Panther. It's about technological superiority. Black Panther has the technological advantage. Also, when I said that T'Challa has people gathering the info for him, that was not meant to imply he does not do it on its own either. After all, he spied on the Avengers for years. The use of extra people is a distinct advantage though. Tony Stark is just one man. T'Challa has all of Wakanda to back him up and to note again: Wakanda is far more advanced than the rest of the civilized world. The Avengers, including Iron Man, didn't trust the Panther ever since his admission that he spied on them but he was still able to hack their systems.

Where it's relevant is the fact that Tony also keeps track and gathers information in all that he does. He does it by himself, too. He takes new information and upgrades his files; thus, the Black Panther battle would have been upgraded further, and it's obvious that he won't be fooled a second time.

- Black Panther does it himself too. He just has people doing it for him as well. That comes in quite handy when you say... need to sleep. Iron Man doesn't have that advantage.
- Black Panther upgrades his files as well, including the data about Tony's armours and their previous battle. Given the precedent of that latest battle, where T'Challa was continuously one step ahead of Tony, it's fair to assume he's going to have a leg up here as well.

Plus, Tony has studied the various heroes and villians. He'd have ways of probably detecting them if needed. (This is supposition, I'll point out, not fact.)

And see, this is the fun part. Black Panther has done that too and has also figured ways to avoid them when needed. Who do you think triumphs in this area? The jungle king of a incredibly technologically advanced country or the CEO of a large corporation? It surprised Tony just how prepared T'Challa has been for everything.

I've read many, many Iron Man stories over the years, and a lot of them deal with his stealth. He's had whole storyarcs devoted to various stealth armor.

I certainly can't recall any, while just about every story arc with the Black Panther I've read has been devoted to his intellect, unpredictability and stealth.

The comic proves much more than "T'Challa will beat Iron Man every time."

I never said that. What it does prove is that T'Challa has numerous advantages over Tony, to very few disadvantages, giving him the natural edge for this battle.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Harlekin]

Black Panther

 

[Ahura Mazda]

This is a tough one. Iron man with his recent upgrades is very different then the Iron Man that faced BP in his own comic. I am to say the least a bit undecided, even after reading the debates. The one thing I wonder is whether the Black Panther could obtain the codes to shut down the armour but who am I kidding. Sorry guys the coin gives my vote to:

Iron Man

 

[kytrigger]

Iron Man- Extremis is really the only thing that put it in his favor IMO. Both are utter badasses in practically the same fields, butthe mere fact that Panther IMO won their last confusing battle to me means that Tony woudl have worked night and day since then figuring a way to beat Panther, whereas Panther would have actually done more important thigns like rule his country and get it on with Storm.

Couple this with the fact that Tony now has teh Extremis crap in him, and I think it gives him the edge, if only slightly.

 

[POWdER-man]

Iron Man

 

[JewishHobbit]

Hmm, I'm gonna have to give my vote to Black Panther on this one. Close call though.



*edited to put the 'v' in give

 

[wiegeabo]

Very tough call. But I'm going to give the slimmest of victories to...


The Blank Pather

 

[Phaedrus45]

Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

Iron Man defeats Black Panther 4-3

 

[Phaedrus45]

FINAL FOUR,

Match 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio

VS.

Pluto (AHURA MAZDA) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: STARK TOWER

Built over a period of four years, it is an example of modern architecture. The top three floors were to be Stark's new home, but when the new Avengers were founded, he gave it to the team as a gift, to be their home when they needed it, and to be a meeting place and base of operations. Just like the Avengers Mansion Stark Tower is suited with state-of-the-art technology and an extravagant interior, including hanging portraits from former Avengers cover art.
When the team came together in this place, Edwin Jarvis was welcomed back to his longtime position as caretaker for the team. In the wake of the passing of the Superhuman Registration Act, Stark Tower acted as the base of operations for the government task force led by Iron Man and charged with enforcing the Act.
At the conclusion of "World War Hulk" issue #1, a violent battle between The Hulk and Iron Man causes the destruction and collapse of Stark Tower.[1]

Watchtower

The place where it stands now was the former site of The Sentry's Watchtower before he erased all the world's memory of him. When the Sentry recovered from his "mental virus", the Watchtower installed itself atop Stark Tower, convincing Tony Stark that it was fate that really brought them together.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

FINAL FOUR,

Match 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio

VS.

Pluto (AHURA MAZDA) bio

Again Phaed and I face each other.

This time however there are a few differences. One is that the location will favor Iron man. The other is what type of information each will have on the other. Iron Man has never faced Pluto in the past. Any type of knowledge he would obtain would be third hand. Pluto faced the Avengers but Iron man was not on the team.

Pluto is a Death God who sits in a council made up of the other Death Gods (which surprisingly includes Mephisto). Pluto will know he is facing a robot type person and Stark will know he is facing the Olympian God of Death.

Now onto the powers:

Pluto possesses all of the conventional superhuman attributes of an Olympian. Pluto is superhumanly strong, considerably more so than the majority of the Olympians. Among his race, his strength is equaled only by Neptune and Ares and is exceeded only by Zeus and Hercules. Pluto's body is also virtually tireless, granting him almost limitless superhuman stamina equaled only by his nephews Ares and Hercules and by his brothers Neptune and Zeus. Pluto's body is highly resistant to all forms of physical injury.He has proven capable of withstanding powerful impact forces, temperature extremes, and powerful energy blasts all without sustaining injury.

However, it is possible to cause him injury, but he is capable of completely recovering with superhuman levels of speed. The speed and extent of his healing powers far exceeds that of most other Olympians. Like all other members of his race, Pluto is immortal in the sense that he is immune to the effects of aging. He hasn't aged since reaching adulthood and is also immune to all known diseases.

Pluto controls vast magical powers which he can use for numerous effects including generating powerful energy blasts, temporarily increasing his physical attributes, granting superhuman powers to other beings or objects, creating highly durable force fields, interdimensional teleportation, etc. As a Death God, Pluto has a pact with Death that allows him to claim the souls of any worshipper of the Greek Gods and take them to his Underworld as his servants. He is capable of draining the energy and lifeforce from those that he touches, skin to skin, with his hand, even other gods. The various Death Gods have their own alliance, though there is some internal competition as well, as seen when both Hela and Plu.to tried to claim the soul of Odin after his death.

Pluto also is in possession of a helmet that renders him invisible and undetectable, even to his fellow gods. He also owns several adamantine axes. These axes are nearly indestructible and Pluto can use these axes to channel his magical energies.

Although he typically prefers to use minions, Pluto is a formidable hand to hand combatant. He is particularly skilled in employing his energy manipulating capabilities during combat situations.

Here are a few of the things he had done in the comics:

Notably, in his second Thor appearance, he fought Thor in an alternate future on earth which is not in Hades, and he fought both him and Sif. Thor was able to survive but not defeat Pluto. Again they battled in Asgard when Pluto came to get Odin's body and he was in the process of defeating him (having used his touch to greatly weaken Thor making him unconscious) when the Norns shattered his axe using a spell from behind their well. Pluto still had the better of him until Odin awakenned, Hela having restored him and Pluto left.

In his first appearance, having tricked Hercules, Pluto was able to sheathe himself in mystic flame which made him impervious to harm. Thor was only able to save himself by controlling the weather and using Mjollnir to drain the mystic energies. he however was not able to defeat Pluto in hand to hand combat.

In both appearances Pluto had full access to his armies and was teleporting back and forth.

There is one bad appearance which I can only say was bad writing given it happenned in Hades and Ulik was bullying Pluto. Pluto did not do anything....I have no explanation for it except for very bad writing. Please note especially this appearance happenned in Hades where Pluto is supreme.

I am sure nobody really needs to hear what Iron Man's powers are.

Having got that out of the way I will move on to the battle proper. This will be a very interesting and tough one. Under normal circumstances I would say Iron Man would not stand a chance given he has no counter to Pluto's mystical powers and Pluto is a match for him physically. However, here is a match in the home of Tony Stark and that is an advantage for him but not as much as some may think. I say that because even when the battle of the Hulk and Iron Man went into his home, he had nothing to prevent Hulk from destroying it. Tony Stark is all science and does not have much of a counter against magical opponents.

Pluto does have an advantage that he can render himself invisible and undetectable.

Tony Stark will take this battle to Pluto and attempt to engage him physically. However he cannot detect Pluto (even Zeus cannot when he is wearing his helmet) and he cannot penetrate Pluto's mystical shield made of flames. Ton's armour is not impervious to Adamantium which is what Pluto's axe is made up of and he wil not be able to detect from which direction a blow or mystical blast may be coming from.

This will be a good battle and one where both combattants will be tested and the Stark Tower will suffer but Pluto will inexorably come out on top given Tony cannot summon Zeus to help him out.


Winner - Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO:

Great battle, and one where Iron Man has a good chance of coming out victorious, especially considering he'll know a good amount of information about his foe...something Pluto's many other battle opponents haven't had. Plus, location totally favors Tony Stark.

Pluto:


Quote:
AbilitiesManipulation of magical energies,
Superhuman strength, stamina and durability,
Immortality,
Regenerative healing factor,
Energy-draining touch,
Ability to manipulate the spirits of the dead under his control,
Helmet grants Invisibility.

Iron Man:

Most of us know about Tony, but here is something Pluto won't know about: Tony's Extremis Armor


Quote:
After being critically injured during a battle with the Extremis-enhanced Mallen, Stark injects his nervous system with a modified techno-organic virus (the extremis process) that not only saves his life, but also fuses Stark's armor to his body. This allows him to store the inner layers of the Iron Man armor in the hollows of his bones as well as control it through direct brain impulses. Stark can control the layer of the armor underneath his skin and make it emerge from numerous exit points around his limbs as a gold-colored neural interface undersheath. While in this form, Stark can control the armor cyberpathically and suit up at any time, even if the armor is 100 miles away. Furthermore, the Extremis process has increased his body's recuperative and healing abilities. He is also able to remotely connect to external communications systems such as satellites, cellular phones, and computers throughout the world. Because the armor's operating system is now directly connected to Stark's nervous system, its response time has been significantly improved.

Now, let's examine Pluto's history:

In Thor 127-130, we learn that Pluto is desperately trying to get out of his banishment in Hades by making Hercules sign a contract that will switch out rulers; thus, freeing Pluto from his own contract. A couple important quotes from those appearances:

"Fear not his strength -- he is forbidden to employ it."

This comes from his contract with Zeus and how he is forbidden from using his vast power outside of Hades.

"By signing the Olympian contract, your own strength has been all but sapped away."

Hercules looses his power upon signing the contract. His power is gone, because he, like Pluto, is probably bound to Hades.

In Thor 163-164, we learn that a mystical barrier is place upon Earth, and as Thor enters, he finds Pluto with many new minnions. Some interesting quotes:

"My first act was to return to Earth to rid myself of anything that may aid 20th century mankind to resist me."

This shows something which a reader will notice about Pluto's many appearances...he doesn't really fight someone of scientific means. And, it shows that Pluto obvious fears that as a way to combat him. Plus, in most all of Pluto's appearances, he uses his minions to fight for him. In this two issue story, Thor and Sif aren't so much battling Pluto as battling the mutants from the future that Pluto has taken over as his minnions.

Why was Pluto powerful on this future Earth? As the following quote says, "He who lies within those walls must now be Pluto's victim," he has brought a future Earth where all technology that could effect him away, along with all these minnions. Once the barrier was finally smashed, Pluto minnions were defeated by Thor, Sif, Balder, and the U.S. army.

Also, let's look at Pluto's spell raising abilities. He stands before Thor extremely powerful at one moment in his Stygian Flame...but, a quick thunderstorm of water dashes the flame with ease, and he isn't as powerful at that moment.

Now, we have the very funny appearance of Pluto in Thor 221-223. More proof that maybe Pluto isn't so powerful on Earth, as he falls off a building after fighting Thor, hits electricity and disappears. Hmmm...not so powerful sounding in that appearance, and the thoughts that there is something about Earth and technology that Pluto truly fears.

Fastforwarding to Thor 279, Pluto has another mad scheme, but this time he flees from Ulik, as he screams, "The Troll is insane with anger." He claims "There is naught to do but flee to the deepest recesses of my dark domain." Again, like with most of Pluto's appearances, he flees in defeat.

The infamous appearance in Avengers 282-283 has one of the most damning lines to show why Pluto isn't so powerful outside his Godly realm when he's away on Earth:

"There is no more he can do, once we were on the upper pathway! His power above is limited by a millennia-old covenent with Zeus."

In fact, that covenent still stands, for Zeus has said in more recent appearances that he will kill Pluto if he sets foot outside Hades again.


So, why else would Pluto not be as powerful on Earth as he is in the Godly realms he traverses? Looking at Thor Annual #10, we might have an idea. The Gods of the various underworlds are uniting for one Underworld where there powers will finally be stronger, for they say:

"None of us may long lay claim to the spirit of any person who did not, in their lifetime, believe in us."

Of course, there are no people really on Earth, let along New York where our location is, who really believes in the Greek Gods anymore. It would stand to reason that without someone believing in you, your Godly powers will be much less powerful.

So, three factors make Pluto less powerful and a lot more warry about fighting a battle on Earth: The Covenent by Zeus, the technology of Earth, and the extreme lack of believers in Greek Mythology.

In Thor Annual #19, we get some interesting quotes from Pluto:

"No God or mortal can harm Pluto in Hades -- to which I led you."

From the above quote, even Pluto says how he is much more powerful in Hades than elsewhere, giving further proof that his power diminishes when he leaves Hades.

"Mortals believe we Gods can see everything that occurs in the cosmos ... but tis not so."

Shows how perception is not reality in how powerful the Gods are made to be thought of. Pluto was trying to find Loki, but even he has limits to his powers.


Now, I want to point out that in the many battles between Thor and Pluto, there are many occurances that happen almost every time. Pluto uses his horde of minnions to do his bidding, which he will not have in this upcoming battle. Thor and Pluto go head to head many times, and Thor rarely ever gets beaten down by Pluto. (Once, in Thor 199-201, he got knocked unconscious...but, that's the only time I saw that happen. There were times that even the mighty Pluto got slapped down by Thor, too.) Finally, the one constant with Pluto is he's always running from the fight, although he does have people like Zeus or Odin interfer...but, he's never being dominate at those times. Thor stands up to him without much problem. It is in no way a one-sided battle.

Another interesting note is never in one of these appearances does Pluto use a helmet of invisibility. There is no way to really tell how it works, as we don't get to see it in any of the appearances noted that I have.


The battle is really beneficial to Iron Man. He will have complete access to all the technology in Stark Tower. He'll have all the information that Thor and the Avengers gave about Pluto, and that information should be pretty vast; after all, every member of the Avengers would let the database know about their most deadly enemies and what weaknesses they would have. Sadly, Pluto just won't have this information. With Tony's new armor, he will have access to all areas and technology in Stark Tower at all time. He can remain hidden if needed. He can use the Tower's defenses against a weakened Pluto.

This is just a bad luck-of-the-draw for Pluto in many regards. Most importantly, he finally faces an opponent who knows about him. He faces an opponent not only on an Earth of great technology, but one whose home base he is in and who has all means of using that technology to beat him. The location is free from anyone else...Pluto has not a single follower to help with the power of belief.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

Rebuttal: Iron Man vs. Pluto

Pluto is a Death God who sits in a council made up of the other Death Gods (which surprisingly includes Mephisto). Pluto will know he is facing a robot type person and Stark will know he is facing the Olympian God of Death.

I do not think Pluto will be able to garner information from the other Death Gods. He cannot talk to others, and talking to the Death God would be going beyond his boundries. It's most likely that Pluto won't know about Iron Man...although, the term, Iron Man, and the picture will be about the only clue.

Notably, in his second Thor appearance, he fought Thor in an alternate future on earth which is not in Hades, and he fought both him and Sif. Thor was able to survive but not defeat Pluto. Again they battled in Asgard when Pluto came to get Odin's body and he was in the process of defeating him (having used his touch to greatly weaken Thor making him unconscious) when the Norns shattered his axe using a spell from behind their well. Pluto still had the better of him until Odin awakenned, Hela having restored him and Pluto left.

As noted in my opening debate, Pluto created a "time funnel" which made Thor go to a future version of Earth, where Pluto not only controlled the various mutants, but he made sure "to rid (him)self of anything that may aid 20th Century mankind to resist" him. That won't happen this time. Plus, while Thor might not have defeated Pluto, neither did Pluto defeat Thor. They went head to head just fine. (Plus, the appearance by the Norns is in Pluto's third appearance, not this one. He wasn't in the process of defeating Thor on his Earthly appearance.

In his first appearance, having tricked Hercules, Pluto was able to sheathe himself in mystic flame which made him impervious to harm. Thor was only able to save himself by controlling the weather and using Mjollnir to drain the mystic energies. he however was not able to defeat Pluto in hand to hand combat.

This is a humorous appearance, because in one panel Pluto is proclaiming how invincible he is in his Stygian Flame, and the next panel he's all wet, not able to do a thing. This really hurts Pluto in how powerful he is suppose to be. If he came against Iron Man in his Stygian Flame, the Earthly technology would just turn on the sprinklers to defeat him. A very lame trick on Pluto's behalf.

In both appearances Pluto had full access to his armies and was teleporting back and forth.

And, that's a major factor. Pluto cannot teleport back and forth without forfeiting the contest, and he won't have his minnions.

There is one bad appearance which I can only say was bad writing given it happenned in Hades and Ulik was bullying Pluto. Pluto did not do anything....I have no explanation for it except for very bad writing. Please note especially this appearance happenned in Hades where Pluto is supreme.

Ah, but it's cannon. And, the many appearances where Thor is standing toe-to-toe against Pluto also is. Pluto has never really shown that he's vastly superior to Thor, as he claims. Thor is always willing to fight Pluto.

Having got that out of the way I will move on to the battle proper. This will be a very interesting and tough one. Under normal circumstances I would say Iron Man would not stand a chance given he has no counter to Pluto's mystical powers and Pluto is a match for him physically. However, here is a match in the home of Tony Stark and that is an advantage for him but not as much as some may think. I say that because even when the battle of the Hulk and Iron Man went into his home, he had nothing to prevent Hulk from destroying it. Tony Stark is all science and does not have much of a counter against magical opponents.

Actually, Tony Stark has faced being of mystical might many, many times, The Mandrin and Dr. Doom to name two. He has faced better, who aren't limited by being on Earth, too.

Pluto does have an advantage that he can render himself invisible and undetectable.

Again, I would love to see when he does this...I just never saw it. Plus, Stark Tower with it's "20th Century technology" would easily be able to notice him...it's probably why he doesn't like technology, where things like heat sensors and sprinklers can mean your downfall.

Tony Stark will take this battle to Pluto and attempt to engage him physically. However he cannot detect Pluto (even Zeus cannot when he is wearing his helmet) and he cannot penetrate Pluto's mystical shield made of flames. Ton's armour is not impervious to Adamantium which is what Pluto's axe is made up of and he wil not be able to detect from which direction a blow or mystical blast may be coming from.

Tony Stark is one who does not take a battle to someone without having to. Plus, Pluto doesn't like technology...Zeus doesn't have access to technology, so there is no proof as to what Pluto's supposed invisibility can do. Plus, proof would help as to what it can do.

The research has been done, there are quotes that back-up the claims about Pluto fearing technology. There are quotes that show Pluto isn't at his most powerful when on Earth, especially without his many minnions.

EDIT: Later this evening, I finally realized I left out one very important factor in this match-up: Iron Man doesn't even have to physically defeat Pluto. He just has to make it so for an extended period of time, Pluto will not be able to compete. Iron Man might very well have a possible trap figured out that will take Pluto out of the contest. For this reason, to engage Pluto in physical combat directly as soon as the battle horn sounds is ridiculous. The 24 hour prep time will have Tony Stark knowing the boundries of this contest and finding the best way in which to win. A nice trap would truly be the best solution to begin with.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Ahura Mazda]

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO: - Rebuttal

Great battle, and one where Iron Man has a good chance of coming out victorious, especially considering he'll know a good amount of information about his foe...something Pluto's many other battle opponents haven't had. Plus, location totally favors Tony Stark.

Pluto:


Quote:
AbilitiesManipulation of magical energies,
Superhuman strength, stamina and durability,
Immortality,
Regenerative healing factor,
Energy-draining touch,
Ability to manipulate the spirits of the dead under his control,
Helmet grants Invisibility.

Iron Man:

Most of us know about Tony, but here is something Pluto won't know about: Tony's Extremis Armor


Quote:
After being critically injured during a battle with the Extremis-enhanced Mallen, Stark injects his nervous system with a modified techno-organic virus (the extremis process) that not only saves his life, but also fuses Stark's armor to his body. This allows him to store the inner layers of the Iron Man armor in the hollows of his bones as well as control it through direct brain impulses. Stark can control the layer of the armor underneath his skin and make it emerge from numerous exit points around his limbs as a gold-colored neural interface undersheath. While in this form, Stark can control the armor cyberpathically and suit up at any time, even if the armor is 100 miles away. Furthermore, the Extremis process has increased his body's recuperative and healing abilities. He is also able to remotely connect to external communications systems such as satellites, cellular phones, and computers throughout the world. Because the armor's operating system is now directly connected to Stark's nervous system, its response time has been significantly improved.

Now, let's examine Pluto's history:

In Thor 127-130, we learn that Pluto is desperately trying to get out of his banishment in Hades by making Hercules sign a contract that will switch out rulers; thus, freeing Pluto from his own contract. A couple important quotes from those appearances:

"Fear not his strength -- he is forbidden to employ it."

This comes from his contract with Zeus and how he is forbidden from using his vast power outside of Hades.

"By signing the Olympian contract, your own strength has been all but sapped away."

Hercules looses his power upon signing the contract. His power is gone, because he, like Pluto, is probably bound to Hades.

I have read this book and if you notice Pluto changes the sudio by what was magical means. He then tricks Hercules. The rest of the comic is in Hades.

In Thor 163-164, we learn that a mystical barrier is place upon Earth, and as Thor enters, he finds Pluto with many new minnions. Some interesting quotes:

"My first act was to return to Earth to rid myself of anything that may aid 20th century mankind to resist me."

This shows something which a reader will notice about Pluto's many appearances...he doesn't really fight someone of scientific means. And, it shows that Pluto obvious fears that as a way to combat him. Plus, in most all of Pluto's appearances, he uses his minions to fight for him. In this two issue story, Thor and Sif aren't so much battling Pluto as battling the mutants from the future that Pluto has taken over as his minnions.

Why was Pluto powerful on this future Earth? As the following quote says, "He who lies within those walls must now be Pluto's victim," he has brought a future Earth where all technology that could effect him away, along with all these minnions. Once the barrier was finally smashed, Pluto minnions were defeated by Thor, Sif, Balder, and the U.S. army.

Also, let's look at Pluto's spell raising abilities. He stands before Thor extremely powerful at one moment in his Stygian Flame...but, a quick thunderstorm of water dashes the flame with ease, and he isn't as powerful at that moment.

Now, we have the very funny appearance of Pluto in Thor 221-223. More proof that maybe Pluto isn't so powerful on Earth, as he falls off a building after fighting Thor, hits electricity and disappears. Hmmm...not so powerful sounding in that appearance, and the thoughts that there is something about Earth and technology that Pluto truly fears.

I have to say you have manipulated what actually happenned in the comic very well.

You seemed to have ignored the comic showing Thor lying at Pluto's feet with Pluto holding an axe above him. If the Norns had not destroyed the axe beyond the well Thor would have died which is what the said.

And it was not a mere shower that doused the flame but Thor using his full weather powers plus mjollnir's magical energy absorbing abilities.

And to go from that quote to stating Pluto fears 20th century technology is an enourmous leap. He was bringing an army to bear not fighting an individual battle. And the final defeat of Pluto came when Zeus was contacted.

Fastforwarding to Thor 279, Pluto has another mad scheme, but this time he flees from Ulik, as he screams, "The Troll is insane with anger." He claims "There is naught to do but flee to the deepest recesses of my dark domain." Again, like with most of Pluto's appearances, he flees in defeat.

This happenned in Hades and therefore can only be deemed to be bad writing given Pluto has proved a difficult opponent for Thor on Earth and Asgard.

The infamous appearance in Avengers 282-283 has one of the most damning lines to show why Pluto isn't so powerful outside his Godly realm when he's away on Earth:

"There is no more he can do, once we were on the upper pathway! His power above is limited by a millennia-old covenent with Zeus."

In fact, that covenent still stands, for Zeus has said in more recent appearances that he will kill Pluto if he sets foot outside Hades again.

That is all good but Zeus will not be making an appearance and as I have shown Pluto has had enough power to pose great difficulty to Thor up to the point where Thor was almost defeated.

So, why else would Pluto not be as powerful on Earth as he is in the Godly realms he traverses? Looking at Thor Annual #10, we might have an idea. The Gods of the various underworlds are uniting for one Underworld where there powers will finally be stronger, for they say:

"None of us may long lay claim to the spirit of any person who did not, in their lifetime, believe in us."

Of course, there are no people really on Earth, let along New York where our location is, who really believes in the Greek Gods anymore. It would stand to reason that without someone believing in you, your Godly powers will be much less powerful.

What does claiming a soul have to do with the power he has. By your logic all the gods are less powerfull then because there are less to worship them but surprisingly in the comics they are not. And Pluto is not the only God who is linked to worshippers whereas all the others are not. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard.

So, three factors make Pluto less powerful and a lot more warry about fighting a battle on Earth: The Covenent by Zeus, the technology of Earth, and the extreme lack of believers in Greek Mythology.

First off Zeus is still as apowerful as before and Ares has become even more powerful. Hercules is also just as powerful. So that third statement is completely wrong. The technology on earth does not reduce his power and nothing has shown that it has because the fights with Thor happenned with technology not affecting anyone's powers.

The convenant with Zeus is the only thing I would consider. There is one thing about that convenant and that is Zeus needs to enforce it and Pluto has attempted to go around Zeus and always at first he succeeds. But others go and make Zeus aware, however, here Zeus cannot make an appearance and Pluto will know that.

In Thor Annual #19, we get some interesting quotes from Pluto:

"No God or mortal can harm Pluto in Hades -- to which I led you."

From the above quote, even Pluto says how he is much more powerful in Hades than elsewhere, giving further proof that his power diminishes when he leaves Hades.

"Mortals believe we Gods can see everything that occurs in the cosmos ... but tis not so."

Shows how perception is not reality in how powerful the Gods are made to be thought of. Pluto was trying to find Loki, but even he has limits to his powers.

First off he is invulnerable in Hades per that statement, but he retains power enough to fight Thor when not in Hades. And second off, Pluto is not omniscient which is what he is saying. None of the Greek Gods are. Hmmm...maybe he is just saying that he is not the God or the Living Tribunal. I never claimed he was.

Now, I want to point out that in the many battles between Thor and Pluto, there are many occurances that happen almost every time. Pluto uses his horde of minnions to do his bidding, which he will not have in this upcoming battle. Thor and Pluto go head to head many times, and Thor rarely ever gets beaten down by Pluto. (Once, in Thor 199-201, he got knocked unconscious...but, that's the only time I saw that happen. There were times that even the mighty Pluto got slapped down by Thor, too.) Finally, the one constant with Pluto is he's always running from the fight, although he does have people like Zeus or Odin interfer...but, he's never being dominate at those times. Thor stands up to him without much problem. It is in no way a one-sided battle.

In a battle in Asgard, Pluto knocked Hades down and it was only when Odin was awakenned by Hela that Pluto left because there was no longer a sould to recuperate.

Another interesting note is never in one of these appearances does Pluto use a helmet of invisibility. There is no way to really tell how it works, as we don't get to see it in any of the appearances noted that I have.

Actually, he does use it up to the point where he creates a portal which hides himself from Zeus in his fight with the Defenders. Up to then he was completely undetectable to all.

The battle is really beneficial to Iron Man. He will have complete access to all the technology in Stark Tower. He'll have all the information that Thor and the Avengers gave about Pluto, and that information should be pretty vast; after all, every member of the Avengers would let the database know about their most deadly enemies and what weaknesses they would have. Sadly, Pluto just won't have this information. With Tony's new armor, he will have access to all areas and technology in Stark Tower at all time. He can remain hidden if needed. He can use the Tower's defenses against a weakened Pluto.

This is just a bad luck-of-the-draw for Pluto in many regards. Most importantly, he finally faces an opponent who knows about him. He faces an opponent not only on an Earth of great technology, but one whose home base he is in and who has all means of using that technology to beat him. The location is free from anyone else...Pluto has not a single follower to help with the power of belief.

Stark is incredibly lucky that the battle in the final four is on his home terrain but that does not give him an automatic win. Pluto is on par with Thor regarding power levels and when I state Thor I mean the one that appears in his own comics not the one that appeared in the Avengers. Iron Man is not at the same power level.

His information will tell him most off that the only way to defeat Pluto is to alert Zeus. That is the only way the Defenders (the top team of A listers) was able to defeat him. And the Avengers also only were allowed to escape when Zeus was told about Pluto's treachery.

I would like an example of a battle where pluto was defeated outside of Hades without Zeus or Odin making an appearance.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Rebuttal: Iron Man vs. Pluto

I do not think Pluto will be able to garner information from the other Death Gods. He cannot talk to others, and talking to the Death God would be going beyond his boundries. It's most likely that Pluto won't know about Iron Man...although, the term, Iron Man, and the picture will be about the only clue.

I apologise because I put that statement to put his standing in the world not from where he could obtain information. The statement was misleading given i followed it up with what type of information he could obtain.

As noted in my opening debate, Pluto created a "time funnel" which made Thor go to a future version of Earth, where Pluto not only controlled the various mutants, but he made sure "to rid (him)self of anything that may aid 20th Century mankind to resist" him. That won't happen this time. Plus, while Thor might not have defeated Pluto, neither did Pluto defeat Thor. They went head to head just fine. (Plus, the appearance by the Norns is in Pluto's third appearance, not this one. He wasn't in the process of defeating Thor on his Earthly appearance.

It was more so he could control the mutants of future earth and avoid Zeus at the same time. And resisting does not mean defeating nor that your opponent greatly fears you. This was not Pluto personally invading; it was üPluto at teh head of an army that was not the most technologically advanced. Also when the barrier was done away with was Pluto hurt by 20th century technology. No he was not. That is a big hole in your argument.

This is a humorous appearance, because in one panel Pluto is proclaiming how invincible he is in his Stygian Flame, and the next panel he's all wet, not able to do a thing. This really hurts Pluto in how powerful he is suppose to be. If he came against Iron Man in his Stygian Flame, the Earthly technology would just turn on the sprinklers to defeat him. A very lame trick on Pluto's behalf.

Thor's powers are a bit above what a sprinkler system can do plus Thor also used Mjollnir's magical energy absorbing powers to defeat the shield of Pluto.

And, that's a major factor. Pluto cannot teleport back and forth without forfeiting the contest, and he won't have his minnions.

No but his power levels are quite high if he was able to.

Ah, but it's cannon. And, the many appearances where Thor is standing toe-to-toe against Pluto also is. Pluto has never really shown that he's vastly superior to Thor, as he claims. Thor is always willing to fight Pluto.

So is Hulk being strangled by a snake, the Black Panther holding the Silver Surfer in an arm lock, Thor forgetting he has weather powers, etc., etc.. Just note that that apearance happenned in Hades.

Actually, Tony Stark has faced being of mystical might many, many times, The Mandrin and Dr. Doom to name two. He has faced better, who aren't limited by being on Earth, too.

The Mandirin has no mystical powers. He had access to a very advanced technology which he was able to use create his rings which gives him his powers.

Iron Man faced Doom as part of a team not one on one.

Again, I would love to see when he does this...I just never saw it. Plus, Stark Tower with it's "20th Century technology" would easily be able to notice him...it's probably why he doesn't like technology, where things like heat sensors and sprinklers can mean your downfall.

And his hilmet renders him undetectable to sensors as well. It magically eliminates all sign of him which why for example he all of a sudden appeared against the Defenders. the reason why do not see him wear it in the comics often is because there would not be much of a comic if he was. His invisibility includes undetectability.

Tony Stark is one who does not take a battle to someone without having to. Plus, Pluto doesn't like technology...Zeus doesn't have access to technology, so there is no proof as to what Pluto's supposed invisibility can do. Plus, proof would help as to what it can do.

The research has been done, there are quotes that back-up the claims about Pluto fearing technology. There are quotes that show Pluto isn't at his most powerful when on Earth, especially without his many minnions.

Your quotes seem to take quite a bit out of context and manipulate the truth quite well. He does not fear 20th century technology as you claim.

I would not mind if the scans of the comics were posted here.

EDIT: Later this evening, I finally realized I left out one very important factor in this match-up: Iron Man doesn't even have to physically defeat Pluto. He just has to make it so for an extended period of time, Pluto will not be able to compete. Iron Man might very well have a possible trap figured out that will take Pluto out of the contest. For this reason, to engage Pluto in physical combat directly as soon as the battle horn sounds is ridiculous. The 24 hour prep time will have Tony Stark knowing the boundries of this contest and finding the best way in which to win. A nice trap would truly be the best solution to begin with.

This is what I expected. First off, Pluto will be magically undetectable to Iron Man and the Stark Tower and second he can teleport from anywhere within the Stark Tower so really imprisonment is not an option.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO: - Rebuttal

I have to say you have manipulated what actually happenned in the comic very well.

You seemed to have ignored the comic showing Thor lying at Pluto's feet with Pluto holding an axe above him. If the Norns had not destroyed the axe beyond the well Thor would have died which is what the said.

Actually, I haven't manipulated those events. What you are talking about is from Thor 199-201. The thing with Thor is that in his many fights with Pluto, it's the one time he's really on his back about to be defeated. But, Thor is different from Iron Man, especially when you look at all of his battles with Pluto. It's all hand to hand combat, something that Pluto will not be getting with Iron Man. Plus, there are several instances where Pluto is laying on his back, too, when fighting Thor.

And it was not a mere shower that doused the flame but Thor using his full weather powers plus mjollnir's magical energy absorbing abilities.

It was water that doused his flames. There wasn't anything magical about the water...it was just water from a storm, and the waters from a sprinkler system would have the same effect.

And to go from that quote to stating Pluto fears 20th century technology is an enourmous leap. He was bringing an army to bear not fighting an individual battle. And the final defeat of Pluto came when Zeus was contacted.

Pluto does fear 20th Century technology...it's in his own words. This time I'm not quoting Thor or another source...that quote is directly from the man himself. And, when the barrier gets broken down and the mutates attack, the U.S. military and the Asgardians seem to be holding their own very nicely. Pluto is not totally dominating anything in that battle.

This happenned in Hades and therefore can only be deemed to be bad writing given Pluto has proved a difficult opponent for Thor on Earth and Asgard.

But, it happened. It's cannon, as we've heard before.

That is all good but Zeus will not be making an appearance and as I have shown Pluto has had enough power to pose great difficulty to Thor up to the point where Thor was almost defeated.

You will notice that in all of Pluto's battles, he hasn't fought a foe like Iron Man. Pluto generally handles people who are hand-to-hand combat. Tony Stark will be coming at Pluto with skills and technology he's never faced before.

What does claiming a soul have to do with the power he has. By your logic all the gods are less powerfull then because there are less to worship them but surprisingly in the comics they are not. And Pluto is not the only God who is linked to worshippers whereas all the others are not. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard.

Many of the Hellish characters in Marvel comics are not served well by appearing outside there realm. It's why "the gig was up" for me last round with Belasco...my secret had been learned, which is he really shouldn't be outside his realm. (You might have noticed I didn't really debate that match, as I knew he didn't stand a chance.) Pluto, as has been shown, is going to be more powerful in a realm that believes in him and inwhich he is shown to have vast power. He even states that in Hades, he's invincible, meaning outside of it he wouldn't be. This just links the two together for a greater understanding of why he might not be so powerful outside his realm. After all, if a God isn't believed in anymore, is he really a God?

First off Zeus is still as apowerful as before and Ares has become even more powerful. Hercules is also just as powerful. So that third statement is completely wrong. The technology on earth does not reduce his power and nothing has shown that it has because the fights with Thor happenned with technology not affecting anyone's powers.

I stand by it. Technology does reduce his power, as is shown when he fell off the roof, hitting into electrical technology, making him disappear. Iron Man has a ton of electricity to work with, and will probably be using it on him. Nobody forced Pluto to flee in that comic. Plus, while Hercules and Thor might be just as powerful, we are talking about a character whose admitted in his own words that he's more powerful in Hades than elsewhere. Plus, we have the additional quote by Thor. Something about being in the underworld being linked with their kingdoms are different from the likes of Hercules or Thor.

Stark is incredibly lucky that the battle in the final four is on his home terrain but that does not give him an automatic win. Pluto is on par with Thor regarding power levels and when I state Thor I mean the one that appears in his own comics not the one that appeared in the Avengers. Iron Man is not at the same power level.

Actually, that's debatable. Thor's power levels are much different from Tony Starks. And, fighting style is quite a bit different, too. If this was Thor vs. Pluto, you'd very likely have a one on one fight in close quarters. But, this is Iron Man, who has direct access to everything within Stark Tower at his disposal. He will know he doesn't have to beat Pluto down, just trap him for a certain amount of time or incapacitate him. As I've said, Pluto is not used to dealing with a person relying on technology...but, Tony is used to dealing with Gods and people of mystical means. We know that Tony prepares for battles ahead of time. I'm sure he even has a plan to take out Thor if need be. He'll be prepared for someone like Pluto.

His information will tell him most off that the only way to defeat Pluto is to alert Zeus. That is the only way the Defenders (the top team of A listers) was able to defeat him. And the Avengers also only were allowed to escape when Zeus was told about Pluto's treachery.

I would like an example of a battle where pluto was defeated outside of Hades without Zeus or Odin making an appearance.

Falling off the roof, hitting into electricity, and then disappearing right away. Running from Ulik, too, would be an example.

The fact remains that Pluto hasn't fought anyone with the technological means of Tony Stark. The opposite cannot be said about Iron Man; he has faced both supposed Gods and magical users. If there is one person who would have the means to defeat Pluto, I'd place my money on Stark.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Phaedrus45]

It was more so he could control the mutants of future earth and avoid Zeus at the same time. And resisting does not mean defeating nor that your opponent greatly fears you. This was not Pluto personally invading; it was üPluto at teh head of an army that was not the most technologically advanced. Also when the barrier was done away with was Pluto hurt by 20th century technology. No he was not. That is a big hole in your argument.

Yet, Pluto and his vast minnions aren't advancing their power position in that battle anymore than the U.S. Army and the three Asgardians. If you read the issue (and, many of the Thor/Pluto battles) they seem much more like stalemates than Pluto winning. Even Thor knocks down Pluto a few times (and, like an idiot, he decides to talk instead of taking any kind of advantage...Thor is one verbose MFer!)

Thor's powers are a bit above what a sprinkler system can do plus Thor also used Mjollnir's magical energy absorbing powers to defeat the shield of Pluto.

Again, the water is not portrayed as being mystical in nature in any way or form. He's doused by simple water from a storm, which is probably the crappiest defeat of a magical power I've ever seen. I admit it's crappy writing...but, it's cannon. I'm going to use it to my advantage. Also, all the mentions of Pluto's power isn't like going up against Tony Stark, the master of technology.

The Mandirin has no mystical powers. He had access to a very advanced technology which he was able to use create his rings which gives him his powers.

Iron Man faced Doom as part of a team not one on one.

When I did a magic search on Mandarin, I got "magic rings." Doing further research, it seemed that site deeming Mandarin's rings as magic is incorrect. However, Iron Man has faced Doom one on one on more than one occasion. In fact, they even made a special trade paperback a year ago reprinting their many battles:



I also want to point out that Iron Man's knowledge of mystical powers are so good that he took a mystical Asgardian crystal that Thor have him and used it in making his ThorBuster Armor.

Plus, Iron Man has been fighting side by side with magic users, like Dr. Strange and Scarlet Witch. We know he's made armor against the likes of Hulk, Black Panther, and Thor...it stands to reason he's delved into the thoughts of magic users, too.

And his hilmet renders him undetectable to sensors as well. It magically eliminates all sign of him which why for example he all of a sudden appeared against the Defenders. the reason why do not see him wear it in the comics often is because there would not be much of a comic if he was. His invisibility includes undetectability.

But, technology is where Pluto is susceptable. A foot on the floor of Stark Tower is going to be noticed. Pluto's magic is not designed to go against technology that Stark would have, and it's evident in Pluto's own words, realizing that "20th Century Technology" can make others immune to his powers.

I would not mind if the scans of the comics were posted here.

I don't have the means to scan comics, otherwise I gladly would. Again, I quote my sources, and Pluto's own words damn him.

This is what I expected. First off, Pluto will be magically undetectable to Iron Man and the Stark Tower and second he can teleport from anywhere within the Stark Tower so really imprisonment is not an option.

Again, we know that Pluto doesn't like Earthly technology, because Mythical Lore does not account for Scientific Reasoning. The Gods of yesterday didn't make these mystical weapons having to think about future technology which would make them ineffective. Remember, Pluto's weapons were made in a day long, long ago, a time more effective against the likes of Conan than Iron Man.

Winner = Iron Man

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Actually, I haven't manipulated those events. What you are talking about is from Thor 199-201. The thing with Thor is that in his many fights with Pluto, it's the one time he's really on his back about to be defeated. But, Thor is different from Iron Man, especially when you look at all of his battles with Pluto. It's all hand to hand combat, something that Pluto will not be getting with Iron Man. Plus, there are several instances where Pluto is laying on his back, too, when fighting Thor.

The reason why I say you manipulated is that if you look at the comic again the mutates are defeating the army who were incapable of hurting them. Balder and Sif were however helping and able to do some damage.

The fight then became a fight between Pluto and Thor. In the final page of that sequence, they are battling hand to hand when Pluto states with one stygian spell that he can put an end to Thor. Just before he does Zeus appears and states that he will first have to answer him.

Now, I have no idea where from where you thought Pluto was afraid of 20th century technology whereas the technology he brought over was far superiour.

It was water that doused his flames. There wasn't anything magical about the water...it was just water from a storm, and the waters from a sprinkler system would have the same effect.

All I am saying it was a downpour that Thor caused and it was pretty crappy writing.

Pluto does fear 20th Century technology...it's in his own words. This time I'm not quoting Thor or another source...that quote is directly from the man himself. And, when the barrier gets broken down and the mutates attack, the U.S. military and the Asgardians seem to be holding their own very nicely. Pluto is not totally dominating anything in that battle.

This is where I completely disagree with you. I feel we did not read the same comic. I read the comic last night and the mutates were winning the battle with technology beyond what the army had including ray guns that were melting buildings. Plus the bullets of the army were not harming the mutates. The only ones really doing damage were Sif and Balder.

You will notice that in all of Pluto's battles, he hasn't fought a foe like Iron Man. Pluto generally handles people who are hand-to-hand combat. Tony Stark will be coming at Pluto with skills and technology he's never faced before.

That is why he tricked Hercules using a disguise, appeared in the Thunderbolts as a behind the picture mastermind and is a KING in his realm. Not to mention he was able to defeat the Defenders A team which includes both the Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange until Zeus was made aware. He can fight from a distance as well as up close.

Many of the Hellish characters in Marvel comics are not served well by appearing outside there realm. It's why "the gig was up" for me last round with Belasco...my secret had been learned, which is he really shouldn't be outside his realm. (You might have noticed I didn't really debate that match, as I knew he didn't stand a chance.) Pluto, as has been shown, is going to be more powerful in a realm that believes in him and inwhich he is shown to have vast power. He even states that in Hades, he's invincible, meaning outside of it he wouldn't be. This just links the two together for a greater understanding of why he might not be so powerful outside his realm. After all, if a God isn't believed in anymore, is he really a God?

The Olympians have powers which are innate. And think there is enough information out there that outside of his realm, Pluto is AT LEAST on par with Thor. The only instance where he looks weak is when Ulik threatens him and that was in Hades. The Pluto here is not weak.

I stand by it. Technology does reduce his power, as is shown when he fell off the roof, hitting into electrical technology, making him disappear. Iron Man has a ton of electricity to work with, and will probably be using it on him. Nobody forced Pluto to flee in that comic. Plus, while Hercules and Thor might be just as powerful, we are talking about a character whose admitted in his own words that he's more powerful in Hades than elsewhere. Plus, we have the additional quote by Thor. Something about being in the underworld being linked with their kingdoms are different from the likes of Hercules or Thor.

This is the same Pluto that we see at the head of an army who is using technology which is melting or mutating buildings and standing on a tank against the Avengers. And I am not going to repeat everytime that given he poses a challenge to Thor outside of Hades, his power is at least on par with him.

Actually, that's debatable. Thor's power levels are much different from Tony Starks. And, fighting style is quite a bit different, too. If this was Thor vs. Pluto, you'd very likely have a one on one fight in close quarters. But, this is Iron Man, who has direct access to everything within Stark Tower at his disposal. He will know he doesn't have to beat Pluto down, just trap him for a certain amount of time or incapacitate him. As I've said, Pluto is not used to dealing with a person relying on technology...but, Tony is used to dealing with Gods and people of mystical means. We know that Tony prepares for battles ahead of time. I'm sure he even has a plan to take out Thor if need be. He'll be prepared for someone like Pluto.

And pluto can teleport himself so how will he entrap him. Electricity is not going to harm him that much. And this is the God of Death who has a nephew named Hepheastus who guess waht is the God of forging and who has great knowledge of technology. How do you think Pluto has tanks.

The fact remains that Pluto hasn't fought anyone with the technological means of Tony Stark. The opposite cannot be said about Iron Man; he has faced both supposed Gods and magical users. If there is one person who would have the means to defeat Pluto, I'd place my money on Stark.

The thing about Iron Man is that most of the Gods and magical opponents he faced was as part of a team. He has barely faced any on his own.

Yet, Pluto and his vast minnions aren't advancing their power position in that battle anymore than the U.S. Army and the three Asgardians. If you read the issue (and, many of the Thor/Pluto battles) they seem much more like stalemates than Pluto winning. Even Thor knocks down Pluto a few times (and, like an idiot, he decides to talk instead of taking any kind of advantage...Thor is one verbose MFer!)

Pluto also hurts Thor. And the Battle ended with Pluto claiming he could end the battle with one spell from his fingers when Zeus all of a sudden appeared to end the combat. And the US army was losing given the battle lasted less then an hour. Please go read the comic again.

Again, the water is not portrayed as being mystical in nature in any way or form. He's doused by simple water from a storm, which is probably the crappiest defeat of a magical power I've ever seen. I admit it's crappy writing...but, it's cannon. I'm going to use it to my advantage. Also, all the mentions of Pluto's power isn't like going up against Tony Stark, the master of technology.

All I can say it was terrible downpour that was caused by Thor.

When I did a magic search on Mandarin, I got "magic rings." Doing further research, it seemed that site deeming Mandarin's rings as magic is incorrect. However, Iron Man has faced Doom one on one on more than one occasion. In fact, they even made a special trade paperback a year ago reprinting their many battles:

Yes but you will notice in their face offs Doom barely uses any magic and it seems more a fight between the 2 armours.

I also want to point out that Iron Man's knowledge of mystical powers are so good that he took a mystical Asgardian crystal that Thor have him and used it in making his ThorBuster Armor.

I hope you are not stating that since Iron man was able to use the crystal which feeding energy to part of the country to feed energy into his own armour he can prevent spells and other such things. That is not going to happen. And for the record, Thor tore up the Thorbuster armour.

Plus, Iron Man has been fighting side by side with magic users, like Dr. Strange and Scarlet Witch. We know he's made armor against the likes of Hulk, Black Panther, and Thor...it stands to reason he's delved into the thoughts of magic users, too.

Hulk demolished his armour recnetly and he had allot more knowledge of these characters then he has of Pluto who he has never met. And he tends to rely on other magic users to deal with the magic aspects. He wasn't exactly effective against the Scarlet Witch during disassembled; now was he. Dr. Strange had to come to help and retconn the hell out of the Scarlet Witch.

But, technology is where Pluto is susceptable. A foot on the floor of Stark Tower is going to be noticed. Pluto's magic is not designed to go against technology that Stark would have, and it's evident in Pluto's own words, realizing that "20th Century Technology" can make others immune to his powers.

Pluto on tank

If you scroll down you will see a picture of Pluto on his tank when fighting the Avengers. And the tank is more sophisticated then the ones that were created by Stark or during the 20th or even the 21st century. And you are using that one quote which says that he got rid of 20th century tech which could resist him and his armies to meaning he is afraid of it when he has battled the defenders on Earth. 20th century tech does not scare him. Lert me put it to you another way, in a war, the first step is to do away with any point of resistance even if that resistance is mild. It is the step to complete victory.

Pluto is an Olympian with Olympian Durability who also wears full body armour and can surround himself with shielding and can magically rnder himself invisible and more importantly undetectable.

I don't have the means to scan comics, otherwise I gladly would. Again, I quote my sources, and Pluto's own words damn him.

No actually what you are doing is taking a quote out of context and then interpreting it to fit what you want. I read the same comic as you and all I could tell is when the barier went down the mutates were winning until Zeus showed up with his face in the sky.

Again, we know that Pluto doesn't like Earthly technology, because Mythical Lore does not account for Scientific Reasoning. The Gods of yesterday didn't make these mystical weapons having to think about future technology which would make them ineffective. Remember, Pluto's weapons were made in a day long, long ago, a time more effective against the likes of Conan than Iron Man.

Actually, WE KNOW NOTHING of the sort. His axe is made of Adamantium which is still the most effective metal. His tanks were more advanced then those you see today. Hepheastus is a master of technology. And his helmet is just as effective against people with tech as it magically makes him UNDETECTABLE and by the way, Pluto did not create it, it was the Cyclops.

Iron man does not have technology to defeat elder Greek Gods and that is what Pluto is.

Winner = Pluto

 

[Phaedrus45]

Well, I read your rebuttal, and was about to rebutt it...but, realized all that we'd be doing now is going back and forth between our arguments about who's right and who's better. So, my rebuttal is that I pretty much believe my side of things, you believe your side of things, and we'll let the voters decide now. (Plus, I really believe there is a point the voters get tired of reading the same arguments over and over.)

Good luck!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Well, I read your rebuttal, and was about to rebutt it...but, realized all that we'd be doing now is going back and forth between our arguments about who's right and who's better. So, my rebuttal is that I pretty much believe my side of things, you believe your side of things, and we'll let the voters decide now. (Plus, I really believe there is a point the voters get tired of reading the same arguments over and over.)

Good luck!

This is hilarious because when I saw you posted I thought I would be writing just what you did above. Godd luck to you.

I will say in conclusion that Pluto can teleport and is wearing a helmet which renders him undetectable and invisible.

 

[Phaedrus45]

debating Is Over!

voting May Begin!!!