Contest Of Marvels (Season 3) - Thread 1

[random_havoc]

omega red
psycho man
warstar
klaw

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Spider-Woman (Veranke)

Blazing Skull

Warstar

Klaw

 

[Phaedrus45]

MyVotes:

*Spider-Woman-Veranke -

Spoiler

Just one point...the location wouldn't be destroyed, unless noted in the location notes. All locations are in their normal versions at some unknown point in time.

*Psycho-Man

*Warstar

*Klaw

 

[wiegeabo]

Omega Red

Psycho Man

Warstar

Klaw

 

[POWdER-man]

Omega Red
Psycho Man
Warstar
Klaw

 

[JewishHobbit]

Final Results:

Spider-Woman (Veranke) defeats Omega Red = 4-3

Phsyco-Man defeats Blazing Skull = 6-1

Warstar defeats Anti-Venom = 6-1

Klaw defeats Sugar Man = 7-0

 

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 1

Match 1:

Twilight (POWDER-MAN) link

vs.

Green Goblin-Norman Osborn (AHURAMAZDA) link

Match 2:

Mystique (PHAEDRUS45)

vs.

Hulk-Savage (AHURA MAZDA)

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 2

Match 1:

Prince Of Orphans (JEWISHHOBBIT) link

vs.

Praxagora (PHAEDRUS45) link

Match 2:

Hornet-Eddie McDonough (HARLEKIN) link

vs.

X-23 (WIEGEABO) link

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Bracket 1

Match 1:

Twilight (POWDER-MAN) link

vs.

Green Goblin-Norman Osborn (AHURAMAZDA) link

This is an interesting battle but one Twilight will lose.

Everyone knows Osborne by now but as of this battle he is not yet the Iron Patriot but he has been the head of the Thunderbolts and has access to governmnet resources not to mention his powers as the Goblin:

The chemical solution devised by Norman Osborn from a formula originally conceived by Professor Mendel Stromm, turned Norman Osborn into the Green Goblin. In the process, he gained superhuman agility, strength, speed, stamina, and dexterity. Additionally, Osborn has gained a "healing factor" allowing him to quickly heal from lethal bodily damage (for example: being stabbed through the chest by large blades or have several pumpkin bombs strapped to his stomach). Aside from his physical advantages, the serum also greatly enhanced Norman's already above average intellect, making him a bona fide genius capable of making progress in advanced areas of genetics, robotics, engineering, and applied chemistry. The Goblin formula is also said to have driven Osborn mentally insane; defects in his personality were strongly augmented by the serum, resulting in dangerous mood-swings and hallucinations.


Weapons as the Green Goblin
The Green Goblin is armed with a variety of bizarre devices. He travels on his bat-shaped "Goblin Glider", an incredibly fast and maneuverable rocket glider. The goblin glider is armed with heat-seeking missiles, machine guns, and retractable blades. Other weapons the Goblin uses are incendiary Pumpkin Bombs capable of melting through 3 inches (76 mm) of battleship steel, smoke and gas-emitting bombs with an appearance like a ghost, razor-edged bat-shaped boomerangs (similar to Batman's batarangs), and gloves woven with micro-circuited filaments which channel pulsed discharges of electricity at nearly 1,000 volts. He wears bulletproof chainmail with an overlapping tunic and cape. His mask has a built-in gas filter to keep himself safe from his own gasses.

Pumpkin Bomb: A Pumpkin Bomb is a grenade used by the Green Goblin. A Pumpkin Bomb looks like a miniature Jack-o'-lantern and when thrown, ignites almost soundlessly and produce enough heat to melt through a 3-inch (76 mm) thick sheet of steel. The goblin holds these and a variety of other grenades in a shoulder bag he calls his "Bag Of Tricks". The Green Goblin has a range of other "Pumpkin Bombs" at his disposal. These include smoke and gas-emitting bombs. Some release hallucinogenic gases, while others emit a specially created mixture that neutralizes Spider-Man's Spider Sense for a limited period of time. All of these are covered in a light plastic mantle that flutter like a wraith when thrown.

Now Twilight has reality warping powers but only in close rane and she has no defense against long range attacks. What she is facing here is specifically long range attacks from soemone with very little morals and complete knowledge of his opponent and the surroundings.

He knows not to attack her up close. Instead he will use his glider and launch bombs and missiles from far away at a point where she cannot affect them. She has been defeated in the past using distance attacks and here we have a combattant who loves using distant attacks. He can also lay traps quite handily and twilight who has no extra senses and cannot extend her sphere of influence very far (exodus simply walked out of it and then put her down) will lose against Norman Osborn, the head of the Thunderbolts.

Winner - Norman Osborne

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Match 2:

Mystique (PHAEDRUS45)

vs.

Hulk-Savage (AHURA MAZDA)

These two are very well known characters that do not need much introduction. They have also encounterred each other in the past. In a physical fight Mystique does not stand a chance and she will not stand a chance in this enclosed area.

The Hulk will not like being enclosed and as such he will completely destroy the area and dig his way out. Mystique will be knocked out in the rubble.

In addition, the hulk and banner are almost merged now and the changes are instantaneous (one pannel) not to mention Banner can tap into the Hulk's strength. So really there is not much Mystique an do to defeat the Hulk.

Winner - Hulk

 

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Argument: Mystique vs. Savage Hulk

I like this match; which is naturally the reason why it's the first I'm tackling this week. Mystique is perfectly suited for a battle against the Hulk, especially when he's in his "Savage" persona.

First, Mystique's bio:

*Mystique is a mutant, a shapeshifter with the ability to psionically shift the formation of her biological cells at will to change her appearance and thereby assume the form of other humans. She can also alter her voice to duplicate exactly that of another person.

*Her body is not limited to purely organic appearances. She has the ability to create the appearance of clothes out of her own body. Mystique was shown in at least one instance transforming a metallic part of her costume into a functioning blaster pistol.

*This changed in 2001's X-Men Forever miniseries ... and boosted her powers so that she could now morph her body into taking certain desired physical traits depending on her situation at the time. Examples of this new ability include night vision, wings on her back, talons in her fingers, and natural body armor. She can even compress nearly two-dimensional like a sheet of paper to glide on air currents, similar to Mister Fantastic, which she uses to survive an explosion. She has moved her vital organs out of place in order to survive a gunshot to her torso. She has, once with strain, given herself two heads and four arms to facilitate a gun fight on two fronts.

*Damage to her biological tissue is known to heal at a relatively fast rate and she can form a resistance to poisons upon contracting them. Recently she has stated that her body mass is not fixed and can change when she does.

*Mystique is a cunning strategist in terrorist and commando operations, and adept at martial arts and information technology. She has a talent for finding, stealing and understanding cutting edge weaponry. She is a talented actress. She has some natural resistance to telepathic intrusion and wears devices to prevent her mind from being read by telepathy.


Now, for the Hulk, I go to JH's description of how he allows him to be in this contest from the Discussion Thread back on 03/16/09:

"As for Hulk's power levels. His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine. We decided Savage Hulk but never stated when that was experience-wise, so I'm not against him being his current form, as he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally. If he's still too much mentally then someone point it out as I'm not too familiar with the Hulk, but from what little I've read I think that's fine."

Of which was replied the next day by Ahura:

"That is fine and that is how I have taken him. His mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days but he still has memories of WWH. His power levels are the same and he still shows some integration with Banner who changed back and forth into the Hulk in the last story with Cho."

So, this is a savage Hulk who can change back and forth from Banner to Hulk.


The best part of this match is it takes place in The Vault...and, Mystique has a whole slew of connections in her 24 Prep-Time to use to her advantage, learning everything about The Vault, which area is best used to hold The Hulk, and any information she needs about him. This is clearly not something Hulk can do.

As for the battle, I'm sorry to say there won't be much of one. Hulk, being in his Savage Persona, is going to not be all that aware of when he's getting played by Mystique, especially since her ability to be someone else can be extremely realistic. She'll come at Hulk in a version of a character...probably one of his past loves, like Betty...and, gain his sympathy. She might even calm him enough to have him change back into Banner. She won't try and kill him, because even in Banner form, that doesn't always work. She just has to lead him to where she wants him to go...and, then, he'll be sealed in the Vault.

This is plain just a bad draw for the Savage Hulk. There are certain characters in this competition that could go the distance, making it to the final four; and, there are certain characters who probably won't, but have certain abilities that can take down a final four character. That's what we have in Mystique vs. Savage Hulk.

Winner = Mystique

 

[CoMarvels]

Debates May Begin!!!

Location: The Vault

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Vault

This should be nighttime, and the location is unoccupied.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Opening Argument: Mystique vs. Savage Hulk - Rebuttal

I like this match; which is naturally the reason why it's the first I'm tackling this week. Mystique is perfectly suited for a battle against the Hulk, especially when he's in his "Savage" persona.

First, Mystique's bio:

*Mystique is a mutant, a shapeshifter with the ability to psionically shift the formation of her biological cells at will to change her appearance and thereby assume the form of other humans. She can also alter her voice to duplicate exactly that of another person.

*Her body is not limited to purely organic appearances. She has the ability to create the appearance of clothes out of her own body. Mystique was shown in at least one instance transforming a metallic part of her costume into a functioning blaster pistol.

*This changed in 2001's X-Men Forever miniseries ... and boosted her powers so that she could now morph her body into taking certain desired physical traits depending on her situation at the time. Examples of this new ability include night vision, wings on her back, talons in her fingers, and natural body armor. She can even compress nearly two-dimensional like a sheet of paper to glide on air currents, similar to Mister Fantastic, which she uses to survive an explosion. She has moved her vital organs out of place in order to survive a gunshot to her torso. She has, once with strain, given herself two heads and four arms to facilitate a gun fight on two fronts.

*Damage to her biological tissue is known to heal at a relatively fast rate and she can form a resistance to poisons upon contracting them. Recently she has stated that her body mass is not fixed and can change when she does.

*Mystique is a cunning strategist in terrorist and commando operations, and adept at martial arts and information technology. She has a talent for finding, stealing and understanding cutting edge weaponry. She is a talented actress. She has some natural resistance to telepathic intrusion and wears devices to prevent her mind from being read by telepathy.


Now, for the Hulk, I go to JH's description of how he allows him to be in this contest from the Discussion Thread back on 03/16/09:

"As for Hulk's power levels. His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine. We decided Savage Hulk but never stated when that was experience-wise, so I'm not against him being his current form, as he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally. If he's still too much mentally then someone point it out as I'm not too familiar with the Hulk, but from what little I've read I think that's fine."

Of which was replied the next day by Ahura:

"That is fine and that is how I have taken him. His mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days but he still has memories of WWH. His power levels are the same and he still shows some integration with Banner who changed back and forth into the Hulk in the last story with Cho."

So, this is a savage Hulk who can change back and forth from Banner to Hulk.

As you mentionned my quote he can change back and forth and that is why your tactic is wrong.

The best part of this match is it takes place in The Vault...and, Mystique has a whole slew of connections in her 24 Prep-Time to use to her advantage, learning everything about The Vault, which area is best used to hold The Hulk, and any information she needs about him. This is clearly not something Hulk can do.

As for the battle, I'm sorry to say there won't be much of one. Hulk, being in his Savage Persona, is going to not be all that aware of when he's getting played by Mystique, especially since her ability to be someone else can be extremely realistic. She'll come at Hulk in a version of a character...probably one of his past loves, like Betty...and, gain his sympathy. She might even calm him enough to have him change back into Banner. She won't try and kill him, because even in Banner form, that doesn't always work. She just has to lead him to where she wants him to go...and, then, he'll be sealed in the Vault.

This is plain just a bad draw for the Savage Hulk. There are certain characters in this competition that could go the distance, making it to the final four; and, there are certain characters who probably won't, but have certain abilities that can take down a final four character. That's what we have in Mystique vs. Savage Hulk.

Beofre I go onto the rest from what source exactly is Mystique going to learn about the Vault given first she was a villain and the location was kept seceret from villains and second this was not somewhere which was very prominent in mutant stories which are really the only stories she appears in.

So please elaborate on how she gains all this knowledge of the Vault. In her last appearance, she was on the run.

In addition, you suggest Mystique will trick Hulk by making herself into one of his past loves. There are a few problems with that:

1. The Hulk even in his savage pesona is not a complete idiot as the comics portray him. Plus he currently has an integrated personality with Banner. In this battle, he knows he is facing an empty area with only one participant who is looking to defeat him.

2. She has no current knowledge of the Hulk. She has no clue who to turn into. And if she was present during WWH (which she was not) she would turn into Caera which would be the worst ting to do because this would cause him to revert back to his Green Scar persona who would not fall for tricks. Betty is no longer his love not to mention she is dead. So who exactly would she turn into when she has no knowledge of who the Hulk loves or loved?

3. Where is she going to trap him? The Vault cannot hold him in anywhere. The Hulk has broken through blast doors created to withstand a nuclear blast:

This was in his professor phase which was weaker then his current strength level. Not to mention the Hulk can move tectonic plates of a planet:

So please explain to me where he can be placed that the Vault could hold him even if she could trick him into a cell?

4. Anywhere she goes her powers will be affected and this will cause her to revert to true form. How does she prevent that?

Lets note one thing here, at any point the Hulk can end this battle with ease. He knows he is facing one opponent and knows who she is. He has a somewhat integrated personality with Banner who has greater influence then before. Plus he is not someone to lay in prison and regarding prisons deep underground, in the new Hulk comic he broke out and and dug himself up to face Rulk (the first appearance of the Hulk). And this was a prison built specifically for him.

The reality here is there is no prison that can hold him, Mystique has no real knowledge about him and certainly not about who he loves, the Hulk knows he is facing one oponent who will be the only person there and the prison is totally unable to hold him. So there can be only one result in this very lobsided match where the Hulk is by far the superiour fighter.


Winner = Hulk

 

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Argument: Mystique vs. Savage Hulk - Rebuttal

Beofre I go onto the rest from what source exactly is Mystique going to learn about the Vault given first she was a villain and the location was kept seceret from villains and second this was not somewhere which was very prominent in mutant stories which are really the only stories she appears in.

In my reading of Mytique, she has shown that she's got many different personas, where she has access to top secret government institutes. She's even been able to access prisons in the past. From this, I truly has no doubt she can get information about The Vault and The Hulk.

In addition, you suggest Mystique will trick Hulk by making herself into one of his past loves. There are a few problems with that:

1. The Hulk even in his savage pesona is not a complete idiot as the comics portray him. Plus he currently has an integrated personality with Banner. In this battle, he knows he is facing an empty area with only one participant who is looking to defeat him.

As we mentioned when coming up with which character of Hulk we'd be using, the agreement was "savage" hulk. Now, the discussion in the Discussion Thread was about power levels, and as JH said, "His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine." That is just his strength. As with Sentry, we wanted characters who could be deemed too uber to have some trait a person can exploit. This is not Planet Hulk Hulk...this is Savage Hulk, and we agree his power levels could be on the same par as they currently are.

I won't debate much else. My opening debate pretty much describes my strategy, and the only debate is who Savage Hulk is. To me, the clue is in the name, as we decided on that character for a specific reason.

Winner = Mystique

 

[Phaedrus45]

Opening Debate: Praxagora vs. Prince Of Orphans

Prince of Orphans:

The Prince of Orphans can transform himself into a green mist which enables him to enter locked rooms through small cracks and crevices, move swiftly on the air currents, and even enter a person's body to take refuge or terminate him. When in this mist form, the Prince of Orphans can fill spaces as large as a room or fit into objects as small as a test tube. Although not confirmed, the Prince of Orphans may be immortal.

Praxagora:

She is powered by an internal fusion core (it is actually a miniature star) located in her chest, providing her with limitless power, which she can discharge through her arms as superheated plasma streams, power enough to cut through most spaceships hulls. This energy also enables flight or the blocking of incoming attacks. As a fatal last resort, she can initiate a catastrophic reactor overload, building up to a powerful explosion of unspecified magnitude. She has transcendental strength.

She shares a telepathic link with other machines.


Neither character will know about the other...neither will know the location. What does benefit Praxagora is 1) She's not human, thus the methods that Prince normally might use to defeat his foes will not work here, and 2) Praxagora will be able to telepathically link with the machines at The Vault, and this only benefits her in battle. (The Vault would be able to handle other villians who can turn into a mist.)

Winner = Praxagora

 

[Ahura Mazda]

In my reading of Mytique, she has shown that she's got many different personas, where she has access to top secret government institutes. She's even been able to access prisons in the past. From this, I truly has no doubt she can get information about The Vault and The Hulk.

I have my doubts given she has been on the run in her most recent appearances and the vault was kept super secret from the criminal universe.

As we mentioned when coming up with which character of Hulk we'd be using, the agreement was "savage" hulk. Now, the discussion in the Discussion Thread was about power levels, and as JH said, "His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine." That is just his strength. As with Sentry, we wanted characters who could be deemed too uber to have some trait a person can exploit. This is not Planet Hulk Hulk...this is Savage Hulk, and we agree his power levels could be on the same par as they currently are.

I won't debate much else. My opening debate pretty much describes my strategy, and the only debate is who Savage Hulk is. To me, the clue is in the name, as we decided on that character for a specific reason.

I have a big problem with your whole statement because you are incapable of even answering a few of my statements which regard such things as who she could turn into that would influence the current savage Hulk. And exactly how she knows to change into her. In addition, which part of the Vault will hold him.

I would suggest both elements are key to your strategy.

In addition, yes this is the Savage Hulk but per JewHob's own remarks this was basically the current Hulk who is not a complete idiot. He is not the Green Scar in terms of intelligence but he is batttle savvy and can be aimed at people. This is the savage Hulk after WWH, not the savage Hulk of the 70s.

My whole basis is that even with the Savage Hulk personality your strategy simply does not work because 1. Mystique has very little knowledge of the current Hulk and as such has no clue on who to change into and 2. there is no place in the Vault that can hold him especially given his current power levels.

You even quoted my remark which states he is still somewhat integrated with Banner, freely changing back and forth.

If you are sure you are right, please explain how she wins specifically using your strategy and especially pertaining to points 1 & 2 above.


Winner = Hulk

 

[wiegeabo]

X-23 vs Hornet

Information-wise, these two will probably not know anything on the other. Although, X-23 may have the resources to dig something up on Hornet. Especially if there's public information on him. While X-23 will be a mystery to McDonough.

Now, Hornet has a long range attack advantage with his blasters and darts. He can also fly. But inside the prison, the flight advantage will be reduced significantly. And there's no way Hornet can prepare for Laura's tracking abilities. She sense Hornet coming long before he arrives, and be able to use he impressive killing skills to hunt and stalk her prey.

Even if Hornet is able to fight with her, he'll stand little, if any, chance in a hand to hand fight. And with her father's healing factor, she be able to push through the more long range attacks, if not evade them. And Hornet's armor will only provide minimal protection against her adamantium claws.

It's a fight where X-23 continues to evade or heal from attacks while wearing Hornet down. Eventually he will fall.


X-23 wins

 

[Phaedrus45]

I have my doubts given she has been on the run in her most recent appearances and the vault was kept super secret from the criminal universe.

She was on the run from Iceman in Manifest Destiny. But, with 24 hour prep-time...as we don't interact wtih other characters, especially...she's able to use her connections and personas to gain access to this information. This has been shown numerous times. Also, how super secret is The Vault, since so many villians have broken out of it?

I have a big problem with your whole statement because you are incapable of even answering a few of my statements which regard such things as who she could turn into that would influence the current savage Hulk. And exactly how she knows to change into her. In addition, which part of the Vault will hold him.

Not incapable...just, I feel I've given adequate expanation about Mystique, and those with any knowledge of her character knows she's got numerous persona's in the government...and, she's used those characters for gaining just such information.

In addition, yes this is the Savage Hulk but per JewHob's own remarks this was basically the current Hulk who is not a complete idiot. He is not the Green Scar in terms of intelligence but he is batttle savvy and can be aimed at people. This is the savage Hulk after WWH, not the savage Hulk of the 70s.

Actually, as I showed in the quote, this is about power levels. I'll repost the quote below:

"As for Hulk's power levels. His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine. We decided Savage Hulk but never stated when that was experience-wise, so I'm not against him being his current form, as he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally. If he's still too much mentally then someone point it out as I'm not too familiar with the Hulk, but from what little I've read I think that's fine."

From this, JH is saying this is "Savage" Hulk, and he was discussing power levels. Also, JH wasn't aware of current Hulk...and, we even know that Loeb hasn't really explained a lot about much of his characters. JH's own quote says "he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally." I'm letting those words speak for themselves, and as such, I'm letting my opening argument speak for itself.

You even quoted my remark which states he is still somewhat integrated with Banner, freely changing back and forth.

Your quote stated,

"That is fine and that is how I have taken him. His mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days but he still has memories of WWH. His power levels are the same and he still shows some integration with Banner who changed back and forth into the Hulk in the last story with Cho."

It didn't explain much, but I wanted to point out to the readers that a change from Hulk to Banner is what we expect from Savage Hulk. I do believe JH's explanation of Savage Hulk is what applies. As you stated, "his mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days."

Winner = Mystique

 

[JewishHobbit]

Prince of Orphans Vs. Praxagora

Okay, at first I was really worried about this match but the more I started to think about it and rooting through back issues. Now I actually think this could be an interesting match. So... bios:

Praxagora

* She is powered by an internal fusion core located in her chest, granting her her "limitless" powers. NOTE: It says limitless but she did struggle holding up a small shield against Bug fire during the Super Skrull mini.

* She can fire streams of super heated plasma from her arms power enough to cut through most spaceships hulls.

* She can fly and create energy shields NOTE: Shown covering her front side only, not her whole body.

* As a fatal last resort, she can initiate a catastrophic reactor overload, building up to a powerful explosion of unspecified magnitude.

* She shares a telepathic link with other machines.

Prince of Orphans

* The Prince of Orphans can transform himself into a green mist which enables him to enter locked rooms through small cracks and crevices, move swiftly on the air currents, and even enter a person's body to take refuge or terminate him. When in this mist form, the Prince of Orphans can fill spaces as large as a room or fit into objects as small as a test tube.

* A proficient martial artist who can use his powers to the fullest advantage in a fight.

* He is an expert tracker.

Location
Okay, now location is the Vault, and I'm sure this will benefit Praxagora since she has a connection to machines and the Vault has some good security measures. However, before the ideas are thrown out there, in order to trap someone in a cell and leave them depowered, I think it's safe to say that Praxagora has to know how Orphan's powers work to cut them off. That's a long stretch really. Security systems and such would still be an effective game though... though I doubt it'd do much to Orphans in his mist form.

Preptime
Prep-time will also probably do nothing for anyone. The Prince of Orphans will see that Praxagora is a machine, so he has some benefit here, but I don't see it being much. Praxagora will get a picture of an old man in a robe. Not much to go off of.

Battle

Okay, so looking at their powers it really seems like Praxagora has it over on Orphans due to the level of power she contains... however, after rooting through all her appearances in Annihilation and Annihilation: Conquest, she is pretty much just a flying robot Havoc. She has that power in her chest, but all she does is fire off blasma bursts. She does have some good uses for that plasma, effective, especially if she could get Orphans in his human form with it, but that's not his style so it's probably not going to happen.

Anyhow... an important thing here I think is experience. From Marvel.com:

She is from a race of complex living machines; they aspired to exist in complete harmony with every living creature. They have also mastered stellar containment technology; this enabled them to power themselves and their society. Sadly, it was their peaceful ways that left them defenseless, against the Annihilation Wave.

She's from a race of peacefulness and hadn't even encountered this kind of battles and such until Annihilation. She fought that war alongside Super Skrull as a grunt really, but always along with others more experienced telling her what to do. She did even less during Annihilation: Conquest, fighting a little but mostly standing around or flying a space craft. And then in the end of Conquest she is taken over by Ultron and the star in her chest is activated and she is blown to kingdom come, dead.

So that grants Praxagora with, what... maybe a year experience in battle? That's it?! She was pretty much just point and click, someone smarter's weapon. There was no gameplan, no expertise, no finese, nothing. Just fire plasma where bugs were.

Now, the Prince of Orphans has been training and fighting for a MINIMUM of 100 years. He has a MASSIVE experience edge. And with that experience comes finese, cunning, skill, strategy, patience, etc.

So with that experience, I believe that gives Orphans a signifigant edge over Praxagora's inexperienced power. But one hit should be all it takes, right? I don't believe so...

The Prince of Orphans has been shown fighting quite a bit in his Mist form, it's pretty much how he fights, period. And while in this form swords went through him, fists went through him, bullets went through him, Davos's energised "Chi" fist went right through him. NOTHING hurt him or slowed him down at all. You CANNOT physically hit mist!

So the strength of Praxagora means nothing if she tries to hit him. Her more likely assault will be Plasma bursts but it should just go right through the mist like everything else. Her greatest power really is useless in this match.


So, Praxagora's main offensive is shown to be ineffective, but can the Prince of Orphans actually defeat her? I think so... yes.

I see Orphans in his Mist form being sneaky, searching for Prax. She may find him first through cameras but with all his training and martial arts and all that I wouldn't be surprised if he can dodge that kind of thing. It shouldn't be hard to keep away from the cameras. Non-Ninjas can do that just fine and Orphan's should be a lot better than that.

But once Orphans and Praxagora do meet up I see Orphans attacking her in his Mist form. She won't be able to hit him and he can damage her, as she was shown being hurt by Bug lazer fire. However, I think he'll see that this is taking too long so I see him entering her body through her mouth. If he can manage to kick and punch people in his Mist form then I think it makes sense for him to be able to physically assault her inside by expanding his mist form and damaging internal functions and whatever else she has until she malfunctions enough and either dies or goes offline.

And if there's a worry about her star heart exploding in a massive explosion... that will kill her and chances are Orphans wont' even feel it in his Mist form. However, if someone doubts that, do note that the explosion is the physical sign of her death, while Orphans would then die as a result of her death, meaning she died first and lost.

And so, I think there's enough here to show that Prince of Orphans really does have a GREAT chance of winning this match. I won't call it easy, but it's definately in his ballpark.

Winner - Prince of Orphans

 

[JewishHobbit]

REBUTTAL

Come now, Phaed. You're better than this. This is one of my Immortal Weapons that you've vowed to eliminate! ELIMINATE ME!!!

I think I touched on each of your points in my own opening match but I'll mention them here as well.

What does benefit Praxagora is 1) She's not human, thus the methods that Prince normally might use to defeat his foes will not work here

This is true, but his experience should be enough to tell him "Hitting metalic robot may not guarentee victory, have back up plan ready." The entering her and expanding or destroying internal robotic organs is a suitable secondary plan that should prove effective.

2) Praxagora will be able to telepathically link with the machines at The Vault, and this only benefits her in battle. (The Vault would be able to handle other villians who can turn into a mist.)

Yes, I agree that this benefits her. However, she'd have to know how to nullify his powers to trap him in a cell and nuetralize him. However, I also ask this... exactly how will she make him enter a cell specially made for people of his type of powers? She can't force him, as she can't physically do anything to him. It's too much of a stretch to just hope that he wanders in himself.

The security systems benefit her, but not by much. Mostly it just helps her with the security cameras but my guess is that his training and experience should help dodge that benefit as well.



And as I've shown in my own write up, the actual physical confrontation is about 100% in Orphan's favor.

Winner - Prince of Orphans

 

[Ahura Mazda]

She was on the run from Iceman in Manifest Destiny. But, with 24 hour prep-time...as we don't interact wtih other characters, especially...she's able to use her connections and personas to gain access to this information. This has been shown numerous times. Also, how super secret is The Vault, since so many villians have broken out of it?

Well one, she has access to no individuals so talking to others is out and two in what database is she going to infiltrate to find information on the vault given she has no clue about anything regarding it. She would have to know where to go to and would need to prepare on how to infiltrate. All information which she is lacking not to mention it is not like she can teleport from place to place.

Not incapable...just, I feel I've given adequate expanation about Mystique, and those with any knowledge of her character knows she's got numerous persona's in the government...and, she's used those characters for gaining just such information.

The questions I asked were regarding what she can do to the Hulk and not on her past training which still does not affirm how she would obtain any relevant information.

The Hulk has had a few loves in his life and they are not really known to anyone. They are not in databases. So again I ask who des she change into to trick him?

Actually, as I showed in the quote, this is about power levels. I'll repost the quote below:

"As for Hulk's power levels. His strenght PLUS his mind was too much, but his strength alone seems fine. We decided Savage Hulk but never stated when that was experience-wise, so I'm not against him being his current form, as he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally. If he's still too much mentally then someone point it out as I'm not too familiar with the Hulk, but from what little I've read I think that's fine."

From this, JH is saying this is "Savage" Hulk, and he was discussing power levels. Also, JH wasn't aware of current Hulk...and, we even know that Loeb hasn't really explained a lot about much of his characters. JH's own quote says "he's pretty dumb and can be taken advantage of mentally." I'm letting those words speak for themselves, and as such, I'm letting my opening argument speak for itself.

Your quote stated,

"That is fine and that is how I have taken him. His mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days but he still has memories of WWH. His power levels are the same and he still shows some integration with Banner who changed back and forth into the Hulk in the last story with Cho."

Look at the parts I bolded above. I am not arguiing anything different. If you want to change the rules to suit yourself then clearly state it. However, to suggest that based on your comments that he can be defeated so easy is an insult. Then would it be the same to suggest that the Sentry would fly away if someone just says Boo. Yes he can be tricked but it is not so easy. And here I am asking how she tricks him given she does not really know the Hulk and even if she could how does she incapcitate him given the Vault cannot hold him. Theses are clearly two points you fail to discuss yet are keys to your own strategy.

It didn't explain much, but I wanted to point out to the readers that a change from Hulk to Banner is what we expect from Savage Hulk. I do believe JH's explanation of Savage Hulk is what applies. As you stated, "his mental state has reverted back to how it was in the older days."

Well done on taking quotes out of context but clearly I also wrote they can change back and forth freely. This is not "Hulk hates Banner" and has not been in a very long time. I have the current Hulk. You all agreed on that and anything else would be completely unfair given the sentry was allowed through.

The current Hulk is in his savage persona but that does not make him a complete idiot and to trick him means you need to know relevant information about him. The Hulk has never been someone who has refused to fight and is very likely to strike someone just for talking a little loud. Mystique only knows what she has read in the papers, even the government does not have that much information on him especially pertaining to his love life.

I have shown the Hulk cannot be held by the Vault and I also have indicated that Mystique knows nothing about him. In addition, power wise the fight would not last very long and the Hulk knows he is facing one opponent who is alone in the battlefield.



Winner = Hulk

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Hulk

Green Goblin

Praxagora -

Spoiler

I just don't see how she gets defeated even thought it was a much better debate on PoO's side

X-23

 

[Phaedrus45]

My Votes:

*Green Goblin-Norman

*Mystique

*Praxagora

*X-23

 

[JewishHobbit]

Green Goblin

Spoiler

Though Norman wouldn't know Twilight in the slightest. She's a 2099 character.

Prince of Orphans

X-23

Mystique

Spoiler

First thing, Mystique's been to the Vault before (I think she had access as a member of Freedom Force but I could be wrong) during the Marvel Graphic Novel, Avengers: Death Trap. She helped take down Venom and others in a jail break. Also, Mystique has been shown a number of times shapeshifting into military people to access hidden files and such. If she doesn't already know what she needs to know from her days in Freedom Force, X-Factor, and the X-Men, I'm sure she can find something useful. The Vault held Rhino so I'm sure it can figure out other powerhouses, but my money's on Mystique somehow taking out Bruce himself via instant decapitation. Just my thought.