Contest Of Marvels (Season 3) - Thread 1

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 1

Match 1:

Captain Britain-Brian Braddock (VANGUARD07) link

vs.

Twilight (POWDER-MAN) link

Match 2:

Green Goblin-Norman Osborn (MRGREEN) link

vs.

Deathwatch (HELLSTORMER) link

 

[Phaedrus45]

Bracket 2

Match 1:

Chrome (PHAEDRUS45) link

vs.

Prince Of Orphans (JEWISHHOBBIT) link

Match 2:

Nimrod (WIEGEABO) link

vs.

Praxagora (PHAEDRUS45) link

 

[Phaedrus45]

Location: Avengers Mansion (Before Decimation)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Mansion

Nobody will be in the mansion, besides the combatants. Remember, while you do have 24 hour prep time, that prep time does not allow you to place anything within the location before the battle begins. You can only take stuff into battle that you can hold on your character's person.

Debating May Begin!

 

[Vanguard07]

So should I start then?

 

[JewishHobbit]

Prince of Orphans Vs Chrome

Okay, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here. Chrome was not just another Acolyte of Magneto, in my opinion, he was the BEST of the Acolytes and I was really ticked off when they killed him off.

That said, I still don't think he has a chance of beating the Prince of Orphans. Well, okay, he has some chance, but 8 out of 10 times, the Prince of Orphans has it.

And I'll abreviate Prince of Orphan's to just Prince from here on out, as POO just isn't someone to be taken seriously

Okay, so here's the deal. Chrome can fly, but mostly has the ability to transmutate a person or things into other matter (read bio for better desription). He's smart and knows the chemical compounds and such to create steel, rock, and other things to encase or simply transform things into. He's petrified people, turned someone into stone that's hard as steel, and provided Magneto with a protective shield that allowed him to survive a space station crash into the Middle East. Dude knows his stuff.

Prince is a life long combatant and tracker who has the ability to transform into a Green Mist that can disperse to fill a room or minimise to fit into a key hole, etc. While in this Green Mist he can still fight in mist-like forms, using whatever form of king fu karate he does and he's dang good at it. He was able to not only take on Steel Serpant, a fellow Immortal Weapon, and one of the good ones at that, but he completely humiliated him and beat him down BAD!

So I think the obvious attack for Chrome will be to defeat Prince by transforming him into... well, something that takes him out of the match. He will try to petrify him like he did the X-Men or something like that. It really doesn't matter what he tries to transform Prince into, you get the idea.

So here's my thinking on that. What all is the human body composed of? All the blood, bone, skin, eyeball, fluids, the metal in your blood, etc. All these differant componants, the Prince of Orphans can transform into the mist. His clothing and the ink of his thunderer tattoo, it all can transform into the green mist. So I'm wondering, if Chrome attempts to transform him into something to still and defeat him, should there be any reason why he can't just go Green Mist and be done with it? I don't see any reason why not. He doesn't need to move to initiate his powers. He doesn't do anything. He just does it.

So if Chrome's transmutations don't work on Prince himself, then he'll have to transmutate things on himself to make him stronger for the inevitable fight to come. If he flies, Orphan in his green mist (which I'm pretty sure is intangeable by the way, I'll get back with you though) can catch him and just beat the tar out of him as he falls and render him unconscious as he goes.

Now if he transforms his skin into something hard that allows him to take Orphan's attacks, the Prince of Orphan can ENTER things, including people, to decompasitate them. So if Chrome finds something that leaves him physically resistant to Orphan, he still has to breath, he has nostrals, and there isn't anything short of cutting off his own air supply that can stop the Green Mist of Death from entering his body and strangling him, cutting off his air supply, etc, to lead him to his defeat.

These are just several examples of how the Prince of Orphans can defeat Chrome. When he fights, he is the Green Mist and there's little Chrome can do to harm him in that form, and according to my own reasonings Prince should be able to just go Green out of whatever Chrome tries to change him into and be done with it. And there's just a lot more ways available for Prince to take out Chrome than vice versa. Chrome has a chance, but 8 out of 10... Prince of Orphans has it. And I think those odds put him in favor of winning this bout.

Oh.. and I'll edit this in before Phaed gets his debate posted. Orphans is a stealthy person. He is a tracker and can find Chrome but he can stay out of sight in his green mist form, sailing in small streams along the wall or hiding in key holes, etc. until he finds Chrome. If he finds Chrome first then that takes away a lot of Chrome's first strike advantage. So that also add's an advantage for Prince in this match.

Winner - The Prince Of Orphans

 

[Vanguard07]

Captain Britain (Brian Braddock) vs Twilight:

Alright. Well to start off I'm just gonna give a brief summary of who Captain Britain is. He's a veteran member of the Captain Britain corps. An interdimensional police force that essentially deals with threats to the fabric of creation.
Those threats consist largely of reality warpers of one kind or another.

He's a longtime superhero with extensive experience in extra-dimensional, mutant and magic based threats.

Twilight is a reality warper. A relatively low level one at that. Her ability is to create bubbles of altered reality in which she can create a multitude of effects. She can envelope herself granting her superhuman powers such as flight or super strength. She can create bubbles around machines causing them to malfunction in her favor etc. Under most circumstances she can even use these reality warping bubbles to affect her opponents.

In this case I doubt she'd be able to manage that.

Captain Britain has prevailed over reality warpers in past who are of a much higher calibur. His brother for one, being one of the most powerful who's ever lived and as such has learned how to deal with them.
He also, due to his Captain Britain powers has a certain degree of resistance to them. Resistance enough to make it unlikely that Twilight can affect him directly with her powers.

Here's how I see it happening. Captain Britain (who's power levels at present are connected to his confidence level) is given this picture of a harmless enough looking young girl.
Seeing nothing to intimidate or psyche him out he enters the match extremely confident and powerful (he IS Captain Britain after all).

Immediately as the fight begins he begins scouring the hallways of the mansion at significant super speed for his opponent. After a few moments he rounds a corner and spots her.

Super human reflexes and reaction time coupled with the super speed at which he's flying allow Brian to react to spotting her faster than she does. He attacks.

Twilight, having been unable to find her opponent initially takes the precaution of powering herself up somewhat as the fight begins via enveloping herself in a bubble. It is thusly that she is able to withstand his initial barrage. Barely.

Dazed, Twilight counters by extending a "field of influence" towards Brian, causing the air within the bubble to explode. Brian's level of invulnerability allows him to withstand the blast and his "extraordinary level of perception" reveals to him what the nature of Twilight's powers are.

Now, with an idea of what he's up against Brian renews his attack with significantly more intensity. He knows from experience that you cant take chances with reality altering and so he feels forced to go all out.

Twilight escapes for a while by pulling out all sorts of tricks. Becoming intangible, teleporting, throwing all sorts of explosions and debris into Brian's way.

None of it works however. Blitzing her at extreme superhuman speeds and protected by top tier strength and invulnerability Brian eventually wears her down. Unable to truly escape under penalty of forfeiting, Twilight is unable to gain a true respite and begins to tire.

Her reactions slow. Her powers weaken. Eventually she fails to stop brian from delivering the knockout blow.

Victory goes to Captain Britain.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Chrome vs. Prince of Orphans: Opening Debate

This is a nice, tough battle that isn't one-sided in any way. First, the bios!

Chrome:

Chrome had the ability to transmute elements and compounds, even those of living beings. He could fly at high speeds by partially transforming the air around him into combustible materials, producing a rocket-like thrust (presumably, his power protected him from being burned).


Prince of Orphans:

The Prince of Orphans can transform himself into a green mist which enables him to enter locked rooms through small cracks and crevices, move swiftly on the air currents, and even enter a person's body to take refuge or terminate him. When in this mist form, the Prince of Orphans can fill spaces as large as a room or fit into objects as small as a test tube. Although not confirmed, the Prince of Orphans may be immortal.


It's clear that Prince of Orphans is the baddest of the bad in the Heart Of Heaven tournament shown in Iron Fist. Clearly, this is a character my opponent realized was hands-down superior to all the others. The problem is that Prince of Orphans faces in the first round a character whose powers can pose a bigger problem than he would be expecting: Chrome.

Neither character will know about the other. They are in completely different worlds, as Chrome is an X-Men opponent and Prince of Orphans is secluded from most of the world in K'un-lun. Both characters haven't appeared much, especially Chrome, who I think appeared for three issues.

Of significance is how Chrome died. Being a member of the Acolytes, "in an effort to sheild Magneto from harm, Chrome used his powerful abilities to encase his leader in a protective shell." He gave the ultimate sacrafice for his master; and, while he could have saved himself, he didn't. Let it be said he won't make that sacrafice for Prince of Orphans.

Prince of Orphans, I would suspect, will use his green mist form to search through the mansion for Chrome. Here lies the first problem for Prince...if you are in a battle for your life and see a green mist coming towards you, what would you do, especially given Chrome's powers? Yep, you got it! Prince of Orphans won't realize it, but Chrome is able to "ability to transmute elements and compounds, even those of living beings." This is going to be quick! He will transmute the mist into something solid, something deadly, and be done with it.

The problem, I'm guessing, is it's tough to think of a battle being over so quickly; but, Chrome has captured X-Men before, is in a battle for his life, and won't take a chance on a character he doesn't know anything about. I point out Prince of Orphans does not know the power he is facing, a power that was able to save the life of Magneto from certain doom...and, that's his biggest downfall.

Winner = Chrome

 

[Phaedrus45]

Chrome vs. Prince Of Orphans Rebuttal:

I still don't think he has a chance of beating the Prince of Orphans. Well, okay, he has some chance, but 8 out of 10 times, the Prince of Orphans has it.

This isn't about 8 out of 10 times; this is about the first time they meet up. I do admit if Prince of Orphans had some knowledge of his opponent, this match might go longer, or maybe even give him a better chance of winning (still, looking at how Chrome's abilities take away from Prince's best ability, I'm doubting it would be close to 8/10); but, that's not the case.

Prince is a life long combatant and tracker who has the ability to transform into a Green Mist that can disperse to fill a room or minimise to fit into a key hole, etc. While in this Green Mist he can still fight in mist-like forms, using whatever form of king fu karate he does and he's dang good at it. He was able to not only take on Steel Serpant, a fellow Immortal Weapon, and one of the good ones at that, but he completely humiliated him and beat him down BAD!

This is Prince's problem. Like I said, if you were in this battle and see a green mist, what would you do, especially since Chrome can "transmute elements and compounds?" Prince won't know of this power, and I do see him search the Mansion in this fashion.

So here's my thinking on that. What all is the human body composed of? All the blood, bone, skin, eyeball, fluids, the metal in your blood, etc. All these differant componants, the Prince of Orphans can transform into the mist. His clothing and the ink of his thunderer tattoo, it all can transform into the green mist. So I'm wondering, if Chrome attempts to transform him into something to still and defeat him, should there be any reason why he can't just go Green Mist and be done with it? I don't see any reason why not. He doesn't need to move to initiate his powers. He doesn't do anything. He just does it.

This is the problem with the battle...he can't just be done with it. As the bio states, he can transmute elements, too, not just solids.

So if Chrome's transmutations don't work on Prince himself, then he'll have to transmutate things on himself to make him stronger for the inevitable fight to come. If he flies, Orphan in his green mist (which I'm pretty sure is intangeable by the way, I'll get back with you though) can catch him and just beat the tar out of him as he falls and render him unconscious as he goes.

There is nothing that says Chrome cannot transmute the green mist. And, as I would say it's an element, I would believe it can be changed.

Winner = Chrome

 

[JewishHobbit]

Looking at Phaed's opening debate and his rebuttal against mine, I think the idea is similar. And I really think it comes down to 2 points: Who can get the first strike in, and can Chrome transmutate Orphan permanantly? I'll deal with these two to keep the other more inconsequental things we mentioned to a minumum.

This is Prince's problem. Like I said, if you were in this battle and see a green mist, what would you do, especially since Chrome can "transmute elements and compounds?" Prince won't know of this power, and I do see him search the Mansion in this fashion.

You're assuming the Prince of Orphans would just be out in the open for everyone to see as he sweeps the mansion. Thing is, Prince is a very old person with YEARS of experience at this kind of thing. He's trained and is an expert tracker. He will be searching for Chrome, but more than likely he'll be very secrete at it. Such as running in small streams along the wall, maybe inside the wall, etc. And his tracking skills will more than likely help him find Chrome before Chrome can even see him, and as a tractision Prince would know the value of first strike, especially not knowing his oponant. And Chrome was never shown to be very subtle. He was just as explosive and out there as the rest of the Acolytes. It shouldn't be hard for Orphan to sneak up and get the drop on him without any of his mist being seen. If he can do this, not knowing his opponant, chances are he'll quickly find a way inside of Chrome through his nose or mouth. He is massively quick, even in his mist form, so if Chrome tries to transmutate him and he's not quick enough, he could take himself out in the process.

This is the problem with the battle...he can't just be done with it. As the bio states, he can transmute elements, too, not just solids.


There is nothing that says Chrome cannot transmute the green mist. And, as I would say it's an element, I would believe it can be changed.

While I say there is a very good chance of Chrome being able to transform Orphan's mist, I also believe that Orphan can transform out of it. As I said in my opening post, he transforms metal, cloth, skin, bone, liquid, etc. into the mist... why not whatever Chrome turns him into?

Another thought though is this... Orphan's abilities are mystical in nature (if I'm not mistaken) so who's to say Chrome will even be able to recognize this mist he's become or know how to transform it. He may know what he wants to transform it into, but if he can't get the grasp of it's original nature he may not even be able to begin the transmutation.

Winner - The Prince Of Orphans

 

[Phaedrus45]

Chrome vs. Prince of Orphans Rebuttal

Looking at Phaed's opening debate and his rebuttal against mine, I think the idea is similar. And I really think it comes down to 2 points: Who can get the first strike in, and can Chrome transmutate Orphan permanantly? I'll deal with these two to keep the other more inconsequental things we mentioned to a minumum.

You're assuming the Prince of Orphans would just be out in the open for everyone to see as he sweeps the mansion. Thing is, Prince is a very old person with YEARS of experience at this kind of thing. He's trained and is an expert tracker. He will be searching for Chrome, but more than likely he'll be very secrete at it. Such as running in small streams along the wall, maybe inside the wall, etc. And his tracking skills will more than likely help him find Chrome before Chrome can even see him, and as a tractision Prince would know the value of first strike, especially not knowing his oponant.

The problem is there are many assumptions here based on what little we know about Prince. (Of course, I will also say the same applies to Chrome.) One problem Prince will have is he will not be familiar with the Avenger's Mansion. This might actually give Chrome a slight edge. Magneto has fought the Avengers on occassion, and Chrome could likely get some information from Magneto's files on this. In this regard, Chrome does possibly have the advantage.

This battle doesn't even necessarily come down to the "first strike." I will say that is what Prince has to hope for; because, once Chrome knows he's there, it's going to be very difficult for him to win this match, regardless of his skills. Also, tracking skills aren't going to be as effective without having a starting point. It's one thing to track an opponent when you know they start from point A to some point B. The two characters are being dropped somewhere into a location, and where they are is a mystery.

And Chrome was never shown to be very subtle. He was just as explosive and out there as the rest of the Acolytes. It shouldn't be hard for Orphan to sneak up and get the drop on him without any of his mist being seen. If he can do this, not knowing his opponant, chances are he'll quickly find a way inside of Chrome through his nose or mouth. He is massively quick, even in his mist form, so if Chrome tries to transmutate him and he's not quick enough, he could take himself out in the process.

There are many assumptions in this statement, also. As we have just a few appearances by Chrome, his attack on the X-Men with the rest of the Acolytes did not require stealth. So, there is no proof that he cannot be somewhat subtle. (Especially when going into a match-up with no knowledge of the opponent.) I do think this works best for Chrome, because if I was Prince, I would be thinking (hoping) that my mist power isn't something this strange first round opponent isn't going to effect. And, if he is going to be hesitant, then he won't just attack him with the mist right off the bat. (Plus, as I've said, it really sucks that the mist has to be green...that's a warning sign...a BIG warning sign.)

While I say there is a very good chance of Chrome being able to transform Orphan's mist, I also believe that Orphan can transform out of it. As I said in my opening post, he transforms metal, cloth, skin, bone, liquid, etc. into the mist... why not whatever Chrome turns him into?

Simply because there is no indication that he can do that. Let's not confuse the readers by saying he can transform metal, cloth, skin, bone, etc...He can only transform HIMSELF, and you are supposing the transforming involves all those things. If he could transform those things, then it would suppose he could transform into them. There is nothing to indicate that; unlike Chrome who can transform Prince into metal or other elements. Prince cannot turn himself into steel...or bone...or cloth. He can simply transform his body into a green mist. That's all the information we have on his character.

Another thought though is this... Orphan's abilities are mystical in nature (if I'm not mistaken) so who's to say Chrome will even be able to recognize this mist he's become or know how to transform it. He may know what he wants to transform it into, but if he can't get the grasp of it's original nature he may not even be able to begin the transmutation.

Again, Chrome will, most likely, realize a green mist equals extreme danger, and is going to be used against him. He'll transform that liquid into another property, and as we have no indication Prince can be another form besides himself and a green mist, we cannot indicate whether he would survive the transformation.

Winner = Chrome

 

[JewishHobbit]

The problem is there are many assumptions here based on what little we know about Prince. (Of course, I will also say the same applies to Chrome.) One problem Prince will have is he will not be familiar with the Avenger's Mansion. This might actually give Chrome a slight edge. Magneto has fought the Avengers on occassion, and Chrome could likely get some information from Magneto's files on this. In this regard, Chrome does possibly have the advantage.

I really don't see any advantage here at all. Someone Chrome works with sometimes fight people, so he an read files on their home... and that gives him an advantage? Sorry, I respectufully have to shoot that one down. And even if there was some kind of information in Magneto's system, I doubt anything there would help Chrome out at all. It isn't like Magneto has deep knowledge of the inner workings of the Avengers Mansion anyhow.

This battle doesn't even necessarily come down to the "first strike." I will say that is what Prince has to hope for; because, once Chrome knows he's there, it's going to be very difficult for him to win this match, regardless of his skills. Also, tracking skills aren't going to be as effective without having a starting point. It's one thing to track an opponent when you know they start from point A to some point B. The two characters are being dropped somewhere into a location, and where they are is a mystery.

It doesn't come down to first strike, but if Prince gets in the first strike, chances are it's over. That's a pretty big deal, let's not forget it. He has the ability to render Chrome unconscious before Chrome even knows he's there or can defend himself. So First strike is VERY important. And it isn't like he's showing up as a huge green mist cloud. He wouldn't be so stupid as to make himself so small. Tiny green mist speck floating about, thin stream in the shadows (the mist isn't glowing neon you know). Personally, I doubt Chrome would even have time to transmutate anything before he gets knocked out.

As for the tracking... let's remember Prince of Orphans' age and experiences here. He doesn't need to be in the first place, just a place, or maybe not even that. Listening carefully, calmly sitting still waiting for signs to show themselves, wait for Chrome to give himself away, or even come to him, etc. The Prince of Orphans is very old and has been doing what he's doing since before Chrome was born. He knows how to catch some young punk without being seen.

There are many assumptions in this statement, also. As we have just a few appearances by Chrome, his attack on the X-Men with the rest of the Acolytes did not require stealth. So, there is no proof that he cannot be somewhat subtle. (Especially when going into a match-up with no knowledge of the opponent.)

This I'll agree is assumption. But the Acolytes have never been subtle on anything, so it's an assumption I'm willing to make.

Simply because there is no indication that he can do that. Let's not confuse the readers by saying he can transform metal, cloth, skin, bone, etc...He can only transform HIMSELF, and you are supposing the transforming involves all those things.

You say he can only transform himself, but he transforms the clothing he wears as well. His pants, his robes at times, those are things exterior to him, but he transforms them and reforms them when he's finished.

If he could transform those things, then it would suppose he could transform into them. There is nothing to indicate that; unlike Chrome who can transform Prince into metal or other elements. Prince cannot turn himself into steel...or bone...or cloth. He can simply transform his body into a green mist. That's all the information we have on his character.

I don't get this at all! Does anyone go into a fight with Iceman claiming that since he can transform himself into ice, that he can also transform his body into the metal that's in his blood? No, it doesn't work that way. The Prince of Orphans turns his body and things attached to his body into a Green Mist and back again. That's what he does and has been shown doing. If Chrome transforms him into something else, it's still his body and I would imagine he could still turn into the green mist, freeing himself from that trap. And there's still the point that I'm not even sure Chrome would recognize what Orphan's mist is made of. It's mystical in nature and may not be the same make up as real mist, only comparable to it. So there's a chance Chrome may not even be able to effect Prince.

 

[JewishHobbit]

So Hopefully in Closing

It seems we're starting to go in circles now, so I think it would be best to put in some final says and leave it to the voters. There's a lot of assumptions in a match like this and it comes to a point when you just have to let the voters decide for themselves. So here's my final say on the fight.

Transmutation

It seems that Chrome's main offensive here is his ability to transmutate the Prince of Orphans. It seems to me that if he cannot do this then he has no chance to win. However, I believe that since the Prince of Orphans can transmutate his own body into the green mist, as well as all the organic things inside himself (metal, blood, bone, etc.) and the clothes he wears, that is a sign that he can transform other chemical make ups. Thus, if Chrome transforms him, he can just Green Mist himself out of it and continue the attack.

Also, since the Prince of Orphans' powers are mystical, there's still a chance that Chrome wont even recognize the chemical make up of his mist and won't be able to effect it to begin with.

However, due to the lack of info on both Chrome and Mist, these are left in the hands of the voters to decide what they believe.

First Strike

However, in order to transmutate the Prince of Orphans, he has to get in first strike. Prince is a very old warrior, well trained and the best of all the Immortal Weapons. He is quiet, strategic, and an expert tracker. He will be cautious when searching for Chrome because he doesn't know him, and since Chrome himself is a bit of a rookie, I think it's safe to say Prince won't have much problem getting the first strike in. He can move quietly, as most with his skills can, and he can go green mist and shrink it down to fit into a key hole so keeping himself small to sneak around and remain unseen until he finds Chrome shouldn't be a problem. He's a top notch hand to hand kung fu karate kinda fighter so a quick sudden strike SHOULD be able to take out Chrome before he's even aware Prince of Orphans is in the room.

Like I said in my opening debate, Chrome stands a chance, but in the end, I think Prince has it.

Winner - The Prince Of Orphans

 

[Phaedrus45]

I really don't see any advantage here at all. Someone Chrome works with sometimes fight people, so he an read files on their home... and that gives him an advantage? Sorry, I respectufully have to shoot that one down. And even if there was some kind of information in Magneto's system, I doubt anything there would help Chrome out at all. It isn't like Magneto has deep knowledge of the inner workings of the Avengers Mansion anyhow.

It's not a big advantage; but, he'd have a bit of info about the mansion. It won't be huge; but, I don't see Prince having a computer at K'un-lun.

It doesn't come down to first strike, but if Prince gets in the first strike, chances are it's over. That's a pretty big deal, let's not forget it. He has the ability to render Chrome unconscious before Chrome even knows he's there or can defend himself. So First strike is VERY important. And it isn't like he's showing up as a huge green mist cloud. He wouldn't be so stupid as to make himself so small. Tiny green mist speck floating about, thin stream in the shadows (the mist isn't glowing neon you know). Personally, I doubt Chrome would even have time to transmutate anything before he gets knocked out.

The mist doesn't need to glow neon; it simply has to be green. The mansion isn't some dimly lit environment. Every drawing of it makes it appear very well illuminated. The fact is we are told he's a "green mist." To me, that's a big warning sign. "Hmmm...here I am, walking through Avenger's Mansion, and there is a green mist."

As for the tracking... let's remember Prince of Orphans' age and experiences here. He doesn't need to be in the first place, just a place, or maybe not even that. Listening carefully, calmly sitting still waiting for signs to show themselves, wait for Chrome to give himself away, or even come to him, etc. The Prince of Orphans is very old and has been doing what he's doing since before Chrome was born. He knows how to catch some young punk without being seen.

Yes, let's remember Prince's experiences...which, there is not much to go on. He might be old, but we have no indication as to what he's been through before. We have no indication he can "catch some young punk without being seen."

This I'll agree is assumption. But the Acolytes have never been subtle on anything, so it's an assumption I'm willing to make.

When you have a large group of individuals in a battle, subtle will not be a strong suit. Simply put, we don't know how Chrome is in the subtle department; just as we don't know that much about Prince.

You say he can only transform himself, but he transforms the clothing he wears as well. His pants, his robes at times, those are things exterior to him, but he transforms them and reforms them when he's finished.

Still, he wears his cerimonial robes, and that's all we've seen him wear. They are part of his character, and as such transforms with him. There is no indication if he wore anything different...or carried a bic lighter on his person...that it would transform.

I don't get this at all! Does anyone go into a fight with Iceman claiming that since he can transform himself into ice, that he can also transform his body into the metal that's in his blood? No, it doesn't work that way. The Prince of Orphans turns his body and things attached to his body into a Green Mist and back again. That's what he does and has been shown doing. If Chrome transforms him into something else, it's still his body and I would imagine he could still turn into the green mist, freeing himself from that trap. And there's still the point that I'm not even sure Chrome would recognize what Orphan's mist is made of. It's mystical in nature and may not be the same make up as real mist, only comparable to it. So there's a chance Chrome may not even be able to effect Prince.

All we know is Prince can be human and turn into a green mist. There is no indication of anything different. If turned to stone or metal, there is no proof at all that he wouldn't be permantly effected. We know Chrome can transform people this way; we don't know Prince can transform out of this state. We know Chrome can effect the elements...and, if those elements attack him, he could very well expunge them, too, if he has control over them.

The idea behind the argument is the mist can get in Chrome's body and incapacitate him; the argument is flawed, because if Chrome has control of the elements, it stands to reason he could effect the elements that attack him. It might even be conjectured (though unable to prove) that he can sense these elements around him.

Winner = Chrome

 

[Phaedrus45]

Keep checking back to the thread. I want to look at the Iron Fist appearances and X-Men appearances of both characters. With so little shown of both, it would be nice to actually see how well they used their powers, what it looked like, and all that. (Like, I'm dying to see how green is the mist.)

But, that won't be until the weekend. I'm about to leave for Watchmen; and, I have a feeling I won't be that awake to do a lot of debating tomorrow.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Here is a good site that shows the images of Prince in his fights:

http://www.comicvine.com/the-prince-of-orphans/29-46789/

I want to point out an important factor I notice in the pictures: It would appear that the green mist eminates from Prince's body, and his body is still there when using his mist powers. (It is a pretty bright green in all the pictures, too.) You can see the formation of his robes, and the mist is all around his body, able to attack others. Even in the scene where he's attacking HYDRA, you see his body in the far left side of the screen. It makes me wonder if he turns into a full mist, like a vampire. I sure don't see him making himself as small as a vial, as the description of his abilities say on the link site.

These images are pretty significant in showing Prince's abilities.

 

[JewishHobbit]

actually, if you look through the one shot: Orsan Randal and the Green Mist of Death, you'll see a lot of instances where he transforms entirely into mist and back again, including his robes. In fact, that main image shown in that link is only a panel after he was entirely inside a tiny tube the size of a finger. So that shows how small he can go AND proves that he can transform things exterior his own body, including the chemicle compounds of whatever fabric it's made of.

We also saw him come through the bottom crack of a closed door, he was stored inside of a woman's body, through the cracks of a floor.

And very interestingly, in the beginning of that issue the Prince of Orphans is sitting in the middle of the crowd and takes out a guy on stage without anyone even knowing his done it. THAT proves how subtle and and sneaky he can be, at at least that's more than we know about Chrome. The man on stage using some magical doohicky also states the Prince of Orphans as being "Absolute Nothingness shaped like a man".

I think all this can prove the Prince of Orphans doesn't just suround himself in mist but becomes the mist, including things that aren't just his body and has other chemical compounds.

 

[wiegeabo]

Nimrod vs Praxagora

What we have here is a battle between two robotic beings. Both are incredibly strong and durable. Both can fire energy blasts. Both con communicate and control machines.

The difference is that Nimrod was designed to hunt. Its whole purpose for being is to fight and destroy. It also has forcefields, the ability to teleport, to regenerate damage, adapt to situations and attacks, and absorb technology into itself.


This means, that during prep-time, Nimrod can absorb all the systems of the mansion into itself. Being from the future, the technology is primitive, but if there's anything useful about the tech, or any useful information, it'll have it. It can also use it to control the mansion's security to use against Praxagora (or at least counter her attempts to use whatever it doesn't absorb).

Nirmod can deflect Praxagora's direct attacks with its forcefields, and counter with its own. It can also teleport if things start going too bad, or as a tactical advantage in the fight. All the while, learning about its opponent, and adapting to whatever she uses against it.

And if it gets its hands on her, it can start controlling her, or absorbing her tech into itself.


Praxagora is just outclassed in this match. Nimrod will eventually make her technology a part of himself and move on to the next round.


Nimrod wins

 

[Hellstormer]

Deathwatch VS. Green Goblin​

Deatwatch VS. Green Goblin is an interesting fight in how similar these characters are. Both of them are business men with a alter-ego surging within them. I doubt either will be able to fight much info on eachother. This fight will probably start with GG taking to the air and using projectiles, but Deathwatch is a skilled ninja and acrobat and he'll be able to dodge these and eventually fling himself into the air to take down the glider. Once the fight's one terra firma it will turn into a brawl. Deathwatch has the upperhand here given his fighting ability and the fact that he gets stronger as his opponent becomes closer to death. He can also inflict internal injuries without piercing the body (thus GG's suit is unable to protect him). As GG gets weaker DW will get stronger despite his injuries. Eventually DW will go for the killshot to the organs and walk away much stronger.

Winner=Deathwatch​

 

[Phaedrus45]

actually, if you look through the one shot: Orsan Randal and the Green Mist of Death, you'll see a lot of instances where he transforms entirely into mist and back again, including his robes. In fact, that main image shown in that link is only a panel after he was entirely inside a tiny tube the size of a finger. So that shows how small he can go AND proves that he can transform things exterior his own body, including the chemicle compounds of whatever fabric it's made of.

Every instance of when you see Prince is in the same robes, time after time. This is actually an ages old character from back in the day, and I would suppose these are the robes he was wearing when he got his Green Mist powers. So, it would stand to reason why we always see him with those robes, even in his mist form. This does not say other things can change on him, at all. It just says all he can change is his body and the robes he always wears.

We also saw him come through the bottom crack of a closed door, he was stored inside of a woman's body, through the cracks of a floor.

What's interesting is that his mist pretty much comes entirely though the door before attacking the man; it also doesn't show us how the mist got into the woman, just that he took her over before that scene is shown. Most importantly, this issue shows that before Prince attacks, he shows his body and a large amount of mist...AND, that mist is a very bright, almost neon green. It's very evident this mist NEVER changes color.

Plus, look at each attack; he always attacks when in complete mist form; and, even when attacking Orson Randall, he was not fast enough to get him on the roof top. And, when Orson escaped off the roof top, he didn't follow him down. This issue really shows his ineffectiveness against him; and, shows the Chrome would easily see him coming.

And very interestingly, in the beginning of that issue the Prince of Orphans is sitting in the middle of the crowd and takes out a guy on stage without anyone even knowing his done it. THAT proves how subtle and and sneaky he can be, at at least that's more than we know about Chrome. The man on stage using some magical doohicky also states the Prince of Orphans as being "Absolute Nothingness shaped like a man".

This is very misleading; there is a green mist around the guy, and the reason the crowd isn't aware of anything being done, is because the guy tells the crowd, "Be not afraid of the strange and wonderous sights unfolding before your eyes." I can't say for certain that Chrome will not sit around when he sees a green mist coming at him.

I think all this can prove the Prince of Orphans doesn't just suround himself in mist but becomes the mist, including things that aren't just his body and has other chemical compounds.

Everything I've seen proves that he comes in a big, green, almost-neon mist.

*Coming under the door, a green mist envelopes the room before attacking the man's nostrils and mouth.

*Attacking Randall, he comes at him with full spirit and a full thing of mist.

*Coming out of the lady, we do not get to see how he inhabited her body; that's left out of the story.

*Coming out of the vial to attack Randall, Randall can't help but notice a bright, glowing green vial, and knows Prince is in it. He lets him out, and before anything else happens, he comes in full spirit form, surrounded by the mist.

*When attacking him on the roof, he isn't swift enough to capture him, as he comes in spirit form, surrounded by a great mist; and, is unable to follow him as he flee's over the roof top.

Everything shows Chrome will see his attacker before he attacks. Everything shows that he's easily seen, because his mist seems to almost glow, even in the dark.

I do agree that Prince could take out many of the heroes in this contest; but, sadly, he got the bad luck of the draw. Chrome is one power he doesn't want to face, but must. Worst of all, he is unaware of Chrome's powers, and will not realize this. If he did know who he was facing, this first battle might go differently; but, that's a very important factor the voters need to realize.

Winner = Chrome

 

[Phaedrus45]

Another point in my rebuttal, it was mentioned that Chrome isn't that stealthy. I just looked at X-Men issues 1-3, and while we don't see much of him in those short appearances, when we first see him is very significant. The X-Men are fighting Magneto, and without them realizing he's arrived, Chrome takes them all out with a wave of his hands, transforming them to a solid steel. That sounds pretty stealthy to me.

Plus, he has powers, much like Cannonball. He can fly, with the rockets coming from his torso area. If Prince is unable to capture Randall when he's on foot, he'll really be unable if Chrome uses his rocket power.

I will admit I was almost going to write off this fight when I first saw it, not really knowing what kind of character I had; but, the more I look into it, I think Chrome would win it.

Winner = Chrome

 

[Phaedrus45]

Nimrod vs. Praxagora: Opening Debate

Wow! What an awesome opening match that's really on the level of Sentry vs. Ares, if you look at the two characters. It's just Praxagora isn't well known, and Nimrod isn't popular, like Sentry or Ares. Still, this is one for the ages!

First, the bios:

Nimrod:

Nimrod is the most highly advanced form of Sentinel robot. Nimrod can convert his outward appearance to resemble that of an ordinary human being. Nimrod can also reconstruct himself so as to make improvements in his robotic form and internal systems that will make him a more formidable opponent. Even when smashed to pieces, Nimrod can reintegrate the portions of his body to become whole again. Apparently Nimrod's electronic consciousness can somehow exist independently of his physical body, at least temporarily.

Praxagora:

She is powered by an internal fusion core (it is actually a miniature star) located in her chest, providing her with limitless power, which she can discharge through her arms as superheated plasma streams, power enough to cut through most spaceships hulls. This energy also enables flight or the blocking of incoming attacks. As a fatal last resort, she can initiate a catastrophic reactor overload, building up to a powerful explosion of unspecified magnitude. She has transcendental strength.

She shares a telepathic link with other machines.


For those who remember the battles Nimrod had, where he's at a disadvantage is when facing an opponent for the first time. This is truly the case here. Who knows if Praxagora can kill off Nimrod; but, you don't need to kill off a character to win this battle; you just have to incapacitate them for a standard amount of time.

Two things lead me to believe that Praxagora can achieve knocking out Nimrod for a substantial period of time. First, as told above, "she is powered by an internal fusion core (it is actually a miniature star) located in her chest, providing her with limitless power, which she can discharge through her arms as superheated plasma streams, power enough to cut through most spaceships hulls." This is specifically the kind of power you need to tackle Nimrod. Second, as I said, Nimrod will need to "reintegrate the portions of his body to become whole again;" and, as this is not a quick amount of time, Praxagora would have to get the win.

You ask why can't Nimrod take out Praxagora first? Simply put, "this energy also enables flight or the blocking of incoming attacks." Remember, this is a limitless power, and Praxagora is the perfect person to take out Nimrod. The real shock is that I'm sure Praxagora was pretty low on my list of characters; if I knew she was this good, she would have been much, much higher. I definitely got a lot of luck by scoring her.

The most important factor in this match is in one of her most special abilities: She shares a telepathic link with other machines. She will know Nimrod and how to defeat him, because Nimrod is a machine. Praxagora can even link up with the Mansion, making this battle even more difficult for Nimrod. I'd even go so far as to say Praxagora can link with Nimrod and take away his fight; he just has to explain to him that his programing is against Mutants, and as she's not one, there is no reason to have a fight.

It's sad to see Nimrod defeated so easily; but, I think Praxagora does it.

Winner = Praxagora

 

[Phaedrus45]

Nimrod vs. Praxagora Rebuttal:

What we have here is a battle between two robotic beings. Both are incredibly strong and durable. Both can fire energy blasts. Both con communicate and control machines.

The difference is that Nimrod was designed to hunt. Its whole purpose for being is to fight and destroy. It also has forcefields, the ability to teleport, to regenerate damage, adapt to situations and attacks, and absorb technology into itself.

The problem is Nimrod's bio states the following:

Nimrod contains highly advanced computer systems as well as scanning devices that make it possible for him to determine whether a human being is a superhuman or not; if they are, he can determine the nature of their superhuman abilities. Like present day Sentinels, Nimrod can draw upon devices and systems within his robotic body in order to cope with or neutralize an opponent's superhuman power once he has determined the nature of that power.

Praxagora isn't human, and his programming will determine that factor. He is not designed to eliminate machines...he's programmed to eliminate human...SUPERHUMANS.

Plus, as Praxagora has a telepathic link, she'll know Nimrod has a weakness to "elemental attacks such as lightning or extreme cold." The mansion will have such stuff at it's disposal.

This means, that during prep-time, Nimrod can absorb all the systems of the mansion into itself. Being from the future, the technology is primitive, but if there's anything useful about the tech, or any useful information, it'll have it. It can also use it to control the mansion's security to use against Praxagora (or at least counter her attempts to use whatever it doesn't absorb).

This is incorrect. Nimrod cannot absorb all the systems of the mansion, because when Nimrod was last seen, the mansion no longer existed.

As with the mansion security, we might have a stalemate on that level. Who gets control is kind of rendered mute. What Praxagora will be able to do is find the information about the mansion immediately, find information about Nimrod, and know where to get stuff to defeat him. Plus, she'll know that she needs to use the full extent of her power to take him out; and, with her limitless power, that won't be a problem.

Nirmod can deflect Praxagora's direct attacks with its forcefields, and counter with its own. It can also teleport if things start going too bad, or as a tactical advantage in the fight. All the while, learning about its opponent, and adapting to whatever she uses against it.

And if it gets its hands on her, it can start controlling her, or absorbing her tech into itself.


Praxagora is just outclassed in this match. Nimrod will eventually make her technology a part of himself and move on to the next round.

First, I don't think Nimrod's forcefields are up to the level of Praxagora's energy blast, that can decimate the side of a space ship. And, as Praxagora can link with computers, there is no indication that Nimrod is of a higher level than she is.

Praxagora comes from a race of machines; while Nimrod was made by man. His programming is inherently flawed; and that programming tells him to attack "superhumans," not machines. He's faced mutants; and, they've held their own against him, giving themselves time to flee...or they get the one-up in an initial battle, and then Nimrod needs to fix himself, reassess the battle, and strike again. Nimrod doesn't have that luxury with this match.

Winner = Praxagora

 

[Phaedrus45]

double post

 

[JewishHobbit]

Every instance of when you see Prince is in the same robes, time after time. This is actually an ages old character from back in the day, and I would suppose these are the robes he was wearing when he got his Green Mist powers. So, it would stand to reason why we always see him with those robes, even in his mist form. This does not say other things can change on him, at all. It just says all he can change is his body and the robes he always wears.

.
While I see the point of what you're saying here, at this point it's completely assumption. We don't know if those robes were with him when he got his powers so we can't assume they were. So until shown otherwise the robes are still outside material he can transform. same with his pants. And the tatoo on his chest was not received until after he got his powers (as shown in the one shot) so that ink, a differant chemical compount than anything found in the natural human body, shows he can transform other compounds when attached to his body. Thus, in my opinion, he should still be able to transform whatever Chrome turns him into.

What's interesting is that his mist pretty much comes entirely though the door before attacking the man; it also doesn't show us how the mist got into the woman, just that he took her over before that scene is shown. Most importantly, this issue shows that before Prince attacks, he shows his body and a large amount of mist...AND, that mist is a very bright, almost neon green. It's very evident this mist NEVER changes color.

Thing is... he was aware of his foes there. He knew Orson Randall. Based on Orson's reaction they've met before. He has no clue who Chrome is or what abilities he has. I would assume he'd be a bit more cautious, but I"ll let the voters decide on that one as it can't be proven one way or the other.

Plus, look at each attack; he always attacks when in complete mist form; and, even when attacking Orson Randall, he was not fast enough to get him on the roof top. And, when Orson escaped off the roof top, he didn't follow him down. This issue really shows his ineffectiveness against him; and, shows the Chrome would easily see him coming.

Again, I think he'd be more subtle being that he doesn't know Chrome. And while he wasn't shown to be very quick in that one shot flash back, everything since then has shown him to be amazingly fast. If you just look at that issue when he's facing off against Davos, he's insanely fast and just beats the tar out of the guy. I really don't think speed is a question with the Prince of Orphans.

This is very misleading; there is a green mist around the guy, and the reason the crowd isn't aware of anything being done, is because the guy tells the crowd, "Be not afraid of the strange and wonderous sights unfolding before your eyes." I can't say for certain that Chrome will not sit around when he sees a green mist coming at him.

If you read later when the guy wakes up in Orson's crowd, all of them say they didn't see the guy and have no idea what he's talking about. So that tells me he was very subtle and even the people familiar and friendly with the magician didn't know the guys was there or why the man fainted.

Everything I've seen proves that he comes in a big, green, almost-neon mist.

Oh, there's no question his mist is bright... but it's a question of subtlety on whether or not Orphans can get the first strike in. And in that same magician scene. He's in the crowd, then takes out the magician and no one saw how it happened? You see some mist around the stage but Orphans was sitting right in the center of the crowed. You don't think if he went all mist and took the guy out while sittign in the center of the crowd... someone wouldn't notice? He was massively subtle there, took out the man on stage, while sitting in the center of a crowd, using his mist, and no one knows he did it or even how it happened. THAT shows his subtley right there. Even if the magician told people not to worry about what they see, I think a glowing green man in their midsts would freak them out a bit before the Magician is rendered unconscious. This means Orphans was subtle about it, and he can use that to take out Chrome easily without allowing Chrome to even use his powers to attempt to transform him into something else.

Everything shows Chrome will see his attacker before he attacks. Everything shows that he's easily seen, because his mist seems to almost glow, even in the dark.

See previous statement

Another point in my rebuttal, it was mentioned that Chrome isn't that stealthy. I just looked at X-Men issues 1-3, and while we don't see much of him in those short appearances, when we first see him is very significant. The X-Men are fighting Magneto, and without them realizing he's arrived, Chrome takes them all out with a wave of his hands, transforming them to a solid steel. That sounds pretty stealthy to me.

I wouldn't say stealthy... I'd say quick. And I'm not questioning Chrome's quickness at all. They may not have seen him but that could have something to do with the very powerful and frightening Magneto right in front of them.

Plus, he has powers, much like Cannonball. He can fly, with the rockets coming from his torso area. If Prince is unable to capture Randall when he's on foot, he'll really be unable if Chrome uses his rocket power.

However, they are in an enclosed location in side the mansion. It won't be as easy for Chrome to fly and manuever. If anything, I think the location puts him at a disadvantage in reguards to his flying.



Now... there's a few points here that can be debated still, but I think we're really just debating the same things over and over. We've both looked over the comics and make our cases. I think for the better of the match and the voters who have to read all this mess... we should try to wrap it up. Final posts?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Yes, most of this would just be rehashing the same points; I'll just rebutt a couple things.

*Again, I point out the magician told the crowd not to be worried about the special effects they were seeing. Of course the crowd wouldn't notice the weird guy emitting those things, as the focus is on the Magician, not the people around them. That quote says it all to the crowd; of course they'd think it was all part of the act. This is not about being subtle; this is about a crowd of people, all with their eyes focused on a show, not looking at what's around them.

*As for room to manuever, he's shown in an enclosed place in one of the comics, bursting forth with the other acolytes. And, depending where you are in the mansion, it's within reason that he could easily flee. (We know in real life this shouldn't work; but, in comics, these people with flight powers seem to be able to do it. Like I said, Chrome is shown doing this indoors.)


I wish you luck, JH. It's been a good debate! Makes me glad you wanted to start it up again.