Cyclops Returns(Old Thread Closed)

[taintedFB]

That's assuming the scene ends with Scott killing her. He may be able to talk her back into control of her powers... And Logan's love was never returned so his words could not stop her. But she truly loved Scott and he was the one person that could have saved her. Just look at her reaction each time Scott is mentioned (the lab, at her house)

Even in the movie, it appears Scott's death is accidental while in the final battle she is intentionally trying to kill Logan...

By the way, If she can deconstruct matter on a molecular level, Logan would have been atomized like the rest... (just FOX making Logan more than he is, again)

Also, if she did die again, I think Scott's reaction should be different this time. I think he would throw himself into his work. Really take over the school and be less emotional (almost cold, cut-off, at least until Emma arrives) and be focused on the school and the mission. He'd be a no nonsense stoic leader.

 

[X-Maniac]

That's assuming the scene ends with Scott killing her. He may be able to talk her back into control of her powers... And Logan's love was never returned so his words could not stop her. But she truly loved Scott and he was the one person that could have saved her. Just look at her reaction each time Scott is mentioned (the lab, at her house)

Even in the movie, it appears Scott's death is accidental while in the final battle she is intentionally trying to kill Logan...

By the way, If she can deconstruct matter on a molecular level, Logan would have been atomized like the rest... (just FOX making Logan more than he is, again)

Also, if she did die again, I think Scott's reaction should be different this time. I think he would throw himself into his work. Really take over the school and be less emotional (almost cold, cut-off, at least until Emma arrives) and be focused on the school and the mission. He'd be a no nonsense stoic leader.

You are close to being delusional here!

As Dark Phoenix, Jean has to do something terrible. In the comics, she destroyed billions of aliens on a planet by consuming their sun and she also attacked and defeated the X-Men twice (once before flying into space, once when coming back). The movies wouldn't be able to repeat all that, but nonetheless she has to do something evil, terrible, awful (in X3 she killed Cyclops, Xavier, hundreds of soldiers, Brotherhood members). After that, or whatever she was shown doing, could she simply be talked down into being normal again and go skipping back to the mansion!? The whole point of the story is sacrifice. She can't just have a quick hissy fit, harm no-one and then go and live happily ever after. And she can't harm lots of people without any repercussions. I don't know which version of the story you are reading! One that's inside your fantasy, I think!

This is where you lose credibility, because it seems you want to see your favourite characters alive and happy, regardless of logic. And that's not a good thing.

As for what we saw in the movie, it was Jean who killed Scott because she tried to control the full powers she had. It was an accident. And at the same time, tapping into all that power awakened the personality that went with it. After that, the dark personality was there, trying to regain control.

Jean killed Cyclops, accidentally. Phoenix killed Xavier, deliberately, because he tried to cage the Phoenix again. Phoenix was toying with Wolverine - at that point he hadn't done anything to cage her, he was daring to approach her. His unexpected honest emotion stunned Phoenix and allowed Jean to regain control for a moment. If he'd gone there roaring and stabbing, he'd have been destroyed. I don't regard his healing powers as any more significant then when he instantly recovered from Deathstrike repeatedly slicing into his vital organs in X2. In X2, his vital organs were stabbed over and over and still he kept going; so in X3 his fast recovery from surface tissue damage seems pretty feasible.

 

[X-Maniac]

Logan tried talking Jean down before stabbing her (despite her being Psychic)

Why is it assumed Scott would run in there Blasting away?

The scenario is different the stakes are higher and the time setting in story in at the end. I disagree IMO Scott facing Jean wouldn't have been a repeat of X2.

And if it was what does it matter? If a story is well told who cares if it's premise is similar to a past one.

Of course that's just how I Feel.

Well, it would be a bit of a repeat, but how would you like to see the story end then? We've had all sorts of silly suggestions on here. I've yet to hear a really good alternative version of events for the movie-verse.

Personally, I think a nice final scene would have been Scott in a bar (with amnesia, and no eye blasts) all scruffy and unshaven, and being spoken to at the bar by someone (Madeleine Pryor. Not a Phoenix clone though.)

Sorta like:

Woman (pointing at Scott's line of whisky shots on the bar): 'It must have been bad, whatever it was.

Scott: 'I can't exactly remember, that's the problem.' (then, with irony and shrugged shoulders).'Just the usual: grief, love, pain, darkness. Then I woke up miles from anywhere.'

He looks at the woman. She smiles sympathetically.

Scott: 'You kinda remind me of someone, someone i think I once knew.'

She smiles again, mildly amused.

Woman: 'I'm Madeleine'

Scott: 'Scott. So what's your story?'

Madeleine 'Do you have about 1,000 years to listen? Come on, let's forget our darkness, I think we both deserve some light.'

She grabs his arm and they walk out of the bar into the blindling glare of daylight.

 

[taintedFB]

However Phoenix's powers at full force would have broken down the adamantium as well. IF you watch the scene it looks like she's trying to kill him and can't.

That bugged me.

And I was just thinking outloud about the whole happy ending thing.

I agree that Dark Phoenix did have to die, though it would have been a much more powerful and emotional scene with Cyclops than it was with Logan...

 

[UraniaChang]

We have three X-movies with Wolverine being freaking EVERYWHERE and you're telling me that it will be a repeat of X2 if Cyclops faces Phoenix again?

This is where you lose credibility, because it seems you want to see your favourite characters alive and happy, regardless of logic. And that's not a good thing.

You can save these words for Wolverine fans, thank you.

And for someone who thinks X3 is a good movie saying something about logic just seems pretty ironic and hypocritical imo.

Cyclops has never been seen really 'dead' in X3, that's the logic here.

 

[X-Maniac]

We have three X-movies with Wolverine being freaking EVERYWHERE and you're telling me that it will be a repeat of X2 if Cyclops faces Phoenix again?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Yes, Wolverine dominated the movies too much, but - right or wrong - they decided they needed a central character around whom most of the story revolves. Some reviews even called for such a character. For instance, the review of X2 on Box Office Mojo (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/reviews/?id=141&p=.htm) says: "It needs to mythologize the story of the mutants and focus on one character (Wolverine, Jean Grey, Professor X) and push everyone else into the background. In a weekly TV program large casts can be more deftly handled and story lines developed over time. In a two-hour movie, that's almost impossible to do, particularly if the emphasis is action."

You can save these words for Wolverine fans, thank you.

And for someone who thinks X3 is a good movie saying something about logic just seems pretty ironic and hypocritical imo.

Cyclops has never been seen really 'dead' in X3, that's the logic here.

Whether X3 is a 'good movie' is open to great debate. And it has been greatly debated. All I can tell you is that I find it watchable with a dynamic energy not before seen in the franchise, yet flawed and stylistically different from the previous two. It certainly was not the perfect follow-up to X2, but since the director and writers of X2 left without giving us their intended follow-up, we were always going to get someone else's vision of the end of the story. I shouldn't have to be spelling this out to you after all this time.

As for Cyclops being dead, well he seemed to be. Even Xavier thought he was. But I notice you conveniently ignore my other post in which I even wrote a final scene featuring Cyclops. Obviously you skipped right by that just so you could instead be confrontational and accusatory.

 

[UraniaChang]

For instance, the review of X2 on Box Office Mojo (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/reviews/?id=141&p=.htm) says: "It needs to mythologize the story of the mutants and focus on one character (Wolverine, Jean Grey, Professor X) and push everyone else into the background."

Focus on one character and they picked the one that shouldn't have any part in Phoenix story, a newcomer.

As for Cyclops being dead, well he seemed to be. Even Xavier thought he was. But I notice you conveniently ignore my other post in which I even wrote a final scene featuring Cyclops. Obviously you skipped right by that just so you could instead be confrontational and accusatory.

I haven't read that post of yours when I posted mine, but then, it's still strange that Scott will just go find a bar to sit there nursing a beer and let a woman drag him somewhere while being unable to recall anything of his life or what happened to him.

 

[FaT_tONle]

All it would have taken was Cyclops spear heading the final battle and fans would have been cheering the movie to no end... only a select few would still be picky about the Pheonix buchery... but that's all it would have taken and you all know it.

 

[X-Maniac]

I haven't read that post of yours when I posted mine, but then, it's still strange that Scott will just go find a bar to sit there nursing a beer and let a woman drag him somewhere while being unable to recall anything of his life or what happened to him.

Well, my thoughts were that he survives Jean's power surge, wakes up in the forest near the lake with no memory (aside from odd images), and ends up in a small town not far away, dazed, confused, having a drink and trying to figure out who he is and what to do next. The woman just happens to be there, she has her own sad story, she is drawn to him because she can sense he is as 'lost' as she is. He agrees to go with her for the hell of it, he may as well have some company in his personal turmoil, not because she is dragging him somewhere for a wild humping session. She's just a kindred spirit in that moment, someone else to share his woes with.

 

[taintedFB]

Or maybe it's Emma and she knows exactly who he is and what he's been through. We don't even have to reveal it's her. She could just be blonde, wearing white....

It feels like today is a really slow day on the boards...

 

[Angamb]

I liked your idea of that scene, Xmaniac.

Apart from it, can't wait to see interaction between Emma and Scott.

It will be amazing. Fresh air to the Scott character.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

All it would have taken was Cyclops spear heading the final battle and fans would have been cheering the movie to no end... only a select few would still be picky about the Pheonix buchery... but that's all it would have taken and you all know it.

I agree with this a lot. Even with how bad X3 was (and it was, whether you liked it or not, a bad, goofy, poorly made movie), I do think that if Cyke had returned during the final battle and led the X-Men (who were failing under Wolvie's leadership) to victory with awesome commands, tactics, and fancy teamwork scenarios, the fans would have been in awe. Wolvie being a bad leader and Cyke taking the reins would have been a great throwback to Cyke being a bad leader and Wolvie taking the reins in the beginning of hte film. It also would have FINALLY shown Cyclops' true power... which we never saw once. It's his leadership and dedication to the dream that's more powerful than any other X-Men. We never see this once during the Hugh and Halle Show.

 

[X-Maniac]

I agree with this a lot. Even with how bad X3 was (and it was, whether you liked it or not, a bad, goofy, poorly made movie)

You mean, whether YOU liked it or not. There is a difference.

Please don't start stating opinion as though it were fact.

I do think that if Cyke had returned during the final battle and led the X-Men (who were failing under Wolvie's leadership) to victory with awesome commands, tactics, and fancy teamwork scenarios, the fans would have been in awe. Wolvie being a bad leader and Cyke taking the reins would have been a great throwback to Cyke being a bad leader and Wolvie taking the reins in the beginning of hte film. It also would have FINALLY shown Cyclops' true power... which we never saw once. It's his leadership and dedication to the dream that's more powerful than any other X-Men. We never see this once during the Hugh and Halle Show.

So, what you are essentially saying is that the reason some people hate the movie and have spent a year or more picking apart irrelevant details is because Cyclops died.

Cyclops' death has nothing to do with the 'quality' of the movie. It's a deviation from the source... but so were X1 and X2... so the movie cannot be judged solely on the death of one character... a character who was absent for most of X2 and whose screentime was affected by the politics/availability of the actor going to a rival moviemaker.

The death of Cyclops cannot be held up as a reason that the movie is 'bad.'

The fact that if it hadn't happened fans wouldn't be going on about how Magneto moved and suspended the bridge means that embittered fans have an agenda to knock down the movie and try to prove it's bad. That is, of course, ridiculous.

Saying 'I hate the movie because Cyclops died' is one thing (and even then there has to be some understanding of the circumstances behind the death), but it's wholly incorrect to say 'The movie is a bad movie because Cyclops died.' That is bullcrap of the crappiest kind and you need that to be pointed out to you.

 

[taintedFB]

Everything is a matter of opinion including your opinion that "The movie is a bad movie because Cyclops died.' That is bullcrap of the crappiest kind"

My biggest problem with the movie is that Cyclops died. And that set off a chain reaction throughout the rest of the movie. The Phoenix/ Dark Phoenix saga has always been about Scott and Jean. If he'd died in the final battle, I wouldn't have been as upset.

But because Scott died early, Logan was forced into a role and a character that was out of character for him. Storm became a foil for Logan's emotional state. Because Logan's love is unrequited it did not leave the emotional impact that was intended in the final confrontation. The fact that nobody mourns Cyclops and that he is only mentioned a few times in passing is disrespectful to a key player in this plot and in the X-Men world.

Marsden's scheduling had very little to do with this, since this was his planned fate all along. To force Logan into a leading man position, when he is supposed to be the rebel. How can you be the rebel when you're the leader?

Because of placing characters in roles that are not theirs, we are served up unrealistic and campy dialogue, often poorly delivered because it is out of place.

Ultimately, Scott's survival would have resulted in a better movie overall with much more of an emotional impact. His scene at Alkali Lake was more emotional than Logan killing Jean!

And that is a valid opinion that I believe is shared by many.

 

[X-Maniac]

Because of placing characters in roles that are not theirs, we are served up unrealistic and campy dialogue, often poorly delivered because it is out of place.

The intention was obviously to develop characters by forcing them to make choices and take on other responsibilities, rather than remaining in the same positions they were in at the start of X1. It's known as character development. Things had to change by the end of the movie, or there would be no point to the movie.

You have to look at the functions of a movieworld that cannot fully represent all the ups, downs and unchanging fixtures of 40 years of comics, but which has to exist in moviemaking/screenwriting terms. There have been just three movies, the Phoenix story was a subtle subplot in X2 as was Magneto's war, so there was a lot to bring to fruition in X3. The Phoenix Saga has never really been about Scott AND Jean, it's been about Jean and her private turmoils and corruption to darkness. When Phoenix attacked the X-Men and flew into space, she had no thought for Scott at all - she was on her own personal journey.

From a comicbook accuracy point of view, events and characters have played out very differently in all three movies, with the third movie taking the biggest risks (character deaths). But you have to view the movies as movies and not just as comicbook adaptations, because the source material is so complicated and long-running and cannot ever be shoehorned into a film. Characters like Magneto have lived and died and been depowered in the comics and cartoons, and many mutants were depowered by Scarlet Witch during the comcibook M-Day saga (the movie novelisation also used the name M-Day for the Alcatraz incident in which many mutants were cured or killed). The cure was, in the comics, developed by an alien called Ord - the movie obviously was going to change that, and did so, for the better.

I agree it was a misjudgement to kill off Cyclops, or cure Rogue, from the point of view of respecting the comics and pleasing fans. But that is different from the movie being 'bad'. Movie Wolverine and movie Jean did have tremendous chemistry from the beginning, when she was stroking his chest in the lab in X1; movie Rogue asked about being cured in an extended/deleted scene for X1. The movie characters are very different. You have to follow the behaviour of the movie arcs, not the comicbook ones.

Your personal anger over Cyclops dying does not mean it is a fact that the movie is bad. My personal annoyance over other things in the movie does not make the movie 'bad.'

 

[taintedFB]

Honestly, aside from Cyke's death, I thought the dialogue was very poorly written and some of the actor deliveries very badly directed. Specifically from Halle and Hugh, who both gave better performances in the previous films.

I'm all for character development, but complete personality changes including the way a character talks is not character development, it's completely changing the portrayal.

I even had issue with the DP as I felt the movie as a whole LOOKS dates and grainy compared to the sleeker photography of the previous installments...

Still, I like the movie and own it. But to me all the emotional investment went out the door with Scott's death and everyone's disregard for it.

Even if Scott's death HAD to happen that way, it should have made an impact on everyone. Instead, we have Xavier handing the school over to Storm before Scott even leaves the mansion! And that entire scene had horrible dialogue and was not convincing...

Marsden's and Janssen's performance at the lake were by far the most heartfelt. And again, the writers were stumped and ended up giving them very little dialogue.

At the end of the day, X3 had the best plot and story but the worst screenplay and dialogue and that is what makes it so frustrating...

 

[X-Maniac]

Honestly, aside from Cyke's death, I thought the dialogue was very poorly written and some of the actor deliveries very badly directed. Specifically from Halle and Hugh, who both gave better performances in the previous films.

I'm all for character development, but complete personality changes including the way a character talks is not character development, it's completely changing the portrayal.

I even had issue with the DP as I felt the movie as a whole LOOKS dates and grainy compared to the sleeker photography of the previous installments...

Still, I like the movie and own it. But to me all the emotional investment went out the door with Scott's death and everyone's disregard for it.

Even if Scott's death HAD to happen that way, it should have made an impact on everyone. Instead, we have Xavier handing the school over to Storm before Scott even leaves the mansion! And that entire scene had horrible dialogue and was not convincing...

Marsden's and Janssen's performance at the lake were by far the most heartfelt. And again, the writers were stumped and ended up giving them very little dialogue.

At the end of the day, X3 had the best plot and story but the worst screenplay and dialogue and that is what makes it so frustrating...

I agree with a lot of that. Hugh and Halle were more convincing in the previous movies, though I'm not sure of the writing for Storm in Singer's movies. She seemed to be emotionally disturbed but it was never explained what caused that, in the previous movies. At least in X3, we did find out why she was in turmoil on the balcony and the talk of 'why are we still hiding' did nicely connect with what she said to Kurt on the jet in X2.

As for the cinematography, it was very different. Didn't like the bright lighting (or rippling music) of the opening scene, which very much set it apart from the previous movies and didn't create enough mood. The rest of the movie seemed fine from a filming point of view, although it failed to evoke atmosphere at times. The storyboard sequence for Magneto rallying the army (with Hitler-style banners and flames) looked more atmospheric and dark than what we got in the movie.

And as for Scott's death - well, he left the mansion, having been haunted by Jean/Phoenix, so he was already out of the main picture. We weren't shown the details, and there was no room for a whole movie of him slowly being less and less involved. What Xavier said to Storm in the corridor was to show to us that he had some psychic awareness of what was going to happen - he obvously had made plans to transfer his mind and probably sensed what would happen. At the end of X2 he thought everything would be all right, but in X3 he sensed that things had changed and that dark times were ahead.

The movie had a lot to live up to, and a lot to achieve, and it certainly didn't achieve everything. It added too many things in, so some things were dealt with too briefly... but still I find it is better to discuss what we can interpret from the movies to enrich the experience, rather than just whining.

 

[taintedFB]

Fine. I'll focus on the positive, because overall, it's still a fun movie. I don't know who started this year-old discussion again in the first place...

I thought Scott and Jean's scene was great. I really enjoyed Magneto's scenes with Jean, and Famke was awesome. Most of the effects were good, though Phoenix's hovering was poorly done. Sometimes green screen is the way to go. Her levitating was an obvious harness, mostly because of Famke's pose/position.

The action and pacing were good. It's never boring. The scene with Magneto and Mystique was excellent. Xavier's showdown with Phoenix in the house was phenomenal.

Overall, a good movie. Lots of fun. It never reaches its potential but its still entertaining...

I simply don't understand why FOX opted to put a big fat PERIOD at the end. This franchise unlike many others could go on for several movies, sometimes not all the characters have to be present. (A movie without storm, for example, but always keeping the character alive, mentioned, etc... for future returns or cameos).

I know the movies were getting expensive, but they were all profitable, so it seemed unnecessary to end the team movies in favor of spinoffs. Heck, you could have the original cast back for cameos, but focus on new characters....

A great example of this is the Harry Potter Movies. They introduce the Emma Thompson character in the third movie, she doesn't appear in the fourth, but returns in the fifth for a small brief scene. It keeps the world alive.... people come and go. That is the nature of life...

Anyway, I'm done talking about this movie.... I'm just focusing on the future and manips and other fun stuff....

Does anyone know if the animated series will ever be released in DVD season/ box sets?

 

[BMM]

Does anyone know if the animated series will ever be released in DVD season/ box sets?

Not soon enough...

 

[UraniaChang]

Does anyone know if the animated series will ever be released in DVD season/ box sets?

Animated series?

 

[taintedFB]

Have you never seen the animated series in the early 90s?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MWPHT2McGrw

 

[gambitfire]

Well, it would be a bit of a repeat, but how would you like to see the story end then? We've had all sorts of silly suggestions on here. I've yet to hear a really good alternative version of events for the movie-verse.

Personally, I think a nice final scene would have been Scott in a bar (with amnesia, and no eye blasts) all scruffy and unshaven, and being spoken to at the bar by someone (Madeleine Pryor. Not a Phoenix clone though.)

Sorta like:

Woman (pointing at Scott's line of whisky shots on the bar): 'It must have been bad, whatever it was.

Scott: 'I can't exactly remember, that's the problem.' (then, with irony and shrugged shoulders).'Just the usual: grief, love, pain, darkness. Then I woke up miles from anywhere.'

He looks at the woman. She smiles sympathetically.

Scott: 'You kinda remind me of someone, someone i think I once knew.'

She smiles again, mildly amused.

Woman: 'I'm Madeleine'

Scott: 'Scott. So what's your story?'

Madeleine 'Do you have about 1,000 years to listen? Come on, let's forget our darkness, I think we both deserve some light.'

She grabs his arm and they walk out of the bar into the blindling glare of daylight.

Well If it had to end with an extended feature of Scott I like my idea better where Jean tells him to wake up and he awakens in a lab with a blonde woman standing over him who ends up beeing Emma. I wrote the dialogue for that along time ago I don't know where it is anymore.

How I would of preffered it ending would of been Scott appearing on the Island and taking out alteast one brotherhood member. Then approaching Jean and trying to talk some sense in to her, Jean finally comes through and tells Scott to shoot her which he cannot bring himself to do so, She finally realizes what she must do and makes the ultimate Sacrifice and Kills herself... OMG i never realized how LIKE THE SOURCE THAT SOUNDS!!

 

[taintedFB]

IT would have been cool if she demolecularized herself.

But not if Logan talks her back. It would have worked great if it was her and Scott. She regains some control, then telekinetically shoves him away and atomizes herself.

 

[gambitfire]

It could of been like the scene in SM3 where Sandman fades away.

I really liked that scene.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Fine. I'll focus on the positive, because overall, it's still a fun movie. I don't know who started this year-old discussion again in the first place...

I thought Scott and Jean's scene was great. I really enjoyed Magneto's scenes with Jean, and Famke was awesome. Most of the effects were good, though Phoenix's hovering was poorly done. Sometimes green screen is the way to go. Her levitating was an obvious harness, mostly because of Famke's pose/position.

The action and pacing were good. It's never boring. The scene with Magneto and Mystique was excellent. Xavier's showdown with Phoenix in the house was phenomenal.

Overall, a good movie. Lots of fun. It never reaches its potential but its still entertaining...

I simply don't understand why FOX opted to put a big fat PERIOD at the end. This franchise unlike many others could go on for several movies, sometimes not all the characters have to be present. (A movie without storm, for example, but always keeping the character alive, mentioned, etc... for future returns or cameos).

I know the movies were getting expensive, but they were all profitable, so it seemed unnecessary to end the team movies in favor of spinoffs. Heck, you could have the original cast back for cameos, but focus on new characters....

A great example of this is the Harry Potter Movies. They introduce the Emma Thompson character in the third movie, she doesn't appear in the fourth, but returns in the fifth for a small brief scene. It keeps the world alive.... people come and go. That is the nature of life...

Anyway, I'm done talking about this movie.... I'm just focusing on the future and manips and other fun stuff....

Does anyone know if the animated series will ever be released in DVD season/ box sets?

I disagree.

I dunno who the Emma Thompson character is in Harry Potter 3, but surely she is not a core character.

Introducing a secondary character, removing them, and bringing them back, is not the same as removing an established, core character. Take Ron or Hermione out of the picture, and see if it's the same!

Sme goes for the X-Men. In the movies, certain characters were established as the central, core characters; Cyclops, Jean, Wolverine, Storm, Xavier... you really can't have the X-Men in the movies without them, because THEY ARE the X-Men in the movie verse. In the comics, it might work out sometimes, but that's because the comics go on for 40+ years, and are already introducing new characters anyways, and sometimes you need to shake things up a bit.

Imagine Star Trek without Scottie or Spock. Harry Potter without Ron or Hermione. Matrix without Trinity or Morpheus.

Yes, I agree that Fox made the wrong decision to put the period at the end of the franchise. There was no reason why this had to be the last one. But by killing off Cyclops, Jean Grey, and Xavier, and by curing Rogue, Magneto, and Mystique, you really can't continue now because the -central core characters- have been killed off.

You can't just switch up who your core characters are in a movie series. It's bad form. You can't just say "well Storm and Wolverine had their time, so they don't need to be there, so Iceman and Kitty can get their time"

NO! Iceman and Kitty are secondary characters. They aren't the central core of who these movies have been about, and you can't just make it about them NOW just because Storm and Wolverine have had their time. That is absolutley HORRIBLE movie making. These movies aren't a god damned soap opera.