David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by Thread Manager, Oct 24, 2013.

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  1. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Just curious, what your figure is on the death count in avengers and TDKR?
     
    #76
  2. Boom

    Boom I got nothin'

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    The former, tens of thousands.

    TDKR? Couple thousand, at most.
     
    #77
  3. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    As I figured.
     
    #78
  4. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    Both of these posts made me smile. :woot:

    I didn't watch the event, but I'm pretty sure Snyder pulled the number out of his ass. I doubt he has the time to sit around and really wonder how many people actually died during the invasion. Even if he did...why would he? Most people give no ****s about how many people died, so I don't see why he would.

    That will never make sense to me.
     
    #79
  5. TheFlamingCoco

    TheFlamingCoco Well-Known Member

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    People didn't gripe about the Transformers/Avengers/Hulk body counts. It only matters when Superman's involved :/
     
    #80
  6. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    There were actuarial analyses about the body counts in Avengers and at least one of the Transformers movies.

    Hulk caused damage in the first movie and that wasn't glossed over, that was part of the point of that movie, but people didn't get that movie, so too bad.
     
    #81
  7. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    Maybe people think Superman, as the greatest, most radiant, pure, archetypal essence of superhero should be held to a higher standard.

    Maybe, anyway.
     
    #82
  8. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    The tone of those films aren't the same as MOS'. Of course they didn't get the same response/criticism.
     
    #83
  9. slumcat

    slumcat Well-Known Member

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    Maybe because no film has shown so much destruction in an urban landscape.

    I think one building fell in Transformers? (I haven't seen it) and I remember one building fell in Avengers and others were harmed.

    But in MOS hundreds of buildings were smashed and all. So the damage would have been higher. Maybe that is why so many people have commented upon it.

    Some damage control experts or firm estimated that Avengers damage would cost 160 billion dollars.

    And MOS damage could cost 3 trillion dollars!!!
     
    #84
  10. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    Basically, it comes down to Zach Snyder being a better director, ironicaly. He made the destruction look more realistic. That's why people are angry. He did such a good job that he made people care.
     
    #85
  11. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    That's how i see it too. Neither Whedon or Bay is better than Snyder, directing wise. Whedon is a better storyteller for sure but in terms of directing, Zack beats both of them.
     
    #86
  12. Llama_Shepherd

    Llama_Shepherd Well-Known Member

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    In terms of large scale destruction, yes, he beats Whedon and is pretty even with Bay. Overall direction Whedon>Snyder>Bay.
     
    #87
  13. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    You're kidding right:huh:
    [YT]5j8nuUVByrU[/YT]
    For starters.
     
    #88
  14. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Unlike Whedon, Bay can actually sell a movie to the masses consistently without a script or a marketing crossover event selling it.
    For better or worse.
     
    #89
  15. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    Yes because the market needs mindless action films with no plot so they can consume tons of pop corn and laugh hysterically to racist jokes but when you throw even the slight touch of brains it becomes pretentious. :cmad:
     
    #90
  16. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    Or a hit. :o
     
    #91
  17. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    Joss Whedon has not produced many movie hits because his background is in television. Most of his career has been on TV, where he has a distinguished career from Buffy and Angel, Buffy often being ranked as one of the best shows ever made.

    He's a good writer-director, and between Buffy, Angel, and Avengers, he's had a decent career. He also contributed to the first Toy Story script (I'm not sure who did what), and a few other works.
     
    #92
  18. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    At first I thought you were talking about the Avengers, till you pointed out the "racist" jokes.
     
    #93
  19. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    Again, he is a great storyteller and script doctor but directing wise he is just good. Honestly i think he did a great job in the Avengers but that's because he gets the characters. Much ado about nothing was solid but nothing spectacualar, directing wise. Snyder is one the most underrated directors in my opinion.
     
    #94
  20. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    Of course not. Mindless in the Avengers is a positive. We got all the character developement we needed from the solo flicks and the Avengers was the Destroy All Monsters of the series. Just action, one liners and colourful imagery. It was brilliant, shallow but it didn't need depth while the Transformers fails at everything + its racist.
     
    #95
  21. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    If you want to call Transformers racist you can, but let's not pretend that the Avengers doesn't tap into the matrix of oppression.

    Tony Stark -- The leader, white male in 50s and good at everything;
    Bruce Banner -- White male, 40s or 50s
    Thor -- White male, might be 1000 years old, looks like he is 28.
    Steve Rogers -- white male, looks like he is 30, really he's ~92 years old.
    Hawkguy -- white male, looks like he is in his 30s
    Natasha Romanov -- white *female*, probably early 30s

    This is a cast of white heroes that the audience can get behind, the Avengers cast in costumes could be argued to look like a ku klux klan halloween party. Transformers at least had some black cast members who contributed, certainly more than Nick Fury who is there to contribute as a motivational speaker. Further, not only is the cast white, but it's not even a diverse white: it's specifically a northern european white.

    Contrast this to Man of Steel, which had black actors for General Swanwick and Perry White, and of their white actors, not all were northern European exraction (e.g. Chris Meloni, Ayelet Zurer, Alessandro Juliani, Antje Traue). If race is an issue you genuinely care about, then Avengers is far behind Man of Steel, Pacific Rim, or Man of Steel.

    I leave aside some of the offensive jokes in the Avengers, which mock adopted people, Germans, etc. I also leave aside the military porn at the start, where Shield mocks some incompetent eastern European mobsters in a show of American military (we have F-18s on your ass!!!) meant to stroke the audience's ego about the distribution of power in the world.
     
    #96
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  22. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    I see your point and i agree but still the Avengers didn't offend any minority, at least not directly. They made fun of the general idea of things. It is no lie that Americans don't like Europeans and that the Germans were *******s during WW2 (some folks will tell you they still are) but TA didn't have Jar Jar Binks style of racism.

    I totally agree with MoS, it was relatable towards everyone.
     
    #97
  23. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    When Captain America sees Loki working the crowd in Berlin, he says "the last time I saw a lunatic working a crowd of Germans, it didn't end well".

    It's a racist joke, as it attributes the rise of Hitler to Germans being Germans, as opposed to the historical and material conditions present in that part of the world at the time. It's also ignorant though, and you know what, that's what a lot of people believe.

    If Loki had been working up a crowd in Los Angeles, and Tony Stark had made a comment about the Rodney King riots, audiences would have laughed just as hard (possibly even harder), and the joke would have been just as dumb and just as problematic.

    There is also the continuity error that Hitler was a bit player in Captain America's first movie. If you saw the movie, the Red Skull and Hydra clearly became a lot more powerful than Hitler, and therefore he should not be associating Germany with Hitler.
     
    #98
  24. NosfeRomas

    NosfeRomas Well-Known Member

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    I get it but probably nobody picked on that. It's funny because if you think about it, it is offensive. I guess everyone was so overwhelmed by the fact that it was the first time we saw all these guys together because really this is the first time i've seen somebody accuse TA for racism. Interesting, very interesting.
     
    #99
  25. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    I think you guys might be reading a bit too much into things...
     
    #100
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