Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[hellified]

I'm not quoting that long post but re-read what I wrote. No where did I say blacks were predisposed to be murderers. Anyone can be a murderer. I posed the question as to why homicide rates are higher in the black community, which you didn't answer, and myself proposed crime is related to poverty. However, murder is related to morality which is taught and culturally influenced (aside from mental disorders) and the only way to combat that is through education. Murderers are morally bankrupt...not any certain race.

The question implies that also your explanation of culturally influenced implies it as well...whose culture? American culture or black culture?

I don't have to speak for the whole group of blacks as to why murder rates are higher...as far as I'm concerned crime is crime across the board and of the 40 MILLION or so blacks in America the vast majority do not commit crimes and therefore shouldn't have to answer for those who do.

When you raise the statistics argument and ask the question: When adjusted proportionally for population, blackS are 5x more likely than whites to commit homicide, regardless of the race of the victim. How do you explain that?

You are implying that the group is responsible and those stats are in fact reflective of the group as a whole. I posted similar question posed about and to italians some 100 years ago...in fact its the same question. And here were the responses:

De Marco objected to the question’s implication that all Italians were prone to violent crime. He attributed the violence to the peasant custom of settling conflict by means of the personal vendetta. However, he emphasized that only a small proportion of Italians were doing this in America: that the majority of Italians were law abiding, and that the newspapers were more interested in headlines than truth.


Santuossuo made sure to clarify what the question was: Not if Italians were committing most of the violent crime, but if the crimes they were committing were more often violent crimes. He accepted the latter as valid, and said that it ultimately stemmed from the passionate nature of Italians and the fact that the recent history of Italy and the harsh conditions of immigration did not provide a positive outlet for that passion.

Badaracco began by stating that the newspapers were responsible for the giving Italians a bad name when each murder committed by Italians was headlined “Another Italian Murder,” but that murders committed by Yankees were not similarly headlined “Another Yankee Murder.” Moreover, Badaracco noted that the crimes that Italians did commit were often a response to attacks by anti-immigrant “hoodlums” or exacerbated by the harsh conditions of immigration.

Finally, Scigliano responded by noting that the crime appeared to be rising in the last few years, but said it was due solely to the “economic and social” context of immigration, mainly overcrowded living quarters and low wages. When these were rectified, Italian crime would subside.


Since we're replaying history...take your pick for the explanation as it applies to the black community.

As I mentioned, cultural appropriation or cultural identities have turned into a separating issue today because people want to be different. That creates a divide between races.

A person wanting to maintain and/or express the traditions, language and aspects of their particular culture doesn't have to divide anyone. What is an american? what is american culture specifically?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I've never understood "white pride", "black pride" , or when people say, "I am a proud whatever-race person". How can you be proud of something you had nothing to do with?

People can and should be proud of their accomplishments in life, of things they've taken action to achieve. But none of us have any say over what race we're born into.

Black pride is pretty obvious to me. For a long time black people have been told they were inferior by the nature of being born with a certain skin color. You say people do not have a say in their race, which is of course true, but that just makes the treatment of people based on it more painful.

So like with many such things people are told they should be ashamed about, they turn it on the head and they wear it like a badge of honor, emphasizing it. It is therapeutic as hell and does a lot for the self-esteem.


White pride feels very much like people trying to hold onto a certain power dynamic.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

A person wanting to maintain and/or express the traditions, language and aspects of their particular culture doesn't have to divide anyone. What is an american? what is american culture specifically?

I am with you in general, but I have a big problem with the concept of "culture appropriation". Namely the idea that because you aren't a certain race, you can't embrace ideas.

As to American culture, well for a long time it was basically referring to white culture in the US.

 

[Kelly]

There is an "American Culture"????? hmmmm....

 

[DarthSkywalker]

There is an "American Culture"????? hmmmm....

Theoretically there is, but defining it is hard because of the very nature of this country. But what people mean when they say it is "White American Culture". Simply look at the past at what is considered Americana.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'd say it's an Anglo-Saxon culture which is undergoing syncretism with other cultures.

 

[chaseter]

The question implies that also your explanation of culturally influenced implies it as well...whose culture? American culture or black culture?

I don't have to speak for the whole group of blacks as to why murder rates are higher...as far as I'm concerned crime is crime across the board and of the 40 MILLION or so blacks in America the vast majority do not commit crimes and therefore shouldn't have to answer for those who do.

When you raise the statistics argument and ask the question: When adjusted proportionally for population, blackS are 5x more likely than whites to commit homicide, regardless of the race of the victim. How do you explain that?

You are implying that the group is responsible and those stats are in fact reflective of the group as a whole. I posted similar question posed about and to italians some 100 years ago...in fact its the same question. And here were the responses:

De Marco objected to the question’s implication that all Italians were prone to violent crime. He attributed the violence to the peasant custom of settling conflict by means of the personal vendetta. However, he emphasized that only a small proportion of Italians were doing this in America: that the majority of Italians were law abiding, and that the newspapers were more interested in headlines than truth.


Santuossuo made sure to clarify what the question was: Not if Italians were committing most of the violent crime, but if the crimes they were committing were more often violent crimes. He accepted the latter as valid, and said that it ultimately stemmed from the passionate nature of Italians and the fact that the recent history of Italy and the harsh conditions of immigration did not provide a positive outlet for that passion.

Badaracco began by stating that the newspapers were responsible for the giving Italians a bad name when each murder committed by Italians was headlined “Another Italian Murder,” but that murders committed by Yankees were not similarly headlined “Another Yankee Murder.” Moreover, Badaracco noted that the crimes that Italians did commit were often a response to attacks by anti-immigrant “hoodlums” or exacerbated by the harsh conditions of immigration.

Finally, Scigliano responded by noting that the crime appeared to be rising in the last few years, but said it was due solely to the “economic and social” context of immigration, mainly overcrowded living quarters and low wages. When these were rectified, Italian crime would subside.


Since we're replaying history...take your pick for the explanation as it applies to the black community.




A person wanting to maintain and/or express the traditions, language and aspects of their particular culture doesn't have to divide anyone. What is an american? what is american culture specifically?

So you can't answer my questions and instead say it's because the system is rigged based on an example 100 years ago? You can't argue against factual statistics. You can only explain them. We don't live in 1920.

You can be proud of where you came from, your ancestral heritage. But, when that dictates how you act, how you view other races in relation to yourself, and how you view your race's place in society...it creates issues. People are purposefully separating themselves. Why? Any negativity in any of that cocktail is a recipe for racism.

 

[hellified]

So you can't answer my questions and instead say it's because the system is rigged based on an example 100 years ago? You can't argue against factual statistics. You can only explain them. We don't live in 1920.

but we are using system devised from the era. A system designed to separate and divide in the same manner you speak out against. Even tho that was 100 years ago the system never really changed did it? Its just another group in the hotseat. That being the case the answer to your question is the same as it was back then. The true solution to the issue of why certain types of crime is higher for a specific group than others isn't education or some kind of cultural shift...Its for that offending group to be designated as white americans. Thats what actually worked for the irish and italians etc.

You can be proud of where you came from, your ancestral heritage. But, when that dictates how you act, how you view other races in relation to yourself, and how you view your race's place in society...it creates issues. People are purposefully separating themselves. Why? Any negativity in any of that cocktail is a recipe for racism.

what youre talking about isn't a recent thing..it happened a long time...IMO I believe it started here:

SLAVE LAWS PASSED IN VIRGINIA:

1660 — 1680: Slave Laws Further Restrict Freedom of Blacks and Legalize Different Treatment for Blacks and Whites

1667 - Virginia lawmakers say baptism does not bring freedom to blacks. The statute is passed because some slaves used their status as a Christian in the 1640s and 1650s to argue for their freedom or for freedom for a child. Legislators also encourage slave owners to Christianize their enslaved men, women and children.

1668 - Free black women, like enslaved females over the age of 16, are deemed tithable. The Virginia General Assembly says freedom does not exempt black women from taxation.

1669 - An act about the "casual killing of slaves" says that if a slave dies while resisting his master, the act will not be presumed to have occurred with “prepensed malice.”

1670 - Free blacks and Native Americans who had been baptized are forbidden to buy Christian servants.

1672 - It becomes legal to wound or kill an enslaved person who resists arrest. Legislators also deem that the owner of any slave killed as he resisted arrest will receive financial compensation for the loss of an enslaved laborer. Legislators also offer a reward to Indians who capture escaped slaves and return them to a justice of the peace.

that highlighted law in 1670 forbids free blacks and indians from owning WHITE SERVANTS (christian=white) so while free blacks could own other blacks they couldn't own whites by law...

That law effectively makes slavery chattel and also separates whites from nonwhites in the institution...Thus creating a level that even the poorest white person can't fall below. I believe its the basis for all the race politics played out even today.

 

[moviedoors]

I don't think the homeless white veteran wants to hear about the level he "can't fall below" because of some stuff that happened CENTURIES ago.

 

[hellified]

I don't think the homeless white veteran wants to hear about the level he "can't fall below" because of some stuff that happened CENTURIES ago.

there are trailer park welfare receiving, raman noodle every day eating, 3 days wearing the same clothes trashiest white people who will say "at least I'm not black".

Poor whites TODAY catch as much hell as poor minorities but have historically and consistently chosen their skin color over their class distinction because of those very laws. This is why white racist groups consist primarily of poor whites, its also why the easiest way to get poor whites to vote AGAINST their economic best interest is to say it helps minorities but especially blacks and you will see poor whites viscerally angry in opposition to whatever measure is proposed even tho it benefits them too. American history has shown that poor whites inevitably and invariably WILL choose their skin color over their class distinction whenever that race politics carrot is dangled in their face and the root of that can be traced directly back to that time period.

 

[chamber-music]

I've never understood "white pride", "black pride" , or when people say, "I am a proud whatever-race person". How can you be proud of something you had nothing to do with?

People can and should be proud of their accomplishments in life, of things they've taken action to achieve. But none of us have any say over what race we're born into.

Black Pride was born out of subjugation. It isn't hard to see why black people would want to empower themselves by celebrating their heritage or culture which was often suppressed, belittled or ignored.

The whole Black is beautiful cultural movement in the sixties was response to black features such as skin tone or hair being perceived as inherently ugly or undesirable due to wider multiracial society and the internalized racism within the black community.

I don't know of anyone that talks about white pride who isn't a neo-nazi/white supremacists type. Most white people tend to be proud of their specific national heritage (Irish, Italian, German, ect) rather than 'race'. White and black culture isn't monolithic.

I agree with you about being proud of things that you did not accomplish yourself. I always think it is odd when people take personal pride in the victory of a historical conflict. People boasting about winning a war when they were not even born when that war took place is weird.

 

[chamber-music]

I am with you in general, but I have a big problem with the concept of "culture appropriation". Namely the idea that because you aren't a certain race, you can't embrace ideas.
.

I agree.

Human civilization is built off of cultural assimilation . The exchange of cultures and ideas is what made the world what it is. Music, food, clothes, architecture and a many other things have come from people taking ideas from different cultures.

I can certainly understand some criticism of people stealing certain things from another culture to monetize for themselves without giving due credit to the culture they took those ideas from or misappropriation of something to mock a particular culture like blackface.

In Australia for example Aboriginal artists have discussed "authenticity brand" to ensure consumers are aware of artworks claiming false Aboriginal significance. In 1999 John O'Loughlin was convicted of the fraudulent sale of works described as Aboriginal but painted by non-indigenous artists.

Cultural appropriation isn't simply a racial issue. Irish people have the term 'Plastic Paddy' for someone who imitates or misrepresents Irish culture. Some Irish people don't look kindly on the Irish diaspora who misappropriate stereotypical aspects of Irish customs and identity at overly commercialized and distorted St. Patrick's Day celebrations in America for example.

 

[SV Fan]

Cultural appropriation isn't simply a racial issue. Irish people have the term 'Plastic Paddy' for someone who imitates or misrepresents Irish culture. Some Irish people don't look kindly on the Irish diaspora who misappropriate stereotypical aspects of Irish customs and identity

Even if the stuff is magically delicious?

 

[DeadPresident]

Black Pride was born out of subjugation. It isn't hard to see why black people would want to empower themselves by celebrating their heritage or culture which was often suppressed, belittled or ignored.

The whole Black is beautiful cultural movement in the sixties was response to black features such as skin tone or hair being perceived as inherently ugly or undesirable due to wider multiracial society and the internalized racism within the black community.

I don't know of anyone that talks about white pride who isn't a neo-nazi/white supremacists type. Most white people tend to be proud of their specific national heritage (Irish, Italian, German, ect) rather than 'race'. White and black culture isn't monolithic.

I agree with you about being proud of things that you did not accomplish yourself. I always think it is odd when people take personal pride in the victory of a historical conflict. People boasting about winning a war when they were not even born when that war took place is weird.

While it's an understandable explanation it's just counter productive in the long run. There's a pendulum effect of people now going after "white culture" (whatever that is) and whiteness in general that's just going to encourage white pride and racism to bubble up in response. The more people prioritize whatever their identity categories are instead of their individual good behavior the more we just stay locked in a discourse of legitimizing people based on random things like their race, religion or sexuality.

The worst thing anyone can be taught or support is that cultural identity will ever usurp actual behavior - it's the reason the right wing is on the rise in Europe and why you've got these radical exponents in movements like BLM that believe their cultural identity has some intrinsic value.

 

[SV Fan]

The worst thing anyone can be taught or support is that cultural identity will ever usurp actual behavior - it's the reason the right wing is on the rise in Europe and why you've got these radical exponents in movements like BLM that believe their cultural identity has some intrinsic value.

I am just waiting for Jupiter to align with Mars.

[YT]kjxSCAalsBE[/YT]

 

[moviedoors]

there are trailer park welfare receiving, raman noodle every day eating, 3 days wearing the same clothes trashiest white people who will say "at least I'm not black".

Poor whites TODAY catch as much hell as poor minorities but have historically and consistently chosen their skin color over their class distinction because of those very laws. This is why white racist groups consist primarily of poor whites, its also why the easiest way to get poor whites to vote AGAINST their economic best interest is to say it helps minorities but especially blacks and you will see poor whites viscerally angry in opposition to whatever measure is proposed even tho it benefits them too. American history has shown that poor whites inevitably and invariably WILL choose their skin color over their class distinction whenever that race politics carrot is dangled in their face and the root of that can be traced directly back to that time period.

I didn't mention trailer parks, I mentioned the homeless.

 

[chaseter]

there are trailer park welfare receiving, raman noodle every day eating, 3 days wearing the same clothes trashiest white people who will say "at least I'm not black".

Poor whites TODAY catch as much hell as poor minorities but have historically and consistently chosen their skin color over their class distinction because of those very laws. This is why white racist groups consist primarily of poor whites, its also why the easiest way to get poor whites to vote AGAINST their economic best interest is to say it helps minorities but especially blacks and you will see poor whites viscerally angry in opposition to whatever measure is proposed even tho it benefits them too. American history has shown that poor whites inevitably and invariably WILL choose their skin color over their class distinction whenever that race politics carrot is dangled in their face and the root of that can be traced directly back to that time period.

We aren't living in the past and the people that do are generally the ones that care about race. It's time to move into the the new century and leave behind the angry racists.

 

[SuperT]

I am with you in general, but I have a big problem with the concept of "culture appropriation". Namely the idea that because you aren't a certain race, you can't embrace ideas.

There's a difference between embracing and celebrating ideas from other cultures and downright stealing and disrespecting them. The later is what cultural appropriation is defined as. For years black women were made fun, ridiculed and hated for their curvy bodies and now that white women have jumped on the train it's now seen as in style. Another example, how white people now want to wear afros, cornrows, or dreads - black people were and still are denied jobs for wearing their natural hair but when a white person does it, it's now trendy.

Another example would be all the idiot white people I saw at Coachella (and everywhere else) this year strutting around wearing Native American headgear and clothing. So disrespectful - people's cultures aren't costumes. That's what's so frustrating for minorities - we get consistently ridiculed for loving and embracing our culture, unique features but white people do it and it's seen a new,edgy and trendy. GTFOH!

As far as African-American, Hispanic, Indian, Native American any other minority culture wanting to hold up and stick to their histories and where they came from - what's wrong with that? I love being black, I love my culture, where I came from, our history etc. I don't want to be more like a white person. When you say things like "Black Pride" or "Hispanic Pride" alienates and divides - that's BS. You simply don't want us to tout our own cultures and customs here because it makes you feel uncomfortable and forces you to actually accept the that fact that being different isn't a bad thing. Once again, minorities don't want to just assimilate and be like white people. We want you to accept us as we are and if you don't, your loss.

 

[SV Fan]

there are trailer park welfare receiving, raman noodle every day eating, 3 days wearing the same clothes trashiest white people who will say "at least I'm not black".

Poor whites TODAY catch as much hell as poor minorities but have historically and consistently chosen their skin color over their class distinction because of those very laws. This is why white racist groups consist primarily of poor whites, its also why the easiest way to get poor whites to vote AGAINST their economic best interest is to say it helps minorities but especially blacks and you will see poor whites viscerally angry in opposition to whatever measure is proposed even tho it benefits them too. American history has shown that poor whites inevitably and invariably WILL choose their skin color over their class distinction whenever that race politics carrot is dangled in their face and the root of that can be traced directly back to that time period.

It should be noted that alot of white people in poverty live in rural areas, so they have the benefit lower cost of living and the fact they can do stuff like have gardens, hunt or fish.

 

[chamber-music]

Another example, how white people now want to wear afros, cornrows, or dreads - black people were and still are denied jobs for wearing their natural hair but when a white person does it, it's now trendy.

I never understood this one as a black man. Any hair cut besides a buzz cut is pretty much seen as a big no no in so many places. I'm not talking unruly or extreme hair styles but just anything outside of the typical buzz cut is treated as unprofessional or unacceptable. I have friends of other races that can have a wide variety or hair styles and not get looked down upon them for having them.

I don't get other black guys with that internalized racism that treat black women who have natural hair like there is something wrong with them either. God knows what would happen if the world ever ran out of fake weave or hair relaxer. Some brothas would not have sex ever again.

 

[chaseter]

A white person with cornrows isn't going to get a job anywhere other than McDonalds either. That has nothing to do with race.

 

[hellified]

We aren't living in the past and the people that do are generally the ones that care about race. It's time to move into the the new century and leave behind the angry racists.

theyre still a significant voting block..theyre why trump is able to be competitive..thats the anger and attitude he's able to tap into.

 

[TheCommissioner]

AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson understands 'Black Lives Matter'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eful-defense-of-black-lives-matter/?tid=sm_fb

Stephenson admitted he had always been somewhat "confused" by the racial views of his friend, a black physician who served three tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. But when he saw him address a mostly white church congregation about being refused service at restaurants, being called "boy" and even fearing being stopped by police in his own neighborhood, Stephenson finally understood the depth of his friend's frustration.

 

[TheCommissioner]

theyre still a significant voting block..theyre why trump is able to be competitive..thats the anger and attitude he's able to tap into.

even Mrs Clinton danced around the race relations question at the debate because expressing concern for minorities will still cost you votes in some parts of the United States

We can leave the racists behind when they start slinking back into the shadows and don't represent large voting blocs

 

[Hotwire]

A white person with cornrows isn't going to get a job anywhere other than McDonalds either. That has nothing to do with race.

A white person with cornrows needs the job, though. So they can afford a mirror to see how stupid they look!

As much as I hate to admit racial differences, there are certainly looks that only people of certain races can pull off. Black guys, you just can't rock a mullet. But that's okay. I'm a red head and can't pull off an afro.