Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Filmfreak]

People keep complaining about Malekith or Whiplash etc but for me the real indication you have a problem is when you take iconic villains like Red Skull, Mandarin or Ultron and for different reasons you fail to overcome mediocrity. I think with the exception of Loki and the Winter Soldier who both became somewhat of anti-heroes later on, MCU hasn't really given us a legitimately good villain. Thankfully that's not the case with the Netflix shows though.

 

[Drz]

Yeah but the Netflix shows have been too happy to

Spoiler

kill off characters.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I didn't say he wasn't, I just don't think that neither him nor Ultron had their physical threat be much of a part of their overall threat. Both of them tried to use something to devastate a planet and really didn't need to beat up the heroes to do it. Both characters of course could have done it more given their power in the comics, but I don't think it turned out that way in the movies.

I would say Ronan's physical threat was quite a big part of the story. It was shown repeatedly they would not be able to beat him physically. So in the end they had to distract and outsmart him.

Ultron SHOULD have been that as well. But instead lost every battle he had in the movie. He was just not intimidating or threatening at all. 2 things a good villain should be.

 

[Flint Marko]

People keep complaining about Malekith or Whiplash etc but for me the real indication you have a problem is when you take iconic villains like Red Skull, Mandarin or Ultron and for different reasons you fail to overcome mediocrity. I think with the exception of Loki and the Winter Soldier who both became somewhat of anti-heroes later on, MCU hasn't really given us a legitimately good villain. Thankfully that's not the case with the Netflix shows though.

Say what you want about Ultron or the Mandarin, I don't know why so many people disparage the Red Skull. I thought he was pretty good.

 

[Filmfreak]

Say what you want about Ultron or the Mandarin, I don't know why so many people disparage the Red Skull. I thought he was pretty good.

He felt like a random, unimportant villain to me. Visually he was very faithful to the comic books and Hugo Weaving is a great actor so I'm not exactly sure what went wrong. Even so he shouldn't be "pretty good". He should be great. He should be Kingpin great. He was one of the biggest guns Marvel had before making the deal with Sony. So I guess it could be that they tried to fit him into the rather campy tone of the first Captain America movie.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Red Skull is a throwback to evil-for-the-sake-of-evil serial villains. That's really what he is in the comics as well. Kingpin is and should be a far deeper and more conflicted character than Red Skull. They are completely different types of villains.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Ronan's a villain with quite a bit of potential. He needed more of an arc or something. Like slipping Thanos's leash, and incidentally coming into conflict with the GotG.

The biggest problem with Ronan is that they killed him off. He had a believable backstory and was interesting and threatening enough, but he felt like wasted potential. Kind of like if George Lucas killed off Darth Vader at the end of A New Hope, like he was originally going to. Darth Vader was cool and badass and everything in A New Hope, but he wasn't DARTH VADER until The Empire Strikes Back. There was a lot more they could do with Ronan in future films.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The biggest problem with Ronan is that they killed him off. He had a believable backstory and was interesting and threatening enough, but he felt like wasted potential. Kind of like if George Lucas killed off Darth Vader at the end of A New Hope, like he was originally going to. Darth Vader was cool and badass and everything in A New Hope, but he wasn't DARTH VADER until The Empire Strikes Back. There was a lot more they could do with Ronan in future films.

Totally agree. Being a big fan of the character in the comics as well, believe me, they didn't even scratch the surface in terms of the potential of the character.

 

[BoredGuy]

yeah it bummed me out they gave him such a final-looking death

he shoulda just been blinked out of existence by the stone
that way Thanos could 'resurrect' him, Malekith, and Red Skull and have some badass lookin' lieutenants in IW


hmm, weird, all the coolest looking MCU villains suffered a lack of development and the same sad fate... strange

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Nothing really. Upon repeated viewings he's more or less Malekith 2.O.

Agreed. Maelkith was boring villain too.

 

[Mjölnir]

I would say Ronan's physical threat was quite a big part of the story. It was shown repeatedly they would not be able to beat him physically. So in the end they had to distract and outsmart him.

Ultron SHOULD have been that as well. But instead lost every battle he had in the movie. He was just not intimidating or threatening at all. 2 things a good villain should be.

I only remember one fight with Ronan as himself, when he smacked Drax around. That didn't say much about what would happen if Rocket shot him with his big ass gun.

The threat of the Infinity Stone is something they couldn't beat however, but the power of the stone is not the same as Ronan's physical threat during the movie. Just as how Thor didn't just fight Malekith at the end of TDW, he fought the power of the stone which was far greater than the villain himself, and the actual point of the villain's plan.

I would too have liked to see a bit more of Vibranium Ultron at the end, but otherwise I liked that he utilized the strategy of expendable bodies to further his plan since that's a huge thing that separates him from everything else in the MCU. Precense-wise I think Ultron easily outdoes Ronan, as Ultron is one of my favorites in that regard in CBM's in general.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I only remember one fight with Ronan as himself, when he smacked Drax around. That didn't say much about what would happen if Rocket shot him with his big ass gun.

The threat of the Infinity Stone is something they couldn't beat however, but the power of the stone is not the same as Ronan's physical threat during the movie. Just as how Thor didn't just fight Malekith at the end of TDW, he fought the power of the stone which was far greater than the villain himself, and the actual point of the villain's plan.

I would too have liked to see a bit more of Vibranium Ultron at the end, but otherwise I liked that he utilized the strategy of expendable bodies to further his plan since that's a huge thing that separates him from everything else in the MCU. Precense-wise I think Ultron easily outdoes Ronan, as Ultron is one of my favorites in that regard in CBM's in general.

Ronan had a fear factor though and showed he is not to be trifled with by killing The Other with ease. Then he beat the **** out of Drax, who was the teams most powerful member. This all established him as threat, and THEN he got the power boost from the Infinity Stone as well. He was established early as a threat to the team and someone they couldn't overcome with brute strength.

Ultron simply lost every battle he had in the movie and didn't come across as threatening at all. I never once feared The Avengers might not succeed against him and the drones were like paper, even BW and Hawkeye didn't even get out of breath fighting them. As a whole Ultron was so disappointing as a threat.

 

[Mjölnir]

The biggest problem with Ronan is that they killed him off. He had a believable backstory and was interesting and threatening enough, but he felt like wasted potential. Kind of like if George Lucas killed off Darth Vader at the end of A New Hope, like he was originally going to. Darth Vader was cool and badass and everything in A New Hope, but he wasn't DARTH VADER until The Empire Strikes Back. There was a lot more they could do with Ronan in future films.

I agree. Vader in ANH is really a standard badass villain that just happened to resonate with the audience (even his dramatic impact on the final battle is kind of low). Looking at my favorite super villains in movies and shows it's clear that getting more than one movie's worth of development is important in order to really elevate a character.

Of course we can't keep reusing all the villains since there's so many good candidates to use, which adds variety, but a few more coming back would certainly be a good things. Ronan certainly could have been one since the Guardians are also so distanced from the rest.

 

[TeeKay]

I didn't feel like Drax was the strongest member in GotG. He didn't have a Hulk like "Im alway angry "moment for me to say he's the toughest on the team. And I know in the comics he's far more superior that we got. Gunn nerfed him. And also he got smacked around whilst being Drunk. When never really saw a proper Drax vs Ronan fight.

 

[Mjölnir]

Ronan had a fear factor though and showed he is not to be trifled with by killing The Other with ease. Then he beat the **** out of Drax, who was the teams most powerful member. This all established him as threat, and THEN he got the power boost from the Infinity Stone as well. He was established early as a threat to the team and someone they couldn't overcome with brute strength.

Ultron simply lost every battle he had in the movie and didn't come across as threatening at all. I never once feared The Avengers might not succeed against him and the drones were like paper, even BW and Hawkeye didn't even get out of breath fighting them. As a whole Ultron was so disappointing as a threat.

I'd say Groot is more powerful than Drax by his feats, but I agree that none of the Guardians could beat Ronan in one on one close combat. They aren't the likes of Thor or Hulk. I still don't agree that he seemed invincible to them and the important threat of him in the movie was his overall plan and the resources he had.

I don't really fear that any superhero will lose in any of the big CBM's. They all win all the time, although with a casualty or two in some cases. Ultron's threat was rather the extinction of mankind than killing the Avengers specifically, and he came closer to his goal than most. I think you just wanted a different kind of threat, rather than that he wasn't close to achieve something devastating.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I didn't feel like Drax was the strongest member in GotG. He didn't have a Hulk like "Im alway angry "moment for me to say he's the toughest on the team. And I know in the comics he's far more superior that we got. Gunn nerfed him. And also he got smacked around whilst being Drunk. When never really saw a proper Drax vs Ronan fight.

Gunn says himself on the Blu Ray Drax is the strongest member of the team and he did the brief fight between him and Groot to show it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I'd say Groot is more powerful than Drax by his feats, but I agree that none of the Guardians could beat Ronan in one on one close combat. They aren't the likes of Thor or Hulk. I still don't agree that he seemed invincible to them and the important threat of him in the movie was his overall plan and the resources he had.

I don't really fear that any superhero will lose in any of the big CBM's. They all win all the time, although with a casualty or two in some cases. Ultron's threat was rather the extinction of mankind than killing the Avengers specifically, and he came closer to his goal than most. I think you just wanted a different kind of threat, rather than that he wasn't close to achieve something devastating.

Gunn says himself Drax is the strongest member, see my other post.

Can't agree he came closer than most to achieving his goal, think many other villains were much closer.

I certainly didn't mind Ultron's plan, or his personality, so I wouldn't say I wanted a different villain. I just wanted a good one. A good villain doesn't get his ass kicked regularly, he comes across as a threat to the hero/heroes throughout. Ultron never came across as a threat throughout, despite his original plan being getting rid of the Avengers. He was just poor in this aspect. I know the heroes are going to win most of the time. But a good villain has me questioning if or how the heroes will beat him/her.

I had that with Ronan, I had it with Kilgrave, and I had with many more villains in other movies. With Ultron there was none of that, no tension at all to the movie and how he was going to get beaten and his plan foiled. He isn't the only Marvel villain to do this, but I certainly expected more from Ultron. In the comics he is constantly a threat, and a big one. In the movie he wasn't a threat at all, and that was the case literally from his creation onwards. It was simply poorly done.

 

[TeeKay]

Gunn says himself on the Blu Ray Drax is the strongest member of the team and he did the brief fight between him and Groot to show it.

Show don't tell. And again his fight with Groot, he was drunk.

 

[TeeKay]

I'd say Groot is more powerful than Drax by his feats, but I agree that none of the Guardians could beat Ronan in one on one close combat. They aren't the likes of Thor or Hulk. I still don't agree that he seemed invincible to them and the important threat of him in the movie was his overall plan and the resources he had.

I don't really fear that any superhero will lose in any of the big CBM's. They all win all the time, although with a casualty or two in some cases. Ultron's threat was rather the extinction of mankind than killing the Avengers specifically, and he came closer to his goal than most. I think you just wanted a different kind of threat, rather than that he wasn't close to achieve something devastating.

As Ultron said,"You need patience, you need to see the BIGGER PICTURE". Just like he's creator, he was working towards his end game. That was more important to him than anything else.

Ultrons main feat and strength lied in the fact that he's everywhere and you couldn't kill him. Destroy his body? He jumps into another one. The whole film was predicated on the fact that it was a wild goose chase. Ultron himself knew his body couldn't defeat the Avengers considering Stark took one out. So he was going to evolve into a body where he could take the Avengers directly.

So it was the Avengers trying to stop him into evolving into a God basically. Though after they stole Vision, it was all down hill for me. I was on board with Ultron and Joss' idea but the tension was gone. Vision is suppose to be his ultimate body, now what? Sure he coated himself in vibranium but we know Wanda could easily destroy that body. I wish we actually saw him take on all my Avengers by himself even if he was gonna lose. I still think he's the standout character in the film though. He s meteor plan was insane though.

 

[Mjölnir]

Gunn says himself Drax is the strongest member, see my other post.

Can't agree he came closer than most to achieving his goal, think many other villains were much closer.

I certainly didn't mind Ultron's plan, or his personality, so I wouldn't say I wanted a different villain. I just wanted a good one. A good villain doesn't get his ass kicked regularly, he comes across as a threat to the hero/heroes throughout. Ultron never came across as a threat throughout, despite his original plan being getting rid of the Avengers. He was just poor in this aspect. I know the heroes are going to win most of the time. But a good villain has me questioning if or how the heroes will beat him/her.

I had that with Ronan, I had it with Kilgrave, and I had with many more villains in other movies. With Ultron there was none of that, no tension at all to the movie and how he was going to get beaten and his plan foiled. He isn't the only Marvel villain to do this, but I certainly expected more from Ultron. In the comics he is constantly a threat, and a big one. In the movie he wasn't a threat at all, and that was the case literally from his creation onwards. It was simply poorly done.

I think he failed to show that though. The way Groot smashes guys on the Dark Aster is the biggest physical feat I saw in the movie. Also that's in killing mode, which I doubt any of the two were when they brawled at the bar. Especially not Groot who seems to be pretty kind in general.

I certainly don't agree that most villains came closer than being seconds away from utter devastation, let alone much closer. I wasn't referring to a different villain either, I was referring to that you just wanted the villain to be a different threat than he was.

That's fine that you feel that way. For me he's top 5 in the movies as he was more interesting than most villains to me. Quite far from the generic version of what he is, which most super villains aren't.

 

[First Avenger]

I really don't agree with the 'Ultron losing every battle' argument. In Africa he lets Stark destroy him to buy some time while his drones take the vibranium away; if it wasn't for the Twins,Cap would have lost against him in Seoul; he KO'd the Vision and took Thor out of the battle in Sokovia; he killed Pietro after surviving to the combined powers of Thor,Vision,Iron Man and Hulk. And he was very close to achieve his extinction-level event imo. I know people wanted an invincible powerhouse but I was happy with what I got. I accept that some characters (like Thor or Hulk) need to be 'weakened' in the movies compared to the comics.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Show don't tell. And again his fight with Groot, he was drunk.

Well he does show it in the movie, a couple of times actually, it's just done in a subtle way. Groot was also drunk during their fight, and Groot could do nothing to stop Drax at the time. Drax had to be pulled off Groot as Groot himself could do nothing.

Also, Drax was the only one able to get straight back up on the Dark Aster after Ronan blasts the team. The rest, including Groot, are down for the count until Rocket intervenes.

Gamora was able to beat the crap out of Groot on Xandar and was quite obviously not on Drax's level throughout.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As Ultron said,"You need patience, you need to see the BIGGER PICTURE". Just like he's creator, he was working towards his end game. That was more important to him than anything else.

Ultrons main feat and strength lied in the fact that he's everywhere and you couldn't kill him. Destroy his body? He jumps into another one. The whole film was predicated on the fact that it was a wild goose chase. Ultron himself knew his body couldn't defeat the Avengers considering Stark took one out. So he was going to evolve into a body where he could take the Avengers directly.

So it was the Avengers trying to stop him into evolving into a God basically. Though after they stole Vision, it was all down hill for me. I was on board with Ultron and Joss' idea but the tension was gone. Vision is suppose to be his ultimate body, now what? Sure he coated himself in vibranium but we know Wanda could easily destroy that body. I wish we actually saw him take on all my Avengers by himself even if he was gonna lose. I still think he's the standout character in the film though. He s meteor plan was insane though.

Personally I thought there was no tension throughout, but I agree the final battle was the biggest offender. People say he beat the crap out of Thor, yet Thor was able to get straight back up after this so called beating and was even fit enough to make a joke, hardly a beating in my eyes. It should shown him taking the whole team on, or at least a couple of the more powerful ones at a time. For me Marvel does have a problem with their villains if they can't get iconic ones like Ultron and Red Skull right. I never felt a threat from either.

I honestly hope for the future movies they talk to the Netflix guys, honestly Kilgrave could come across as more threatening in a 10 min scene than most of the movie villains come across with much more screen time.

 

[Mjölnir]

Well he does show it in the movie, a couple of times actually, it's just done in a subtle way. Groot was also drunk during their fight, and Groot could do nothing to stop Drax at the time. Drax had to be pulled off Groot as Groot himself could do nothing.

Also, Drax was the only one able to get straight back up on the Dark Aster after Ronan blasts the team. The rest, including Groot, are down for the count until Rocket intervenes.

Gamora was able to beat the crap out of Groot on Xandar and was quite obviously not on Drax's level throughout.

We never saw Drax being able to do something like what Groot didin that corridor on the Dark Aster either. That was easily the biggest offensive power display of the heroes in the movie, as noted by the reaction of Drax and Starlord as well.

As for Gamora, it looked like she could have killed Drax with the knife in the prison as he became very docile until she threw the knife away.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

We never saw Drax being able to do something like what Groot didin that corridor on the Dark Aster either. That was easily the biggest offensive power display of the heroes in the movie, as noted by the reaction of Drax and Starlord as well.

As for Gamora, it looked like she could have killed Drax with the knife in the prison as he became very docile until she threw the knife away.

Groots feat was more to do with his range of powers though, Drax couldn't do that if he tried because he can't grow his arms. Drax also took out Korath who was Ronans main comrade and powerful himself. That's like saying Hulk would lose Iron Man because he can't fly.

Gamora could have killed Drax, but not through brute force, in that moment she simply got the drop on him. Drax clearly showed throughout he was much stronger. Tearing robots apart and hitting people a fair distance, at last until they hit the pillar in the prison. Also, the same people who were going to kill Gamora were terrified of Drax.