Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

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Kilgrave and Fisk are indeed great, but they are not part of the MCU anymore than Agents Of Shield is.

If you honestly don't believe that they're a part of the same cinematic universe just because the movies don't reference the events of the shows, then you're being deliberately obtuse.

Don't get your knickers in a twist. You said because other companies have dine poor villains we can stop criticising the MCU for it, I disagree. Other companies doing bad villains just means they should be criticised also.

I never said that we should stop criticizing the MCU for it. Please go back and re-read what I've been saying because, again, you've missed my point.
 
Assessing the villains film by film:

Phase 1
Stane: Been a while since I saw the first Iron Man, but from what I remember, Stane was pretty great. You can't hold the "Evil Version of Hero" trope against him, because at that point it hadn't become as cliched as it is today. It's just a shame that they didn't use his suicide from the comics. 8/10

Abomination: As I've only seen TIH once, and that was ages ago, I don't really feel confident making any judgments on Abomination.

Whiplash: They had a great character going here, played by a tremendous actor, but butchered most of his arc in the editing room. If he wasn't supposed to be the headlining villain, maybe he would be alright, but as much as they wasted him, they only get partial credit. 6/10

Hammer: The saving grace of IM2 from being a mess on the villain's side, Rockwell absolutely nailed Hammer. Now, I have no idea if it's an accurate portrayal, but the character who made it on screen remains one of the MCU's best villains, and it's an awful shame they've so far failed to bring about his return. 8/10

Red Skull: Weaving's hypocritical stance's on this sort of movie aside, he gave a very good performance as Skull. Of course, that's not hard, Schmidt isn't exactly a complex villain. He served his purpose and is gone. It would be nice to see him recast and brought back in the future, but I can live without it. 7/10

Loki: It's not really fair that Loki is viewed as the Number 1 villain in the MCU, he's had three movies worth of development, after all. But taking that into account, it's easy to see why he is so popular. Witty, charismatic, and fueled by a stellar preformance by Tom Hiddleston, Loki deserves all the praise he gets. 9/10
Good:Servicable:Wasted - 3:2:1

Phase 2
Aldrich Killian: Finally, Iron Man faces someone who isn't just another guy in a suit. Killian really had a brilliant plan, no matter how you feel about the Mandarin twist, and he fit perfectly into the story Shane Black was telling with Iron Man 3. Plus he breathed fire. 8/10

Malekith: You have to give him some points for looking cool, but I argue that Malekith takes the cake for the biggest waste of a villain in all of the MCU. He really doesn't do anything memorable, heck, his henchman Kurse has next to no lines and is more memorable than him. Despite his great actor and design, Malekith managed to be the weakest link in an already weak movie 4/10

Alexander Pierce: When Robert Redford signed on to the part, you knew it would be good, and he certainly lived up to the hype, proving a much better Hydra head than Red Skull managed to be. And with him, his death was fitting and very well executed, unlike so many needless dead villains in the MCU 9/10

Ronan: Much like Malekith, Ronan had a great actor and a great costume to help him out, but never managed to be all too impressive, and was done a huge disservice by the film's final act. But he at least managed to sneak in a few more memorable moments than the Dark Elf. 5/10

Ultron: Well, Ultron is tough to judge. On one hand, he's not a bad villain. Spader and Whedon gave him a unique and memorable personality. On the other hand, by the time he reached the climax, the film was veering painfully close to the original Avengers. At the end of the day, AOU just never fulfilled on the threat that Ultron SHOULD be. The HISHE video for the movie showed a more threatening villain, for Pete's sake! 7/10

Yellowjacket: You can't get a much more looser adaptation than this. Darren Cross of the film has little to do with either his comic counterpart nor that of his alter-ego. But he boasted one of, if not THE, best villain costume in the MCU, and Corey Stoll delivered a brilliant performance with what he was given, which was tragically little character development and a presumed death scene which was massively disappointing. 7/10
2:2:2

Phase 3

Zemo: As much as I would have loved Zemo to be more accurate, Bruhl delivered one of the best turns yet in a Marvel film, standing out even when his villainy wasn't the focus of the overall plot. Splendidly written, acted, and with a great plan that actually works, Zemo got off to a great start. And the best part? He'll be back. 9/10
1:0:0

Pretty darn accurate! Darren Cross/Yellowjacket could have benefited from more development and screen time, but they cut out a couple of scenes and wanted the movie to be under 2 hours.
 
Magneto and Joker are pretty great but they've both had more opportunities to step up to the plate and hit it out of the park. Magneto has been in each of the main X-Men films and stands out as a highlight in the weaker films.
 
Regarding Zemo, people keep saying that the reason MS [BLACKOUT]hasn't killed him is because they plan to bring him back later and flesh him out some more[/BLACKOUT], but I'm not sure about that.

The only reason [BLACKOUT]he survived is because it was needed to complete Black Panther's character arc[/BLACKOUT]. And probably because they wanted to give to [BLACKOUT]"the man who broke the Avengers" the proverbial fate worse than death.[/BLACKOUT]

I really don't think there's [BLACKOUT]anything left to do for him in the MCU. He's served his purpose.[/BLACKOUT]
 
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The Great:

-Loki-This almost isn't fair to the other villains, because we've gotten three movies worth of Loki (with a fourth one on the way) to really flesh out his personality (which is complex). And of course Tom Hiddleston is brilliant in the role.

The Good/Decent:

-Alexander Pierce-Robert Redford brings an element of class/gravitas to all of his roles, and this was no exception. I love how low key he places Pierce, he acts more like the villain in a serious political thriller/conspiracy film than a cackling comic book one. Plus bonus points for being able to convince Robert freaking Redford to say "Hail HYDRA," WOW was that awesome.

-Obadiah Stane/Iron Monger-Jeff Bridges plays him well, his plan is pretty good, and Bridges is so good that he (like Redford) almost make you buy that they're nice guys for much of the film (so it's believable that people would be fooled by them). He only gets knocked points because he turns into a more cackling super-villain giving cliché "evil speeches" during the climax, which was disappointing somewhat.

-Emil Blonsky/Abomination-Tim Roth is really good and the angle that they go with him (old soldier wanting to hang on and becoming addicted to the power that he receives, a drug addict so to speak) was interesting. Plus that fight with Hulk at the end was badass. I'm still hoping that we'll see more of him at some points (especially since they finally brought back ex-General Ross for CW).

-Ultron-Yes, I think that he's underrated. He's not really the Ultron from the comics, but he's interesting nonetheless, and James Spader is great. He's like an angry kid lashing out at "daddy," Tony Stark, and the world, which is an interesting idea at least.

The Meh:

-Ivan Vanko/Whiplash-Mickey Rourke is good, he looks cool, he's got a decent backstory, and they do a pretty good job of building him up as a threat in the first half of the film. But then he spends pretty much the entire second act/into the third stuck in a lab, the focus shifts to the far less interesting Hammer, and then he gets taken out after one of the most underwhelming "final boss" fights ever. Wasted potential.

-Justin Hammer-Sam Rockwell is entertaining, but the character is a joke. The focus should have stayed on Whiplash, the far more interesting character imo.

-Ronan the Accuser-Lee Pace is fun, and I found the idea that, in a movie where pretty much every other character was kind of doing things half tongue-in-cheek, that this guy was super-serious and treated everything that came out of his mouth as the most epic important thing in the history of forever, to be kind of amusing. But he's kind of dull and generic overall, with dull and generic motivations.

-Johann Schmidt/Red Skull-Hugo Weaving is ok, but he doesn't get enough screentime, they don't let him be really evil enough, and Red Skull never really comes across as Cap's archenemy/ideological and philosophical opposite in the film. He feels more like just another baddie that Cap needed to stop, nothing more.

-Helmut Zemo-I found him to be, again, well-acted. But he was a pretty underwhelming villain with underwhelming/generic motivations, and I would have much preferred a more accurate version to the comics (he's both more fun and more interesting there imo).

-Dr. Aldrich Killian-Again generic motivations, and not particular interesting. Stane and Hammer already did most of his schtick, and did it better. And yet again, another "generic white guy scientist/businessman in a suit with a grudge," way to think outside the box there Shane Black. Sir Ben Kingsley was far more menacing and interesting when he was pretending to be the villain than Guy Pearce was when he actually was one. Heck if there needed to be a "twist," then Maya Hansen turning out to be the main villain would have been far more interesting, and unexpected, imo.

The Bad:

-Malekith the Accursed-He's just boring and forgettable in everyway, and a complete wasted of Christopher Eccleston's talents.

-Darren Cross/Yellowjacket-Corey Stoll does his best, but Cross is so generically two-dimensional "evil/crazy," that it's also a waste of a great actor.

NOTE: I'm only counting the main movie villains because, while the TV shows have done a much better job in this area imo, the film division seems loathe to even acknowledge the TV side's existence at all.
 
Regarding Zemo, people keep saying that the reason MS [BLACKOUT]hasn't killed him is because they plan to bring him back later and flesh him out some more[/BLACKOUT], but I'm not sure about that.

The only reason [BLACKOUT]he survived is because it was needed to complete Black Panther's character arc[/BLACKOUT]. And probably because they wanted to give to [BLACKOUT]"the man who broke the Avengers" the proverbial fate worse than death.[/BLACKOUT]

I really don't think there's [BLACKOUT]anything left to do for him in the MCU. He's served his purpose.[/BLACKOUT]

Yeah that's the thing,
People seem to be assuming that he must come back, and form the Masters of Evil. But his motivations were very specific in the film, and he basically won (or got most of what he wanted anyway). And given his attitude towards super-people/teams in the film, it'd take A LOT to make it believable that he'd then turn around and form such a team of his own, let alone of evil people.

And the fact that he tried to kill himself at the end (because he'd gotten what he wanted and felt like he had no further reason to live) and had to be physically stopped from doing so by BP, also doesn't exactly point to him going all "oh I should totally come back and be a baddie some more."

Yeah, his arc is pretty much done by the end of CW. And as for "well he's still alive," well so is Abomination and yet we haven't seen nor heard from him in nearly a decade.
 
Yeah that's the thing,
People seem to be assuming that he must come back, and form the Masters of Evil. But his motivations were very specific in the film, and he basically won (or got most of what he wanted anyway). And given his attitude towards super-people/teams in the film, it'd take A LOT to make it believable that he'd then turn around and form such a team of his own, let alone of evil people.

And the fact that he tried to kill himself at the end (because he'd gotten what he wanted and felt like he had no further reason to live) and had to be physically stopped from doing so by BP, also doesn't exactly point to him going all "oh I should totally come back and be a baddie some more."

Yeah, his arc is pretty much done by the end of CW. And as for "well he's still alive," well so is Abomination and yet we haven't seen nor heard from him in nearly a decade.

Actually I disagree. Indeed he did feel his job was done. He broke apart the Avengers and was ready to commit suicide to avoid feeling the pain he feels for the loss of his family.

However, now that he's going to be locked up and forced to watch as the Avengers rebuild, reunite for a common purpose and bury the hatchet, Zemo should be one of the few people in the world who sees this as a potential danger once again. Personal reasons aside, he must see this as rehashing the exact same scenario that brought about the destruction of Sokovia (and so much more).

Thunderbolts might fit better than Masters, but whatever you call it, he's bound to take another crack at the job he started in this film.
 
The one thing Marvel excels at better than anyone is how they portray their heroes. That sometimes seems to come at the expense of their villains it's true. I think Marvel can certainly improve in the villain department but it's not like we haven't had some great villains and honestly they are no worse or better than any of the other studios ATM.

I easily rate Hiddleston's Loki along with Magneto (both actors) and Ledger's Joker. Kilgrave and Fisk were terrifying and among the best comic book villains I've ever seen. I thought Zemo was excellent too and I suspect we haven't seen the last of him.

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Personally, I also have very high hopes for both Cate Blanchett and Karl Urban in Ragnarok. Supposedly MBJ is playing a villain in Black Panther. Michael Keaton is playing maybe the Vulture but near certainly some kind of baddie in SM: Homecoming. Not to mention Mads Mikkelsen is coming up in Doctor Strange. I think Marvel is learning from their mistakes and all of these casting choices give fans a lot to be excited about. They may not all be home runs like we hope but I would be shocked if none of them deliver another great villain or two.
 
Or he sees the world going to Hell without the Avengers around, and now has time to think about his own screw-ups. See that's the problem, I just don't really think that assuming that he'd automatically react a specific way, makes sense.
 
Or he sees the world going to Hell without the Avengers around, and now has time to think about his own screw-ups. See that's the problem, I just don't really think that assuming that he'd automatically react a specific way, makes sense.

But the original point wasn't that he has to come back, but that the poster you first quoted said that there's nothing left for him to do. There's more than enough for him to get a new drive. That's as far as that goes. Time will tell if they use him or not, and far more than motivation for Zemo play into that. For example which characters get movies after Phase 3 is done.
 
Yeah and I mean, if you're talking about Zemo's potential paths in the future (redemption or retaliation) we know the type of character he is/would continue to be because we know his character in the comics.

If one were to ask, I wonder if Loki is serious about turning over a new leaf (when he sacrifices himself in The Dark World) one need only look at his character in the comics to realize... oh. he's probably just fooling us again.

Zemo is vengeant and unstable because of how he reacted to loss. That's all we know about him. It's very rational to assume he would continue to be that way in the future.
 
Regarding Zemo, people keep saying that the reason MS [BLACKOUT]hasn't killed him is because they plan to bring him back later and flesh him out some more[/BLACKOUT], but I'm not sure about that.

The only reason [BLACKOUT]he survived is because it was needed to complete Black Panther's character arc[/BLACKOUT]. And probably because they wanted to give to [BLACKOUT]"the man who broke the Avengers" the proverbial fate worse than death.[/BLACKOUT]

I really don't think there's [BLACKOUT]anything left to do for him in the MCU. He's served his purpose.[/BLACKOUT]

I believe that it was confirmed by Bruhl himself that Zemo would be returning in a future film.
 
^ Really? I didn't know that. But it could be just for a cameo.

About Zemo. You guys are making good points,
but as Loki882 said, he just doesn't strike to me as a guy who would turn to a life of supervillainy. In CW they kept him grounded for a reason, to make his one-man mission against the Avengers all the more poignant and, in a way, relatable. To suddenly have him don a purple mask and start an evil organization would be very out of character, imho.

Plus, I think at this point Zemo is in the same situation Bane was at the end of the Knightfall arc. There's probably nothing they could do with him that would top what he accomplished in Civil War. He's the dude who successfully broke the freaking Avengers (well, at least for now), where else do you go from there? Kill them? That's what Thanos is for, lol.

I dunno, I guess they could manage to cook up something (gathering the Masters of Evil doesn't sound that bad, if a bit out of character for movie Zemo as I already said) if they try, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm satisfied with him and wouldn't mind not seeing him again.
 
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Loki
Ultron
Pearce
Red Skull
Zemo
Yellowjacket
Stane
Abomination
Killian
Ronan
Malekith
Whiplash
 
If you honestly don't believe that they're a part of the same cinematic universe just because the movies don't reference the events of the shows, then you're being deliberately obtuse.

How am I being obtuse? The actors in the shows themselves are questioning why the movies won't acknowledge them. They haven't and seemingly won't. A couple of them could have easily been in CW, even in a cameo role, but nope they were ignored again. For me until the movies actually acknowledge them, they are not officially in the same universe. And I am not the only person who thinks this way. We all know of the split between Fiege and Perlmutter and the tension that has created. Just because I don't think the sun shines out of Marvels ass like you do doesn't mean I am being obtuse.



I never said that we should stop criticizing the MCU for it. Please go back and re-read what I've been saying because, again, you've missed my point.

Okay, I disagree that it isn't effecting the movies, it effected the quality of TDW, AOU and more with lots of people. They were successful financially, but it's not out of the realms of possibility they can do more with their villains. I don't think the criticism should be re-assessed either, as they could still do much better with their villains.
 
How am I being obtuse? The actors in the shows themselves are questioning why the movies won't acknowledge them. They haven't and seemingly won't. A couple of them could have easily been in CW, even in a cameo role, but nope they were ignored again. For me until the movies actually acknowledge them, they are not officially in the same universe. And I am not the only person who thinks this way. We all know of the split between Fiege and Perlmutter and the tension that has created. Just because I don't think the sun shines out of Marvels ass like you do doesn't mean I am being obtuse.

"For you" they are not officially in the same universe? That isn't even slightly a matter of opinion.
As for how some of the TV characters could have "easily been in CW", well...

Kevin Fiege said:
The schedules do not quite match up to make that possible. Its easier for them, because they are more nimble and faster to produce things, which is one of the reasons you see the repercussions of Winter Soldier or Age of Ultron in the shows. But going forward as there continues to be more shows and casting such great actors as they have, particularly with Daredevil, that may occur. But a lot of it is, by the time we start doing a movie they might be midway through (filming) a season and by the time the movie comes out they’ll be done with their second season and starting a third season. So finding timing on that isn’t always easy.

Okay, I disagree that it isn't effecting the movies, it effected the quality of TDW, AOU and more with lots of people. They were successful financially, but it's not out of the realms of possibility they can do more with their villains. I don't think the criticism should be re-assessed either, as they could still do much better with their villains.

Your continual inability to understand or address my point (that the villain problem with Marvel isn't at all unique to them, and is something that every other studio struggles with) and insistence on making this debate about things I have not said in this discussion (that we should "stop criticizing Marvel" or that the problem "isn't effecting the movies") has made it clear that you just want to disagree. I'm willing to listen if you can offer up a proper rebuttal to anything I've said, but at the moment I'm seriously wondering what your point is.
 
So...the Battle of New York factors directly into Daredevil's plot, but Daredevil isn't in the MCU?
 
Not only Daredevil but there was an entire episode of Jessica Jones that dealt with the aftermath of the first Avengers movie. Agents of SHIELD is constantly referencing the films and in Age of Ultron Fury mentions that he pulled the helicarrier out of mothballs with a "couple of old friends". That was a direct reference to Agents of SHIELD but only those who watch the show would get it. And actually it's better that way. You shouldn't have to watch the show to enjoy the films - and vice versa.
 
I'm reading that and I'm going....

nick-young-confused-face-300x256.png

Kingpin and his cartel use businesses contracted to renovate affected areas as a front for their illegal activities. Kicking off the whole series. Leland says it pretty bluntly.
 
did'nt some chick try to kill jessica jones due to the avengers lol
 
It's funny that although people love hating the X-films, their villains are often better than marvel's even during the not so good films.

Seriously, search your feelings. You'll see it's the truth
 
Regarding the points about Daredevil, I know it makes connections to the movie world, as did JJ. AOS has done it more than those 2 combined also. Yet you get Chloe Bennett coming out complaining the movies won't acknowledge them, and Charlie Cox saying if the character appears in the movies they may re cast the role.

The connection only seems to go to one way, that's why to me, they don't seem to be in the same universe. Funny how the same people always jump to Marvels defence though.
 
"For you" they are not officially in the same universe? That isn't even slightly a matter of opinion.
As for how some of the TV characters could have "easily been in CW", well...





Your continual inability to understand or address my point (that the villain problem with Marvel isn't at all unique to them, and is something that every other studio struggles with) and insistence on making this debate about things I have not said in this discussion (that we should "stop criticizing Marvel" or that the problem "isn't effecting the movies") has made it clear that you just want to disagree. I'm willing to listen if you can offer up a proper rebuttal to anything I've said, but at the moment I'm seriously wondering what your point is.

RE the top paragraph see my above post, but to add to that. Do schedules mean they can't mention the inhuman outbreak in the movies? As well? Powered people are popping up all over the world yet they can't mention it? Nothing to do with schedules that.

Also, are you telling me Tony Stark can notice Spiderman after 6 months. But not notice JJ or DD or even Luke Cage in the same amount or even more time? Could they not show a quick video or picture to say they know of them, like they did Spidey? It's not much but yet they just won't do it.

As for your bottom paragraph, you said because other studios do bad villains the 'tired' criticism of Marvel doing them should be re-assessed. I disagree as Marvel still do them.
 
It's funny that although people love hating the X-films, their villains are often better than marvel's even during the not so good films.

Seriously, search your feelings. You'll see it's the truth

You mean Magneto right? Because apart from him the rest have been okay to forgettable. I could slip in Stryker in X-2 but Magneto ended up being the main threat in that movie. The less said about Apocalypse the better.

But I'm sure some here will defend him because "He was physically stronger than the heroes or he was menacing". We'll see.
 
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