Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[cleverusername8]

RE the top paragraph see my above post, but to add to that. Do schedules mean they can't mention the inhuman outbreak in the movies? As well? Powered people are popping up all over the world yet they can't mention it? Nothing to do with schedules that.

Also, are you telling me Tony Stark can notice Spiderman after 6 months. But not notice JJ or DD or even Luke Cage in the same amount or even more time? Could they not show a quick video or picture to say they know of them, like they did Spidey? It's not much but yet they just won't do it.

As for your bottom paragraph, you said because other studios do bad villains the 'tired' criticism of Marvel doing them should be re-assessed. I disagree as Marvel still do them.

It probably would have made very good sense to mention the Inhumans in Civil War at the introduction of the Sokovia Accords. The ripple effects of their (Inhumans) presence would undoubtedly be an issue for the council in charge of Tony's Avengers' deployment to worry about for means of recruitment or pacification if they get out of hand.

On the flip side, JJ and Luke Cage seem to have been working to keep a low profile. None of the things that either has done in JJ Season 1 was as highly visible as stopping a fast moving car from hitting a bus. They could easily slip past Tony's gaze.

Daredevil should probably be on Tony's radar since word of "the devil of Hell's Kitchen" has made it around enough. However, to Tony, he probably looks like a normal dude who is just really good at fighting the small potatoes: gangsters and dudes on the streets. For confronting Cap, he'd need serious firepower that DD, as far as he knows, doesn't have. Lastly, DD's ideology might not match up to Tony's cause. I wouldn't see someone like Matt who works outside of the law 100% of the time agreeing with the Accords. For that reason, it would make sense to leave him out of CW.

 

[Flint Marko]

RE the top paragraph see my above post, but to add to that. Do schedules mean they can't mention the inhuman outbreak in the movies? As well? Powered people are popping up all over the world yet they can't mention it? Nothing to do with schedules that.

Also, are you telling me Tony Stark can notice Spiderman after 6 months. But not notice JJ or DD or even Luke Cage in the same amount or even more time? Could they not show a quick video or picture to say they know of them, like they did Spidey? It's not much but yet they just won't do it.

I don't care what more you have to say on the matter. If you honestly think that the movie and TV universes are separate, you're wrong, and not worth debating.

As for your bottom paragraph, you said because other studios do bad villains the 'tired' criticism of Marvel doing them should be re-assessed. I disagree as Marvel still do them.

You have, astoundingly, not yet addressed my points or given any sort of proper response. You just keep disagreeing with me by pointing fingers in Marvel's direction, which, for probably the sixth time, is not my point and is not something I disagree with. I'm done with this. Have fun repeating yourself.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

It probably would have made very good sense to mention the Inhumans in Civil War at the introduction of the Sokovia Accords. The ripple effects of their (Inhumans) presence would undoubtedly be an issue for the council in charge of Tony's Avengers' deployment to worry about for means of recruitment or pacification if they get out of hand.

On the flip side, JJ and Luke Cage seem to have been working to keep a low profile. None of the things that either has done in JJ Season 1 was as highly visible as stopping a fast moving car from hitting a bus. They could easily slip past Tony's gaze.

Daredevil should probably be on Tony's radar since word of "the devil of Hell's Kitchen" has made it around enough. However, to Tony, he probably looks like a normal dude who is just really good at fighting the small potatoes: gangsters and dudes on the streets. For confronting Cap, he'd need serious firepower that DD, as far as he knows, doesn't have. Lastly, DD's ideology might not match up to Tony's cause. I wouldn't see someone like Matt who works outside of the law 100% of the time agreeing with the Accords. For that reason, it would make sense to leave him out of CW.

Some very good points.

The Inhumans thing does seem to be getting a little tricky. However, the Sokovia Accords do refer to enhanced individuals. Why wouldn't any Inhumans running about be included in that? I don't see the need to explicitly name drop them. Again people watching the movies shouldn't feel like they have to "do their homework" and go watch a TV show to understand what a movie is talking about. Not saying they can't be worked in better somehow but I prefer how AOU did it with the helicarrier by providing a discreet nod to fans that shows things are indeed connected but not hitting you over the head with it.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Charlie Cox saying if the character appears in the movies they may re cast the role.

Did he really say that? Maybe he's just playing coy. I would be very surprised if Marvel ever did something like that. That would be a huge mistake IMO and would shatter the idea of a shared universe. Cox is not only perfect as Matt Murdock, he can totally carry a feature film by himself. He's done it before with Stardust.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

You mean Magneto right? Because apart from him the rest have been okay to forgettable. I could slip in Stryker in X-2 but Magneto ended up being the main threat in that movie. The less said about Apocalypse the better.

But I'm sure some here will defend him because "He was physically stronger than the heroes or he was menacing". We'll see.

It is remarkable that two different actors have portrayed Magneto so well. So well in fact that Fox relies on that character's villainy for every single X-Men movie they've made. I believe that Magneto has been the main villain in the same number of movies as Lex Luthor and the Joker combined.

 

[Iron_Stark]

It probably would have made very good sense to mention the Inhumans in Civil War at the introduction of the Sokovia Accords. The ripple effects of their (Inhumans) presence would undoubtedly be an issue for the council in charge of Tony's Avengers' deployment to worry about for means of recruitment or pacification if they get out of hand.

On the flip side, JJ and Luke Cage seem to have been working to keep a low profile. None of the things that either has done in JJ Season 1 was as highly visible as stopping a fast moving car from hitting a bus. They could easily slip past Tony's gaze.

Daredevil should probably be on Tony's radar since word of "the devil of Hell's Kitchen" has made it around enough. However, to Tony, he probably looks like a normal dude who is just really good at fighting the small potatoes: gangsters and dudes on the streets. For confronting Cap, he'd need serious firepower that DD, as far as he knows, doesn't have. Lastly, DD's ideology might not match up to Tony's cause. I wouldn't see someone like Matt who works outside of the law 100% of the time agreeing with the Accords. For that reason, it would make sense to leave him out of CW.

Marvel wanted to introduce Spider-Man into the MCU as quickly as possible and they worked it in that Tony just needed someone to tie Captain America up. It's as simple as that.

(not directed at you) I don't know why fans can't seem to understand that and why they keep asking why Tony would bring a 15 year old teenager to a fight. He didn't know how old he is, except that he's young and he knew if it did come to blows Cap and co wouldn't be there to kill. Except ofcourse Cap almost did kill Spider-Man when he dropped that platform on him without even knowing if Spider-Man had super strength. Which was yet another dick move by Cap.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't care what more you have to say on the matter. If you honestly think that the movie and TV universes are separate, you're wrong, and not worth debating.



You have, astoundingly, not yet addressed my points or given any sort of proper response. You just keep disagreeing with me by pointing fingers in Marvel's direction, which, for probably the sixth time, is not my point and is not something I disagree with. I'm done with this. Have fun repeating yourself.

Regarding the TV shows

Well, now you are the one ignoring points. Just because Marvel says something is connected doesn't mean they make a conscience effort to do so on the movie side. The fact other fans and even the actors themselves make this complaint shows its not all as cutand dry as you make it out.

As for your points, your words were its a tired criticism that needs to be re-assessed, and I totally disagree. You also said it's not holding Marvel back in any major way, financially I would agree, but some of the movies have suffered from it quality wise. But yeah, I said a bad word about Marvel and I see some fans on here take it as a personal insult . Maybe make your point a bit clearer next time.

Did he really say that? Maybe he's just playing coy. I would be very surprised if Marvel ever did something like that. That would be a huge mistake IMO and would shatter the idea of a shared universe. Cox is not only perfect as Matt Murdock, he can totally carry a feature film by himself. He's done it before with Stardust.

He did indeed. And i agree it would be a huge mistake. Its also why I dont think the TV shows are as connected as some make out. Chloe Bennett coming out and openly criticising the films division for that reason is another. Not to mention many fans agree with her. Joss Whedon also openly said when making AOU he didn't follow the continuity of AOS when making the movie. It seems the connections only go one way.

But you know, I am plain wrong apparently because I don't believe everything studio heads tell me.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

He did indeed. And i agree it would be a huge mistake. Its also why I dont think the TV shows are as connected as some make out. Chloe Bennett coming out and openly criticising the films division for that reason is another. Not to mention many fans agree with her. It seems the connections only go one way.

But you know, I am plain wrong apparently because I don't believe everything studio heads tell me.

Well to me all this is just behind-the-scenes drama. Hopefully it doesn't affect the finished product. So far I'm cool with how things have played out. I don't believe Marvel will recast Cox. If so I would be incredibly disappointed.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Marvel wanted to introduce Spider-Man into the MCU as quickly as possible and they worked it in that Tony just needed someone to tie Captain America up. It's as simple as that.

(not directed at you) I don't know why fans can't seem to understand that and why they keep asking why Tony would bring a 15 year old teenager to a fight. He didn't know how old he is, except that he's young and he knew if it did come to blows Cap and co wouldn't be there to kill. Except ofcourse Cap almost did kill Spider-Man when he dropped that platform on him without even knowing if Spider-Man had super strength. Which was yet another dick move by Cap.

"He didn't know old he was" lol

You kinda just have to go with it, right? Kinda like the Batman and Robin thing I suppose...

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well to me all this is just behind-the-scenes drama. Hopefully it doesn't affect the finished product. So far I'm cool with how things have played out. I don't believe Marvel will recast Cox. If so I would be incredibly disappointed.

Same here, I think Cox is awesome in the role and would be very disappointed. If a cameo isn't possible though i don't see why an Easter egg or 2 can't be thrown into the movies.

"He didn't know old he was" lol

You kinda just have to go with it, right? Kinda like the Batman and Robin thing I suppose...

Yeah, he quite clearly knew how old he was.

 

[Flint Marko]

But yeah, I said a bad word about Marvel and I see some fans on here take it as a personal insult .

This is your third attempt at resorting to ad hominem attacks. If it weren't apparent how paper-thin your argument was before, it's crystal clear now.

Maybe make your point a bit clearer next time.

I repeated myself about five times. It's not my fault you had trouble understanding.

 

[TeeKay]

Lol who took things here as a personal insult? I'm really curious.

 

[Mjölnir]

Regarding the points about Daredevil, I know it makes connections to the movie world, as did JJ. AOS has done it more than those 2 combined also. Yet you get Chloe Bennett coming out complaining the movies won't acknowledge them, and Charlie Cox saying if the character appears in the movies they may re cast the role.

The connection only seems to go to one way, that's why to me, they don't seem to be in the same universe. Funny how the same people always jump to Marvels defence though.

That it can't be the same universe because one side clearly says that they are, and the other doesn't say anything either way, is about the same as saying that I don't exist in the same universe as The Rock because I know about him but he doesn't know about me.

In order to have a case that they don't belong to the same universe both sides need to ignore each other.

 

[Iron_Stark]

"He didn't know old he was" lol

You kinda just have to go with it, right? Kinda like the Batman and Robin thing I suppose...

What Batman & Robin thing?

Same here, I think Cox is awesome in the role and would be very disappointed. If a cameo isn't possible though i don't see why an Easter egg or 2 can't be thrown into the movies.


Yeah, he quite clearly knew how old he was.

I must have missed it, but where exactly did he know his age? He all he knew he was a teen and in high school. That's not knowing someone's age.

Also the Star Wars reference, Tony told Rhodey he didn't know how old he was, he "didn't carbon date him"

 

[MichaelChen]

Also, are you telling me Tony Stark can notice Spiderman after 6 months. But not notice JJ or DD or even Luke Cage in the same amount or even more time?

Jessica Jones mostly just takes pictures of cheating wives/husbands. Occasionally she supplements this with a bit of super-strength, but we're still talking about someone who can go a year at a time without doing anything overtly metahuman. Cage is a bar-owner. He might occasionally use a bit of super-strength to stop a rowdy drunk, but again we're talking about someone who can easily go a year at a stretch with doing anything overtly super. Meanwhile Spider-Man is Tarzaning around and openly stopping crime in a colorful costume.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Jessica Jones mostly just takes pictures of cheating wives/husbands. Occasionally she supplements this with a bit of super-strength, but we're still talking about someone who can go a year at a time without doing anything overtly metahuman. Cage is a bar-owner. He might occasionally use a bit of super-strength to stop a rowdy drunk, but again we're talking about someone who can easily go a year at a stretch with doing anything overtly super. Meanwhile Spider-Man is Tarzaning around and openly stopping crime in a colorful costume.

And Daredevil doesn't even have powers that anyone knows about.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

This is your third attempt at resorting to ad hominem attacks. If it weren't apparent how paper-thin your argument was before, it's crystal clear now.



I repeated myself about five times. It's not my fault you had trouble understanding.

Well next time don't get your knickers in a twist and make things more clear from the offset. I have replied several times now to the exact words you put in your post.

Listen. This has gone too far and I apologise, but as soon as I tried to rebuke what you posted, you went straight on the defensive which didn't exactly help your point.

That it can't be the same universe because one side clearly says that they are, and the other doesn't say anything either way, is about the same as saying that I don't exist in the same universe as The Rock because I know about him but he doesn't know about me.

In order to have a case that they don't belong to the same universe both sides need to ignore each other.

Sorry but your analogy falls flat. Rock doesn't need to or have to know about you. But you would think at the very least the Avengers would know about and acknowledge new and confused powered people showing up every day and putting others in danger.

What Batman & Robin thing?




I must have missed it, but where exactly did he know his age? He all he knew he was a teen and in high school. That's not knowing someone's age.

Also the Star Wars reference, Tony told Rhodey he didn't know how old he was, he "didn't carbon date him"

Maybe he didn't know exact age. But he even could have got that off Aunt May. He still asked a school kid to join a fight and knew what he was getting him into.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Lol who took things here as a personal insult? I'm really curious.

Wasn't being literal but it does seem there are posters on these boards who will defend and try to argue about even the slightest criticisms people make about MCU movies. It's like you have called their family bad names at times and it gets right on my nerves. Especially when the same posters are happy to heavily criticise movies from other studios. The movies aren't perfect and do have problems with them. You are fine when you are praising though funnily enough.

 

[Flint Marko]

Well next time don't get your knickers in a twist and make things more clear from the offset. I have replied several times now to the exact words you put in your post.

Listen. This has gone too far and I apologise, but as soon as I tried to rebuke what you posted, you went straight on the defensive which didn't exactly help your point.

You've always been a reasonable poster, Jamon. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding or any unnecessary aggression on my part. We can just chalk this up to a misunderstanding.
I do think it's safe to say that the MCU has garnered a very loyal subsection of fandom, of which I'm very much a part of. But I don't know that I'd consider myself completely closed off to any slight criticism. As a matter of fact I just finished reading one of the best criticisms of the MCU today by Film Crit Hulk, I'd highly recommend it to anyone as a fantastic analysis of Phase 2's shortcomings even though I don't necessarily agree with 100% of it.

 

[Mjölnir]

Sorry but your analogy falls flat. Rock doesn't need to or have to know about you. But you would think at the very least the Avengers would know about and acknowledge new and confused powered people showing up every day and putting others in danger.

No, there's no need for it. It could happen but that's not the definition of "need".

Daredevil, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are all probably unknown in that regard. Daredevil seems to be the only guy that's known to the public and he does nothing that really indicates that he has a super power.

The Avengers have already made statements about new enhanced people showing up. When they encounter the twins Cap calls it in a way that says it's nothing new to them, and Vision speaks about how many people with powers there have popped up since Iron Man made himself known in Civil War. Ergo nothing that contradicts the existence of the ones in other shows (unless something in latter season 3 of AoS does that, which is of course possible and I haven't watched that far yet), and nothing requires them to interact with them as the hidden SHIELD and their opponents are probably a lot better at hiding than Peter Parker. Not to mention that it's standard comic book stuff that all heroes doesn't get involved with every conflict, as otherwise we wouldn't have solo comics and/or movies.

On top of that we of course have Marvel themselves saying that it's all combined, so all that I wrote is of course a bit unnecessary since that's a clear and direct answer to the dilemma. Whether the do the absolute most of it is a different matter, as is the question on whether the connectivity will go on forever.

 

[Zarex]

I was expecting to be annoyed by the fact that the Inhuman outbreak from AOS would not be part of the Accords, but none of the actions in CA:CW contradicted what happened in the series. The increase in enhanced individuals was raised and the meeting with Ross was based on the Avengers acting as a US based paramilitary group operating without government supervision. The topic of fish oil based superhuman abilities could very well have been buried in Subsection G, line 47.

I've said this before, but its best to think of Marvel TV and films as "Not Contradictory" instead of "All Connected".

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

You've always been a reasonable poster, Jamon. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding or any unnecessary aggression on my part. We can just chalk this up to a misunderstanding.
I do think it's safe to say that the MCU has garnered a very loyal subsection of fandom, of which I'm very much a part of. But I don't know that I'd consider myself completely closed off to any slight criticism. As a matter of fact I just finished reading one of the best criticisms of the MCU today by Film Crit Hulk, I'd highly recommend it to anyone as a fantastic analysis of Phase 2's shortcomings even though I don't necessarily agree with 100% of it.

You are a reasonable poster yourself Flint, I think a misunderstanding was all it was in the end, I must have read it a different way than intended, let's just move on .

 

[SirStrangefolk]

It is remarkable that two different actors have portrayed Magneto so well. So well in fact that Fox relies on that character's villainy for every single X-Men movie they've made. I believe that Magneto has been the main villain in the same number of movies as Lex Luthor and the Joker combined.

That's debatable, depending on your definition of "main" villain. I mean, it's true for the first movie, but for the others you could say it goes to Stryker, Phoenix, Shaw, Trask and Apocalypse.

 

[OcStat]

Spider-Man was more useful than the Netflix heroes would have been in the upcoming conflict Spidey was recruited for. Simple as that.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No, there's no need for it. It could happen but that's not the definition of "need".

Daredevil, Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are all probably unknown in that regard. Daredevil seems to be the only guy that's known to the public and he does nothing that really indicates that he has a super power.

The Avengers have already made statements about new enhanced people showing up. When they encounter the twins Cap calls it in a way that says it's nothing new to them, and Vision speaks about how many people with powers there have popped up since Iron Man made himself known in Civil War. Ergo nothing that contradicts the existence of the ones in other shows (unless something in latter season 3 of AoS does that, which is of course possible and I haven't watched that far yet), and nothing requires them to interact with them as the hidden SHIELD and their opponents are probably a lot better at hiding than Peter Parker. Not to mention that it's standard comic book stuff that all heroes doesn't get involved with every conflict, as otherwise we wouldn't have solo comics and/or movies.

On top of that we of course have Marvel themselves saying that it's all combined, so all that I wrote is of course a bit unnecessary since that's a clear and direct answer to the dilemma. Whether the do the absolute most of it is a different matter, as is the question on whether the connectivity will go on forever.

Well, this is just a difference of opinion. I think there is need of it, maybe not completely with the Netflix shows, though I think Kilgrave wouldn't go unnoticed for so long, but definitely with AOS. Why would Coulson keep his resurrection hidden for so long? And Quake and Deathlok were more battle ready than Spiderman was in CW, why not at least mention recruiting them?

Regarding Cap talking about powered people in AOU. Unknowing inhuman people didn't start showing up in AOS until season 3, which began months after AOU came out, so that point doesn't sync I am afraid.

Also an inhuman outbreak in AOS is a big enough deal for the President to be involved, but not the Avengers. Yeah, not having it.