Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Flint Marko]

As long as Marvel is the top dog, we're going to be hearing this.

 

[The Overlord]

I hope they don't. Holland really seemed to be pushing how awesome Vulture is in a couple interviews at SDCC, so that leaves me a little more hopeful. It really just comes down to, like you said, not leaving the scenes developing him on the cutting floor and actually allowing them to have a little bit of the spotlight.

Is Vulture a great villain in the comics? He always seemed like a C-list Spider-Man villain to me, who became redundant when Gobby appeared. His gimmick is pretty lame, he flies, how many characters in Marvel fly and do a million other things?

 

[Snaaaaake!]

Falcon isn't vulture though. Vulture is a savvy and far more resourceful mo'fo with sinister motivations and won't hesitate to murder spider-man.

It's sounding like Vultures suit will be a lot more tech savvy and have a ton more weapons. Vulture will also be out to kill, Falcon wasn't.

Wait, Falcon wasn't shooting at Spider-man in CW? In any case I'm hoping they make a Vulture who takes things a few notches above the recent Archangel at least. Toomes is clearly smarter and more resilient than Archangel and Falcon on paper but I don't recall Vulture ever having any standout powers or gadgets.

So,after Lex,Doomsday,Apocalypse and its Horsemen and SS villain,not to say Doom 2015,Electro,Green Goblin,Rhino etc. can we stop pretending this is just Marvel's problem and rename the thread:"Do CBMs have a villains problem?"?

This!!!!

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As long as Marvel is the top dog, we're going to be hearing this.

I think Loki hit the nail on the head a page or 2 back though. Marvel gets so much right it's frustrating that they can't seem to get their villains right for the most part in the movies. There is only Loki in the movies who is above average IMO.

And while I disagree on Apocalypse and Magneto as one of his horseman, as I thought they were both great. I do agree other CBMs seem to be having issues with their villains at the moment.

 

[Lord]

The sad thing about Loki is that even though he's a great character, he's not very threatening as a villain. Only Netflix's shows seem to be hitting on the right marks, with two incredibly memorable villains so far.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The sad thing about Loki is that even though he's a great character, he's not very threatening as a villain. Only Netflix's shows seem to be hitting on the right marks, with two incredibly memorable villains so far.

Kingpin and even more so Kilgrave were indeed awesome. And I don't think TS simply because they have more time to be developed.

I thought Loki was more interesting in Thor than Avenegrs personally.

 

[Mjölnir]

Is Vulture a great villain in the comics? He always seemed like a C-list Spider-Man villain to me, who became redundant when Gobby appeared. His gimmick is pretty lame, he flies, how many characters in Marvel fly and do a million other things?

Your post reminds me of this t:

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[Kahran Ramsus]

Kingpin and even more so Kilgrave were indeed awesome. And I don't think TS simply because they have more time to be developed.

I thought Loki was more interesting in Thor than Avenegrs personally.

TDW had my favorite Loki. He's a lying, manipulative opportunist who likes to play two powerful sides off each other to further his own standing. He's not really supposed to seem scary or threatening. He's not Ramsay Bolton. He's more like Littlefinger. He was good in Thor too, but I felt he was too obvious and open with his schemes there. The way he used his feelings towards his mother to fake his death and take over Asgard without anybody knowing was more effective.

I definitely think Loki was less interesting in The Avengers than in the Thor films.

 

[Web-Head]

They're going to take some liberties with Vulture, that's for sure. But I think it'll be for the best and I know we'll get a great performance out of Keaton. It all just depends on whether or not they give him enough to do and enough screentime.

I think one thing Marvel could do for certain films is add another 10-15 minutes dedicated to the villains. That could help out tremendously, imo.

 

[Mike Murdock]

TDW had my favorite Loki. He's a lying, manipulative opportunist who likes to play two powerful sides off each other to further his own standing. He's not really supposed to seem scary or threatening. He's not Ramsay Bolton. He's more like Littlefinger. He was good in Thor too, but I felt he was too obvious and open with his schemes there. The way he used his feelings towards his mother to fake his death and take over Asgard without anybody knowing was more effective.

I definitely think Loki was less interesting in The Avengers than in the Thor films.

To me, TDW is when he finally shined (although the Whedon dialogue in Avengers was nice). I think that reinforces the point that the villains do better when they get more time devoted to them (hence why the Netflix ones do well).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

To me, TDW is when he finally shined (although the Whedon dialogue in Avengers was nice). I think that reinforces the point that the villains do better when they get more time devoted to them (hence why the Netflix ones do well).

For the most part. I think the exception is Zemo, whom I liked a lot and would like to see more of in the future, but I think much more screentime would have done the film a desservice and taken the focus too much off the Iron Man/Captain America conflict.

Of course, it is arguable that Iron Man is the real main antagonist and I think he was the best character in the movie.

 

[Guard82]

Is Vulture a great villain in the comics? He always seemed like a C-list Spider-Man villain to me, who became redundant when Gobby appeared. His gimmick is pretty lame, he flies, how many characters in Marvel fly and do a million other things?

When the Vulture is written well, he can actually be quite an interesting and compelling villain. His comic-book origin story about how he was swindled out of his business and his inventions is pretty compelling, and so is his anxiety about his old age. All this could be used very effectively in a film adaptation. Plus, the fact that he's a scientist means they can give him additional tech and weapons to add more excitement to his fight scenes.

 

[TheVileOne]

Honestly, I thought Vulture was one of the cooler filler villains for the 2002 Spider-Man movie game.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I don't wanna hear about the MCU villain problem after BvS and Suicide Squad...that's for sure.

I don't want to see any more INOs at all, from Marvel or DC. I thought the outrage over the Mandarin had taught Marvel Studios their lesson, but they did it again with Zemo in CW. If a certain villain doesn't fit their current creative direction, use one who does instead of haphazardly throwing names around.

 

[Lantern Venom]

^I'm gonna need to see her do some damage with that before I take her seriously.

That's what I wanted from Ronan. I would've loved to see him come close to actually killing Thanos with his gem.

That's a good point. I thought Ronan was well done overall, but I wish he hadn't seemed like such a beta around Thanos. I noticed on the GotG cartoon, Thanos recently reappeared and Ronan was instantly terrified despite wielding the Cosmic Seed.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't want to see any more INOs at all, from Marvel or DC. I thought the outrage over the Mandarin had taught Marvel Studios their lesson, but they did it again with Zemo in CW. If a certain villain doesn't fit their current creative direction, use one who does instead of haphazardly throwing names around.

I still don't think a true to the comics Mandarin would worked as a movie villain in 2013, when the Chinese market is so important and anything remotely offensive to Chinese people would get your film banned. Marvel was not going to risk entry to the Chinese film market to please the few Mandarin fanboys that exist.

When the Vulture is written well, he can actually be quite an interesting and compelling villain. His comic-book origin story about how he was swindled out of his business and his inventions is pretty compelling, and so is his anxiety about his old age. All this could be used very effectively in a film adaptation. Plus, the fact that he's a scientist means they can give him additional tech and weapons to add more excitement to his fight scenes.

I'm not sure any of that by itself is compelling enough to carry a 2 hour film that has to build to a climax.

In the comics the Vulture has his moments, but that's all they are, moments, they never build to anything, it doesn't seem he has really progressed as a character since his introduction.

In one story, Vulture has a sick grandson, he is never mentioned again. In a mini series, Vulture had a daughter in SHIELD he wanted to protect, never mentioned again. Heck how often is his origin of being screwed by his business partner mentioned past its initial introduction? Vulture has the occasional moment, but often he gets reduced to being another greedy thug and has plans that are about as creative as the Rhino's in his lesser moments.

If Vulture is so smart, he should come up with better plans then "rob banks".

I think Vulture needs a serious upgrade to be the Big Bad of a film and to make formidable you have to do more then have him steal Green Goblin's gimmicks, if Vulture feels like proto Green Goblin, he will seem pretty lame.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I still don't think a true to the comics Mandarin would worked as a movie villain in 2013, when the Chinese market is so important and anything remotely offensive to Chinese people would get your film banned. Marvel was not going to risk entry to the Chinese film market to please the few Mandarin fanboys that exist.


.

Mandarin is a huge part of Iron Man's mythos, so there are more than just a few fans. Moreover, Sony made a successful film with an Asian villain by making it clear that he was ungrateful and self-serving, not because of a national viewpoint. Marvel could have easily done something similar.Thus, I can't buy either of those arguments.

I also don't have a problem, nor should anyone else, with original villains in films. That's actually more respectful than empty lip service like we got with Zemo. Marvel Studios was fearless in Phase 1. They gave us very different, compelling villains. Yet in the last 3 years, we've seen two high-profile villains from the comics reduced to weak plot devices. There's no need to wuss out like that.

 

[The Overlord]

Mandarin is a huge part of Iron Man's mythos, so there are more than just a few fans. Moreover, Sony made a successful film with an Asian villain by making it clear that he was ungrateful and self-serving, not because of a national viewpoint. Marvel could have easily done something similar.Thus, I can't buy either of those arguments.

Which Sony movie are you talking about? Because China did ban of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies for being offensive, Marvel is not going to try to push their luck with that.

How many great stories has Mandarin really had? There was only one mandarin story I really liked and that was ignored by the next writer who wrote him as some pompous Kin Jong Un style oaf and even in the one story I liked with Mandarin, the writer was borrowing a lot from Ra's Al Ghul.

Really it seems like Mandarin's role as arch nemesis was handed to Mandarin because he was the least lame Silver Age villain, but from his creation, he seemed more like a collection of cliches rather then a true character and really he was never as dynamic as Doom or Magneto, he was more of archetype then a character, besides a few rare moments.

I also don't have a problem, nor should anyone else, with original villains in films. That's actually more respectful than empty lip service like we got with Zemo. Marvel Studios was fearless in Phase 1. They gave us very different, compelling villains. Yet in the last 3 years, we've seen two high-profile villains from the comics reduced to weak plot devices. There's no need to wuss out like that.

I actually didn't mind the changes they made with Zemo, Cap needed another Nazi villain like he needed a hole in the head and Zemo wanting revenge for something recent and connected with Civil War is more compelling then him trying to avenge his dead Nazi dad who died decades ago. Zemo's initial motives were always more personal then political, so I liked getting rid of some his historical baggage and trying to link him to WW2 and come up with excuses to keep him 30 years old. Really the more epic, non political elements, like Zemo deciding he wants to take over the world to make it better, can be added, Zemo as a sympathetic villain works best without the Nazi baggage anyway.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Which Sony movie are you talking about? Because China did ban of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies for being offensive, Marvel is not going to try to push their luck with that.

How many great stories has Mandarin really had? There was only one mandarin story I really liked and that was ignored by the next writer who wrote him as some pompous Kin Jong Un style oaf and even in the one story I liked with Mandarin, the writer was borrowing a lot from Ra's Al Ghul.
.

Sorry, I misspoke, I meant Fox, and I was speaking specifically about the Wolverine. That was a great template for making a film about a personal issue rather than a clash of cultures.

I also have never bought any part of the "I don't think character X is that great, so it's OK to change him or her." Iron Man's solo comics have never been among my favorites, but it's easy for me to see why Mandarin is universally considered IM's archenemy. He's Stark's opposite (at least in the original version) in that he's lost all of his monetary advantages rather than building on his dad's work like Tony. He's Tony's physical superior due to his MA training and his rings surpass any Earth tech, including the Iron Man armors. It would have been wonderful to see Tony clash with a guy who could easily dispatch him hand-to-hand and in possession of alien tech that Tony wouldn't have understood. More importantly, the hardcore IM readers wouldn't have lost such an integral part of their character's mythos.

 

[The Overlord]

Sorry, I misspoke, I meant Fox, and I was speaking specifically about the Wolverine. That was a great template for making a film about a personal issue rather than a clash of cultures.

That's Japanese, the Chinese government is far more touchy and can deny access if it thinks the movie is offensive to Chinese sensibilities.

This movie was co produced with China, a true to the comics Mandarin would be an impossible sell.

His name is the Mandarin for god's sake, that is among the most stereotypical Chinese villain names you could have given a character.

I also have never bought any part of the "I don't think character X is that great, so it's OK to change him or her." Iron Man's solo comics have never been among my favorites, but it's easy for me to see why Mandarin is universally considered IM's archenemy. He's Stark's opposite (at least in the original version) in that he's lost all of his monetary advantages rather than building on his dad's work like Tony. He's Tony's physical superior due to his MA training and his rings surpass any Earth tech, including the Iron Man armors. It would have been wonderful to see Tony clash with a guy who could easily dispatch him hand-to-hand and in possession of alien tech that Tony wouldn't have understood. More importantly, the hardcore IM readers wouldn't have lost such an integral part of their character's mythos.

You are describing an archetype, not a character, none of that is interesting character stuff.

Even Mandarin's rivalry comes off as racist, Iron Man represents Western enlightenment and technological progress, while Mandarin represents backwards, evil, Eastern superstition and savagery.

Mandarin is all surface, the deeper character stuff changes writer to writer, the Mandarin Knauf wrote is not the Mandarin Fraction wrote, they are two different guys.

Mandarin often comes off as a one dimensional archetype villain, an evil for evil's sake villain, who hates Iron Man for not very well defined reasons and really is just a bunch of surface stuff, rather then someone with truly rich characterization.

Now I thought Killian was pretty generic villain and Iron Man 3 was just an okay movie, though Trevor was pretty funny, maybe some version of the Mandarin could have worked (I was sick of corporate bad guys and thought it would have been cool to see a true globe spanning adventure) but Mandarin would have needed a lot of changes to work in this day and age.

Really Ra's Al Ghul is an Arab villain, but he feels far less stereotypical, because his motives are not connected with his background and he has an actually ideology that I could see attracting supporters, rather then Mandarin's evil for evil's sake BS.

 

[First Avenger]

TDW had my favorite Loki. He's a lying, manipulative opportunist who likes to play two powerful sides off each other to further his own standing. He's not really supposed to seem scary or threatening. He's not Ramsay Bolton. He's more like Littlefinger. He was good in Thor too, but I felt he was too obvious and open with his schemes there. The way he used his feelings towards his mother to fake his death and take over Asgard without anybody knowing was more effective.

I definitely think Loki was less interesting in The Avengers than in the Thor films.

Loki is one of the reason I still consider TDW an above average CBM. I think it has so far my favourite movie version of both him and Thor(I love him in all 4 movies though).

 

[The Endless]

Tbh... doesn't everyone have a problem with villains?

I mean people specifically criticise Marvel but about from Joker and Magneto... what other good villains are there?

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

Apocalypse was a huge disappointment and magneto was more of the same and thoroughly uninteresting. Angel and psylocke don't even count. Lex, doomsday and enchantress were horribad. Francis was ok I guess. Zemo's the best villain so far if you ask me.

 

[The Endless]

Francis is kinda underrated. He's thinly written but played well. He was a threat because the story was smaller and more personal. You could feel the hate between him and DP.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Francis was a whole lot of nothing. Just a body for Deadpool to hate and humiliate. He had no real character of his own. Even Apocalypse was better.