Does Marvel have a problem with their villains?

[Mjölnir]

I would argue that everytime the Joker seemed more interesting than Batman on screen, it was due to Batman himself being watered down while the Joker was shown in his full might and glory. Neither Burton or Nolan have shown the character's full mental/physical potential. But whenever someone does, neither actor seems to overshadow the other one. Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill are arguably the perfect example of this.

I agree that Batman wasn't what he's been in the comics, and I do think he was used worse in TDK than in Begins as a protagonist. Despite what I think of Snyder as a director I am interested in seeing what they'll do with Batman next year since on paper it seems like the most Batman-like character.

 

[The Joker]

Back in 2008, nobody was saying that TDK is a bad film because the Joker stole the show. It's a retroactive criticism, to reverse the critique that the MCU films have weak villains. It's a very lawyer-y type criticism.

It's probably because Joker stole the show through an amazing performance, rather than dominating the screen time and story. It was about quality not quantity. Which ideally is what you want. A quality villain who can leave a great impression without having to hog the spotlight for the movie.

The problem with most Marvel villains is they don't do that no matter how much screen time they have.

Yeah, I'd argue Burton's Batman films have a problem where Batman isn't all that interesting due to the focus on the villains.

Most definitely.

 

[Golgo-13]

The Red Skull has been the only MCU villan thus far that had any sort of substance (other than Loki), which is why i'm sad there are no plans to bring him back, nor that Weaving does not want to reprise the role..

 

[marvellover]

If Marvel somehow manages to turn one of the most iconic and threatening Avengers villain in comics into a jokey shiny robot that literally achieve nothing to destroy the world or kill the Avengers and got pwned in less than 1 minute of final battle(excluding his lame paper drones fight),that is clearly saying something
Like someone said,I got more feeling in Antony's death than QS

One of the biggest flaw of AOU is Ultron
His personality sucks and downright embarrassing with all his fights and lame plans in the movie

The only "good" villains from MCU movies so far are Loki and Alexander Pierce
The rest are forgettable or just right awful
They are like other studios that put 2-3 good villains but they don't have their Joker,Magneto(both old and young ones)

Even though they aren't exactly better and lack interesting personality,I enjoy watching Ronan,Malekith,Killian,Yellowjacket more than Ultron
At least they are actually more threatening

 

[DACrowe]

I agree that Batman wasn't what he's been in the comics, and I do think he was used worse in TDK than in Begins as a protagonist. Despite what I think of Snyder as a director I am interested in seeing what they'll do with Batman next year since on paper it seems like the most Batman-like character.

I get the criticism, but I do appreciate a lack of infallible Bat-Godness to this version of Bruce. I actually think he is depicted as quite brilliant in The Dark Knight with his ability to trace mob money via irradiated dollar bills, to take forensics off a shattered bullet shell in a brick wall, even simple things like apparently having memorized 90% of the GCPD by face and name that he can spot them from a distance.

He felt like an immovable object about to meet his unstoppable force. Everything goes Batman's way for about the first 45 minutes to an hour in the film. Even after the first killings, Batman captures Joker at the 90 minute mark.

Why that movie is beloved is the villain does get the upper hand in a way that feels like natural story progression when you're an hour and 40 minutes into the thing. Yes, in the comics he would not be depicted as that beatable, but then again it gives the movie a sense of stakes. Something that no Marvel Studios film has ever had, because the hero never seems at risk of losing in them.

 

[Napoleon]

To answer the question, yes, I think Marvel does have a problem with its villains.

IMO, the only really good ones have been Kingpin and Loki, and even the latter's charm has been starting to wear a bit thin. Alexander Pierce and The Winter Solider were decent. The rest are just bleh (I haven't watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thoroughly yet, so I may be missing some).

I think that part of the reason that there is so much criticism of the MCU villains is because in the source material that inspired these movies many of them are very fleshed out and compelling. And even if they weren't originally, a talented writer and director can make them into something memorable.

Now I normally don't concern myself to heavily with the opinions of celebrities, but Marvel would do well to heed the advice of George R.R. Martin, because that man knows how to create awesome villains. Norman Osborne (should he appear in these films) should be the Tywin Lannister of the MCU; a truly horrible prick who uses his wealth and influence for his own gain, is willing to screw people over without a moment's hesitation, and is also a terrible and abusive father, as well as having a great presence (though a lot of that has to do with Charles Dance). And we should see all of this, which is another thing. I feel it would serve to improve these villains if we could get better insight into their characters.

And can I say it really bothers me how some people so readily sweep this issue under the rug and try to redirect this issue to other films? It goes to show a lot of insecurity on their part and unwillingness to discuss the issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding better things from a company, even if it's just a certain element.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

To answer the question, yes, I think Marvel does have a problem with its villains.

IMO, the only really good ones have been Kingpin and Loki, and even the latter's charm has been starting to wear a bit thin. Alexander Pierce and The Winter Solider were decent. The rest are just bleh (I haven't watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thoroughly yet, so I may be missing some).

I think that part of the reason that there is so much criticism of the MCU villains is because in the source material that inspired these movies many of them are very fleshed out and compelling. And even if they weren't originally, a talented writer and director can make them into something memorable.

Now I normally don't concern myself to heavily with the opinions of celebrities, but Marvel would do well to heed the advice of George R.R. Martin, because that man knows how to create awesome villains. Norman Osborne (should he appear in these films) should be the Tywin Lannister of the MCU; a truly horrible prick who uses his wealth and influence for his own gain, is willing to screw people over without a moment's hesitation, and is also a terrible and abusive father, as well as having a great presence (though a lot of that has to do with Charles Dance). And we should see all of this, which is another thing. I feel it would serve to improve these villains if we could get better insight into their characters.

And can I say it really bothers me how some people so readily sweep this issue under the rug and try to redirect this issue to other films? It goes to show a lot of insecurity on their part and unwillingness to discuss the issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding better things from a company, even if it's just a certain element.

bravo sir!

 

[ThePhantasm]

That post kinda makes me want Charles Dance to play Norman

I guess he's too old, but man

 

[Aejej]

And can I say it really bothers me how some people so readily sweep this issue under the rug and try to redirect this issue to other films? It goes to show a lot of insecurity on their part and unwillingness to discuss the issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding better things from a company, even if it's just a certain element.

I agree, it's amazing (not in a positive way).

 

[Napoleon]

They should snag him for Surtur, Doramammu, or Mephisto (as long as they don't waste him).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I agree, it's amazing (not in a positive way).

Make that two of us!

 

[ThePhantasm]

I think part of the problem is MCU villains tend toward cheesiness, and are frequently punctuated with comic relief scenes. They never feel like a threat to take seriously. Probably the only one who did was Alexander Pierce.

 

[KingCheops]

Oh god don't take any cues from GRRM. Every movie will end in a cliffhanger before the big battle and we'll have 90 minutes of either nipples or food or both.

Also I thought that Yellowjacket was pretty good. Corey Stoll played unhinged very well. All his scenes were uncomfortable and felt like something bad was going to happen.

 

[Napoleon]

Oh god don't take any cues from GRRM. Every movie will end in a cliffhanger before the big battle and we'll have 90 minutes of either nipples or food or both.

When I said

heed the advice of [GRRM]

I was only referring to one aspect of his writing - how he creates and develops his villains - not every aspect of his work.

 

[ThePhantasm]

When I said I was only referring to one aspect of his writing - how he creates and develops his villains - not every aspect of his work.

No... we must interpret your comment as some absurd absolute!

DO YOU WANT IRON MAN TO BE KILLED OFF? SERIOUSLY? HOW ABOUT CAP? THINK BEFORE YOU SUGGEST GRRM!!

 

[KingCheops]

I was only referring to one aspect of his writing - how he creates and develops his villains - not every aspect of his work.

Fair enough. My bad for the misinterpretation of what you said.

I'm not entirely sure Marvel can take the same tack however as the truly good GRRM villains are slow builds for the most part. He's got some pretty one-dimensional, mustache twirling villains in there (Victarion and Ramsay spring to mind).

People usually point at Loki and Kingpin as the best and they have 3 movies and 13 episodes respectively to build their rep.

 

[Mjölnir]

To answer the question, yes, I think Marvel does have a problem with its villains.

IMO, the only really good ones have been Kingpin and Loki, and even the latter's charm has been starting to wear a bit thin. Alexander Pierce and The Winter Solider were decent. The rest are just bleh (I haven't watched Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thoroughly yet, so I may be missing some).

I think that part of the reason that there is so much criticism of the MCU villains is because in the source material that inspired these movies many of them are very fleshed out and compelling. And even if they weren't originally, a talented writer and director can make them into something memorable.

Now I normally don't concern myself to heavily with the opinions of celebrities, but Marvel would do well to heed the advice of George R.R. Martin, because that man knows how to create awesome villains. Norman Osborne (should he appear in these films) should be the Tywin Lannister of the MCU; a truly horrible prick who uses his wealth and influence for his own gain, is willing to screw people over without a moment's hesitation, and is also a terrible and abusive father, as well as having a great presence (though a lot of that has to do with Charles Dance). And we should see all of this, which is another thing. I feel it would serve to improve these villains if we could get better insight into their characters.

And can I say it really bothers me how some people so readily sweep this issue under the rug and try to redirect this issue to other films? It goes to show a lot of insecurity on their part and unwillingness to discuss the issue. There is absolutely nothing wrong with demanding better things from a company, even if it's just a certain element.

All I remember George saying was that he didn't want villains to have similar powers to the heroes because he thought fights between characters with different power sets are more exciting. He wrote the criticism as part of an Ant-Man review, where he liked the villain but had an issue with the dark mirror trope in terms of powers (and that included all Marvel movies, not just the ones from Marvel Studios). That doesn't apply to anything you wrote so have I missed some other comments he's made about Marvel movies?

 

[Silvermoth]

Um can we ask marvel to go back to boring villains now please? Killgrave is way too scary. I've learned my lesson now

 

[brothersthre3]

I thought Loki was a good villian in Thor and The Avengers. The Iron Man villains have been decent. GOTG, Thor 2, and Captain America's villains all left a lot to be desired.

 

[Raiden]

Um can we ask marvel to go back to boring villains now please? Killgrave is way too scary. I've learned my lesson now

I wish there are more Kilgraves in MCU; I think he is probably the best villain right now, followed by Kingpin, Loki, Pierce, and WS.

 

[Raiden]

I thought Loki was a good villian in Thor and The Avengers. The Iron Man villains have been decent. GOTG, Thor 2, and Captain America's villains all left a lot to be desired.

Cap's villains are more than decent. Red Skull is okay, but both Pierce and WS in Cap 2 are awesome villains. And I'm sure both Zemo and Crossbones will be great in Cap 3 as well.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I think Pierce was ok but not awesome. I want Baron Zemo to be better than him and Ultron.

 

[CaptainWagner]

That post kinda makes me want Charles Dance to play Norman

I guess he's too old, but man

There's always Silvermane.

 

[sportjames23]

As long as DC's top villain is Lex Luthor... Marvel could put out a rubber ducky as a villain and they would still be in better shape.

 

[Silvermoth]

Aw cute! A rubber ducky!

Anyway it's pretty obvious lex isn't the top villain, it's joker.