Does marvel really have a problem with making their villains cool?

[metaphysician]

Also, Extremis abilities had little to no explanation with the result that they made very little sense and the fx they chose to represent them where seriously unimpressive. That's why, overall, Killian comes off to me as irritating, uninteresting and incoherent.

Okay, leaving aside everything else. . . how the hell is "it makes you stronger and tougher, heals faster, but creates a lot of waste heat that you can use if you can control it" making little sense? What, were you expecting a 10 minute power point presentation on all the features of Extremis?

 

[The Endless]

I thought Pepper saving Stark was great. It's again, typical Shane Black. Taking a genre trope and turning it upside down whilst pissing all over it.

The damsel in distress saves the superhero. Who woulda thunk it?

 

[Saitou Hajime]

Yes, the specific plan they had him working was really well thought out, but as a character I didn't find him even remotely compelling. His motivation was so irritatingly cliched - yes, I know it wasn't all about getting revenge on Stark but it was basically the former weak nerdy guy taking his revenge on the world that oppressed him now that he's become strong and hunky. Blech. Boring.

Except that Killian didn't want revenge on Tony or the world at all. He was actually GRATEFUL for getting mistreated as he did, because it helped him realize the truth that would guide him for years to come and turn him into the man he is in the present.

 

[CaptainWagner]

-Kilian definatley gets a lot of undeserved hate, in my opinion. Like others have said, his scheme was genius and no, his motivation was not "Kill Tony because he didn't meet me on the roof", as many of IM3s critics like to say.

-Vanko/Whiplash should have been a great villain, but had most of his scenes cut.

-I wish they hadn't killed Ronan, he deserved more expansion beyond the first film.

-And I thought Thanos' voice was fine. They have plenty of time to perfect it before GOTG 2.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Killians elaborate plans was very smart and well thought out, but he was a boring, tpyical villain (minus the fire breathing).

I agree that Zod was forgettable as a villain, but Michael Shannon's performance was one of the best performances in recent superhero movie memory.

Whaat? He was basically angry all the time and shouting his lines, he was one of the most bland performances in the movie, also the villain's motivations were nonsensical, every decision he made made things worse for himself and Krypton. There was no depth to his character or Shannon's performance which is sad considering he's a great actor.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I like the concept of him being genetically engineered from birth to have the job of defending Krypton. Of course, having that intrinsic goal doesn't mean you can't be mistaken about the way to accomplish it (and I think it's fair to say he was mistaken).

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Performance is an important part of a villain. Shannon, Spacey, Neeson and Murphy really sold me. Scarecrow's mind stuff was some heavy **** in BB (although he was fairly undercut by the later films) and Spacey was one of the most deliciously insane characters I've ever seen (although he was somewhat undercut by the idiot henchmen/girlfriend). Pearce really, really didn't.

Yes, the specific plan they had him working was really well thought out, but as a character I didn't find him even remotely compelling. His motivation was so irritatingly cliched - yes, I know it wasn't all about getting revenge on Stark but it was basically the former weak nerdy guy taking his revenge on the world that oppressed him now that he's become strong and hunky. Blech. Boring.

Add to that the very problematic fact that the fake villain in the first half of the film felt a million times more scary than the real one in the second half and the fact that they ditched what was looking to be an honestly new and interesting IM villain for the sake of bringing out Yet Another Evil Arms Dealer (seriously, is Iron Man ever allowed to fight anything else?).

Also, Extremis abilities had little to no explanation with the result that they made very little sense and the fx they chose to represent them where seriously unimpressive. That's why, overall, Killian comes off to me as irritating, uninteresting and incoherent.

Stane... well, Stane is better than Killian. Bridges did a good job with what he had to work with, but his plan was fairly basic, his intimate relationship with tony didn't come across very well to begin with, so his betrayal of him didn't really feel very important, and his iron suit, while big and strong, wasn't all that threatening and resulted in a slightly anti-climatic final fight. Sure, he doesn't indulge much in grandstanding, but otherwise he's a fairly by-the-numbers villain who doesn't have an outstanding performance, intriguing backstory or unique personality/abilities to make him stand out.

Shannon was extremely bland, one of the weakest performances in the movie. Pierce was far better than him.

I do agree that Spacey made a better performance but I disliked the character too much, it feel like the cliche "im a bad guy with countless monologues" type of villain. Neeson was okay I guess, he didn't do anything particularly interesting acting wise but I blame the writing. Scarecrow was just completely forgettable, if he wasn't in TDK and TDKR I probably would not remember him at all.

This is why I don't undertand all the criticisms for Marvel's villains when basically all DC has are The Joker and Bane(arguably Harvey Dent although I don't think so). I mean I agree that their villains are weak but so are DC's.

The best superhero villains we've got this decade are Loki, Bane, Fassbender's Magneto and Sebastian Shaw. I can't believe Fox has the edge on this lol

 

[Johnny-Oh]

Except that Killian didn't want revenge on Tony or the world at all. He was actually GRATEFUL for getting mistreated as he did, because it helped him realize the truth that would guide him for years to come and turn him into the man he is in the present.

EXACTLY!

 

[The Endless]

Whaat? He was basically angry all the time and shouting his lines, he was one of the most bland performances in the movie, also the villain's motivations were nonsensical, every decision he made made things worse for himself and Krypton. There was no depth to his character or Shannon's performance which is sad considering he's a great actor.

I agree. For a character who was supposed to be genetically engineered to be a great military leader... he was awfully shouty and prone to temper tantrums.

I didn't mind Shannon's performance (although the idea it is one of the best ever is laughable), but the Zod character is just a teeming mass of contradictions.

It would have been cool to see a more calm and tactically minded Zod. Michael Shannon excels at playing sinister, cold characters, who have rage bubbling underneath the surface. I think Zod would have been a better character if he was eerily cold and calm throughout the entire movie... until his "purpose" was made redundant with the destruction of the genesis chamber. Then we see Shannon explode with rage. That would have made for a more compelling and powerful portrayal in my view.

 

[Kirmit]

I agree. For a character who was supposed to be genetically engineered to be a great military leader... he was awfully shouty and prone to temper tantrums.

I didn't mind Shannon's performance (although the idea it is one of the best ever is laughable), but the Zod character is just a teeming mass of contradictions.

It would have been cool to see a more calm and tactically minded Zod. Michael Shannon excels at playing sinister, cold characters, who have rage bubbling underneath the surface. I think Zod would have been a better character if he was eerily cold and calm throughout the entire movie... until his "purpose" was made redundant with the destruction of the genesis chamber. Then we see Shannon explode with rage. That would have made for a more compelling and powerful portrayal in my view.

Like how Faora was portrayed?

 

[The Endless]

Kinda yea. It was just strange seeing this genetically bred military leader letting his emotions get the better of him all the damn time. I'd have liked to see a more studious and tactical portrayal.

 

[Sexy Magician]

I don't believe the Red Skull is actually dead. As it happens, I just rewatched Cap1 and paid special attention to his 'death' scene, and while there is some minor face melting, it looks mostly like he gets pulled through the tesseract (which we know is essentially a door to other places in the universe). I expect he's been stuck somewhere out there in the universe, or maybe trapped inside the tesseract itself (wouldn't that be fairly close to one of the comic book storylines where Cap and Red Skull get trapped in some kind of cosmic energy together?), but he will return in the future. If we're really lucky, in Cap3.

I agree, I've mentioned it before and usually type ' killed off or at least appeared to be killed off', I to don't think he is dead, it definitely appears like he is teleported somewhere, in a very similar manner to going through the Bifrost in terms of visually as well, I just hope he is going to return.

 

[Sexy Magician]

How would the Wrecking Crew be memorable, in a visual or characterization way? The Wrecking Crew has somewhat interesting visual look, but as characters, they are some of the flattest villains in the MU. They are the most generic goons in the MU and have been for decades, there only purpose is to knock over bank and have the heroes fight them at the beginning of an issue, before the real villain shows up. Unless they got a major personality upgrade in the movies, they would not be memorable in terms of personalities.

In terms of visuals was what I was going for more, I certainly don't think they are main villain worthy, but done right I think they could be remembered favourably, love or hate him, Ben Kingsleys Mandarin in IM3 is definitely someone who has been remembered, and he wasn't even the main villain of the movie. Albeit both characters exist under very different circumstances, I just think visually and comedic wise they could be memorable. Im not making out they are Loki memorable.

 

[chamber-music]

Kinda yea. It was just strange seeing this genetically bred military leader letting his emotions get the better of him all the damn time. I'd have liked to see a more studious and tactical portrayal.

Man of Steel felt strangely edited at times. When Zod did his crazy "I will find him" or "the lack of purpose" speech it felt like they edited out Superman or Lara's reply. It feels like there were lines missing.

Seeing a guy going crazy and people just looking at him not responding is a bit jarring.

 

[3dman27]

I thought this thread was about marvel villians

 

[Marvelocity]

How so? Obadiah Stane in the comics completely ruined Tony Stark's life, took over his company, manipulated him so that he went back on the bottle, turned him into a homeless drunk and emotional wreck, stole all of Stark's wealth. blew up Stark's base of operations in California which killed one of his friends and nearly killed Jim Rhodes, and switched out the minds of Bethany Cabe and Madame Masque. All before he even became Iron Monger.

Stane in the movies doesn't come anywhere close to the ruthless genius chess master of the comics. Stane in the comics is one of Stark's most deadly and memorable enemies.

All right, well how about "lived up to" his comic version? I wasn't a big fan of Stane in the comics but thought he was perfect in the movie. That's a complete 180 from The Mandarin, who is Tony's greatest foe in the comics but a pathetic joke in the movie.

 

[The Endless]

Mandarin is a lame villain in the comics too. He's just the best and most famous of an incredibly weak rogues gallery.

The only time Mandarin was something other than a Fu Manchu with cool super powers was in the Haunted story line by the Knauf's... where funnily enough, he played a Machiavellian business man pulling the strings behind the scenes. Kinda like Guy Pearce's Aldrich Killian, actually.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Mandarin is a lame villain in the comics too. He's just the best and most famous of an incredibly weak rogues gallery.

The only time Mandarin was something other than a Fu Manchu with cool super powers was in the Haunted story line by the Knauf's... where funnily enough, he played a Machiavellian business man pulling the strings behind the scenes. Kinda like Guy Pearce's Aldrich Killian, actually.

Yeah you're probably right, but people were disappointed because Ben Kingsley's Mandarin seemed like it was going to deliver the most badass interpretation of The Mandarin yet, so everyone got pissed.

I still think it would've been cool if they kept going with Kingsley's Mandarin, Killian could've been a different villain entirely

 

[Marvelocity]

That's what Black said long before the movie came out, so way to tow the company line. That was his way of throwing in what he thought would be a cool twist to make it look like he's some creative genius. Whatever it takes to justify ruining a classic villain I guess was the mindset. But Mandarin is Iron Man's arch nemesis whether you want him to be or not. That isn't up for debate. Mandarin is Chinese. He is a martial artist. He does have alien technology-powered rings. If you think all that makes him a joke, that's fine. I think Black's movie is a joke. And considering it's designed to make you laugh every 20 seconds, I think that's a fair assessment.

 

[Rorschach2012]

That's what Black said long before the movie came out, so way to tow the company line. That was his way of throwing in what he thought would be a cool twist to make it look like he's some creative genius. Whatever it takes to justify ruining a classic villain I guess was the mindset. But Mandarin is Iron Man's arch nemesis whether you want him to be or not. That isn't up for debate. Mandarin is Chinese. He is a martial artist. He does have alien technology-powered rings. If you think all that makes him a joke, that's fine. I think Black's movie is a joke. And considering it's designed to make you laugh every 20 seconds, I think that's a fair assessment.

you will get the Mandarin that you want. I have a feeling IM4 will address a lot of the complaints about IM3.

IM3's trailers made us believe this would be IM's darkest adventure, maybe IM4 will be his true lowest point. With the real Mandarin (rings and all) coming to **** IM up!!

Killian thought the Mandarin was just an urban legend, so he played on everyone's fears and created a fake Mandarin, this blatant disrespect could cause the real Mandarin to come out of the shadows. I really really look forward to seeing the real Mandarin. This is another opportunity for Marvel to knock a villain outta the park, i hope they don't squander this.

I still think a slightly darker IM movie can work. RDJ can still be making jokes and stuff, but this should be IM's lowest point. Mandarin should not be funny. This should be the final chapter of RDJ IM's solo movies.

Mandarin should be mysterious and supernatural, this should be the first time in IM's world where a villain can't be immediately explained through technology, IM should question the Mandarin's seemingly supernatural methods

 

[Marvelocity]

You don't seriously see that happening, do you? You are describing the movie that Iron Man 3 was advertised to be. They aren't going to backtrack and give us that movie now. It would be an admission that Iron Man 3 was a disaster.

 

[DOBSON10]

I think the real problem is all of Marvel's best villains belong to the X-Men and Spiderman. Iron Man, Captain America, Thor and Hulk's villains just aren't as interesting in my opinion. The best MCU villain would have a tough time breaking into an X-Men or Spiderman movie, each franchise has several villains that are better than any of the MCU villains so far. This is just based on the characters themselves, some of the villains haven't lived up to their potential. For example, I find Juggernaut more interesting than any MCU villain but I would say that in terms of movie portrayals he wasn't as good as some of the MCU villains.

But just in general, all the most interesting Marvel villains belong to the other studio's. Magneto, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Dr. Doom, Juggernaut, Sabertooth, Mystique, Sentinels, Green Goblin, Dr. Octopus, Venom, Carnage, and Kingpin are all more interesting to me than the majority of the MCU villains so far. Thanos and Ultron are also more interesting than the villains used so far. Of course everything is subjective, I'm sure plenty would disagree with me but the 4 most interesting characters that they have used in the MCU are Red Skull, Loki, Winter Soldier and Abomination but they really only stack up with a couple villains on that list.

Right now my rankings would be...

1. Red Skull - Good but not great. Could have been better, didn't reach it's potential.
2. Loki - Good in The Avengers, annoying in Thor 1 and not really a villain in Thor 2. He's been solid overall.
3. Abomination - Again, good not great. CGI could have been better.
4. Winter Soldier - Good not great.
5. Ivan Vanko - Above Average
6. Eric Savan - Above average
7. Aldrich Killian - Above average
8. Alexander Pierce - Above average
9. Obadiah Stane - Above average
10. The Destroyer - GREAT but since it's just a machine with no personality or motivations and not much screen time I can't put it any higher.
11. King Laufey - Wasn't much of a threat, was good otherwise.
12. Justin Hammer - Corny
13. Malekith - Crap
14. Trevor Slattery - Horrendous, nothing special before the ******ed bait and switch either.

 

[The Endless]

That's what Black said long before the movie came out, so way to tow the company line. That was his way of throwing in what he thought would be a cool twist to make it look like he's some creative genius. Whatever it takes to justify ruining a classic villain I guess was the mindset. But Mandarin is Iron Man's arch nemesis whether you want him to be or not. That isn't up for debate. Mandarin is Chinese. He is a martial artist. He does have alien technology-powered rings. If you think all that makes him a joke, that's fine. I think Black's movie is a joke. And considering it's designed to make you laugh every 20 seconds, I think that's a fair assessment.

It's nothing to do with what Black said. I've actually read the comics. The Mandarin in 99% of his portrayals is a lame Fu Manchu rip off who has cool alien rings. Nothing more.

Now, the Haunted storyline, which is widely regarded as one of the best Iron Man stories ever, features a Mandarin who is a shady business man behind the scenes who manipulates Maya Hansen(you know the female in IM3) to enhance Extremis into an airborne virus by pretending his motives are for the betterment of mankind, but they are actually to create an army (is this ringing any bells?).

Iron Man 3 clearly takes inspiration from this story line. Aldrich Killian in IM3 is pretty much exactly like the Mandarin in that story line.

 

[Chris B]

I think for the most part, the villains have all worked for their respective films. Though I could agree that Loki has probably been as far as having an impact goes, with Malekith being the most underwhelming so far.

I do think Whedon and Spader will do something special with Ultron. I didn't have a problem with Brolin as Thanos, but he only had basically a cameo, so the jury is out on him.

 

[Sexy Magician]

you will get the Mandarin that you want. I have a feeling IM4 will address a lot of the complaints about IM3.

IM3's trailers made us believe this would be IM's darkest adventure, maybe IM4 will be his true lowest point. With the real Mandarin (rings and all) coming to **** IM up!!

Killian thought the Mandarin was just an urban legend, so he played on everyone's fears and created a fake Mandarin, this blatant disrespect could cause the real Mandarin to come out of the shadows. I really really look forward to seeing the real Mandarin. This is another opportunity for Marvel to knock a villain outta the park, i hope they don't squander this.

I still think a slightly darker IM movie can work. RDJ can still be making jokes and stuff, but this should be IM's lowest point. Mandarin should not be funny. This should be the final chapter of RDJ IM's solo movies.

Mandarin should be mysterious and supernatural, this should be the first time in IM's world where a villain can't be immediately explained through technology, IM should question the Mandarin's seemingly supernatural methods

Now Guardians of the Galaxy exists in the MCU we very well could have a Mandarin that technology doesn't need to explain, as much as I would love a bad ass Mandarin, I can't see 'the real' Mandarin making a return, it would feel like a cop out and repeating a villain so to speak, although I don't really know who else you could put in an Iron Man sequel, his villains are pretty lame.