Ant-Man Edgar Wright Leaves Ant-Man!! - Part 1

[Rock Sexton]

I'm getting about goddamned tired of this blanket "blind fanboy" crap you people are happily painting the forum with when in truth it's only a tiny handful of chuckleheads that it really applies to.

They love runnin' with that straw man though. Without it, they wouldn't be able to repeat the same message 18 billion times.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Actually I am glad that if the replacement is Gunn that Marvel didn't waste the director spot to a POC or a Woman. I want a POC/Woman Director to be involved in the script.

 

[TheVision]

I really dont get why theyd take a chance of driving Wright away like this. You dont screw with a filmmakers script unless its just plain wrong. It seems to just cause more problems for everyone. I guess it really had to be fixed before it was made.

 

[The Endless]

Or the rumour that Wright was losing control of the budget and was falling behind schedule carries weight to it.

He'd been working on this film for what, 6 years? If there was any creative differences they would have happened long before the film was weeks away from actually shooting. They would have happened in the conceptual stage. The screenplay draft stage.

 

[Dr. Evil]

All Wright could have had in the script was "Henry Pym was once a colleague of Howard Stark" and boom, there's the connection to the MCU. I guess Marvel wanted more that that.

 

[Mysteryman]

It would be nice to know the whole story one day .

 

[Paradox1]

Or the rumour that Wright was losing control of the budget and was falling behind schedule carries weight to it.

He'd been working on this film for what, 6 years? If there was any creative differences they would have happened long before the film was weeks away from actually shooting. They would have happened in the conceptual stage. The screenplay draft stage.

It's not that far fetched the first Thor director was replaced pretty late in the game.

 

[The Endless]

Who Patty Jenkins? She was replaced before the final draft of the script was finished right?

 

[Paradox1]

Who Patty Jenkins? She was replaced before the final draft of the script was finished right?

She left about a year from its release date

 

[The Endless]

She left at the end of 2011 going from a quick google search.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Jenkins left in December 2011, just one month after she was confirmed to be attached. Filming began September 2012.

 

[DrCosmic]

That's true of any studio though...the script has to be approved by the people spending the money on it before it goes into production, superhero film or not. It's normal for there to be a little push and pull between a director and the studio. Painting Wright as the "stubborn artist unable to compromise" is no different than painting Marvel/Disney as the "big, bag studio restricting creativity" at this point. There's always two sides to a situation. I think it's fair to say that Wright was probably originally going to have more creative control over this when the project was in its early stages. He's the one who came to Marvel with his vision for it in the first place, when they had no plans of making an Ant-Man movie.

Just a note: Marvel approached Wright, asking him if there was a character he wanted to do, not the other way around.

The reason I give Marvel more credit for restricting creativity is because they've shown that they're very much capable of that, from Iron Man 2 to other artists/creators they've ticked off. Marvel's goal is to build a universe, and sometimes that means making a lesser individual film so that you can set up something for later. They need to hire artists who are prepared to make worse films if that means that a future film might do better, even if that artist isn't involved.

If James Gunn actually directs Ant Man, noone will be able to use the "Marvel doesnt take chances" comment. GOTG was taking taking a chance and it sounds like they love it.

Who has said Marvel doesn't take chances?

Also, James Gunn actually started with more of a cookie-cutter film, and Whedon, who is in a position where Marvel is flexible to him more than the other away around, told him to make it less cookie-cutter.

I really dont get why theyd take a chance of driving Wright away like this. You dont screw with a filmmakers script unless its just plain wrong. It seems to just cause more problems for everyone. I guess it really had to be fixed before it was made.

That's not true. If you are building a Universe, and you need to put in some Phase 3 stuff, or you need characters to have a status quo at the end, even if that goes against the director's vision, or the theme/message of the film, then you change it, no matter how awesome the script/film is.

For Marvel, it's a better business decision to have an Ant-Man that's good that help sets up Avengers 3 than an Ant-Man's that's great that only has some one-liner connection to the MCU.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm getting about goddamned tired of this blanket "blind fanboy" crap you people are happily painting the forum with when in truth it's only a tiny handful of chuckleheads that it really applies to.

Who applied it to the whole forum? This was in direct response to someone saying that Marvel was perfect. It doesn't mean that someone with an actual cogent point is blindly devoted.

As is, it's hard to look at the processes with Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 and say Marvel doesn't at least sometimes mandate poorer films for the sake of their universe, which pisses off artists/directors because it seems to happen relatively last minute of late. Someone who doesn't acknowledge that, it's hard to not characterize them as blind when there's a major factor here that just isn't being acknowledged. But even still, those who acknowledge these events haven't actually characterized the whole forum as blind fanboys, at least, not in this thread.

I suppose that's why these events keep getting repeated, because they don't get acknowledged as part of Marvel's operating procedure, and no one wants to call everyone blind.

 

[TheVision]

DrCosmic: Im not supporting Wright at all. I think they changed the script for a reason. I keep saying, they wouldnt touch his work if it fit in with what they were going for. Otherwise he'd still be onboard.

Some people are complaining that since Ant Man was altered at the last minute, Marvel is scared of taking chances. I said they arent.

 

[DrCosmic]

DrCosmic: Im not supporting Wright at all. I think they changed the script for a reason. I keep saying, they wouldnt touch his work if it fit in with what they were going for. Otherwise he'd still be onboard.

Some people are complaining that since Ant Man was altered at the last minute, Marvel is scared of taking chances. I said they arent.

So when you said "just plain wrong" you weren't saying the movie wasn't awesome, just that it didn't fit in Phase 3?

But I agree, the last minute script changes, if that is what happened, have little to do with the way Marvel manages risk, and are much more likely 'Marvel-izing' Wright's film with the necessary tone, easter eggs and possibly structure changes. They probably threw a Peggy Carter early-SHIELD scene in there and cut something that gave the story more depth.

 

[TheVision]

I want my Marvel easter eggs and guest appearances as much as anything else in Ant Man.

 

[DrCosmic]

But when you have to choose, building the universe vs having a better film, what do you choose? Do you include fifteen minutes of story that supports Phase 3 and take out fifteen minutes of story that makes the movie better, or do you leave them film intact?

What if the director has a compelling argument for how it makes the movie worse, and refuses to compromise his artistic integrity for the sake of the MCU? Do you call him a prima donna because he doesn't want to make a poorer movie or explain to him that making the universe grow is more important than the quality of any single film and part on good terms?

 

[Keyser Soze]

But when you have to choose, building the universe vs having a better film, what do you choose? Do you include fifteen minutes of story that supports Phase 3 and take out fifteen minutes of story that makes the movie better, or do you leave them film intact?

I think there are genuinely people who would choose the former. And that's the divide I've talked about before: there are some who, ultimately, see adherence to canon and being a functional component in the MCU meta-story as the top priority, while others, like me, ultimately see making the best FILM possible as the top priority. And for the most part the two sides get along just fine because Marvel Studios has been so good at pleasing both. It's only at times like this, where decisions are made which potentially jeopardize the project's quality as a film in order to protect its quality as part of the MCU machine, that the rift between the two factions becomes more overt.

 

[TheVision]

Jeopardizing the MCU which we all love should be our main concern. Theyre never going to give complete free reign to a filmmaker just for the sake of their artistic vision. Its Marvel Studios, these movies are multi million dollar franchises, its not Miramax indie arthouse stuff.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Not sure if the last two are good ideas:

http://www.mtv.com/news/1833995/forget-ant-man-9-movies-marvel-should-make-instead/

 

[C. Lee]

I think there are genuinely people who would choose the former. And that's the divide I've talked about before: there are some who, ultimately, see adherence to canon and being a functional component in the MCU meta-story as the top priority, while others, like me, ultimately see making the best FILM possible as the top priority. And for the most part the two sides get along just fine because Marvel Studios has been so good at pleasing both. It's only at times like this, where decisions are made which potentially jeopardize the project's quality as a film in order to protect its quality as part of the MCU machine, that the rift between the two factions becomes more overt.

I feel, if you want to do a character YOUR way and not the way the GUYS PAYING THE BILLS wants.....then go create your own character and find your independant backing to do it.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Jeopardizing the MCU which we all love should be our main concern. Theyre never going to give free reign to a filmmaker just for the sake of art. Its Marvel Studios, these movies are multi million dollar franchises, its not Miramax indie arthouse stuff.

There are plenty of multi-million dollar franchises that I have little to no interest in, but one of the biggest thing that makes Marvel Studios' output a cut above being soulless cash cows is that it strikes that balance between consistency and diversity. The films have a general mood and model that they adhere to, yes, but they can span across multiple genres and, when at their very best, give great directors the chance to make films on a massive scale that still manage to feel personal. I loved how Joss Whedon managed to simultaneously make The Avengers an accessible standalone film, a sequel for every solo franchise, and a spiritual sequel to his own Serenity, while anyone - like me - who's been a fan of Shane Black for years likely had a big goofy grin on their face as they saw how he managed to sneak all his usual motifs into Iron Man 3. This is the studio that has been praised by directors, writers, actors etc as being the big studio that manages to feel like a little independent studio in how it nurtures its creative talent. This is the studio that reportedly gave back James Gunn's first draft for Guardians of the Galaxy, with Feige telling him that they wanted it to be "MORE James Gunn."

That's one of the things that I respect most about Marvel Studios. And I'd be sad if there was any trend towards moving away from that. But I'm not sure there is. It could just be that how Wright was approaching the film was tipping that balance I mentioned above too far askew. Maybe they were just an ill-fit. It doesn't make Marvel Studios bad, or Wright or his planned vision for the film bad. Without first-hand accounts we can't really comment.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I feel, if you want to do a character YOUR way and not the way the GUYS PAYING THE BILLS wants.....then go create your own character and find your independant backing to do it.

And it seems Edgar Wright's came to the same conclusion and decided he's happier going off to do his own thing.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Its more about a disagreement over the direction/tone of the film. One mans artistic vision does not necessarily equal high quality and a producers/studios vision does not equal lesser quality. Someone like Feige has a very good track record as a producer and collaborator. We won't be able to judge the overall success of the project until the film is completed.

I suppose if you think that everything that Wright does is pure gold it makes sense to assume the worst about Marvels intensions. I don't think this despite being a fan of much of his work.

I'm mostly disappointed because I didn't really have any interest in an Ant-man movie - much less a Lang centric one - until Wright was announced as writer/director. Plus the incredibly long buildup. But I'd be just as happy if wright went off and did his own thing and another quality director stepped in.

 

[C. Lee]

And it seems Edgar Wright's came to the same conclusion and decided he's happier going off to do his own thing.

Yep. Some people work good on a team....some don't. That doesn't make them good or bad...it doesn't make the team good or bad. There is no one set way to make a movie.