F'dup Chapters in American History(The Trump Years) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 29

[Hobgoblin]

Whenever I hear about Trumps ego, I remember Howard Stern saying he needs to be loved at all times. Being the president would be bad for him mentally because he would get so much criticism.

100 days in, Howard Stern was 100% right about Donald Trump

 

[MaceB]

As much as I dislike this president and get a constant headache trying to keep up with this collusion investigation, at the end of the day unless actual voting stations were hacked into and votes were changed or dead americans somehow casted votes black sheep style how can we really say the russians handed him the election? I was mad she lost but if freewill by voters is what took place then I have to accept that which hurts. I would dare to say comey is a big reason she lost with him announcing close to the election he was reopening his investigation into her.

?? So... the Russians hacked a political party, stole their private information, funneled it to an American saboteur, and released it strategically to help one particular candidate... who they happened to have secret meetings with. But nah... as long as they didn't physically change the voter tally... let's just give em a pass guys, come on!
I don't think anyone is saying that Russia handed the election to Trump. People are saying that the Russians committed crimes against the American people, and the Trump campaign helped, because they deemed it would help them politically... and it most likely did help.
Comey is indeed a big reason she lost.. but this isn't about sour grapes over losing, believe it or not. This is about law and order, which Trump himself said he supported... until it was found out that his campaign was actively breaking the law. And that should matter. Where's the line? If the next candidate were to work with the Saudi's to assassinate an official... would that be okay? Hey, it's not like the candidate actually pulled the trigger. The candidate was just working with those who did. Let's give him a break... I mean, it's not like it handed him the election or anything.

 

[Donner]

It's crappy because spreading false information on social media isn't a crime. The act of Trump paying off the Russians to spread crap about Hillary before the election technically wouldn't be illegal, but the act of colluding with the intent of deceiving others is. It depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes. If part of the deal was that Comey re-open the investigation, that probably heads into criminal activity.

Either way you cut it, Trump's bought and paid for by a foreign entity and his policies definitely benefit the Kremlin.

Edit: Or like MaceB said, if there is evidence of hacking and that was a deal with the Trump campaign and the Russians, then it would have to be proven that the hack resulted in a crime (ie the dissemination of classified information).

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

As much as I dislike this president and get a constant headache trying to keep up with this collusion investigation, at the end of the day unless actual voting stations were hacked into and votes were changed or dead americans somehow casted votes black sheep style how can we really say the russians handed him the election? I was mad she lost but if freewill by voters is what took place then I have to accept that which hurts. I would dare to say comey is a big reason she lost with him announcing close to the election he was reopening his investigation into her.

I don't think anyone is saying votes were changed at the polling stations, though multiple states did have Russian intrusions into they systems related to elections.

The pervasive misinformation campaign is another matter where sure, people made their own judgements but in terms of this investigation there is the distinction of whether or not one candidate actually conspired with a foreign power in targeting specific groups in spreading this false information. With presidential elections being as close as they have been for close to twenty years now you don't need to win over all that many and as has been pointed out that's just what happened in 2016. Move 80,000 or so votes across WI, MI etc. and Clinton wins. One has to ask about how a foreign intelligence operation had the savvy to understand American political realities to micro-target via online methods the voters that said misinformation would affect?

There's then the question of the hacked DNC e-mails, timed in a way to maximize their effect. If the Trump campaign had any connection, then that's being part of a criminal conspiracy. This isn't an exercise in just seeking out process crimes. This is about the possible coordination between an American campaign for the highest office in the land and a hostile foreign power's intelligence service's attempt to influence American voters which they wouldn't be doing out of the kindness of their hearts or for ****s and giggles. Russia got involved for the benefit of itself. Let's say Trump didn't win. That would not be a reason not to investigate, and with him winning gives all the more impetus to figure out what if any links there were or are between his campaign and this foreign operations to tip the scales to his advantage.

That he and his family and others involved in his campaign lied about Russian connections from the beginning only added to the urgency of going forward with investigations, which were happening on the Federal level even before Steele brought his dossier to the FBI.

 

[Prettyricky]

?? So... the Russians hacked a political party, stole their private information, funneled it to an American saboteur, and released it strategically to help one particular candidate... who they happened to have secret meetings with. But nah... as long as they didn't physically change the voter tally... let's just give em a pass guys, come on!
I don't think anyone is saying that Russia handed the election to Trump. People are saying that the Russians committed crimes against the American people, and the Trump campaign helped, because they deemed it would help them politically... and it most likely did help.
Comey is indeed a big reason she lost.. but this isn't about sour grapes over losing, believe it or not. This is about law and order, which Trump himself said he supported... until it was found out that his campaign was actively breaking the law. And that should matter. Where's the line? If the next candidate were to work with the Saudi's to assassinate an official... would that be okay? Hey, it's not like the candidate actually pulled the trigger. The candidate was just working with those who did. Let's give him a break... I mean, it's not like it handed him the election or anything.

But most of this is gossip or personal beliefs and not proven yet until mueller confirms it in his findings. Define criminal activity in this example of the election though. Because trying to get dirt on your opponent is not illegal and happens all the time in politics. Hacking servers is criminal yes and jail time which right now is the only real illegal thing we could get trump on if he told russians to hack them. If russians hacked dnc on there own free will and gave info or tried to give info to the trump campaign Im not sure where the legal sides comes in because it gets cloudy with deniability.

If were going by russian bot ads on social media then thats no different from news stations putting on air every night showing there polls that there candidate is leading in a landslide like cnn with hilary and fox news with trump.

Its incredibly hard to prove that americans were swayed one way or another from outside sources because when you vote it still comes down to free will

 

[Donner]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.5ce16f7c2781

It's not about whether or not the votes were swayed. That's irrelevant. The point here is whether Trump's campaign gained from illegal activities. Hacking and disseminating classified information is a crime. If anyone in Trump's campaign aided in how that information was spread, they're liable. As well, if there were deals made in exchange for illegally obtained information (like relaxing sanctions against Russia for dirt on Hillary) that's also a crime.

Looking at it purely from a "the people have free will on how they vote" perspective is narrow minded. It ignores the much larger implications of obtaining false information and spreading it in an effort to deceive the public. You're getting into 1984 **** there and that's incredibly scary.

 

[Greens]

Yea the "pee tape" is gossip until proven otherwise.

It is technically gossip, but it didn't come from a TMZ like entity. It's part of the Steele dossier which so far has been 100% on point. A lot of people mistakenly think it's a tape of women peeing on Trump which would make it more embarrassing but that's not true.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

He was in business for some 40 years, involving hundreds of millions of dollars yearly for decades, before considering running for president in 2010/2011 and running in 2015 and 2016, the alleged high crime happening in the latter period, looking at everything and anything before that seems like looking for anything rather than the initial charge.



A lot is controversial and alienating to the public (and so of course people edit: especially politicians would try to hide or lie about it) even if it isn't illegal.



I hadn't heard it reported (not from watching Fox News let alone only Fox News, my main source of news is NPR), just that Manafort had been convicted of 8 of 18 counts.

Are you aware that in those decades prior his finances were actually so poor most reputable banks would no longer do business with him? Are you aware that the entities he did eventually end up getting funding from are those which do tons of business with Russia? A man leveraged to Russian interests would be a likely target of influence, or had that not occurred to you? And would this not be an area to investigate if one were charged with finding out if there were links between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence operations?






All of Trump’s Ties to Russia, in 7 Charts

Chapter 1 - The Moscow Project


Russia: Trump & His Team’s Ties

"Set aside Putin and follow the money": a Russia expert’s theory of the Trump scandal

 

[MaceB]

But most of this is gossip or personal beliefs and not proven yet until mueller confirms it in his findings. Define criminal activity in this example of the election though. Because trying to get dirt on your opponent is not illegal and happens all the time in politics. Hacking servers is criminal yes and jail time which right now is the only real illegal thing we could get trump on if he told russians to hack them. If russians hacked dnc on there own free will and gave info or tried to give info to the trump campaign Im not sure where the legal sides comes in because it gets cloudy with deniability.

If were going by russian bot ads on social media then thats no different from news stations putting on air every night showing there polls that there candidate is leading in a landslide like cnn with hilary and fox news with trump.

Its incredibly hard to prove that americans were swayed one way or another from outside sources because when you vote it still comes down to free will

It's not gossip. All 7 of our intelligence agencies have determined that Russia hacked our elections and leaked it to an American Saboteur to help the Trump campaign. All 7. Meanwhile, Donald Trump Jr admitted to taking a meeting in which the Russian government offered him stolen material. That's not gossip, he admitted it and we have the e-mail trail.
Stealing private material is illegal. Hacking an American institution is illegal. Attacking our election network (which has again been determined by our intelligence agencies) is illegal. And if the Trump campaign aided them in doing any of that, then it's conspiracy.

I understand that there might be legal loopholes in this situation, and it's possible that the Trump campaign will be able to skirt by. But it's not gossip that they accepted stolen material. You say this happens all the time. Could you name another time in which material was stolen by a foreign nation in order to help a particular candidate who they were meeting with secretly? Can you name another campaign in which the campaign head regularly worked for a foreign adversary and was, in fact, billions of dollars in debt to a criminal organization? And again, don't the repeated lies give you even the slightest impression that there may be something more? Don't we have a duty to look further with that being the case?

This is why the term, "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" is a term of art. It may not be a felony to help a foreign nation to disperse illegally obtained, personal info... but it most certainly should be disqualifying and more than ground for impeachment hearings.

 

[Prettyricky]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.5ce16f7c2781

It's not about whether or not the votes were swayed. That's irrelevant. The point here is whether Trump's campaign gained from illegal activities. Hacking and disseminating classified information is a crime. If anyone in Trump's campaign aided in how that information was spread, they're liable. As well, if there were deals made in exchange for illegally obtained information (like relaxing sanctions against Russia for dirt on Hillary) that's also a crime.

Looking at it purely from a "the people have free will on how they vote" perspective is narrow minded. It ignores the much larger implications of obtaining false information and spreading it in an effort to deceive the public. You're getting into 1984 **** there and that's incredibly scary.

Your last paragraph just summarized most election campaigns in this country. Its the dirty little secret in politics to smear your opponenet with as much info to the public as possible. Doesnt matter if its true or not just get it out there and sell it.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I can't see ANY other campaign thinking that getting dirt from a foreign power was okay. Any other campaign most likely would have turned down said aid and immediately reported it to the FBI.

 

[MaceB]

I can't see ANY other campaign thinking that getting dirt from a foreign power was okay. Any other campaign most likely would have turned down said aid and immediately reported it to the FBI.

In fact, that exactly happened with Al Gore.

 

[Prettyricky]

It's not gossip. All 7 of our intelligence agencies have determined that Russia hacked our elections and leaked it to an American Saboteur to help the Trump campaign. All 7. Meanwhile, Donald Trump Jr admitted to taking a meeting in which the Russian government offered him stolen material. That's not gossip, he admitted it and we have the e-mail trail.
Stealing private material is illegal. Hacking an American institution is illegal. Attacking our election network (which has again been determined by our intelligence agencies) is illegal. And if the Trump campaign aided them in doing any of that, then it's conspiracy.

I understand that there might be legal loopholes in this situation, and it's possible that the Trump campaign will be able to skirt by. But it's not gossip that they accepted stolen material. You say this happens all the time. Could you name another time in which material was stolen by a foreign nation in order to help a particular candidate who they were meeting with secretly? Can you name another campaign in which the campaign head regularly worked for a foreign adversary and was, in fact, billions of dollars in debt to a criminal organization? And again, don't the repeated lies give you even the slightest impression that there may be something more? Don't we have a duty to look further with that being the case?

This is why the term, "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" is a term of art. It may not be a felony to help a foreign nation to disperse illegally obtained, personal info... but it most certainly should be disqualifying and more than ground for impeachment hearings.

Again you say they hacked our elections which implies votes were changed or shifted to trumps count, which is not true because it would have been reported and we would have had a recount or relection by now at tue very least. I highly doubt Our own government would sit by on that one.

The don jr one is cloudy by most reports and he said she said which I hope mueller clears up.

I cant off the top of my head say specifically when it happened before but can you say with certainty it hasnt?

We have the duty and the duty is
Mueller and its still ongoing.

 

[Donner]

Your last paragraph just summarized most election campaigns in this country. Its the dirty little secret in politics to smear your opponenet with as much info to the public as possible. Doesnt matter if its true or not just get it out there and sell it.

Again, it's how that information was obtained. The Russians hacked into the DNC system and gave Trump's campaign information in an attempt to deceive the public. That's not legal.

 

[Donner]

Again you say they hacked our elections which implies votes were changed or shifted to trumps count, which is not true because it would have been reported and we would have had a recount or relection by now at tue very least. I highly doubt Our own government would sit by on that one.

The don jr one is cloudy by most reports and he said she said which I hope mueller clears up.

I cant off the top of my head say specifically when it happened before but can you say with certainty it hasnt?

We have the duty and the duty is
Mueller and its still ongoing.

You keep thinking the Russians hacked the actual voting stations. That's not what we're talking about. They hacked systems for information and used that information as a bargaining chip. Trump sold out the US for illegally obtained dirt.

 

[Prettyricky]

You keep thinking the Russians hacked the actual voting stations. That's not what we're talking about. They hacked systems for information and used that information as a bargaining chip. Trump sold out the US for illegally obtained dirt, whether true or not.

How were sold out though? Thats another
Part Im hung up on, its pretty much the same laws etc the were in place 10 years ago that are today. I would love examples how we were sold out

 

[MaceB]

Again you say they hacked our elections which implies votes were changed or shifted to trumps count, which is not true because it would have been reported and we would have had a recount or relection by now at tue very least. I highly doubt Our own government would sit by on that one.

Hacking our election systems doesn't need to suggest what you are saying that they changed the tallies at all. I said they attacked our election network (which they did) and that they hacked an American institution (which they did). They did attack our election network in several states according to our intelligence agencies and several Secretaries of State. They changed voter rolls in several counties for instance. Folks came, and they were told they weren't on the rolls... they'd have to fill out an absentee. Now, did that physically change the vote tallies? No. But the impact of the confusion caused can't be calculated. Did it give them 80,000 votes across 3 states? Maybe... I dunno..it's kinda the principle though, isn't it?
You're making a straw man.

The don jr one is cloudy by most reports and he said she said which I hope mueller clears up.

We literally have the e-mail string which says that they are offering material to the campaign on behalf the of the Kremlin, and then Don Jr admitted to it on twitter.

I cant off the top of my head say specifically when it happened before but can you say with certainty it hasnt?

Haha, what? So, it's cool because we can't prove definitively that this hasn't happened before? Come on... seriously? The burden is on you bro. You are asserting that this kind of thing happens all the time. The burden of proof is on you. I'm under no obligation to prove a negative in order to make your unevidenced point for you. And even if it did, how does that mitigate the seriousness of this? Is it not a bad thing to work with a foreign government to distribute illegally received material and then to lie about it to investigators? Come on man....

We have the duty and the duty is
Mueller and its still ongoing.

No doubt, that's why it should go on unfettered. Any attempt to stop or hinder the investigation is an act of political sabotage and an obstruction of justice.

 

[Prettyricky]

Again, it's how that information was obtained. The Russians hacked into the DNC system and gave Trump's campaign information in an attempt to deceive the public. That's not legal.

Do you honestly believe this hasnt happened before? This one if mueller can prove it just happen to get there hand caught in the cookie jar. I would be willing to wager my house and bank account this is not the first time an outside source has pulled this or we in turn to other countries
Via back channels. Doesnt make it right but I want to make sure were not all
Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending this is a first of its kind

 

[Donner]

How were sold out though? Thats another
Part Im hung up on, its pretty much the same laws etc the were in place 10 years ago that are today. I would love examples how we were sold out

*sigh*

 

[Prettyricky]

*sigh*

Again im asking

 

[Donner]

Do you honestly believe this hasnt happened before? This one if mueller can prove it just happen to get there hand caught in the cookie jar. I would be willing to wager my house and bank account this is not the first time an outside source has pulled this or we in turn to other countries
Via back channels. Doesnt make it right but I want to make sure were not all
Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending this is a first of its kind

So because this isn't the first time it should be ignored? Wtf man. And unless you can prove it's happened before, how about you stop trying to make that claim? It's so obvious that Trump's campaign colluded with the Russians. If you want to know the specifics of what Trump has done for Russia, just google it.

 

[Fading]

Which is why the ignore/block feature is annoying and childish.

(although it does give me an LOL when someone tells me they're blocking me, SPOILER WARNING you can't block mods)

While there have been posters that were tempting to block, I never have. While I don't like arguing (debating I like), you can't change someone's mind if you pretend they don't exist. Plus they may say something to me directly, while everyone else but me can see it.

That said, my tolerance for Trump's cult has lowered a lot. I tend to read the first sentence on some of those posts, then just scroll past/skip the rest of it. It's all the same Fox News talking points. I don't have the time to read some of that crap. Plus, some of it is infuriating, cold hearted BS.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Do you honestly believe this hasnt happened before? This one if mueller can prove it just happen to get there hand caught in the cookie jar. I would be willing to wager my house and bank account this is not the first time an outside source has pulled this or we in turn to other countries
Via back channels. Doesnt make it right but I want to make sure were not all
Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending this is a first of its kind

Please provide examples of it having happened before.

 

[Prettyricky]

Haha, what? So, it's cool because we can't prove definitively that this hasn't happened before? Come on... seriously? The burden is on you bro. You are asserting that this kind of thing happens all the time. The burden of proof is on you. I'm under no obligation to prove a negative in order to make your unevidenced point for you. And even if it did, how does that mitigate the seriousness of this? Is it not a bad thing to work with a foreign government to distribute illegally received material and then to lie about it to investigators? Come on man

Its kind of like the patriots video taping teams practice plays and got caught, everyone did it most likely thoughout history but the pats were the ones that got caught first.

 

[Donner]

Trump's in the business of doing **** for himself. He sold the US out for illegally obtained information in the sense that it's not America's best interests he cares about. It's Russia's and himself. Ask the farmers how well he's fought for them. Or the GM workers. Or the LGBTQ community.

He owes the Kremlin and that's his first priority.