The Dark Knight "Five dead, two of them cops"

[Bats]

Nah, dude. The statement is undoutably the kills that Dent committed (or believe to have committed). The Joker killed far more ppl than that, Remember he (the Joker) also shot a cop square in the face before the big chase sequence after Dents arrest.

Well we'll probably have to respectfully disagree then. Who Dent killed, I don't remember how that info. got to Batman or Gordon ever. If I missed it, I still don't think it would ever get to the public anyway either.

Again, what I meant was about the kills was the ones the people of Gotham knew about (cop at the truck wouldn't count in this instance). Those kills would affect the public more negatively than some crooked people like Wuertz or Maroni's henchmen since the former were actually trying to make a change for the better.

I hope Nolan clarifies this during his live chat Thurs.!

 

[deathfromabove]

Well we'll probably have to respectfully disagree then. Who Dent killed, I don't remember how that info. got to Batman or Gordon ever. If I missed it, I still don't think it would ever get to the public anyway either.

Again, what I meant was about the kills was the ones the people of Gotham knew about (cop at the truck wouldn't count in this instance). Those kills would affect the public more negatively than some crooked people like Wuertz or Maroni's henchmen since the former were actually trying to make a change for the better.

I hope Nolan clarifies this during his live chat Thurs.!

no sir.

first of all we know the joker killed at least six (ten) cops. batman says "they must never know what he did" obviously refering to harvey.

gordon responds with "five dead. two of them cops"

i believe its

wuertz
maroni
his driver
ramirez (assumed at that point)

and

harvey dent

 

[Bats]

Lemme try this again....

1. At no point are Gordon & Batman made aware that Dent killed anyone. Right before Batman glides into the building where the Joker is, they don't even know where Dent is at that point (this is after his kills). Gordon even shouts to Batman "We have to save Dent!" thinking that Dent is actually in that building along with the other hostages.

2. The random cops the Joker killed are not counted since they are not related to Dent's prosecution of the mob (see #5).

3. "They must never know what he did." (to me) means that no one can know he went nuts & tried killing Gordon/Batman/Gordon's family.

4. And I'd like to adjust my list of 5 to include Rachel Dawes and to remove the fake Batman (I can't believe I forgot Rachel!). Those 5 are related to Dent's prosection in trying to take down the mob. With the Joker winning, killing anyone trying to better Gotham and Harvey turning into a killer, the people will lose hope. That's why Batman says to blame him for the deaths so that they will retain hope for a better Gotham and so that they won't know about Dent's transformation into Two-Face.

 

[Brock]

Lemme try this again....

1. At no point are Gordon & Batman made aware that Dent killed anyone. Right before Batman glides into the building where the Joker is, they don't even know where Dent is at that point (this is after his kills). Gordon even shouts to Batman "We have to save Dent!" thinking that Dent is actually in that building along with the other hostages.

2. The random cops the Joker killed are not counted since they are not related to Dent's prosecution of the mob (see #5).

3. "They must never know what he did." (to me) means that no one can know he went nuts & tried killing Gordon/Batman/Gordon's family.

4. And I'd like to adjust my list of 5 to include Rachel Dawes and to remove the fake Batman (I can't believe I forgot Rachel!). Those 5 are related to Dent's prosection in trying to take down the mob. With the Joker winning, killing anyone trying to better Gotham and Harvey turning into a killer, the people will lose hope. That's why Batman says to blame him for the deaths so that they will retain hope for a better Gotham and so that they won't know about Dent's transformation into Two-Face.

You make good points, and they probably left out some filler scenes that weren't considered needed. Why would Batman or Gordon figure that no one can know what the Joker did? Gotham's "soul" doesn't revolve around what the Joker does, but rather with Harvey, as Gordon stated. I'd have to double check the novel to see if they explain it, because I read it ages ago, but maybe they'll have the fillers in there.

Batman taking the blame is for the sole reason that he and Gordon agreed Gotham depended on Harvey, and that his reputation could not be tarnished by the events after his psychotic break. There is no reason for Batman to take the blame for anything the Joker did, never would he have to. Considering the focal point of that conversation was Gotham losing hope after what has happened to Dent, that is reason enough to point in Harvey's direction for the deaths.

 

[BestGirl]

Lemme try this again....

1. At no point are Gordon & Batman made aware that Dent killed anyone. Right before Batman glides into the building where the Joker is, they don't even know where Dent is at that point (this is after his kills). Gordon even shouts to Batman "We have to save Dent!" thinking that Dent is actually in that building along with the other hostages.

Gordon's clearly been informed that Wuertz was shot, Ramirez is missing (if she's victim #5), and Maroni and his bodyguard and driver are dead. He gets a nasty call from Dent telling him to meet him where Rachel died, and when he gets there Dent threatens to kill his family for revenge. Gordon probably puts two and two together and realizes that Dent killed the mob boss and cops who arranged his accident and Rachel's death.

 

[deathfromabove]

Lemme try this again....

1. At no point are Gordon & Batman made aware that Dent killed anyone. Right before Batman glides into the building where the Joker is, they don't even know where Dent is at that point (this is after his kills). Gordon even shouts to Batman "We have to save Dent!" thinking that Dent is actually in that building along with the other hostages.

2. The random cops the Joker killed are not counted since they are not related to Dent's prosecution of the mob (see #5).

3. "They must never know what he did." (to me) means that no one can know he went nuts & tried killing Gordon/Batman/Gordon's family.

4. And I'd like to adjust my list of 5 to include Rachel Dawes and to remove the fake Batman (I can't believe I forgot Rachel!). Those 5 are related to Dent's prosection in trying to take down the mob. With the Joker winning, killing anyone trying to better Gotham and Harvey turning into a killer, the people will lose hope. That's why Batman says to blame him for the deaths so that they will retain hope for a better Gotham and so that they won't know about Dent's transformation into Two-Face.

1. gordon makes that statement before he hears from harvey. im sure after gordon left the scene he made a few phone calls. he is the top cop after all.

2. why would gordon only count certain cops and not others?

3. but to hide the fact of what he did to the gordon's you dont need much of a cover up. only the gordon's and batman saw what happened. and who are the other four dead? batman doesnt have to take the fall for anything in this case becasuethe joker is already to blame for those deaths (many more than five no matter what standard you hold them too.)

its all in the film.

gordon "the joker won...whatever chance you gave us of fixing this city dies with harvey's reputation. we bet it all on him. people will lose hope"

batman "no they wont. they must never know what he did"

gordon "five dead. two of them cops. you cant just sweep that under-"

"no. the joker cannot win. gotham needs its true hero"

clearly they are talking about hiding what harvey did. now we can argue about who the five are but they are covering up harvey's actions. besides everyone already knows about the joker murders. it was all over the media. why pin that on batman?

4. why would they blame rachel's death on batman? why would taking the blame off a homicidal clown and putting onto the batman make gotham more hopeful in any way?

the cover up is to hide what harvey did. the deaths in question are those caused by him. they are hiding these events to preserve harvey's reputation

your argument makes no sense on any level whatsoever.

 

[Bats]

Get ready for some longness....

Gordon's clearly been informed that Wuertz was shot, Ramirez is missing (if she's victim #5), and Maroni and his bodyguard and driver are dead......

When and by whom? Besides Maroni's driver, we don't know if anyone else is for sure dead. Ramirez was only knocked out, btw.

1. gordon makes that statement before he hears from harvey. im sure after gordon left the scene he made a few phone calls. he is the top cop after all.

You shouldn't base an opinion on scenes that don't exist. Plus when he talks to Dent at the end, he tells him (about the cops there) that they "don't know why or who". So I don't believe he made calls of that nature.

2. why would gordon only count certain cops and not others?

Because, again, I'm counting the 5 dead people directly associated with the prosecution. If Gordon were to count all cops, he'd say a lot more than 5 people/2 cops.

.....batman doesnt have to take the fall for anything in this case because the joker is already to blame for those deaths (many more than five no matter what standard you hold them too.)

"Standard" = people associated with Dent's prosection. Does anyone read what I'm saying?

Other points addressed below.

your argument makes no sense on any level whatsoever.

That's because you're not reading closely. I'll try to answer some points again, generally. After this, I have other things to do.

Basically what I think is that the 5 Gordon refers to are: Dawes, Surillo, Loeb, Harvey & Dent (the 2 cops). With them gone & Dent going off the deep end, people would lose hope if they knew about him, and that people doing the right thing are killed instead of being rewarded.

I do not believe Gordon nor Batman know about the people Dent killed or injured. There's nothing in the film that gives either of them that info. (and I rewatched the end twice just now). Unfilmed scenes or Gordon/Batman putting 2 + 2 together I won't count, sorry.

Joker publicly stated he was going to kill people until Batman takes off his mask & turns himself in. Since he didn't, that's the only main reason I can think of for Batman saying to blame the deaths on him. Since if they blamed the Joker (or Dent) like you would think they should, then the people would have no faith in anyone trying to fight the mob or crime in general. Also consider that if criminals thought Batman was capable of killing, they would still be afraid of him.

The whole point at the end is to not let the Joker win with tearing down Dent as someone the city can look up to. By Batman taking the blame for things, they're doing just that.

Buenos noches.

 

[BatJeff7786]

Get ready for some longness....



When and by whom? Besides Maroni's driver, we don't know if anyone else is for sure dead. Ramirez was only knocked out, btw.



You shouldn't base an opinion on scenes that don't exist. Plus when he talks to Dent at the end, he tells him (about the cops there) that they "don't know why or who". So I don't believe he made calls of that nature.



Because, again, I'm counting the 5 dead people directly associated with the prosecution. If Gordon were to count all cops, he'd say a lot more than 5 people/2 cops.



"Standard" = people associated with Dent's prosection. Does anyone read what I'm saying?

Other points addressed below.



That's because you're not reading closely. I'll try to answer some points again, generally. After this, I have other things to do.

Basically what I think is that the 5 Gordon refers to are: Dawes, Surillo, Loeb, Harvey & Dent (the 2 cops). With them gone & Dent going off the deep end, people would lose hope if they knew about him, and that people doing the right thing are killed instead of being rewarded.

I do not believe Gordon nor Batman know about the people Dent killed or injured. There's nothing in the film that gives either of them that info. (and I rewatched the end twice just now). Unfilmed scenes or Gordon/Batman putting 2 + 2 together I won't count, sorry.

Joker publicly stated he was going to kill people until Batman takes off his mask & turns himself in. Since he didn't, that's the only main reason I can think of for Batman saying to blame the deaths on him. Since if they blamed the Joker (or Dent) like you would think they should, then the people would have no faith in anyone trying to fight the mob or crime in general. Also consider that if criminals thought Batman was capable of killing, they would still be afraid of him.

The whole point at the end is to not let the Joker win with tearing down Dent as someone the city can look up to. By Batman taking the blame for things, they're doing just that.

Buenos noches.

I started to see what you are saying, but no man. Batman can't be blamed for the death of Rachel or the Judge or the Commissioner. That wouldn't make any sense. If no one else knew those people died, I'd get what you were saying, but they do. Regardless of whether we saw a scene where Gordon learned of Wurtz, Maroni and his two men, etc., those are clearly the people they are talking about at the end.

 

[deathfromabove]

You shouldn't base an opinion on scenes that don't exist. Plus when he talks to Dent at the end, he tells him (about the cops there) that they "don't know why or who". So I don't believe he made calls of that nature.



Because, again, I'm counting the 5 dead people directly associated with the prosecution. If Gordon were to count all cops, he'd say a lot more than 5 people/2 cops.



"Standard" = people associated with Dent's prosection. Does anyone read what I'm saying?

Other points addressed below.



That's because you're not reading closely. I'll try to answer some points again, generally. After this, I have other things to do.

Basically what I think is that the 5 Gordon refers to are: Dawes, Surillo, Loeb, Harvey & Dent (the 2 cops). With them gone & Dent going off the deep end, people would lose hope if they knew about him, and that people doing the right thing are killed instead of being rewarded.

I do not believe Gordon nor Batman know about the people Dent killed or injured. There's nothing in the film that gives either of them that info. (and I rewatched the end twice just now). Unfilmed scenes or Gordon/Batman putting 2 + 2 together I won't count, sorry.

Joker publicly stated he was going to kill people until Batman takes off his mask & turns himself in. Since he didn't, that's the only main reason I can think of for Batman saying to blame the deaths on him. Since if they blamed the Joker (or Dent) like you would think they should, then the people would have no faith in anyone trying to fight the mob or crime in general. Also consider that if criminals thought Batman was capable of killing, they would still be afraid of him.

The whole point at the end is to not let the Joker win with tearing down Dent as someone the city can look up to. By Batman taking the blame for things, they're doing just that.

Buenos noches.

first and foremost: go watch the movie again. the dialog is quite clear.

second: who is batman refering to when he says "i killed those poeple". the five you mentioned? because the joker was already blamed for those deaths.

again:

gordon: "five dead. two of them cops. you cant just sweep that under-"

if the five dead are who you say then there is nothing to sweep up. the joker was already responsible and this info was already public.

batman: "no. the joker cannot win... i killed those people"

who is batman referring to here? the five you mentioned? surillo, loeb, harvey, and richard dent's deaths were already pinned on the joker. furthermore the cops harvey and dent were not associated directly with dent's case. they were killed because the joker wanted batman to go public. you cant divide the jokers murders by this motive (again by any standard, certainly not yours) to only include five.

and what exactly is batman taking the blame for if not those that dent murdered? we know he cant take the blame for the joker murders because, as i said, it was public knowledge already.

they clearly state that they are hiding what dent did in order to save his reputation.

are you ignoring the dialog in the movie just to suit yourself or what?

 

[Octoberist]

I started to see what you are saying, but no man. Batman can't be blamed for the death of Rachel or the Judge or the Commissioner. That wouldn't make any sense. If no one else knew those people died, I'd get what you were saying, but they do. Regardless of whether we saw a scene where Gordon learned of Wurtz, Maroni and his two men, etc., those are clearly the people they are talking about at the end.

Rachel, Judge, and the Commissioner? Yeah, it does not make any sense if Batman got blamed for those too. No sense what so ever.

 

[BestGirl]

When and by whom? Besides Maroni's driver, we don't know if anyone else is for sure dead. Ramirez was only knocked out, btw.

Wuertz, Maroni, the driver, and bodyguard were killed in the afternoon, IIRC, and the standoff with the Joker happened that evening. That gives plenty of time for the murders to be called in. Gordon could've been informed of Ramirez's disappearance just before he left to find Harvey, and that's even assuming he thinks she's Victim #5. It's also possible that the fifth victim is the black cop from the hospital.

Are you serious that we don't know for certain if Maroni and Wuertz are dead? If either had survived, don't you think we would've been some evidence of that fact?

Basically what I think is that the 5 Gordon refers to are: Dawes, Surillo, Loeb, Harvey & Dent (the 2 cops). With them gone & Dent going off the deep end, people would lose hope if they knew about him, and that people doing the right thing are killed instead of being rewarded.

Peoople already know this. It's not some sort of secret that Surillo, Loeb, Rachel, and Harvey and Dent are dead.

I do not believe Gordon nor Batman know about the people Dent killed or injured. There's nothing in the film that gives either of them that info. (and I rewatched the end twice just now). Unfilmed scenes or Gordon/Batman putting 2 + 2 together I won't count, sorry.

I already explained how Gordon knew these people were dead, and Batman probably knows because he eavesdrops on police chatter. I've been thinking about this, and here's my theory: the murder reports could've stated what weapon was used, and when Gordon saw that Dent was carrying the same type of gun he figured out that Harvey was the killer. I have little knowledge of weaponry so I don't know how plausible this is. Even if this isn't the case, then once Gordon sees that Harvey's one murderously crazy, he could still realize that Dent's the one who killed all those people that day - the ones responsible for his scarring.

Joker publicly stated he was going to kill people until Batman takes off his mask & turns himself in. Since he didn't, that's the only main reason I can think of for Batman saying to blame the deaths on him.

Batman doesn't say "Blame me for those deaths," he says "I killed those people." Claiming that Batman killed Surillo, Loeb, etc. doesn't make sense anyway. The Joker left cards all over the place; how could anyone think Batman was responsible?

Since if they blamed the Joker (or Dent) like you would think they should, then the people would have no faith in anyone trying to fight the mob or crime in general.

Everyone knows the Joker is a criminal. How would his committing murder shake public confidence in the justice system? Batman taking the fall for the Joker would be a much bigger shock to the public.

Also consider that if criminals thought Batman was capable of killing, they would still be afraid of him.

Everyone in the criminal underworld knows the Joker killed those people. They wouldn't buy Batman as the real mastermind behind the Joker's crimes for a second.

The whole point at the end is to not let the Joker win with tearing down Dent as someone the city can look up to. By Batman taking the blame for things, they're doing just that.

Buenos noches.

The ending makes more sense if Dent is a murderer. If you really want to shake Gotham, turn their White Knight into Joker-lite, and that's what the Joker did. Batman saves Dent's reputation and the city's hope by taking the fall for his murders. What's to be gained by taking the blame for the Joker's kills? Like I said, everyone knows the Joker is a psycho and it's not a secret that he's been trying (often successfully) to kill public figures.

 

[Why So Serious?]

History's mysteries.

Now, for a real question:

Why didn't Gordon and Batman pin the five murders on the Joker and his Thugs???

Doing so would've been a win-win for everyone. Harvey stays the white knight, Batman stays the dark knight. And since the Joker was ultimately responsible for them anyway..... Makes sense to me.

 

[BestGirl]

History's mysteries.

Now, for a real question:

Why didn't Gordon and Batman pin the five murders on the Joker and his Thugs???

Doing so would've been a win-win for everyone. Harvey stays the white knight, Batman stays the dark knight. And since the Joker was ultimately responsible for them anyway..... Makes sense to me.

Because it's one thing to blame yourself for something you haven't done, but it's something else entirely to frame an "innocent" person. The Joker was innocent in this case as he didn't actually kill these people. Blaming him would be incredibly immoral as he's guilty only in the broadest sense. Plus, it's possible that his goons or hostages could provide him with an alibi.

 

[Why So Serious?]

Because it's one thing to blame yourself for something you haven't done, but it's something else entirely to frame an "innocent" person. The Joker was innocent in this case as he didn't actually kill these people. Blaming him would be incredibly immoral as he's guilty only in the broadest sense. Plus, it's possible that his goons or hostages could provide him with an alibi.

See, I knew this'd be the first response. But it's just not good enough.

The Joker created Two-Face. Gordon knew it, Batman knew it. It wasn't accidental. It was completely intentional. He intended to turn Harvey into a homicidal monster. He intended to have him go out and murder those responsible for Rachel's death. That was his plan the entire time. So saying that he's "innocent in this case," or that he's guilty only in the "broadest sense" is a stretch.

Now, if the Joker had nothing to do with Harvey going bat**** crazy, that'd be a different story. But such is not the case.

Personally, I'd say that your response is the most plausible. But only because the film, up to that point supported the idea of Batman becoming something more than a hero. And, of course, because they needed to set the stage for the third film.

 

[beyond_death]

The way I see it is (besides having to set up Batman as more than a hero and all that jazz) that they needed to account for Harvey's death also. The SWAT guys and probably the police force knew that the Joker was caught at that time, and the only people at the scene were Batman, Gordon and Gordon's family, so in order to cover up Dent's crimes its obvious who should take the blame for murdering him. Now its possible to just go "ok pin Dents death on me, but blame the rest on the Joker", but that wouldnt make for good story telling would it

 

["V"]

Because it's one thing to blame yourself for something you haven't done, but it's something else entirely to frame an "innocent" person. The Joker was innocent in this case as he didn't actually kill these people. Blaming him would be incredibly immoral as he's guilty only in the broadest sense. Plus, it's possible that his goons or hostages could provide him with an alibi.

Exactly. They didn't blame Joker because they aren't corrupt. Gordon didn't even want to frame Batman, but his hand was forced. Not to mention that Joker could have easily denied it (and if Dent is indeed the 'fifth' victim, how could Joker - who was in custody at the time - have killed him?). Also being wanted for the murders restores Batman's 'fear factor' to criminals; after all, as Maroni said, everyone had gotten wise to him and his 'rules' so taking the blame turns the whole city agains him, but it also strengthens his weakness.

 

[BestGirl]

The way I see it is (besides having to set up Batman as more than a hero and all that jazz) that they needed to account for Harvey's death also. The SWAT guys and probably the police force knew that the Joker was caught at that time, and the only people at the scene were Batman, Gordon and Gordon's family, so in order to cover up Dent's crimes its obvious who should take the blame for murdering him. Now its possible to just go "ok pin Dents death on me, but blame the rest on the Joker", but that wouldnt make for good story telling would it

I thought of mentioning this too but Dent's death could possibly be passed off as an accident. Gordon could say he slipped off the edge of the building. He could even say it was suicide. It depends on what story Gordon's going to give to the police. OTOH it's probably easier to say that Batman kidnapped Gordon's family and Dent and then threw him off the ledge.

 

[deathfromabove]

Wuertz, Maroni, the driver, and bodyguard were killed in the afternoon, IIRC, and the standoff with the Joker happened that evening. That gives plenty of time for the murders to be called in. Gordon could've been informed of Ramirez's disappearance just before he left to find Harvey, and that's even assuming he thinks she's Victim #5. It's also possible that the fifth victim is the black cop from the hospital.

Are you serious that we don't know for certain if Maroni and Wuertz are dead? If either had survived, don't you think we would've been some evidence of that fact?



Peoople already know this. It's not some sort of secret that Surillo, Loeb, Rachel, and Harvey and Dent are dead.



I already explained how Gordon knew these people were dead, and Batman probably knows because he eavesdrops on police chatter. I've been thinking about this, and here's my theory: the murder reports could've stated what weapon was used, and when Gordon saw that Dent was carrying the same type of gun he figured out that Harvey was the killer. I have little knowledge of weaponry so I don't know how plausible this is. Even if this isn't the case, then once Gordon sees that Harvey's one murderously crazy, he could still realize that Dent's the one who killed all those people that day - the ones responsible for his scarring.



Batman doesn't say "Blame me for those deaths," he says "I killed those people." Claiming that Batman killed Surillo, Loeb, etc. doesn't make sense anyway. The Joker left cards all over the place; how could anyone think Batman was responsible?



Everyone knows the Joker is a criminal. How would his committing murder shake public confidence in the justice system? Batman taking the fall for the Joker would be a much bigger shock to the public.



Everyone in the criminal underworld knows the Joker killed those people. They wouldn't buy Batman as the real mastermind behind the Joker's crimes for a second.



The ending makes more sense if Dent is a murderer. If you really want to shake Gotham, turn their White Knight into Joker-lite, and that's what the Joker did. Batman saves Dent's reputation and the city's hope by taking the fall for his murders. What's to be gained by taking the blame for the Joker's kills? Like I said, everyone knows the Joker is a psycho and it's not a secret that he's been trying (often successfully) to kill public figures.

thank you.

 

[Killing Joke926]

umm.... maroni isn't dead. He as in the accident we dont know wheter he's dead or not

Agreed; and we have no confirmation if Rameriez is dead either. I know Dent killed the stubby ol' corrupt cop from the bar for sure, but other than that I have no clue. I'll look into it.

 

[BestGirl]

Agreed; and we have no confirmation if Rameriez is dead either. I know Dent killed the stubby ol' corrupt cop from the bar for sure, but other than that I have no clue. I'll look into it.

If Maroni weren't dead we would have evidence of his survival. Showing Dent shooting his driver would've been pointless if he weren't killed.

Ramirez isn't dead since Dent only knocked her out. It's possible that Gordon presumes her to be dead, or it could be that the fifth victim he refers to is the black cop from the hospital. The Joker killed him but Gordon may think that Dent did it in order to escape.