Fant4stic "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

[JP]

All Cracked did was label incredibly racist statements as racist.

 

[Zarex]

I think it is extremely risky for FOX to radically change the appearance of a character that, despite being depicted as both android and human, has kept the same general look since before WW II. On the other hand, I was giddy seeing what may be the first live action appearance of Luke Cage in the Agents of SHIELD teaser. It is indeed possible to want both "straight from the comics" interpretations of beloved characters and more minority representation as well.

 

[Mad Ones]

Lumping all people who have a problem with this casting, or simply feel that there are other actors better, and waiting to see if they are up for the role as well with the cracked article is pretty dumb...

But most of the comments aren't "I think he's a bad actor so I don't want him cast." This thread is full of "I'm a purist and changing the race fundamentally changes the character" or "black superheores would never be cast as white!" Which are racist statements. The only thing we really know about Michael B. Jordan is that he has already played a character quite similar to Johnny in Chronicle, and he has a working relationship with the director. So all this drama and debate isn't because of his acting ability.

 

[Bren]

So... assuming acting quality remains the criteria; if I prefer the idea of a white comic book character being played by a white actor, and a black comic book character being played by a black actor... What does that make me?

Racist, Purerist, Naive, Stupid, Unreasonable...

 

[JP]

Some of you really don't see what was blatantly racist about the specific comments Cracked pointed out?

 

[Human Torch]

By the way, hilarious example of purism right there. Tony Stark isn't a likeable dick in the comics.

I was using the line to paraphrase the old truism "If it ain't broke,don't fix it."

 

[Human Torch]

Johnny Storm's race carries just as much impact as an historical figure does.

To a purist,it does.But,as I said before,the knee jerk reaction will be to belittle that position.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

To a purist,it does.But,as I said before,the knee jerk reaction will be to belittle that position.

So a playboy who catches flames, dates a lot of women, has a hot smart sister who he loves dearly, and fights crime? It's just as important he be white in an adaption.

As Malcolm X being an African American muslim who fought for his rights BASED on his skin color in an adaption of his life?

.......Alrighty then.

 

[Spider - Man]

Some of you really don't see what was blatantly racist about the specific comments Cracked pointed out?

I made a statement that if a black person thinks it is wrong for a white person to be upset over having the race of their favorite white character changed but would, themselves, be upset if the race of a black character was changed, then it is a double standard. It got quoted in the cracked article. Is that one of the 'specific' comments you are referring to? I personally believe thinking that isn't a double standard is racist.

Would you be happy if they made the Thing purple or the Hulk Yellow in the next Avengers? What if they had Sue played by a 7 foot tall brunette who was a phenomenal actress? Would these changes still allow the characters to be who they are supposed to be?

Do you believe that changing Johnny's race changes his character or not?

 

[Jennifer Walters]

It doesn't.

Sue could be brunette and tall and still be herself as long as she is smart, resourceful, cunning, powerful, and a wonderful sister and mother. The blonde part of her only plays on an ages old ''Hahah blonde women are dumb joke." That could easily go and she'd still be the same person.

And The Thing and Hulk are monsters. I'm not even touching the hidden ignorance there of comparing their skin tone to that of Michael B. Jordan's.

 

[Human Torch]

So a playboy who catches flames, dates a lot of women, has a hot smart sister who he loves dearly, and fights crime? It's just as important he be white in an adaption.

As Malcolm X being an African American muslim who fought for his rights BASED on his skin color in an adaption of his life?

.......Alrighty then.

Basically,by your reasoning ANY white character can be race changed,because "being white" isn't part and parcel of their character or history.

That's what make's the argument unfair.We can't have the World's Greatest Actor play Black Panther if he's white,because that betrays the core concept of the character,but any other white character (be it Batman,Spider-Man,Superman,Etc) doesn't have a justifiable reason to retain their original identity.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Black Panther has strong ties into an African country he runs as king and was born in.

There's a huge difference in changing his race and changing Johnny's race.

If you really want to argue that at least use Luke Cage who is created pretty much as an everyman who became a superhero like Peter Parker, but he just happens to be black.

 

[Spider - Man]

It doesn't.

Sue could be brunette and tall and still be herself as long as she is smart, resourceful, cunning, powerful, and a wonderful sister and mother. The blonde part of her only plays on an ages old ''Hahah blonde women are dumb joke." That could easily go and she'd still be the same person.

I was actually focusing more on the SEVEN FOOT tall part. It has to do with a change in the look of the dynamic of the team - having a female team member who is noticeably taller than the men.

And The Thing and Hulk are monsters. I'm not even touching the hidden ignorance there of comparing their skin tone to that of Michael B. Jordan's.

Again, it is about the visual, not about monster skin tone versus actor skin tone. I think the whole point went straight over you. Or perhaps you just misinterpretted it to suit your own position in this discussion which is probably the problem with most of the discord in this whole thread.

 

[Spider - Man]

Black Panther has strong ties into an African country he runs as king and was born in.

There's a huge difference in changing his race and changing Johnny's race.

If you really want to argue that at least use Luke Cage who is created pretty much as an everyman who became a superhero like Peter Parker, but he just happens to be black.

Torch beat me to it but he gets the point. It has been said in this thread that changing Johnny's race changes NOTHING but his skin color. That is basically saying that white people and black people are exactly the same. That would be fine with me as long as there is consistency across the board. BUt it has been argued that if you change a black character to a white one, you effectively remove part of what makes him who he is - his 'blackness' for lack of a better word, his culture, his history.

My point is it is racist and insulting to white people to infer that they have no history or culture to undo by changing the race of a white character while insisting the same doesn't apply to black characters. If making a black character white 'takes away' who he is, then changing the race of a white character to black must by the same law, 'put in place' who they are and that is effectively changing what was there in the first place. Do you disagree? If so, explain.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Hey cool I'm on there!

Did a great job making those anonymous and unbiased. That's some real classy journalism, Cracked.

Damn! That cracked article ripped you a new one.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

That's because this world even in 2013 is a straight white man's world. There is nothing uniquely different about being a white straight man that makes you suffer from being different. Because you're the default. You're the ''normal."

Basically women & minorities have a culture and problems that stems from the struggle they face that white straight men just don't face, simply for not being a woman, gay, bi, black, Asian, transgender, Muslim, etc, etc.

And that is the problem in changing a pre-established minority character. You risk taking away important facets of their struggle that you simply don't by changing the skin tone of a white character.

That's not racist. It's the sad truth.

 

[Human Torch]

Torch beat me to it but he gets the point. It has been said in this thread that changing Johnny's race changes NOTHING but his skin color. That is basically saying that white people and black people are exactly the same. That would be fine with me as long as there is consistency across the board. BUt it has been argued that if you change a black character to a white one, you effectively remove part of what makes him who he is - his 'blackness' for lack of a better word, his culture, his history.

My point is it is racist and insulting to white people to infer that they have no history or culture to undo by changing the race of a white character while insisting the same doesn't apply to black characters. If making a black character white 'takes away' who he is, then changing the race of a white character to black must by the same law, 'put in place' who they are and that is effectively changing what was there in the first place. Do you disagree? If so, explain.

As usual,you made the point even better than I did,Spidey.

 

[Human Torch]

The funny thing (if I can call it "funny") is that this is likely much ado over nothing.It's only a rumor,which is only floating around to give some pub to a film 90% of fandom would rather see made by Marvel.

 

[bubbadoom]

And The Thing and Hulk are monsters. I'm not even touching the hidden ignorance there of comparing their skin tone to that of Michael B. Jordan's.

And this is why Ben Grimm will never be played by a black person - can you imagine the "racism" some would read into his transforming into a "monster"...

 

[Spider - Man]

That's because this world even in 2013 is a straight white man's world. There is nothing uniquely different about being a white straight man that makes you suffer from being different. Because you're the default. You're the ''normal."

Basically women & minorities have a culture and problems that stems from the struggle they face that white straight men just don't face, simply for not being a woman, gay, bi, black, Asian, transgender, Muslim, etc, etc.

And that is the problem in changing a pre-established minority character. You risk taking away important facets of their struggle that you simply don't by changing the skin tone of a white character.

That's not racist. It's the sad truth.

And you would obviously know about a white straight man's struggles because you're straight and white? Otherwise that was a horribly racist remark, probably the most blatant one uttered in this thread so far. The leader of the country's a black dude, friend.

And again, it can't be both ways. Everyone in favor of the change in this thread agree on one thing - the days of 'all white' is over - accept it or get outta the way. Some typical comments include:

Now that we've grown as a society why couldn't some characters - whose race has absolutely nothing to do with their character they are just simply white just because that was the default - be African-American or other races if the actor or actress is good enough for the role?
Even you said: “And do you know why he's white? Because he was made in 1961. That's the only reason he's white. It's literally the least important detail about any of the Fantastic Four characters.”
And
“Yes, but they also make more gay, black, lesbian, Asian, Mexican, bisexual, transgender and general minority characters in 2013, because the times have changed and people are more accepting of that and less afraid of that character not being successful simply because of the color of their skin or their sexuality. That simply wasn't the case in 1961 so the default was white. The default is still white, but we're more accepting and step away from that WAY more.”
So don't in one post state how far we've come and then turn around and try to make it sound like we're still in the 60s. You can't have it both ways only choosing which to emphasize when it most fits your point.

Again your whole premise is insulting and racist whether you realize it or not.

 

[Mad Ones]

Haven't you guys ever heard of the invisible backpack or white straight privilege? I can't even believe some of what I'm hearing.

 

[spidergeek232]

Can someone post a link to the Cracked article, please? I'd like to read it.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

As soon as you can tell me one thing that white straight men suffer from that comes from the fact that they are white in skin tone or straight and date women.

Then I'll call myself a racist.

But until then...

Yeah, standing by that comment, because it's the truth. A white straight guy will NEVER know the struggles of a minority culture. Simply because he doesn't have them. All of a white straight dude's struggles comes from ulterior things. Like being poor, etc, etc.

Not the fact that they are white or straight.

Oh, by the way white GAY man here. Not that it has anything at all to do with this conversation or the Human Torch.

 

[Spider - Man]

Haven't you guys ever heard of the invisible backpack or white straight privilege? I can't even believe some of what I'm hearing.

Yeah, its a load. I live in a nice neighborhood and I've worked hard to acquire everything I have. My neighbors on either side are black, great guys. We exchange gifts every Christmas and cook out a lot in the summer. One drives a Mercedes and the other a BMW. I drive an Acura. One is retired executive from McDonald's and the other works at IBM. Both, I'm sure, have/make more money that me. Far from resenting, I am very happy for them. Either of them would tell you to stick that 'white straight privaledge' straight up your ass, victim.

 

[roach]

Can someone post a link to the Cracked article, please? I'd like to read it.

If you go to cracked.com you can find it...it's a new article...there are bad words in it and can't be posted here