Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

Totaaaallly came out of nowhere. :o

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“Those who have wronged me.” But also thousands more too, including a lot of women and children and the downtrodden who I was trying to free and whose chains I was trying to break. Those who would have likely been supporting me. Oh and after I’ve won and everyone has surrendered anyway. So your fate won’t be much different if you’re Cersei Lannister and execute those dearest to me, or just some kid who just said his first words.
 
“Those who have wronged me.” But also thousands more too, including a lot of women and children and the downtrodden who I was trying to free and whose chains I was trying to break. Those who would have likely been supporting me. Oh and after I’ve won and everyone has surrendered anyway. So your fate won’t be much different if you’re Cersei Lannister and execute those dearest to me, or just some kid who just said his first words.
There's also the line about burning cities to the ground. She probably meant everyone. Not just those giving orders. Which is still ruthless as hell no matter how you look at it.
 
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Did D&D not say she's not her father? There's a plain as day difference between being reckless when fighting your enemy and straight up massacring innocent people on purpose. Anyone defending not even the build up to it but the sheer logic of what they chose to do with Daenerys is as mad as the mad king himself in my view.
Never happened in history. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden to name a few... Fear campaign. Merciless and indiscriminate.
 
Here’s the thing with the Mad Queen debate.

Was it foreshadowed? Yes, absolutely. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who didn’t think it was a possibility. Was it earned? No, not at all.

Now, before we start listing the brutal things Danny has done, remember we are not judging her by 2019 morals. In terms of a conqueror in Westeros, before last Episode, nothing she had done was out of the realm of what conquering monarchs do.

Which is why it seemed strange when suddenly characters in the show were treating her as extreme. That attitude hasn’t been justified yet.

We needed more time to justify the turn, which is why it felt so shallow. The idea of the turn was fine, the execution was lacking compared to the standards the show itself has set over multiple seasons.
 
I apologize for misunderstanding you. I don't think it is MORE innovative and challenging, but it is continuing the tradition. The problem is now the writers don't have Martin's books to justify their decisions. If past events that Martin wrote had happened in today's climate without being an adaptation, I'd bet dollars to donuts the reaction would be the same.

Again, we all agree that she lost it too quickly due to the truncated season, but it's not like this hasn't been foreshadowed from VERY early on in the series.
In addition to the bad writing, the problem I think is all the red herrings & subversion too. Too much and people don't know what to believe.
 
Here's an interesting subreddit, All of the foreshadowing that lead up to last night's episode
(bolding mine):

• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)
• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a ****ing dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”

And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.

She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.
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Video compilation of all of Daenerys & dragon "kills" seasons 1-7:



The execution of the Tarlys, and of the Mereenese nobleman by feeding him to her dragons under the pyramid were unnecessary, and excessively cruel. The latter especially since Varys later discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were funded by slavers from Yunkai, Astapor, and Volantis, not those noblemen.

There has always been a duality to Daenerys' character -- a kind compassionate side ("Myhsa"), and a very ruthless side to her --more in line with her Targaryen heritage. While she was certainly a better person than her brother Viserys, she was still essentially raised by him, grew up in his shadow and that had to have some impact on character.

All she needed was the right number of things occurring in rapid succession to succumb to her darker side more fully, which was always there. So was the inbred, Targaryen propensity to madness --just waiting to manifest under the right conditions. The writers really rushed the catalysts, but they are there: rejections, betrayals, losses.

Consider also that there have been cases of people who seemed "normal" but went "postal" -on a murder spree, their inability to handle negative events having built up in a pressure cooker. People who thought they "knew" them were mystified by their sudden rampage.

There was no getting around this, the destruction of King's Landing was a 'fixed fate', foreseen through Dany's vision of the "snowy" ("ashy"?) Great Hall in ruins in the House of the Undying in Season 2. Bran also saw the same ruined Hall in Season 4 along with the shadow of the dragon over King's Landing. And, even more significantly, Bran saw the dragon shadow again in Season Six, this time juxtaposed with the Mad King, pyromancers, and wildfire explosions.



Most believed the wildfire component of those visions came to fruition with the Sept explosion, but Dany detonated her father's other old caches of wildfire that were hidden around the city.

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"You've heard of wildfire? The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancers place caches of wildfire all over the city. Beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself."

―Ser Jaime Lannister Se3Ep5 "Kissed by Fire"
 
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Did you miss the line about burning cities to the ground?
Who was she threatening here? A 6 year old kid that she’s trying to save or someone who she sees as having wronged her who the rest of the quotes are in reference to?

‘Turn us away and suffer the consequences. We are capable of and willing to burn cities to get to you so don’t take us lightly.’ Ok, credible threat. Maybe this girl has what it takes to actually get on to the Iron Throne.

‘We will lay waste to cities.’ Other cities? What for exactly? If so be my guest. My city? Well I don’t care too much after I’ve been burnt myself, and I was enslaving them anyway lol.

Not sure which version you got from that.
 
God I hate this debate.

D&D said there wasn't meant to be foreshadowing and Dany's assault on King's Landing was completely spontaneous. Why are people still trying to come up with clues?
 
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Here's an interesting subreddit, All of the foreshadowing that lead up to last night's episode
(bolding mine):

• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)
• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a ****ing dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”

And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.

She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.
__________________________________________


Video compilation of all of Daenerys & dragon "kills" seasons 1-7:



The execution of the Tarlys, and of the Mereenese nobleman by feeding him to her dragons under the pyramid were unnecessary, and excessively cruel. The latter especially since Varys later discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were funded by slavers from Yunkai, Astapor, and Volantis, not those noblemen.

There has always been a duality to Daenerys' character -- a kind compassionate side ("Myhsa"), and a very ruthless side to her --more in line with her Targaryen heritage. While she was certainly a better person than her brother Viserys, she was still essentially raised by him, grew up in his shadow and that had to have some impact on character.

All she needed was the right number of things occurring in rapid succession to succumb to her darker side more fully, which was always there. So was the inbred, Targaryen propensity to madness --just waiting to manifest under the right conditions. The writers really rushed the catalysts, but they are there: rejections, betrayals, losses.

Consider also that there have been cases of people who seemed "normal" but went "postal" -on a murder spree, their inability to handle negative events having built up in a pressure cooker. People who thought they "knew" them were mystified by their sudden rampage.

There was no getting around this, the destruction of King's Landing was a 'fixed fate', foreseen through Dany's vision of the "snowy" ("ashy"?) Great Hall in ruins in the House of the Undying in Season 2. Bran also saw the same ruined Hall in Season 4 along with the shadow of the dragon over King's Landing. And, even more significantly, Bran saw the dragon shadow again in Season Six, this time juxtaposed with the Mad King, pyromancers, and wildfire explosions.



Most believed the wildfire component of those visions came to fruition with the Sept explosion, but Dany detonated her father's other old caches of wildfire that were hidden around the city.

tumblr_prfkmqEesl1wteim4o6_500.gif


"You've heard of wildfire? The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancers place caches of wildfire all over the city. Beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself."

―Ser Jaime Lannister Se3Ep5 "Kissed by Fire"


I don’t think most people have an issue with Dany turning heel...

...just the awful speed at which the change was arrived at which made it seem unbelievable and more than just a bit stupid in its execution.

And this absolutely NO RELATION to the news that D&B are making the new Star Wars trilogy. ABSOLUTELY NONE.
 
There's also the line about burning cities to the ground. She probably meant everyone. Not just those giving orders. Which is still ruthless as hell no matter how you look at it.
Sorry, just saw your edit. Can ignore my previous post then.

I thought she did mean everyone. But only as part of a threat when she was desperate and not in a great position. I would say something along the same lines in that situation. I have been looking for a genuinely mad act since people first started talking about the Mad Queen seasons ago, but in all the seasons until this episode, all I’ve seen Dany make are some ruthless decisions needed to win the Throne (that actually made me believe that she was capable) and mistakes with her advisers. The kind of hints towards a Cersei level madness where she could justify her end goal of freeing the people by burning a load of innocents put in her way by Cersei first. Not the next level outright madness of burning everyone else after she’s achieved her goal. Zero hint of that in any Dany screen time and I’ve been looking since first reading speculation/spoilers during my season 1 binge (when season 3 was coming out).
 
Sorry, just saw your edit. Can ignore my previous post then.

I thought she did mean everyone. But only as part of a threat when she was desperate and not in a great position. I would say something along the same lines in that situation. I have been looking for a genuinely mad act since people first started talking about the Mad Queen seasons ago, but in all the seasons until this episode, all I’ve seen Dany make are some ruthless decisions needed to win the Throne (that actually made me believe that she was capable) and mistakes with her advisers. The kind of hints towards a Cersei level madness where she could justify her end goal of freeing the people by burning a load of innocents put in her way by Cersei first. Not the next level outright madness of burning everyone else after she’s achieved her goal. Zero hint of that in any Dany screen time and I’ve been looking since first reading speculation/spoilers during my season 1 binge (when season 3 was coming out).
I'm not exactly convinced that burning KL was outright madness and not an extremely ruthless way of achieving the power she considers her by right. But given how the show can't make it's own mind and rushes things, it's certainly open for interpretations hence this debate. I mean, at one point she speaks about selfless ideals, at other rants about what was taken from her and how she intends to take the throne back by fire and blood.

Would you consider all those hints in seasons 1-7 a solid ground to build up Dany the tyrant?
 
God I hate this debate.

D&D said there wasn't meant to be foreshadowing and Dany's assault on King's Landing was completely spontaneous. Why are people still trying to come up with clues?

They did? Well, D&D are sloppy and don't remember things in their own shows. Melisandre took a bath without her collar in Season 4 but they decided in Season 6 that it causes her glamor. Tyrion just told Cersei she's not a monster, but in Season 7 he told Jon she's a monster.

And yes Dany's assault on KL was a fated outcome that was explicitly and vividly foreshadowed in visions as I described above.
 
I don’t think most people have an issue with Dany turning heel...

...just the awful speed at which the change was arrived at which made it seem unbelievable and more than just a bit stupid in its execution.

And this absolutely NO RELATION to the news that D&B are making the new Star Wars trilogy. ABSOLUTELY NONE.
Yeah. I wanted her to be more ruthless as I didn’t find it at all believable that she could win a war like this against someone far more experienced and willing to sacrifice anyone and do whatever necessary to win, with the same morals she had when starting the mission. I expected some of that Mad Queen to be needed to achieve her victory, and it would have been interesting to me to see the debates of did she go too far burning those innocents who Cersei put in her way to win. Was it too great a cost to free future generations etc.

That final act is on a completely different level though. Half of Westeros will be ruthless to gain something or even to protect their kids, but even the worst of the characters we saw, the genuinely evil ones don’t take out thousands of innocents for no reason at all. This kind of total madness isn’t even that interesting to me as there’s no moral debate going on in her head anymore. Not really anything to regret or much of a crime being committed if you are genuinely insane now.
 
I don’t think most people have an issue with Dany turning heel...

Exactly! The idea of Dany turning into the Mad Queen is quite interesting and has potential. It could be a very sad and tragic ending to see Dany's downfall like that. But the execution was awful.

That's why now I'm excited for the books. I can't see Martin rushing her development like that.
 
And yes Dany's assault on KL was a fated outcome that was explicitly and vividly foreshadowed in visions as I described above.

No it wasn't. The writers said themselves it was spontaneous. Dany doesn't murder innocent women and children.

Also, I remembered incorrectly. They said Dany isn't her father.
 
I'm not exactly convinced that burning KL was outright madness and not an extremely ruthless way of achieving the power she considers her by right. But given how the show can't make it's own mind and rushes things, it's certainly open for interpretations hence this debate. I mean, at one point she speaks about selfless ideals, at other rants about what was taken from her and how she intends to take the throne back by fire and blood.

Would you consider all those hints in seasons 1-7 a solid ground to build up Dany the tyrant?
I guess I hadn’t fully considered that. :up: That angle at least makes a little more sense to me on first thought. I don’t think there’s much point to outright madness. It’s like a balrog coming in and laying waste to the city out of the blue.

Dany the tyrant, yes. Maybe you need to be a tyrant to win the Iron Throne no matter how honest and genuine your intentions are when starting out. That I am much more comfortable with. We saw how easily and quickly a battle-experienced but politically-naive Ned Stark exited the show.
 
Exactly! The idea of Dany turning into the Mad Queen is quite interesting and has potential. It could be a very sad and tragic ending to see Dany's downfall like that. But the execution was awful.

That's why now I'm excited for the books. I can't see Martin rushing her development like that.
Unless he pulls a D&D and makes it 1 book with 6 slightly longer than average chapters just to get it finished. :D: :csad:
 
No it wasn't. The writers said themselves it was spontaneous. Dany doesn't murder innocent women and children.

Also, I remembered incorrectly. They said Dany isn't her father.

It was foreshadowed in the visions shown in Season 2,4,6, linked to above. It was therefore a fated outcome.

And look at Jaime's quote about Aerys burning lords he didn't like. Dany burned Randyl and Dickon for not kneeling. She burned an innocent Mereenese nobleman to inspire fear. She threatened to completely destroy the other cities in Slaver's Bay (men, women, and children) and had to be talked out of it. The seeds were always there.
 
Unless he pulls a D&D and makes it 1 book with 6 slightly longer than average chapters just to get it finished. :D: :csad:

God knows when we'll see the last book. 5 years to write the 4th, 6 to write the 5th, 10 (or more, who knows) to write the 6th... 15 for the last one?
 
It was foreshadowed in the visions shown in Season 2,4,6, linked to above. It was therefore a fated outcome.

And look at Jaime's quote about Aerys burning lords he didn't like. Dany burned Randyl and Dickon for not kneeling. She burned an innocent Mereenese nobleman to inspire fear. She threatened to completely destroy the other cities in Slaver's Bay (men, women, and children) and had to be talked out of it. The seeds were always there.

Randyll and Dickon took up arms against her and committed treason. Any other king/lord would execute them.

Again, people are looking for clues because Dany was meant to be a Mad Queen. But, realistically, the things she did wouldn't be out of character for any lord or king. We're told what the outcome is and now people are trying to find that series of events that led up to it.

It's a common psychological phenomenon. It happened after Pearl Habour. It's easy to see the events that lead up to a particular outcome once the outcome has happened.
 
Everyone tries to paint Dany's actions in the full series, but completely ignores the last two episodes. Who tries to paint Dany's madness in the most sexist of ways. This season is the most relevant to her actions. Some things needed to be spelled out. Because yes, completely believable a heel turn was coming if something stood in her way. And the biggest obstacle at the moment, was Jon. If maybe they hadn't obliterated King's Landing's defenses in 5 minutes flat, then yeah, I can see the burning of the city.

But a city that had surrendered? Even the quote that you seem to be talking about directly contradicts her actions.
 

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