Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - - - - - Part 23

[Marvolo]

GRRM actually revealed this one year ago, but no one took him seriously.

https://ventrellaquest.com/tag/george-r-r-martin-elevator-story/

Well it was posted on a blog I doubt many have even heard of. Hard for it to get much traction on there.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

What if Benjen was marked by the Night's King just as Bran was, but he deliberately kept himself far from the Wall, knowing that passing through it being marked would stop it's magic from working??

Yeah I know, super tinfoilery and Im with fever.... Dont mind me ��

 

[Reek]

Well it's not impossible... there has to be some reason he hasn't come back yet...

 

[The Apocalypse]

Well it's not impossible... there has to be some reason he hasn't come back yet...

Yeah, it'll be pretty random to just have to him show up out of nowhere without a reason. I think I said in the episode thread but if all the NK had to do is mark someone, why hasn't he done so yet? There must be more to it.

 

[Reek]

 

[Drizzle]

I could totally see the Night's King bringing Hodor back as a wight. He'd be foolish to pass up someone that big and powerful for his army. And it would shatter our hearts even more.

 

[Reek]

He was ripped to pieces... there might be 10 mini hodors joining the army of the dead

 

[Iceman]

I could totally see the Night's King bringing Hodor back as a wight. He'd be foolish to pass up someone that big and powerful for his army. And it would shatter our hearts even more.

Can they turn Giants?

 

[Victarion]

It'd make more sense to try salvaging the raven's corpse. Seems like there's a wealth of intel if the Night King can warg him.

 

[Iceman]

Yes. They'd probably win if he'd done that.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Yeah, it'll be pretty random to just have to him show up out of nowhere without a reason. I think I said in the episode thread but if all the NK had to do is mark someone, why hasn't he done so yet? There must be more to it.

Well... Maybe the Night King was a Stark (ancestor) and the only ones he can mark are Starks (?)

So he marked Benjen and now Bran ???

 

[Infinity9999x]

Finally got around to the episode...and damn. Even knowing the Hold the Door twist, it was still emotional as heck. Overall, really good EP.

I see what some are saying about the Kingsmoot, and I'm bummed they didn't continue the creepy mystic Euron thing...but it's definitely not as bad as Dorne. At least it still makes sense within the GOT world, and if I hadn't read the books I would have found it perfectly acceptable given what we know of the Iron Islands. And honestly, I was so incredibly annoyed by the Kingsmoot chapters in the books, and the fact that GRRM decided to introduce an entire cast of characters after killing off a large number of characters I had read for 3 books...I really didn't mind that they cut it down like crazy. I thought it was all a bit of a waste of time in the books to be honest. Sure, Victorian was cool and all...but I didn't care. His plot took up time from other characters I would have preferred to read, and had been following since the first book, and in general I was just annoyed that GRRM decided to introduce 500 subplots in books 4 and 5 instead of move towards the end game of the whole series. Especially since book 3 gave you the impression that was what was going to happen.

So while I think Euron could have been better, calling it Dorne is a HUGE over exaggeration. They hit the main points of what was honestly bloated chapters that I felt were a bit needles, and kept the focus on the characters we cared about and have been following since the beginning. I say bravo for that.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Finally got around to the episode...and damn. Even knowing the Hold the Door twist, it was still emotional as heck. Overall, really good EP.

I see what some are saying about the Kingsmoot, and I'm bummed they didn't continue the creepy mystic Euron thing...but it's definitely not as bad as Dorne. At least it still makes sense within the GOT world, and if I hadn't read the books I would have found it perfectly acceptable given what we know of the Iron Islands. And honestly, I was so incredibly annoyed by the Kingsmoot chapters in the books, and the fact that GRRM decided to introduce an entire cast of characters after killing off a large number of characters I had read for 3 books...I really didn't mind that they cut it down like crazy. I thought it was all a bit of a waste of time in the books to be honest. Sure, Victorian was cool and all...but I didn't care. His plot took up time from other characters I would have preferred to read, and had been following since the first book, and in general I was just annoyed that GRRM decided to introduce 500 subplots in books 4 and 5 instead of move towards the end game of the whole series. Especially since book 3 gave you the impression that was what was going to happen.

So while I think Euron could have been better, calling it Dorne is a HUGE over exaggeration. They hit the main points of what was honestly bloated chapters that I felt were a bit needles, and kept the focus on the characters we cared about and have been following since the beginning. I say bravo for that.

It's pretty clear to me that Euron isn't a side story in the novels, he's part of the main event. His appearance was foreshadowed as early as the first novel, with bigger indications in second, and then tiny hints in the third before his full introduction in the fourth. Everything about the character and how they speak of him and his destiny with Daenerys indicates that this guy has a massive role to play in the War of Ice and Fire. The show gave us none of that, and it's clear that they only added him as a last minute means to give Theon something to do after they reshuffled things in the North.

The thing is, he's just another dumb, uncouth Ironborn villain of the week when he should be someone that replaces the Boltons as the major villain going forward. It's incredibly underwhelming, and frankly a waste of screentime.

 

[Leenie]

As a casual viewer of the show, I have to say that this episode was pretty great, actually.

 

[Infinity9999x]

It's pretty clear to me that Euron isn't a side story in the novels, he's part of the main event. His appearance was foreshadowed as early as the first novel, with bigger indications in second, and then tiny hints in the third before his full introduction in the fourth. Everything about the character and how they speak of him and his destiny with Daenerys indicates that this guy has a massive role to play in the War of Ice and Fire. The show gave us none of that, and it's clear that they only added him as a last minute means to give Theon something to do after they reshuffled things in the North.

The thing is, he's just another dumb, uncouth Ironborn villain of the week when he should be someone that replaces the Boltons as the major villain going forward. It's incredibly underwhelming, and frankly a waste of screentime.

He was foreshadowed...a bit. But he still didn't show up until the 4th book in a series where we read three books of all 800+ pages. And when he finally did show up, he didn't do much. If that's GRRM's way of setting up a big bad...it's not a very good one. I had zero interest in Euron in the books. I thought he was a bit creepy seeming, but whenever any of the Iron Born popped up in Book 4, it just annoyed me that I had to slog through one of their chapters instead of reading one of the characters I had been following for 3000 pages.

Yeah, he's a basic Iron Born villain thus far, and that's not terribly interesting, but they kept it short, and kept the focus on characters I actually cared about, and I welcomed the change. And even though it wasn't all that gripping, it wasn't so bad that it became a flat out parody of what it was in the books. It was an incredibly abbreviated and mundane version. Not a very exciting one, but it wasn't filled with writing that made me think horny preteen boys playing a D&D game came up with it like the Sandsnakes did.

And maybe I'm being too hard on the Iron Born plot in the books...but honestly, after the emotional devastation that was Storm of Swords, I put it down and actually said aloud, "Well...at least they'll be less characters to keep track of." Once I picked up book 4 and started reading, I wanted to chuck the novel across the room. The pacing of books 4 and 5 are when GRRM started to show Robert Jordan tendencies. Luckily GRRM hasn't gotten to the point where he's written four full novels where practically nothing happens, but he's teetering towards that edge because he's getting too lost in his world and losing track of his overall story.

The show is focusing on the overall story, and while some things are rushed because of it, overall I'd take that over what I often feel like is a somewhat meandering directionlessness that started to creep into GRRM's writing during books 4 and 5.

 

[Infinity9999x]

As a casual viewer of the show, I have to say that this episode was pretty great, actually.

That's my point. Enron is more interesting in the books, and a better villain, but if you haven't read the books what was in the show wasn't bad. It just wasn't as interesting as who he was in the books.

Also, completely unrelated, but did Bran actually somehow give Hodor his original mind back at the end there? As in, fully functioning brain that wasn't damaged by the seizure? I only ask because I thought Hodor's eyes stayed white the entire time Bran warned into him and controlled him before, but his eyes remained normal after briefly turning white in this episode. (And maybe I'm just misremembering, I wasn't sure if his eyes wen't back to normal or they were a different color).

But it almost seemed like somehow Bran restored Hodor to a fully functioning man t the end instead of controlling him, and that the cognizant Hodor choose to sacrifice himself.

 

[Reek]

but if you haven't read the books what was in the show wasn't bad.

thats basically what i have been saying to other book readers... consider the show and not think of the books and it isn't so bad... its bad... dont get this twisted... but its not ****ing Dorne. I don't care what anyone says... I'd rather spend a whole season in Qarth than see another second of dorne.

 

[Iceman]

Is the criticism of Dorne just based on what we get in the TV show or that it doesn't live up to Dorne in the books?

 

[Roose Bolton]

He was foreshadowed...a bit. But he still didn't show up until the 4th book in a series where we read three books of all 800+ pages. And when he finally did show up, he didn't do much. If that's GRRM's way of setting up a big bad...it's not a very good one. I had zero interest in Euron in the books. I thought he was a bit creepy seeming, but whenever any of the Iron Born popped up in Book 4, it just annoyed me that I had to slog through one of their chapters instead of reading one of the characters I had been following for 3000 pages.

Yeah, he's a basic Iron Born villain thus far, and that's not terribly interesting, but they kept it short, and kept the focus on characters I actually cared about, and I welcomed the change. And even though it wasn't all that gripping, it wasn't so bad that it became a flat out parody of what it was in the books. It was an incredibly abbreviated and mundane version. Not a very exciting one, but it wasn't filled with writing that made me think horny preteen boys playing a D&D game came up with it like the Sandsnakes did.

And maybe I'm being too hard on the Iron Born plot in the books...but honestly, after the emotional devastation that was Storm of Swords, I put it down and actually said aloud, "Well...at least they'll be less characters to keep track of." Once I picked up book 4 and started reading, I wanted to chuck the novel across the room. The pacing of books 4 and 5 are when GRRM started to show Robert Jordan tendencies. Luckily GRRM hasn't gotten to the point where he's written four full novels where practically nothing happens, but he's teetering towards that edge because he's getting too lost in his world and losing track of his overall story.

The show is focusing on the overall story, and while some things are rushed because of it, overall I'd take that over what I often feel like is a somewhat meandering directionlessness that started to creep into GRRM's writing during books 4 and 5.

I'd say he was foreshadowed more than "a bit", as Dany's entire arc with the Warlocks was basically a precursor to his appearance and his role in her life. The reason why he wasn't introduced before Tywin Lannister is pretty simple IMO; Tywin was the purely human/political big bad of the first part of the story and he had to be the big thing the Starks, Baratheons, and even his own children had to struggle against.

But we're now at the point where things are shifting to the magical and Euron is a reflection of that, he's somewhat familiar in the sense that he's a Greyjoy from a familiar place in Westeros, but he's clearly connected to a lot of supernatural goings on and will be important for the story as it moves from the transition stage of human v human, into human v undead. Everything in the books points to him being the last great challenge for Dany and Tyrion and most everyone below the Neck and in the East. That's a massive character, not just "Oh hey my long lost uncle is back". It was akin to this thing coming from across the sea with lovecraftian intentions for some of these characters that we have, as you so eloquently stated, "followed for 3000 pages".

And the way I see it, Euron in his show depiction was getting towards the Sand Snake area. You have a character in the books who talks of madness and horror and his megalomaniacal schemes for the world, yet in the show he's a guy who couldn't stop making dick jokes and spouts off lines like "Let's go kill my niece and nephew." It's such a poor depiction, especially when the major aspect of the character is how utterly unlike the Ironborn he is. Their culture is based on apathy towards the suffering of others, whereas Euron is a sadist who deliberately revels in it. He's basically Balon 2.0 here, and it's a wonder why they didn't just make use of Patrick Malahide or alternatively cut the plotline out completely from their version of the show (as it was clear they intended going by Season 4)

It's just a waste, that's what I'm saying. Its a character that has weight and relevance in the books and could have been used beautifully if the show wanted really go there. But they didn't fully commit to the character or the storyline, so we've now got something that honestly feels like an added wrinkle. I mean you're saying that you hated all of the newer material introduced in the 4th and 5th books, well this is basically the same thing only without the proper weight that it has in the book format. The show would have been much better if it just stuck to its guns and went ahead with the streamlined, Daario navy they introduced in Season 4. We've only got something like 17 episodes left to tie things up and this isn't helping things.

 

[Reek]

Is the criticism of Dorne just based on what we get in the TV show or that it doesn't live up to Dorne in the books?

both... but the show was terrible lol

 

[mr. peasant]

I'd say he was foreshadowed more than "a bit", as Dany's entire arc with the Warlocks was basically a precursor to his appearance and his role in her life. The reason why he wasn't introduced before Tywin Lannister is pretty simple IMO; Tywin was the purely human/political big bad of the first part of the story and he had to be the big thing the Starks, Baratheons, and even his own children had to struggle against.

But we're now at the point where things are shifting to the magical and Euron is a reflection of that, he's somewhat familiar in the sense that he's a Greyjoy from a familiar place in Westeros, but he's clearly connected to a lot of supernatural goings on and will be important for the story as it moves from the transition stage of human v human, into human v undead. Everything in the books points to him being the last great challenge for Dany and Tyrion and most everyone below the Neck and in the East. That's a massive character, not just "Oh hey my long lost uncle is back". It was akin to this thing coming from across the sea with lovecraftian intentions for some of these characters that we have, as you so eloquently stated, "followed for 3000 pages".

And the way I see it, Euron in his show depiction was getting towards the Sand Snake area. You have a character in the books who talks of madness and horror and his megalomaniacal schemes for the world, yet in the show he's a guy who couldn't stop making dick jokes and spouts off lines like "Let's go kill my niece and nephew." It's such a poor depiction, especially when the major aspect of the character is how utterly unlike the Ironborn he is. Their culture is based on apathy towards the suffering of others, whereas Euron is a sadist who deliberately revels in it. He's basically Balon 2.0 here, and it's a wonder why they didn't just make use of Patrick Malahide or alternatively cut the plotline out completely from their version of the show (as it was clear they intended going by Season 4)

It's just a waste, that's what I'm saying. Its a character that has weight and relevance in the books and could have been used beautifully if the show wanted really go there. But they didn't fully commit to the character or the storyline, so we've now got something that honestly feels like an added wrinkle. I mean you're saying that you hated all of the newer material introduced in the 4th and 5th books, well this is basically the same thing only without the proper weight that it has in the book format. The show would have been much better if it just stuck to its guns and went ahead with the streamlined, Daario navy they introduced in Season 4. We've only got something like 17 episodes left to tie things up and this isn't helping things.

I feel it's too early to draw any conclusions about Euron's character. Bear in mind that storytelling in books and television is quite different from one another. And as you've admitted yourself. In the books, Euron was foreshadowed several books in advance; giving time to build up his mystique, etc. Meanwhile, the show did not. It's entirely plausible that any magical connection GoT Euron may have is being saved for a surprise reveal somewhere down the line.

Also, a lot of the complaints that people are making about Euron is due to comparisons with what they think is going to happen in the books. Meaning, we don't even know if Book Euron is even going to be doing said things and living up to those expectations.

 

[Marvolo]

Been thinking about the Night's King and Bloodraven's connection.

Isnt there speculation that Bloodraven may have been a Targaryen? And dont people think the Night's King is Brandon Stark the Builder? Well assuming the Raven was a Targaryen and the Night's King was a Stark I find it iteresting that once again the Starks (Jon, potentially Azor Ahai, and Sansa) and Targaryens (Dany) are the key players in this great battle that began thousands of years ago. Its sort of like a repeating rhyme in a song.

But I was also wondering if perhapes Bloodraven wasnt a Targaryen, but was instead a Stark. A Stark that set out to either stop or save a brother or son or father that was corrupted by the Children.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Been thinking about the Night's King and Bloodraven's connection.

Isnt there speculation that Bloodraven may have been a Targaryen? And dont people think the Night's King is Brandon Stark the Builder? Well assuming the Raven was a Targaryen and the Night's King was a Stark I find it iteresting that once again the Starks (Jon, potentially Azor Ahai, and Sansa) and Targaryens (Dany) are the key players in this great battle that began thousands of years ago. Its sort of like a repeating rhyme in a song.

But I was also wondering if perhapes Bloodraven wasnt a Targaryen, but was instead a Stark. A Stark that set out to either stop or save a brother or son or father that was corrupted by the Children.

He is actually a Targaryen, GRRM/Elio/Linda have all confirmed that he's Brynden Rivers from the Dunk and Egg novellas. But you're not completely off though, because Brynden's mother was a Blackwood, who have Stark/First Men heritage.

I feel it's too early to draw any conclusions about Euron's character. Bear in mind that storytelling in books and television is quite different from one another. And as you've admitted yourself. In the books, Euron was foreshadowed several books in advance; giving time to build up his mystique, etc. Meanwhile, the show did not. It's entirely plausible that any magical connection GoT Euron may have is being saved for a surprise reveal somewhere down the line.

Also, a lot of the complaints that people are making about Euron is due to comparisons with what they think is going to happen in the books. Meaning, we don't even know if Book Euron is even going to be doing said things and living up to those expectations.

"Others seek Daenerys."

"Have you seen these others in your fires?" he asked, warily.

"Only their shadows," Moqorro said. "One most of all. A tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood."

"That night her cooks roasted her a kid with dates and carrots, but Dany could only eat a bite of it. The prospect of wrestling with Meereen once more left her feeling weary. Sleep came hard, even when Daario came back, so drunk that he could hardly stand. Beneath her coverlets she tossed and turned, dreaming that Hizdahr was kissing her… but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice. She sat up with her hair disheveled and the bedclothes atangle. Her captain slept beside her, yet she was alone."

These two passages alone, without getting into the Pyat Pree/Quaithe stuff, indicate a few things to me. One, that Dany with her Valyrian gift of prophetic dreams, has seen that Euron is coming for her and has designs on her. Two, there's a strong connotation with ice and cold, ala the Others in how she perceives in her dream which implies Euron has a connection with the White Walkers. Three, that even the Red Priesthood is concerned about Euron's danger to Dany.

I'm not one of those people who thinks GRRM sets out to subvert every single trope in fantasy fiction, and I'm inclined to believe that when he sets up a threat like this that he's not just going to have the guy, say, shived in the back and then die before he achieves anything.

 

[Reek]

and to add

rest of season 6 spoilers

Spoiler

We don't see Euron again this season lol

 

[Victarion]

That's fine. I'm sure I can find him at the local truckstop.