Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Rocco]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Jon killing the Night King was not hinted at, while Arya's was. That's certainly not the case. If anyone was hinted at killing the Night King, it was Jon. Not Arya. Arya's story had nothing to do with the Night King up til now. Absolutely nothing.

It didn't work at all. It wasn't an emotional roller coaster. It was an empty shock moment, that had absolutely no emotional resonance.

Arya killing the White Walkers doesn't add anything to the story. If Clegane had killed the Night King, the white walkers would still be dead, they'd still be done weakening Jon. Arya killing him doesn't add anything uniquely to the story. There's no emotional weight there. It's the same as any random character doing it. Jorah could have killed the NK, and it would have been just as emotionally satisfying, just as narratively consistent.

But if Jon had done it, you would have had a significant moment for him. It would have been a resolution of his main obstacle. As it is, it'll never be resolved. He's not the Prince who was promised. He's just some random guy. And now his purpose is to be King... which he never wanted... ? Cool. So satisfying.

The writers decided that subverting expectations was most important. That's why they had Arya do it. It adds absolutely nothing to the story other than shock value.

Sure you can have it both ways lol. Melisandre said Arya will close blue eyes forever in other words kill someone with blue eyes. No one said specifically that Jon will kill someone with blue eyes forever, if so and Arya kills the night king then sure then I'd call bull****. 3 stare downs is not as strong of a hint my friend lol. We thought it was though understandably. The set up is there in season 3. They didn't care about emotional resonance with the ice zombies lol except kill the night king before they kill us all. It was prince or princess not just prince.

 

[Rocco]

I'll ask this simple question. What makes Arya killing the NK more impactful than Jon killing the NK... other than subverting expectations? What unique value does Arya bring to this moment?

What's more impactful is a matter of preference, expectations, desires, and assumptions. When Melisandre made that callback to season 3 and the moment when Arya attacked and killed the night king, it was shock at first but then the wheels started turning in so many of our heads and we realized that all the hints for her were there and we overlooked it. Yes didn't expect it because when we watch anything that has two characters stare down each other multiple times we think "oh yeah they're going to fight, it's so obvious because that happens a lot in stories doesn't it." For me it would have been more impactful if Jon killed the night king but only because I like Jon more. Arya used her assassin skills and killed the "god of death."
"What do we say to the god of death?"
"Not today"
Arya fulfilled her destiny that yeah we totally overlooked. Many of us, including Jon fans, simply didn't like that or want that. I get it, really I do but man did this episode have me on the edge of my seat. It's been quite the ride.

 

[MaceB]

If there were hints for Arya, then there were certainly hints for Jon.

You're basically admitting that yes... the only value that Arya brings to this scene is the fact that it was a shocking twist. That's poor storytelling. How would you like it if Legolas came when Frodo was on Mt. Doom... took the ring...threw in the volcano.. and then walked off? Would that be a cool twist? It certainly was unexpected. I guess that's all we need huh? Doesn't matter what the twist.. it's GOT... so all twists are good.

 

[MaceB]

Sure you can have it both ways lol. Melisandre said Arya will close blue eyes forever in other words kill someone with blue eyes. No one said specifically that Jon will kill someone with blue eyes forever, if so and Arya kills the night king then sure then I'd call bull****. 3 stare downs is not as strong of a hint my friend lol. We thought it was though understandably. The set up is there in season 3. They didn't care about emotional resonance with the ice zombies lol except kill the night king before they kill us all. It was prince or princess not just prince.

Jon had years of 'hints.' Probably a dozen or so instances of him talking about killing the Night King. So.... why is me taking all that just empty speculation, but taking one scene in which Mellisandre says Arya will kill someone with blue eyes (which she already had twice) this deep and obvious foreshadowing that makes it all okay?

The idea that killing blue eyes is a reference to killing the Night King, when her story was literally never about the Night King... is quite the stretch indeed. We can contort the story however we want to make these assumptions.

If Gendry had killed the Night King, folks would be like, "Oh my god! Gendry did say that Jon's dad and his dad fought side by side and won! It was foreshadowing all along!" No it wasn't. If anyone was foreshadowed to kill the NK, it was Jon. That is absolutely obvious.

 

[Rocco]

If there were hints for Arya, then there were certainly hints for Jon.

You're basically admitting that yes... the only value that Arya brings to this scene is the fact that it was a shocking twist. That's poor storytelling. How would you like it if Legolas came when Frodo was on Mt. Doom... took the ring...threw in the volcano.. and then walked off? Would that be a cool twist? It certainly was unexpected. I guess that's all we need huh? Doesn't matter what the twist.. it's GOT... so all twists are good.

It's a shocking twist, kind of, that works. If it didn't work then I wouldn't be saying it. Jon is my favorite character. I'm surprised it worked for me. If Tolkien explained how that was meant to be through call backs to earlier parts of the story I'd probably be ok with it. However this is not the lord of the rings, it's a different story under different circumstances.

 

[MaceB]

It certainly didn't work for me. Again... it was empty. I get no more emotional resonance from Arya doing it then anybody. This show has explained how it was meant to be too. Same thing.

Any story that upends expectations to neuter the main character and kill the main antagonist in 10 seconds by an unrelated character without warning would be bad. It's bad writing regardless of the genre.

 

[Rocco]

Jon had years of 'hints.' Probably a dozen or so instances of him talking about killing the Night King. So.... why is me taking all that just empty speculation, but taking one scene in which Mellisandre says Arya will kill someone with blue eyes (which she already had twice) this deep and obvious foreshadowing that makes it all okay?

The idea that killing blue eyes is a reference to killing the Night King, when her story was literally never about the Night King... is quite the stretch indeed. We can contort the story however we want to make these assumptions.

If Gendry had killed the Night King, folks would be like, "Oh my god! Gendry did say that Jon's dad and his dad fought side by side and won! It was foreshadowing all along!" No it wasn't. If anyone was foreshadowed to kill the NK, it was Jon. That is absolutely obvious.

Hey I'm not the story teller. I wouldn't have told the story that way, but it is game of thrones. If they wrote a prediction that can be revealed to be more than what we thought it was or what they intended at first for Gendry then the foreshadowing argument would work. I thought they were hints for Jon too, you're not alone. Like I said my friend I preferred Jon did the deed but hey it just doesn't anger me. I get it if it angers you. You really liked that idea of Jon more, me too. What other people with blue eyes did Arya kill? Either way it also included the night king it seems.

 

[Rocco]

It certainly didn't work for me. Again... it was empty. I get no more emotional resonance from Arya doing it then anybody. This show has explained how it was meant to be too. Same thing.

Any story that upends expectations to neuter the main character and kill the main antagonist in 10 seconds by an unrelated character without warning would be bad. It's bad writing regardless of the genre.

Eh, is it really bad writing or is that just our emotions because we hate being manipulated like that which I get. Do you think George will have Jon kill the white walkers in your opinion?

 

[MaceB]

Hey I'm not the story teller. I wouldn't have told the story that way, but it is game of thrones. If they wrote a prediction that can be revealed to be more than what we thought it was or what they intended at first for Gendry then the foreshadowing argument would work. I thought they were hints for Jon too, you're not alone. Like I said my friend I preferred Jon did the deed but hey it just doesn't anger me. I get it if it angers you. You really liked that idea of Jon more, me too.

I'm not arguing over their right to do it. They're the writers... they can do whatever they want. But it's bad writing, regardless of their ownership over the story.

 

[Rocco]

I'm not arguing over their right to do it. They're the writers... they can do whatever they want. But it's bad writing, regardless of their ownership over the story.

Fair enough. Of all things D&D did, the handling of the Dorne story line sucked lol, I thought they made this work even if I didn't want it

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I forgot about the behind the episode thing at the end, so I watched it now. I can't say that I was encouraged by what D&D were saying, as it sounded like they chose the ending of the episode based on what was unexpected rather than talking about the build up of the story. I guess there's a good chance I won't hear any explanation on how the Prince That Was Promised plays into this story.

 

[C. Lee]

So I should be happy with a twist that came out of absolutely no where, that adds absolutely nothing to the overall plot, but takes away seriously from the main character? Cool.

How about.....you can not be happy about it...AND....you can not be totally pissed about it.

 

[Rocco]

If there were hints for Arya, then there were certainly hints for Jon.

You're basically admitting that yes... the only value that Arya brings to this scene is the fact that it was a shocking twist. That's poor storytelling. How would you like it if Legolas came when Frodo was on Mt. Doom... took the ring...threw in the volcano.. and then walked off? Would that be a cool twist? It certainly was unexpected. I guess that's all we need huh? Doesn't matter what the twist.. it's GOT... so all twists are good.

The value it brings is all hope seemed lost and Arya due to her assassin skills killed the night king with a move that's worked before and saved her brother and humanity. Arya would be closer to her brother emotionally than Jon since they're siblings. Jon or Arya doing it regardless works. Clearly not everyone saw these hints or expected Jon to kill the night king. So if that's the case then they weren't that clear he would obviously kill the night king. Hell at the meeting in episode 2 he said they'd have to go for the night king. Jon would try of course but it didn't really matter who killed him. I'm sure Jon will be fine with the fact Arya got him. As long as someone got him that's all Jon cared about. Set up and pay off, not as strong as Jon doing it maybe but it's still set up and pay off and that matters. It could have been better I guess but could have been worse. All twists aren't bad. Since Game of Thrones is overall great and so far all the twists have been good. That's why so many are still loving this damn show even now and there's only 3 episodes left. That's saying something.The Lord of the Rings example isn't good. The situation and circumstances work for one and not the other. Frodo and Sam were way too far away in Mordor on the volcano while everyone else were at the black gate surrounded. Also only Frodo and Sam could resist the ring the longest because they were hobbits.

 

[Rocco]

I'm not arguing over their right to do it. They're the writers... they can do whatever they want. But it's bad writing, regardless of their ownership over the story.

Writers of any story can't always help what others interpret. That's what I meant. If you think that to you there were enough hints enough to make it oh so obvious and so it should have happened.Yet it didn't and you get mad then that's on you really. Not everyone thought it was obvious that Jon would kill the night king. It was never obvious who would really, especially since it was said back in season 7 that it could have been "prince" or "princess that was promised" male or female at least on the show.

 

[Rocco]

So I wonder does George know how he's going to deal with the white walkers in book 6 and 7? If so did he tell D&D? If he did then they either did what he has planned or decided something different. IF that's the case wouldn't they want to make sure it's the same especially if Jon is going to destroy the white walkers in book 6 or 7? Unless of course George never had any intention of having Jon do that. If so then George will receive the same hate as D&D by the end of the story on his end.

 

[Roose Bolton]

The difference is, George isn’t doing the Night King, so the whole plot point of killing him to kill the entire race/Army of the Dead doesn’t seem like it’ll be a thing.

If you look at what D&D said, they didn’t even originally conceive of Arya being the one to end it all. It was something they decided on during the last three years of writing the show with Melisandre’s line from season 3 being a convenient thing that they tied it into.

 

[MaceB]

Writers of any story can't always help what others interpret. That's what I meant. If you think that to you there were enough hints enough to make it oh so obvious and so it should have happened.Yet it didn't and you get mad then that's on you really. Not everyone thought it was obvious that Jon would kill the night king. It was never obvious who would really, especially since it was said back in season 7 that it could have been "prince" or "princess that was promised" male or female at least on the show.

No, it's on the storywriters. By your standard, I have no right to criticize any story, because any plot point that I think is poorly written is my fault. Obviously the writers knew what they were doing.

Not true. Subverting expectations just so you can have a "gotcha" moment is bad storytelling. The writers aren't gods... they can make mistakes, as they clearly did here.

 

[MaceB]

How about.....you can not be happy about it...AND....you can not be totally pissed about it.

You're right. I'm choosing to be angry about it. I could let GOT go. I could just say... well those were 8 fun years, and even though they pulled a TLJ on me.. I'm gonna let it go. I'm choosing not to, because it was truly such a poor effort on the writer's part. I'm literally flabbergasted by how bad this decision was.

Is that on me? I guess.... but my opinion is that this was a show-ruining move. I mourn the loss of my favorite show at this point. Very similar to LOST. Not only was it a bad ending... I could live with that... but it actually makes the rest of the show unwatchable, because now we know the primary plot goes nowhere.

I know that my cynicism isn't fun to read... I get that, and that's why I'm gonna try to fall back here. But this is conversation forum, and I'm sorry... I can't even pretend to be pleased with this one. It was that bad.

 

[C. Lee]

I know that my cynicism isn't fun to read... I get that, and that's why I'm gonna try to fall back here. But this is conversation forum, and I'm sorry... I can't even pretend to be pleased with this one. It was that bad.

I don't consider your cynicism fun or not fun.....I just responded to your comments because I personally don't see what you and others are so upset about. Like I've said....it worked for me. I had no expectations for Jon or anyone else on the show to be the one to kill the Night king. I had several characters as a possible killer of him....but wasn't expecting/wanting/hoping any one person to do the deed.

 

[Rocco]

No, it's on the storywriters. By your standard, I have no right to criticize any story, because any plot point that I think is poorly written is my fault. Obviously the writers knew what they were doing.

Not true. Subverting expectations just so you can have a "gotcha" moment is bad storytelling. The writers aren't gods... they can make mistakes, as they clearly did here.

LOL. In this case it's on you. No you can criticize but it has to be a valid criticism.
That gotcha moment made you angry but not others. So it wasn't so obvious Jon was meant to kill the night king. It was definitely a high possibility though. Since they made it work it wasn't bad storytelling. It wasn't some nobody character or even a supporting character. They can make mistakes, the Dorne story line being one of them most definitely. This one however was not one of them which surprises me.

 

[Rocco]

I don't consider your cynicism fun or not fun.....I just responded to your comments because I personally don't see what you and others are so upset about. Like I've said....it worked for me. I had no expectations for Jon or anyone else on the show to be the one to kill the Night king. I had several characters as a possible killer of him....but wasn't expecting/wanting/hoping any one person to do the deed.

Exactly, well said.

 

[MaceB]

LOL. In this case it's on you. No you can criticize but it has to be a valid criticism.
That gotcha moment made you angry but not others. So it wasn't so obvious Jon was meant to kill the night king. It was definitely a high possibility though. Since they made it work it wasn't bad storytelling. It wasn't some nobody character or even a supporting character. They can make mistakes, the Dorne story line being one of them most definitely. This one however was not one of them which surprises me.

It seems like it's made a lot of people angry. It's not just me. You admit this later... so my criticism is shared by many, but not a valid criticism? It was obvious that Jon was meant to kill the Night King, by the fact that nearly all of his screen time was devoted to it.

They didn't make it work. Arya had nothing to do with the Night King. It was a cheep, manufactured moment designed to get a reaction, not to make a satisfying ending.

We're going in circle. I get that you like it. Please get that I didn't. I've explained why... in detail. That should really be enough for you.

 

[Rocco]

It seems like it's made a lot of people angry. It's not just me. You admit this later... so my criticism is shared by many, but not a valid criticism? It was obvious that Jon was meant to kill the Night King, by the fact that nearly all of his screen time was devoted to it.

They didn't make it work. Arya had nothing to do with the Night King. It was a cheep, manufactured moment designed to get a reaction, not to make a satisfying ending.

We're going in circle. I get that you like it. Please get that I didn't. I've explained why... in detail. That should really be enough for you.

No hard feelings my friend. I don't mean it's just you. I know it's others too. I get it but I honestly don't think it was ever THAT obvious. Plus not all of Melisandre's predictions and prophecies came true or were interpreted incorrectly. I expect the same subversion from GRRM. I don't expect it to happen in the books either, Jon killing all the white walkers no matter how obvious it seems. Perhaps we never should have been that attached to the idea of Jon killing the night king so if one is then yeah that is on us. Did the writers intend to mess with us like that? I don't know. I just don't think since the night king is not really a character then someone didn't have to have something to do with him for as long as Jon for Jon to be the one to kill him that's all. I would have applauded it of course. The funny thing is is that I like it fine but I don't love it because I'll be god damned the writers made it work for what the show was going for. But yeah it's best to just end this pointless debate lol. Cheers.

 

[Reek]

I'd be completely fine with Arya killing the NK if there was at least a one on one sword fight with him a Jon... all that building up to them fighting each other got thrown out the window. but whatever it is what it is. I am sure they have something up their sleeve... like Cersei turning into a monster from Berserk

 

[Roose Bolton]

In any case, GRRM can look at the reaction and know what not to do. The whole Phantom Menace shtick of killing one thing to end all of the army never really felt like a book thing.