Game of Thrones General (Non-Book Related) Discussion Thread - Part 1

[DACrowe]

said it in another thread... its not how he died... its that YES we did want a bit of a showdown... even if jon lost! it built to him vs jon for years! of course we wanted a sword fight with those two. how could you not?!

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record: I wanted Ned to kill Jaime after what happened to Bran. I wanted Robb to finish his fight with Joffrey after what happened to Ned and for him and Cat to make good on their vow "I'll kill all of them." I wanted Robb to bring Sansa, Joff's head. And you know, I wanted Jaime and Brienne to kill Vargo Hoat (Locke on the show). And you know I wanted the Red Viper to kill the Mountain and for Tyrion to be pardoned for the crime he was wrongfully accused of.

Thwarted desire has always been part of the show's genetic makeup.

 

[Rocco]

Surely the Hound is going to take care of the Mountain?

I hope he does and I expect he will but we've expected so much haven't we LOL. He is on Arya's list so while I expect the hound will fight the mountain Arya could very well dealt the killing blow. I hope not though.

 

[Rocco]

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record: I wanted Ned to kill Jaime after what happened to Bran. I wanted Robb to finish his fight with Joffrey after what happened to Ned and for him and Cat to make good on their vow "I'll kill all of them." I wanted Robb to bring Sansa, Joff's head. And you know, I wanted Jaime and Brienne to kill Vargo Hoat (Locke on the show). And you know I wanted the Red Viper to kill the Mountain and for Tyrion to be pardoned for the crime he was wrongfully accused of.

Thwarted desire has always been part of the show's genetic makeup.

Yep this is the story we're dealing with whether we like it or not. Some storytellers like playing with one's emotions, not to piss you off but to engross you into the story and keep you in suspense and asking "what's going to happen now/next?" This show has done that and then some despite its flaws.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The Azor Ahai prophecy is a little vague too, all these predictions from Melisandre have been. Maybe it's more clear in the books compared to the show but until we get book 6 and 7 then the books as far as I'm concerned are irrelevant. We should't assume GRRM is going to have Jon kill the white walkers in the books just because he's supposedly set it up.

I've already told you that what I'm talking about has nothing to do with whether Jon is the one or not. It's about whether prophecies matter, and that I want to hear how the showrunners see it in the show.

 

[Rocco]

I've already told you that what I'm talking about has nothing to do with whether Jon is the one or not. It's about whether prophecies matter, and that I want to hear how the showrunners see it in the show.

I know and I'm saying they clearly don't as much as we thought, at least in the show.

 

[Reek]

oh come on lol. you know damn well this is different. every single situation mentioned had a conclusion worthy of it... arya killing NK without a showdown with Jon is trash. I can't even believe this is a dispute

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Except it did foreshadow Arya killing Pollivar at the tavern and reclaiming Needle (or whichever she killed at the Tavern, because I think it's arranged slightly differently in the books). It also foreshadowed Arya killing Meryn Trant when he comes to Braavos, breaking her Faceless Man training, in The Winds of Winter (which we've seen will happen via an excerpted chapter). And in the show it foreshadowed her also killing Walder Frey. It was teasing she'd become an assassin (or at least a proficient killer) and check off many of these names. Many she has, more so on the show. And it again gives the reader a hope for vengeance on Joffrey, especially after the Red Wedding. Making the shock he was poisoned by, seemingly no one at the time, all the more unexpected and mayhaps disappointing to some.

As I said, that's not what I consider foreshadowing. Foreshadowing is subtle hints of what will happen, while Arya is just blatantly stating her goals over and over. It's just describing the character of Arya. That she would likely try to kill some of them was obvious, but in the normal way a character sets out to do something and not in foreshadowing by the author. Martin doesn't suck as a writer so his attempts at foreshadowing aren't done clumsily with a sledgehammer.

First the Prince Who was Promised and Azor Ahai are two different prophecies. The fact Melisandre (and now fans) blur that line underlines how murky and unreliable this thinking is to me. Second, I don't think the prophecy is where the show got its name. Beyond the obvious (White Walkers and dragons, the Wall and Essos being different extremes), to me it was always a story about Jon and Daenerys' rises, and Jon himself being born out of a secret union of ice and fire.

I have seen very little reason to believe in any prophecy in the books and show, because I always took a very skeptical view to that and so has Martin given his penchant for undermining prophecy left and right. Maybe Maggy the Frog was right, or maybe it was a self-fulfilling prophecy because Cersei turned Tyrion into an enemy by antagonizing him to the point of trying to kill hi multiple times and she antagonized Margaery to the point she invited the sparrows. There is a very non-religious reading of that.

The other main prophecy (two, in fact) were sold by a human-sacrificing witch who got it so wrong on Stannis that he (probably) ends up getting himself and his entire family killed. She already begins measuring Jon Snow as the next "chosen one," but there is a definite air of her making it up as she goes. I don't think prophecies mean anything in this world any more than they do in ours. It's probably why I didn't think about it at all when it came to defeating the White Walkers, because I never once believed Jon would have a flaming sword (much less make it flaming by running it through Daenerys like some of the more low-key-misogynist fans wanted) because it ain't that kind of story.

If you want foreshadowing, I do think there is plenty with Arya in retrospect. While I do roll my eyes a bit at Melisandre, you can just as easily turn to her "blue eyes" comment as her sizing up Jon after Stannis dies. There's also the fact she's trained from the start to say to the "God of Death," "not today." I actually think it lines up very well with her character, and I like it more because it isn't what we wanted. The thought of Jon Snow fighting the Night King just sounds like every other fantasy story.

Yes, but not necessarily about different people. It's still unclear to the readers. As for the name, Jon and Daenerys are very much candidates to the prophecies, with Jon directly being conceived because of it (right or wrong), so it's all intertwined.

I don't see how Maggy the Frog's prophecy can be self-fulfilling when she even lists how many children Robert and Cersei will have each, and none of them together. We know that Cersei was ready to give Robert a chance, so she didn't go into the marriage with the final outcome in mind. Robert was just never in a place where things could have turned out well. Cersei making Tyrion into an enemy is also not unlikely to be one of the classic misinterpretations of prophecy.

Taking characters' misinterpretations of prophecies as statements on whether the prophecies are real in that world is a mistake. The legitimacy of a prophecy has never relied on whether people managed to interpret it correctly. It's in fact expected that real prophecies are misinterpreted in fiction as that's been the case in fiction for thousands of years.

My point isn't that Jon had to kill the Night King, it's that the prophecy needs to have some effect. If you spend so much time building up a prophecy, both in current events and by several historical people who's lives have helped shape the current world, you either fulfill it or you make a big deal out of the prophecy not being true through there being consequences for trying to fulfill something false. Just ignoring it in the end would be absolutely terrible writing, so therefor I want to know how the showrunners related to it when they wrote this season (which I'm fine with waiting until after the season to hear).

I will however say that I'm not certain they just haven't made a writing mistake. After what they did with Sansa's story in season 5 it's clear that they have no issues completely throwing logic and character development out the window if they feel like it.

 

[Rocco]

oh come on lol. you know damn well this is different. every single situation mentioned had a conclusion worthy of it... arya killing NK without a showdown with Jon is trash. I can't even believe this is a dispute

They had a showdown, in the sky. We all clearly didn't just want that. It's a dispute because not everyone figured Jon would kill the night king or even cares about Jon as a character. The prophecies still were vague I'm sorry. All those situations had worthy conclusions yes but that's also our opinions. This one was worthy. I'm telling you if it wasn't Jon or Arya doing it then I'd agree it was lame. I'm really surprised in this instance I'm giving it a pass I really am but hey not the first time I've surprised myself lol. Will I come around eventually and say "yeah that sucked this series is ruined for me now." It's possible. Arya killing the night king or Jon or Dany are the only worthy conclusions since there is no other character they could use to connect to the night king in any way and they knew that.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I know and I'm saying they clearly don't as much as we thought, at least in the show.

I'm giving them some benefit of the doubt until it's done, just to be reasonable. As I said in my post above this one they've certainly thrown logic and character development out the window before, so it's very much a possibility, but I'll wait and see.

 

[Rocco]

I'm giving them some benefit of the doubt until it's done, just to be reasonable. As I said in my post above this one they've certainly thrown logic and character development out the window before, so it's very much a possibility, but I'll wait and see.

(sigh) I really do wish they did just have Jon kill the night king so fans online weren't having this debate I really do lol. I don't think D&D did this just to piss people off and create controversy. I think they genuinely wanted to excite people with this decision.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

(sigh) I really do wish they did just have Jon kill the night king so fans online weren't having this debate I really do lol. I don't think D&D did this just to piss people off and create controversy. I think they genuinely wanted to excite people with this decision.

I'm not pissed off, I just want to see if they put as much thought into it as Martin is likely to do. If they have a good explanation for how the prophecy links into this it's fine, I haven't had any exact scenario that I want to happen. The only thing I don't want is them just not bothering with something that's been built up. If you spend plenty time building up a prophecy it should have a dramatic outcome, which can come both from it being true and it being false. What shouldn't happen is a non-dramatic outcome.

The Sansa story in season 5 on the other hand, that did piss me off. That was an incredibly poor choice for that character at that point in the story in my view.

 

[Rocco]

I'm not pissed off, I just want to see if they put as much thought into it as Martin is likely to do. If they have a good explanation for how the prophecy links into this it's fine, I haven't had any exact scenario that I want to happen. The only thing I don't want is them just not bothering with something that's been built up. If you spend plenty time building up a prophecy it should have a dramatic outcome, which can come both from it being true and it being false. What shouldn't happen is a non-dramatic outcome.

The Sansa story in season 5 on the other hand, that did piss me off. That was an incredibly poor choice for that character at that point in the story in my view.

Well didn't mean to imply you were pissed off just many fans in general.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Well didn't mean to imply you were pissed off just many fans in general.

I didn't think you were but I felt like it didn't hurt to be extra clear, just in case. And yes, there's certainly some anger going around.

 

[MaceB]

I'm not pissed off, I just want to see if they put as much thought into it as Martin is likely to do. If they have a good explanation for how the prophecy links into this it's fine, I haven't had any exact scenario that I want to happen. The only thing I don't want is them just not bothering with something that's been built up. If you spend plenty time building up a prophecy it should have a dramatic outcome, which can come both from it being true and it being false. What shouldn't happen is a non-dramatic outcome.

The Sansa story in season 5 on the other hand, that did piss me off. That was an incredibly poor choice for that character at that point in the story in my view.

100% agreed. It could be that the TPTWP prophecy is totally bunk... Melisandre was completely wrong with Stannis and with Jon. But it must be discussed further. If not, then it's a dangling plot line... an unresolved plot point. Simple as that.

 

[Rocco]

100% agreed. It could be that the TPTWP prophecy is totally bunk... Melisandre was completely wrong with Stannis and with Jon. But it must be discussed further. If not, then it's a dangling plot line... an unresolved plot point. Simple as that.

I would love it and accept more explanation from Bran to Jon and Arya in episode 4 or something definitely.

 

[MaceB]

I would love it and accept more explanation from Bran to Jon and Arya in episode 4 or something definitely.

It's absolutely required at this point.

 

[Iceman]

I don't care too much who kills the Night King. I just don't want him and his whole army killed so easily while the White Walkers do bugger all in their final appearance.

 

[Rocco]

I don't care too much who kills the Night King. I just don't want him and his whole army killed so easily while the White Walkers do bugger all in their final appearance.

You mean the kill him and his entire army will fall? Sure they could have come up with something better. I really do wonder what GRRM has planned.

 

[Iceman]

You mean the kill him and his entire army will fall? Sure they could have come up with something better. I really do wonder what GRRM has planned.

Yeah. I would have liked a bunch of the heroes involved in that move - like Theon's charge. All those guys who died and maybe a few more could have been involved in a surprise attack. They all get taken out (killed) ruthlessly by the White Walkers and Night King. Only Arya gets past due to her ninja skills and it then ends the same way. If the NK is the source of all their powers then that vulnerability should be covered up by having a bunch of the White Walkers acting as an elite bodyguard regiment.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Rocco]

Yeah. I would have liked a bunch of the heroes involved in that move - like Theon's charge. All those guys who died and maybe a few more could have been involved in a surprise attack. They all get taken out (killed) ruthlessly by the White Walkers and Night King. Only Arya gets past due to her ninja skills and it then ends the same way. If the NK is the source of all their powers then that vulnerability should be covered up by having a bunch of the White Walkers acting as an elite bodyguard regiment.

I just took it as the white walkers letting their guard down and not expecting Arya's magic assassin stealth moves. Plus I guess the twist was Melisandre's prediction from back in season 3 was specifically predicting her killing the night king so the night king couldn't fight destiny I suppose.

 

[Iceman]

I just took it as the white walkers letting their guard down and not expecting Arya's magic assassin stealth moves. Plus I guess the twist was Melisandre's prediction from back in season 3 was specifically predicting her killing the night king so the night king couldn't fight destiny I suppose.

That all makes sense. I just wanted the end of the NK and the WW threat to be more epic. A good time to kill a load of hero characters showing bravery like Theon who could add to the chaos and distraction for the WWs and NK, helping Arya finish the job. I also thought the Dothraki scene was great but as with the WWs, I don't want that to be the end of them all in one episode. I enjoyed the episode fine, and like with Avengers: Endgame, I have preferences for how various parts of it could have gone regardless of liking it.

 

[Marvolo]

If this show has any balls, I would love to see her get ready to execute somebody (Tyrion, Sansa or Varys, or maybe all of them with the way the story is playing out) and she tells her dragons Dacarys, but then Jon commands them no and they listen to him over her. Dany is nothing without her dragons, and I would just like her to realize it when they don't answer to her orders anymore, but to Jon. It would be sweet, but I just don't think the show has the balls to prop up Jon to be this great leader like they were originally grooming him for.

I dont think Drogon would ever listen to Jon over Dany. But there might be enough to justify Rhaegal listening to Jon now that Jon has flown into battle with him. He let Jon put him into a brutal fight with Viserion. Rhaegal, even severely injured, got Jon back to the ground without throwing him off. But I think they missed a great opportunity during the battle. When Jon stood up and yelled at Viserion Rhaegal should have dropped in between them and Jon should have said Dracarys and had Rhaegal blast Viserions face off.

 

[warhorse78]

Surely the Hound is going to take care of the Mountain?

You would hope so, but the way things are going, I won't be surprised they have super Arya kill the Mountain and Cersei too. Damn, I hate what this show has become. It's taken my favorite character, and making me not like her so much anymore.

 

[Rocco]

It's absolutely required at this point.

Eh no it's not required since Jon never cared for or paid much attention to any vision involving him. He's not going to say "Arya, I thought I was destined to destroy the white walkers, turns out it was you." LOL