The Last Jedi General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - Part 13

[Mask&Cape]

My assumption was that the ship sped through the Supremacy before it entered hyperspace, so it’s the added force (and energy) of the impartial jump that cuts through the Supremacy like a lightsaber. This is Hollywood science, so that made sense to me.



Yeah, I don’t get the argument of “why wouldn’t they always do this?” Holdo was desperate, it wasn’t her original plan, and she expected to die anyway when the ship ran out of fuel. And it’s doubtful the Resistance would have the resources to build giant space torpedoes to do the same thing. More importantly, not every culture likes suicide attacks (and some consider them to be wicked acts), and I’d imagine the Resistance wouldn’t necessarily think to do such a thing. In fact, it’s something I’d actually expect from the more fanatical First Order (and it would have been nice if Hux knew what she was doing because it was a FO tactic).

The bigger issues are the fact that no one recognized that the ship was close to a planet (despite supposedly being “in the middle of knowhere”), and that Holdo's sacrifice is undercut by Rose knocking down Finn’s attempt to do the same thing.

It was an uncharted planet and very few people knew there had ever been a Rebel base there. More importantly, the Raddus was the only protection the Resistance. and even a hot head like Poe thought evacuating the base ship was insane so there is no reason why Hux would have considered it as an option for the rebels.

Holdo's sacrifice is not diminished by Rose's actions. Holdo gave up her life because she cared about Leia and her comrades - there was no other way to save them. Rose cared about Finn and didn't want him to die, let alone for nothing - was hat rickety little craft really going to have any impact against the cannon?

 

[Mask&Cape]

I believe Hux is in charge of the entire First Order military.

I wonder what would have been the outcome if Hux hadn't been so slow in drawing his blaster in the throne room?

I think he would have called off the pursuit in order to sort out the mess Holdo had made of his fleet and dealt with the Resistance another day.

I'm looking forward to a space battle in IX with Hux and Poe in command of their respective fleets.

 

[Orba]

They have done a piece for the Youtube channel with members of the story group talking about various bits of the films plus some of the easter eggs.

[YT]p09c0MXDxto[/YT]

 

[DerekLake]

It was an uncharted planet and very few people knew there had ever been a Rebel base there. More importantly, the Raddus was the only protection the Resistance. and even a hot head like Poe thought evacuating the base ship was insane so there is no reason why Hux would have considered it as an option for the rebels.

Holdo's sacrifice is not diminished by Rose's actions. Holdo gave up her life because she cared about Leia and her comrades - there was no other way to save them. Rose cared about Finn and didn't want him to die, let alone for nothing - was hat rickety little craft really going to have any impact against the cannon?

And their ships couldn’t detect the planet? It took DJ for them to put two and two together? And Hux wouldn’t have thought that the Resistance ship running out of fuel just might be looking to escape to the nearby planet? It is incredulous enough that they did not call in other ships (even if they were too far away). But to not be able to pick up a planet 18 hrs away? With our primitive tech we can reasonably identify far off planets, so it’s a bit of a reach to say that the First Order, with its ability to drain a sun and destroy five planets several light years away with precision, can’t detect a nearby planet.

I’m not going to get too much into Rose’s actions or her “message” because others have done so at length, but needless to say Finn was attempting to do the same thing Holdo did (at that point in the story, there was no other way to save the Resistance). Rose’s actions were driven by selfish motivations, not pragmatism like Poe, and her moral message just did not fit with what was happening.

 

[Mjölnir]

The "current canon" is all over the place with lightspeed travel. The previous seven movies and TV shows have shown hyperspeed to be both instantaneuos travel across vast distances AND that it takes several minutes/days - that you need to be absolutely precise in calculations or you will die AND that it does not matter because you will survive unscathed anyway - that you need to be certain distance from planet AND that you can jump into/out of hyperspace within the atmosphere.

To be honest, I don't see how Holdo using it as a weapon goes against anything in the established science. It the first use of ightspeed travel in Star Wars, Han Solo says you collide with with objects in real space and the navcomputer plots a course around known planet and debris. Holdo flies straight into a known obstacle.

I already addressed that. It's only extremely large objects, like planets and stars, that leave mass shadows in hyperspace. If any sort of smaller objects could affect you people would die all the time in hyperspace travel since you can't keep track of all debris floating around in the galaxy, you an only keep track of the huge celestial bodies.

The physical aspect of Holdo doing it is the least of the issues though, as you're fairly free to make up explanations in the holes of this made up physics. It's what it means for starship combat that's the larger crux, both for the future and in explaning why people didn't do it before or already created weapons that utilized it without having to sacrifice people. It would have been extra perfect for the droid armies of the separatists.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I already addressed that. It's only extremely large objects, like planets and stars, that leave mass shadows in hyperspace. If any sort of smaller objects could affect you people would die all the time in hyperspace travel since you can't keep track of all debris floating around in the galaxy, you an only keep track of the huge celestial bodies.

The physical aspect of Holdo doing it is the least of the issues though, as you're fairly free to make up explanations in the holes of this made up physics. It's what it means for starship combat that's the larger crux, both for the future and in explaning why people didn't do it before or already created weapons that utilized it without having to sacrifice people. It would have been extra perfect for the droid armies of the separatists.

It’s easy to explain. The cost of kamaikazing your own ship is too high for it to be standard practice. Which is the same reason we don’t tell fighter pilots in the real world to go around and use their jets as torpedoes. The cost of losing the jet that often would be far too high for the government to maintain.

 

[Mask&Cape]

And their ships couldn’t detect the planet? It took DJ for them to put two and two together? And Hux wouldn’t have thought that the Resistance ship running out of fuel just might be looking to escape to the nearby planet? It is incredulous enough that they did not call in other ships (even if they were too far away). But to not be able to pick up a planet 18 hrs away? With our primitive tech we can reasonably identify far off planets, so it’s a bit of a reach to say that the First Order, with its ability to drain a sun and destroy five planets several light years away with precision, can’t detect a nearby planet.

I’m not going to get too much into Rose’s actions or her “message” because others have done so at length, but needless to say Finn was attempting to do the same thing Holdo did (at that point in the story, there was no other way to save the Resistance). Rose’s actions were driven by selfish motivations, not pragmatism like Poe, and her moral message just did not fit with what was happening.

I never said the planet was undetected. I said it was was uncharted. As far as Hux knew it was just another unexplored planet. Only a small number of people knew it housed an abandoned Rebel Base. Yes, the Raddus was running on fumes but it still had enough fuel for a last ditch attempt to jump to hyperspace (even if it wasn't very far) and it still had weapons - enough firepower to keep TIE Fighters at bay and enough for a desperate last stand. Leaving the cruiser was inconceivable to a guy Poe, so why would someone like Hux think they'd do it.

Rose's action fit in perfectly with the story. She cared about Finn and wanted him to live. Selfish? Yes, a little but that doesn't make it any less heroic. Lots of heroes do good deeds that are sometimes as much for their benefit as they are fr the good of others. Luke faces Vader on Bespin rather than try to find a way to his friends, for example, because he wants to fight the guy he thinks killed his father.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I already addressed that. It's only extremely large objects, like planets and stars, that leave mass shadows in hyperspace. If any sort of smaller objects could affect you people would die all the time in hyperspace travel since you can't keep track of all debris floating around in the galaxy, you an only keep track of the huge celestial bodies.

The physical aspect of Holdo doing it is the least of the issues though, as you're fairly free to make up explanations in the holes of this made up physics. It's what it means for starship combat that's the larger crux, both for the future and in explaning why people didn't do it before or already created weapons that utilized it without having to sacrifice people. It would have been extra perfect for the droid armies of the separatists.

The Supremacy is large. And no where in the canon does it say a ship of that size doesn't cast such a shadow.

I don't need to "make up explanations" for gaps in the "science". The holes are throughout the franchise because Lucas didn't't give fiddlers about the science. The use of hyperspace, and regular spaceflight itself, in all 7 movies and both TV shows is not consistent. It used in whatever way the story requires it - hyperspeed travel is instantaneous unless it isn't, it is affected by gravity until it isn't.

As to it affecting past or future storytelling. It will not.

Writers will not be hyperspacing ships into each other will not become standard practice in the franchise because it will just rehashing this moment.

In-universe, why in the world would governments and military leaders be using very expensive, and normally heavily manned (organic or robotic ) starships as torpedoes. The economy and armed forces would collapse. It really is not a logic train of thought.

 

[Mask&Cape]

It’s easy to explain. The cost of kamaikazing your own ship is too high for it to be standard practice. Which is the same reason we don’t tell fighter pilots in the real world to go around and use their jets as torpedoes. The cost of losing the jet that often would be far too high for the government to maintain.

Plus the cost in pilots lives.

I doubt recruitment numbers would he high in a world where military personal are expected to kamikaze themselves at the drop of a hat.

 

[Mjölnir]

It’s easy to explain. The cost of kamaikazing your own ship is too high for it to be standard practice. Which is the same reason we don’t tell fighter pilots in the real world to go around and use their jets as torpedoes. The cost of losing the jet that often would be far too high for the government to maintain.

Facing the threat of the Death Star, for example, is far beyond normal practice situation.

And that's still not commenting on the biggest thing, which is why people haven't weaponize hyperdrives. The kamikaze thing is only relevant if you explain why they aren't weapons to begin with, which we've seen nothing that indicates that they can't be now that we know what happens when you use it that way.

The Supremacy is large. And no where in the canon does it say a ship of that size doesn't cast such a shadow.

I don't need to "make up explanations" for gaps in the "science". The holes are throughout the franchise because Lucas didn't't give fiddlers about the science. The use of hyperspace, and regular spaceflight itself, in all 7 movies and both TV shows is not consistent. It used in whatever way the story requires it - hyperspeed travel is instantaneous unless it isn't, it is affected by gravity until it isn't.

As to it affecting past or future storytelling. It will not.

Writers will not be hyperspacing ships into each other will not become standard practice in the franchise because it will just rehashing this moment.

In-universe, why in the world would governments and military leaders be using very expensive, and normally heavily manned (organic or robotic ) starships as torpedoes. The economy and armed forces would collapse. It really is not a logic train of thought.

It's very unlikely that the Supremacy is large enough given what's been stated. It's tiny compared to the Death Star, and the Death Star is tiny compared to even our moon. It's so much easier to just say that it hit before entering hyperspace, or something like that. That way you don't complicate the issue of hyperspace travel with points that can't be calculated.

It's affecting past and future no matter what anyone likes, because since this has happened people will wonder why it hasn't happened before, or why this hasn't affected weapons development if it works like this. Just because there are other inconsistencies around doesn't mean that you have to blindly accept anything that happens. It's only logical to think about that if hyperdrives have such impact, then it not only should drive weapons development, it should also change things like that it's far more of a risk to spend lots of resources on huge ships when one can be taken out by a much smaller one without there hardly being anything you can do to stop it.

 

[Orba]

They have done a piece for the Youtube channel with members of the story group talking about various bits of the films plus some of the easter eggs.

[YT]p09c0MXDxto[/YT]

One thing of interest in this one is at about 14:10 where they talk about when Rey and Kylo looked into each others minds in TFA and indicate that there was a sharing of stuff between them due to it. It sounds like it could be that some of Rey's skills with the Force may have come from that.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Facing the threat of the Death Star, for example, is far beyond normal practice situation.

And that's still not commenting on the biggest thing, which is why people haven't weaponize hyperdrives. The kamikaze thing is only relevant if you explain why they aren't weapons to begin with, which we've seen nothing that indicates that they can't be now that we know what happens when you use it that way.

What has the Death Star to do with it?

I don't think you understand the difference between going into a battle and deliberately using yourself as the weapon. It takes extraordinary courage to into combat, and it is a an even more extraordinary frame of mind to actual use yourself as a sacrifice.

As to hyperspace engines as weapons? Maybe they have been used as weapons in the past. A hyperdrive in a rocket is not as expensive as a cruiser or an unmanned derelict piloted remotely. Plausible weapons IF the debris from your hyperdrive weapon doesn't keep travelling in hyperspace or emerge in real space in some other location as a hazard.

That is very different to using starfighters and capital ships as torpedoes. A space empire wouldn't last long with you in charge - you'd burn up your finances on throwing away perfectly good spacecraft as well as the crews needed to fly them.

It's very unlikely that the Supremacy is large enough given what's been stated. It's tiny compared to the Death Star, and the Death Star is tiny compared to even our moon. It's so much easier to just say that it hit before entering hyperspace, or something like that. That way you don't complicate the issue of hyperspace travel with points that can't be calculated.

Show me where in the Star Wars canon that it states that something the size of Snoke's ship is too small too cast a "shadow" in hyperspace?

Yes, maybe the Raddus hit it before actually entered hyperspace. I never said it wasn't a possibility.

Either way, even though the "science" is inconsistent, it does not contradict anything about hyperspace from the other movies. Unlike Lucas and Abrams who either didn't use it with any rules in mind or actually "broke" the rules.

It's affecting past and future no matter what anyone likes, because since this has happened people will wonder why it hasn't happened before, or why this hasn't affected weapons development if it works like this. Just because there are other inconsistencies around doesn't mean that you have to blindly accept anything that happens. It's only logical to think about that if hyperdrives have such impact, then it not only should drive weapons development, it should also change things like that it's far more of a risk to spend lots of resources on huge ships when one can be taken out by a much smaller one without there hardly being anything you can do to stop it.

We actually do have to accept anything that happens in Star Wars because we have no say over it whatsoever.

And I don't think as people are as wound up about this as you believe. I'm no writer and I certainly have wondered over the years about ships hyperspacing into each other in battle. If I thought of it then so have other fans.

For right now, Holdo is the first warrior in the GFFA to use a hyperdrive as a weapon. What is the problem with it? It was cool moment and a great way for a character to go out. I can understand the desire to discuss whether the tactic might have been used in-universe before or the possible merit of hyperspace missiles as a future WMD, but I don't get the fretting and hand wringing about "why we haven't seen this in canon before?" - we haven't seen it because no previous Star Was writer has thought of it or they have but not used it.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Facing the threat of the Death Star, for example, is far beyond normal practice situation.

And that's still not commenting on the biggest thing, which is why people haven't weaponize hyperdrives. The kamikaze thing is only relevant if you explain why they aren't weapons to begin with, which we've seen nothing that indicates that they can't be now that we know what happens when you use it that way.

I think the money isssue still explains it pretty easily. “Why don’t we weaponizd hyperdrives!?” “They cost fifty thousand times more than a standard blasting cannon.”
“Point taken.”

And done. Why wasn’t it done on the Death Star? Well, there’s been three of them ever. It’s not like people were telling them “FYI, in the instance of facing technology from a battle station of a magnitude you’ve never seen before, kill yourself by lightspeeding through it.”



And at the end of the day, you’re trying to apply in depth rationale to a world that has never really thought through its physics or magic. Why doesn’t Darth Vader use the force to grab Luke when he jumps into the void in Empire? Because it would have screwed up the story, that’s why.

And that’s the logic with most of this stuff.

 

[Mask&Cape]

Has Johnson or Lucasfilm commented on whether Fisher's death caused any changes to the TLJ?

I have a recollection of Johnson commenting, not long after Fisher's death that he made no changes but I just want to be sure.

I am still very surprised that no alteration was made to keep both a legacy character and leader character in play for the ST.

It was already difficult enough to try predict where the story was going to go but with no Leia or Luke and with Poe Dameron leading the Resistance it is now completely impossible.

One thing of interest in this one is at about 14:10 where they talk about when Rey and Kylo looked into each others minds in TFA and indicate that there was a sharing of stuff between them due to it. It sounds like it could be that some of Rey's skills with the Force may have come from that.

I haven't had a chance to watch that video yet. Is that just a person's opinion or is something official?

I don't think I'd like that idea. Rey dowloaded Force abilities like a computer catching a virus during a Skype call?

I think it takes away from the character's growth on the Island.

 

[Mask&Cape]

I think the money isssue still explains it pretty easily. “Why don’t we weaponizd hyperdrives!?” “They cost fifty thousand times more than a standard blasting cannon.”
“Point taken.”

And done. Why wasn’t it done on the Death Star? Well, there’s been three of them ever. It’s not like people were telling them “FYI, in the instance of facing technology from a battle station of a magnitude you’ve never seen before, kill yourself by lightspeeding through it.”



And at the end of the day, you’re trying to apply in depth rationale to a world that has never really thought through its physics or magic. Why doesn’t Darth Vader use the force to grab Luke when he jumps into the void in Empire? Because it would have screwed up the story, that’s why.

And that’s the logic with most of this stuff.

Straight forward and to the point.

 

[Mjölnir]

What has the Death Star to do with it?

I don't think you understand the difference between going into a battle and deliberately using yourself as the weapon. It takes extraordinary courage to into combat, and it is a an even more extraordinary frame of mind to actual use yourself as a sacrifice.

As to hyperspace engines as weapons? Maybe they have been used as weapons in the past. A hyperdrive in a rocket is not as expensive as a cruiser or an unmanned derelict piloted remotely. Plausible weapons IF the debris from your hyperdrive weapon doesn't keep travelling in hyperspace or emerge in real space in some other location as a hazard.

That is very different to using starfighters and capital ships as torpedoes. A space empire wouldn't last long with you in charge - you'd burn up your finances on throwing away perfectly good spacecraft as well as the crews needed to fly them.



Show me where in the Star Wars canon that it states that something the size of Snoke's ship is too small too cast a "shadow" in hyperspace?

Yes, maybe the Raddus hit it before actually entered hyperspace. I never said it wasn't a possibility.

Either way, even though the "science" is inconsistent, it does not contradict anything about hyperspace from the other movies. Unlike Lucas and Abrams who either didn't use it with any rules in mind or actually "broke" the rules.



We actually do have to accept anything that happens in Star Wars because we have no say over it whatsoever.

And I don't think as people are as wound up about this as you believe. I'm no writer and I certainly have wondered over the years about ships hyperspacing into each other in battle. If I thought of it then so have other fans.

For right now, Holdo is the first warrior in the GFFA to use a hyperdrive as a weapon. What is the problem with it? It was cool moment and a great way for a character to go out. I can understand the desire to discuss whether the tactic might have been used in-universe before or the possible merit of hyperspace missiles as a future WMD, but I don't get the fretting and hand wringing about "why we haven't seen this in canon before?" - we haven't seen it because no previous Star Was writer has thought of it or they have but not used it.

An example of how Star Wars is not at all about ordinary practice but extraordinary events.

Of course I do.

Worrying about debris from a weapon is not a relevant answer. All weapons create debris in space battles.

There's nothing that says that your missile example can't just be done on a larger scale, you don't need it to be a ship. Take a bulk with a hyperdrive, have it carried by another ship so the pilot of that ship can point it in the right direction, then detach and start the hyperdrive remotely. Bam, you've destroyed a Star Destroyer or something from out of range of their cannons.

When they talk about mass shadows it's on planetary scale. To draw it down to something so tiny as the Supremacy just makes hyperspace travel harder in a way that you can't have travelers calculate for. Ergo it's better to choose the simpler solution which doesn't have any ripple effects.

What's the problem? That I like writing that's consistent and that actually is done while taking ripple effects into consideration. These are highly paid writers so they should be subject to relevant criticism. Sloppy jobs get criticism everywhere, and especially when you're highly paid.

 

[Mjölnir]

I think the money isssue still explains it pretty easily. “Why don’t we weaponizd hyperdrives!?” “They cost fifty thousand times more than a standard blasting cannon.”
“Point taken.”

And done. Why wasn’t it done on the Death Star? Well, there’s been three of them ever. It’s not like people were telling them “FYI, in the instance of facing technology from a battle station of a magnitude you’ve never seen before, kill yourself by lightspeeding through it.”



And at the end of the day, you’re trying to apply in depth rationale to a world that has never really thought through its physics or magic. Why doesn’t Darth Vader use the force to grab Luke when he jumps into the void in Empire? Because it would have screwed up the story, that’s why.

And that’s the logic with most of this stuff.

I'm not so sure they are that much more expensive since ships everywhere have hyperdrives. If anything they are more than fifty thousand times more effective than cannons as no cannon would hurt The Supremacy. As for the cost, if the First Order can build a battering ram with Death Star technology then money clearly isn't an issue since battering rams can't be useful very often (especially when orbital bombardment would probably collapse those caves anyway).

So it's more like "why haven't they made hyperspace drives into weapons?"
"Because it costs too much?"
"The First Order seems to be able to build Star Killer base, have it blown up, and still they have the fleet to apparently take over the entire Republic. Resources clearly isn't a factor."
"Point taken."

The Death Star was just an example of things that would push people to their limits and not just be standard practice, like some other poster talked about.

And I know you just grabbed an example, but Vader being surprised that Luke killed himself is enough reason for him not to react quickly enough, while this case is something that factors into what every weapon's designer in the galaxy could think about. One is a spur of the moment thing, while the other is world building.

And of course things play out for story purposes etc, but that doesn't mean that we can discuss them. I've already stated that I don't think this is a big problem so there's no reason for any defender to overreact (not saying that you did) to me discussing it. But there's also a line where "for plot purposes" just becomes bad writing, and that's when you can't anchor it in what's already established, or explain it with the context of the scene.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm not so sure they are that much more expensive since ships everywhere have hyperdrives. If anything they are more than fifty thousand times more effective than cannons as no cannon would hurt The Supremacy. As for the cost, if the First Order can build a battering ram with Death Star technology then money clearly isn't an issue since battering rams can't be useful very often (especially when orbital bombardment would probably collapse those caves anyway).

So it's more like "why haven't they made hyperspace drives into weapons?"
"Because it costs too much?"
"The First Order seems to be able to build Star Killer base, have it blown up, and still they have the fleet to apparently take over the entire Republic. Resources clearly isn't a factor."
"Point taken."

The Death Star was just an example of things that would push people to their limits and not just be standard practice, like some other poster talked about.

And I know you just grabbed an example, but Vader being surprised that Luke killed himself is enough reason for him not to react quickly enough, while this case is something that factors into what every weapon's designer in the galaxy could think about. One is a spur of the moment thing, while the other is world building.

And of course things play out for story purposes etc, but that doesn't mean that we can discuss them. I've already stated that I don't think this is a big problem so there's no reason for any defender to overreact (not saying that you did) to me discussing it. But there's also a line where "for plot purposes" just becomes bad writing, and that's when you can't anchor it in what's already established, or explain it with the context of the scene.

I get that, let's be real, this forum wouldn't exist if we didn't all enjoy looking wayyy too far into fictional characters.

The Vader example does raise a good point, and one I had thought about when I was posting it...but let's be real, Luke fell for a while, Vader probably had time to react. But I do agree that it's a more forgivable "flaw."

In terms of the expense, I still think it could be a justifiable reason. Every ship seems to have one, but we've also only seen a comparably small amount of the total number of spacecraft that exist in this galaxy. Really, we've mostly only seen military ships, and then the Falcon, which was the property of a criminal.

It's very probable that this only makes up a small percentage of the total craft in the SW Universe. And in that case, it's probable that a hyperdrive engine would be very expensive.

As for why the Empire built a Death star instead of weaponizing hyperdrives, that could be pretty simple also. The Death Star is a much more stable weapon. Hyperdrive "missiles" probably are more volatile and harder to control. Sure, the Death star would obviously be more expensive than one Hyperdrive engine, but it is also a base that was intended to exist indefinitely. It provides jobs, as well as being a massive destructive force. It would at least be able to add some level of economic boost into the Empire. Wheras warp drive "missiles" would be very expensive kamikaze bombs.

If you don't like those explanations, it's also probable that lightspeed kamikaze's were something people agreed not to do in wartime, similar to how all countries agreed to never use poison gas after WWI in war. This would be interesting, as it means Holdo would have broken a war agreement.

Either way though, I think it's understandable enough that most people would view lightspeed kamikaze as a means that extolls too high a price to be a common military practice. To be fair, the resistance only employed it when it was on the very verge of being completely annihilated.

 

[Mjölnir]

I get that, let's be real, this forum wouldn't exist if we didn't all enjoy looking wayyy too far into fictional characters.

The Vader example does raise a good point, and one I had thought about when I was posting it...but let's be real, Luke fell for a while, Vader probably had time to react. But I do agree that it's a more forgivable "flaw."

In terms of the expense, I still think it could be a justifiable reason. Every ship seems to have one, but we've also only seen a comparably small amount of the total number of spacecraft that exist in this galaxy. Really, we've mostly only seen military ships, and then the Falcon, which was the property of a criminal.

It's very probable that this only makes up a small percentage of the total craft in the SW Universe. And in that case, it's probable that a hyperdrive engine would be very expensive.

As for why the Empire built a Death star instead of weaponizing hyperdrives, that could be pretty simple also. The Death Star is a much more stable weapon. Hyperdrive "missiles" probably are more volatile and harder to control. Sure, the Death star would obviously be more expensive than one Hyperdrive engine, but it is also a base that was intended to exist indefinitely. It provides jobs, as well as being a massive destructive force. It would at least be able to add some level of economic boost into the Empire. Wheras warp drive "missiles" would be very expensive kamikaze bombs.

If you don't like those explanations, it's also probable that lightspeed kamikaze's were something people agreed not to do in wartime, similar to how all countries agreed to never use poison gas after WWI in war. This would be interesting, as it means Holdo would have broken a war agreement.

Either way though, I think it's understandable enough that most people would view lightspeed kamikaze as a means that extolls too high a price to be a common military practice. To be fair, the resistance only employed it when it was on the very verge of being completely annihilated.

Indeed, nerding down into details is what we do here.

It's perfectly possible that Vader could move objects from further away than we see people do in the films, but since we don't really see anyone do it from afar it's at least less of an issue.

I don't think that hyperspace drives seem to be very expensive. We've seen lots of smaller ships have them, and not just military vessels. If they were really expensive it would make more sense that cargo ships were never as small as the YT-1300 but rather all huge ones that could take a ton of goods (think using huge ocean freighters instead of driving across the Atlantic in tons of small motor boats). At the very least I've seen nothing that indicates that they are particularly expensive.

That the Empire built a Death Star is very understandable. You'll not destroy a planet with a hyperdrive, judging by TLJ, and destroying planets is definitely a step up when you're aiming for galactic domination. The Death Star can blow up any ship as well, so it serves that function.

I was referring to the battering ram in TLJ which is made from Death Star technology. That's pretty much one of a kind technology, compared to the old and common hyperdrive technology, so that should be far more expensive, for something that's useless most of the time (even in that scene compared to orbital bombardment).

I don't think there are any conduct of war treaties in place. Neither the Empire nor the First Order seem to be remotely close to follow any form of ethics as they both kill planets with billions of innocent civilians.

As for kamikaze, I don't expect that to be too common (the weaponized hyperdrive is the main issue), but when you are about to crash and die (like the pilot that aims for the Star Destroyer bridge in RotJ) you might as well just fire up the hyperdrive and tear a hole in the cruiser.

But as said, this isn't a big deal. It's something I can ignore well enough, like I have to do with several SW things, and it made for a cool scene. I do have some serious issues with TLJ, but this certainly isn't one of them.

 

[TheVileOne]

The lightspeed kamikaze run is a bit weird, but whatever. I wish they could've done something else there.

 

[godisawesome]

The real issue to me is that you could have setup the kamikaze hyperspace ram by using one of the four protagonists aboard the Supremacy at that time to lower the shields; give Finn, Rose, or BB-8 something to do as an improvisation when their plan falls apart, then have the story group come up with a way that ship shields would make hyperspace ramming ineffective. Or have Rey do it.

There's another bit of real world annoying logic that plays a role in why hyperspace ramming should now be everyone's go-to missile tech; neccesity would push both sides to determine that if it was expensive, you just need to find a way to make it less expensive. Make the Grease Gun version of a hyperspace bullet to evolve from the Thompson Submachine Gun of a kamikaze capital ship. The sheer violent output of the Raddus ramming the Supremacy would easily justify it, especially for the First Order; if they've got "fleet killer" Dreadnaught's that must use slow plodding laser weapons, that strapping a medium sized hyperdrive to a rock with a droid computer is clearly more cost-effective.

Really, the hyperspace ram is just like everything else outside of the Force plot: good acting, Directing and visuals, all screwed over by horribly lazy and bad plotting.

 

[TheVileOne]

The real issue to me is that you could have setup the kamikaze hyperspace ram by using one of the four protagonists aboard the Supremacy at that time to lower the shields; give Finn, Rose, or BB-8 something to do as an improvisation when their plan falls apart, then have the story group come up with a way that ship shields would make hyperspace ramming ineffective. Or have Rey do it.

There's another bit of real world annoying logic that plays a role in why hyperspace ramming should now be everyone's go-to missile tech; neccesity would push both sides to determine that if it was expensive, you just need to find a way to make it less expensive. Make the Grease Gun version of a hyperspace bullet to evolve from the Thompson Submachine Gun of a kamikaze capital ship. The sheer violent output of the Raddus ramming the Supremacy would easily justify it, especially for the First Order; if they've got "fleet killer" Dreadnaught's that must use slow plodding laser weapons, that strapping a medium sized hyperdrive to a rock with a droid computer is clearly more cost-effective.

Really, the hyperspace ram is just like everything else outside of the Force plot: good acting, Directing and visuals, all screwed over by horribly lazy and bad plotting.

I agree, like do something in there like they'd be weak to such an attack. Like lowering a shield or some such.

FYI, in a previous Star Wars story in the EU, something like this happened and the ships basically bounced off the shields. They shaked, but there was no ships exploding or being ripped apart.

I mean just for example there are plenty of stories of how A New Hope was basically heavily refined and polished in the editing room. The idea of the Death Star attacking Yavin Base in the original was an idea Lucas' ex-wife came up with in post-production. Lots of tweaks were made to make the original into the movie it ultimately. They put a lot of thought into how things should work. Most of what was cut was Luke's whole backstory on Tatooine with Biggs Darklighter and his friends.

 

[Orba]

I mean just for example there are plenty of stories of how A New Hope was basically heavily refined and polished in the editing room. The idea of the Death Star attacking Yavin Base in the original was an idea Lucas' ex-wife came up with in post-production. Lots of tweaks were made to make the original into the movie it ultimately. They put a lot of thought into how things should work. Most of what was cut was Luke's whole backstory on Tatooine with Biggs Darklighter and his friends.

Interesting you mentioned that since I was just watching

[YT]GFMyMxMYDNk[/YT]

Although you have probably seen it.

 

[Filmfan93]

Watched it for an 8th and last time 2 days ago.

I am now ready for the Blu-Ray wait!

 

[TheVileOne]

Interesting you mentioned that since I was just watching

[YT]GFMyMxMYDNk[/YT]

Although you have probably seen it.

Yeah I think that's where I got some of that information I referenced.

But I think it's a really good example of how you can essentially continue rewriting the film's story in post-production and the edit room. It's symbolic of how an edit can really fine-tune or really undercut the final product.