The Last Jedi General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - Part 12

[jmc]

No it doesn't. The force and Jedi aren't scientific things. Its magic. Comparing one Jedi to another is pointless because there is no set scientific baseline. Just because Luke had to do one thing to achieve something doesn't mean another Jedi has to follow his same regiment or take the same amount of time to train or that that they will pick up abilities like video game perks in a predetermined order over time.

Rey already has some melee skills. This is established in TFA. Her abilities with the Force enhance those skills. She gets stronger in the Force in this film so her abilities get better. Seems pretty logical to me. I dont need the film to waste time establishing whats already established or showing me arbitrary scenes of her sparing. Why can't people just accept that she already had some fighting ability and that the Force, a magical thing that turns beings into supernatural warrior wizards, enhances and improves her abilities? People seem to accept it just fine when a superhero is capable in a fight and has powers without extensive on screen training scenes. It should be just as easy to accept that Rey had some fighting abilities and her superpowers enhance those abilities.

Each universe on film establishes it's own set of rules, what applies to one doesn't apply to another. Star Wars rules has established that in order to properly use the Force one has to be trained in some way. You're essentially saying 'just go with it' when it contradicts what's been established over the course of 6 films.

 

[FN-2187]

No it doesn't. The force and Jedi aren't scientific things. Its magic. Comparing one Jedi to another is pointless because there is no set scientific baseline. Just because Luke had to do one thing to achieve something doesn't mean another Jedi has to follow his same regiment or take the same amount of time to train or that that they will pick up abilities like video game perks in a predetermined order over time.

Rey already has some melee skills. This is established in TFA. Her abilities with the Force enhance those skills. She gets stronger in the Force in this film so her abilities get better. Seems pretty logical to me. I dont need the film to waste time establishing whats already established or showing me arbitrary scenes of her sparing. Why can't people just accept that she already had some fighting ability and that the Force, a magical thing that turns beings into supernatural warrior wizards, enhances and improves her abilities? People seem to accept it just fine when a superhero is capable in a fight and has powers without extensive on screen training scenes. It should be just as easy to accept that Rey had some fighting abilities and her superpowers enhance those abilities.

Rey taught herself how to melee fight with a staff while she was living alone on Jakku. She had no mentor.

She taught herself how to fix machinery. Just figured it out on her own by fiddling with junk.

Taught herself alien languages that allow her to communicate with Wookies and droids.

Taught herself how to build a flight simulator out of scraps and then used it to teach herself how to be a pilot.

Taught herself how to use a Jedi mind trick, Force pull, and fight with a lightsaber in TFA alone.

Taught herself how to swim in TLJ despite spending her entire life in a desert.

It's remarkable that she had the leisure time to teach herself all of these skills while at constant risk of starving to death if she couldn't find enough junk in the day to pay Unkar Plutt. How many real world people living a hand-to-mouth existence have THAT much free time?

Now, with Luke gone, it's implied that Rey will use the ancient Jedi texts she took from the tree to teach herself how to become a full Jedi.

Now do you understand why some people consider this to be a poorly written character?

 

[harlequinade]

Spoiler

Actually - Luke doesn’t tell them he’s stalling - Poe has to figure it out, so had he not realised that, Luke would’ve drained himself to death for no good reason at all ....

 

[Lilbaz]

No it doesn't. The force and Jedi aren't scientific things. Its magic. Comparing one Jedi to another is pointless because there is no set scientific baseline. Just because Luke had to do one thing to achieve something doesn't mean another Jedi has to follow his same regiment or take the same amount of time to train or that that they will pick up abilities like video game perks in a predetermined order over time.

Rey already has some melee skills. This is established in TFA. Her abilities with the Force enhance those skills. She gets stronger in the Force in this film so her abilities get better. Seems pretty logical to me. I dont need the film to waste time establishing whats already established or showing me arbitrary scenes of her sparing. Why can't people just accept that she already had some fighting ability and that the Force, a magical thing that turns beings into supernatural warrior wizards, enhances and improves her abilities? People seem to accept it just fine when a superhero is capable in a fight and has powers without extensive on screen training scenes. It should be just as easy to accept that Rey had some fighting abilities and her superpowers enhance those abilities.

It's not just fighting ability though. She can do jedi mind tricks. Now she can manipulate objects and lift tons of rubble no problem. After years luke still had trouble pulling a light saber from the snow.
Then you have the fact she knows the millenium falcon better than han etc...
She is a mary sue that has been forced on us and a lot of fans don't like it. There is no growth for her character. Bad bad writing. I feel sorry for daisy. I'm sure she would have liked more growth. As for luke the regressed his character too.
It feels like lucas films is saying you know that childhood hero you had, forget about him he's useless here is the new and improved model.

 

[Broseph44]

*walks into thread* Ahhhh just another day and another Mary Sue arguement.

 

[FunkMiller]

*walks into thread* Ahhhh just another day and another Mary Sue arguement.

I particularly enjoy the fact that people keep misrepresenting what the term Mary Sue means...

 

[Spider-Fan]

Guys, a lightsaber is not something you need to be a force user to master. It is a sword. If you understand melee weapons combat, you can be good with that weapon without every having used it. Again, it is just a sword made of light! Rey being able to be good with one is perfectly logical. She already understood melee weapons combat before she ever learned of the force. Watch TFA, she was quite capable with other weapons before they put a light saber in her hands.

The more I read on this forum, the more I feel people fundamentally misunderstand Jedi, the force, etc.

 

[Broseph44]

Guys, a lightsaber is not something you need to be a force user to master. It is a sword. If you understand melee weapons combat, you can be good with that weapon without every having used it. Again, it is just a sword made of light! Rey being able to be good with one is perfectly logical. She already understood melee weapons combat before she ever learned of the force. Watch TFA, she was quite capable with other weapons before they put a light saber in her hands.

The more I read on this forum, the more I feel people fundamentally misunderstand Jedi, the force, etc.

No, she shouldn’t be able to do any of this stuff unless she’s related to someone powerful in the force.

 

[Spider-Fan]

No, she shouldn’t be able to do any of this stuff unless she’s related to someone powerful in the force.

Because every Jedi in history was a Skywalker or a legacy from another Jedi.

 

[jmc]

Guys, a lightsaber is not something you need to be a force user to master. It is a sword. If you understand melee weapons combat, you can be good with that weapon without every having used it. Again, it is just a sword made of light! Rey being able to be good with one is perfectly logical. She already understood melee weapons combat before she ever learned of the force. Watch TFA, she was quite capable with other weapons before they put a light saber in her hands.

The more I read on this forum, the more I feel people fundamentally misunderstand Jedi, the force, etc.

But there's always been training involved with the Force. I don't understand why this is consistently being overlooked. We've gone from a tradition of people having to train to be a Jedi and Sith through to someone who's just kinda figured it out themselves for ill defined reasons. It's not consistent with the established rules of the universe.

 

[Broseph44]

Because every Jedi in history was a Skywalker or a legacy from another Jedi.

Exactly the point I keep trying to make to some people I was discussing this with recently. Not every Jedi or Sith or powerful force user in the universe was related to someone else powerful. The force connects all living things and if you’re force sensitive you can tap into it more than some others. But you don’t have to be related to someone else just to be able to do this.

I dunno a lot of the arguments and complaints I just don’t understand. Same with Snoke having no backstory in the 2 films in this trilogy. Just a powerful master who is arrogant and cocky and can’t foresee his apprentice turning on him. Now where have I seen that before and don’t recall people making a big deal about it hmmm.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But there's always been training involved with the Force. I don't understand why this is consistently being overlooked. We've gone from a tradition of people having to train to be a Jedi and Sith through to someone who's just kinda figured it out themselves for ill defined reasons. It's not consistent with the established rules of the universe.

Luke figured it out for himself. He trained with Yoda for like 2 days, and then learned the Force for himself.

 

[FunkMiller]

Luke figured it out for himself. He trained with Yoda for like 2 days, and then learned the Force for himself.

Luke’s training on Dagoba is barely more fleshed out or detailed than Rey’s on Achto.

 

[FunkMiller]

Exactly the point I keep trying to make to some people I was discussing this with recently. Not every Jedi or Sith or powerful force user in the universe was related to someone else powerful. The force connects all living things and if you’re force sensitive you can tap into it more than some others. But you don’t have to be related to someone else just to be able to do this.

I was ****ing DELIGHTED when Rey turned out to essentially be a ‘nobody’. The ‘chosen one’ ******** needs to die a quick death. It’s such an overused trope now, it’s ridiculous. I don’t need another ‘secretly born into power’ hero in my life. It would have been lazy, cliched and trite for her to be connected to the Skywalker or Kenobi family. I love the idea that the force can flow strongly through anyone, not just the members of one family.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Exactly the point I keep trying to make to some people I was discussing this with recently. Not every Jedi or Sith or powerful force user in the universe was related to someone else powerful. The force connects all living things and if you’re force sensitive you can tap into it more than some others. But you don’t have to be related to someone else just to be able to do this.

I dunno a lot of the arguments and complaints I just don’t understand. Same with Snoke having no backstory in the 2 films in this trilogy. Just a powerful master who is arrogant and cocky and can’t foresee his apprentice turning on him. Now where have I seen that before and don’t recall people making a big deal about it hmmm.

Agreed. I think this series by focusing on Anakin for 1-3 retroactively hurt the series because now people think only certain families can be Jedi it seems, ignoring the fact that Jedi can come from anywhere. You just need to be Force sensitive. It is like how Halloween 2 reusing Michael Myers ruined Carpenter's original idea for the series, which was an anthology on Halloween based around different concepts. People rejected Halloween 3 because it went back to that idea, and now all the movies need Myers and sort of ruined him for a long time. Episodes 1-3 did the same here making everyone assume it must chronicle the Slywalkers, ignoring the Galaxy and Jedi existed long before the Skywalkers, Kenobi, etc.

We all think of the Emperor having more development than Snoke thanks to Episodes 1-3, but for 15 years, the Emperor in film had exactly as much development as Snoke did. I would agree the Emperor is a better character by miles, but Snoke's lack of backstory is not a problem.

 

[Broseph44]

Agreed. I think this series by focusing on Anakin for 1-3 retroactively hurt the series because now people think only certain families can be Jedi it seems, ignoring the fact that Jedi can come from anywhere. You just need to be Force sensitive. It is like how Halloween 2 reusing Michael Myers ruined Carpenter's original idea for the series, which was an anthology on Halloween based around different concepts. People rejected Halloween 3 because it went back to that idea, and now all the movies need Myers and sort of ruined him for a long time. Episodes 1-3 did the same here making everyone assume it must chronicle the Slywalkers, ignoring the Galaxy and Jedi existed long before the Skywalkers, Kenobi, etc.

We all think of the Emperor having more development than Snoke thanks to Episodes 1-3, but for 15 years, the Emperor in film had exactly as much development as Snoke did. I would agree the Emperor is a better character by miles, but Snoke's lack of backstory is not a problem.

Agreed man. And yep it wasn’t really until the PT and books that more was learned about Sidious and his backstory. He was more interesting in the OT than Snoke I agree. But I think VileOne mentioned this and it’s true. Snoke in this trilogy, more so in this film really serves a purpose which was to further Kylo’s character along.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Agreed man. And yep it wasn’t really until the PT and books that more was learned about Sidious and his backstory. He was more interesting in the OT than Snoke I agree. But I think VileOne mentioned this and it’s true. Snoke in this trilogy, more so in this film really serves a purpose which was to further Kylo’s character along.

Agreed. The Emperor existed to be the final challenge in Luke's development. Snoke existed to be the final challenge in Kylo's development. Both work wonderfully.

 

[Broseph44]

Agreed. The Emperor existed to be the final challenge in Luke's development. Snoke existed to be the final challenge in Kylo's development. Both work wonderfully.

Yep and The Emperor also existed in Vader’s development to be Vader’s redemption and end his arc.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yep and The Emperor also existed in Vader’s development to be Vader’s redemption and end his arc.

This is where the Emperor worked better than Snoke and why ultimately that character was more successful. Snoke does not advance Rey much outside of explaining a little on why she is developing so quickly and is a threat to him, though he enhanced Kylo's arc. The Emperor enriched BOTH Luke's arc and Vader's.

But again, that is a different discussion than the one we're having about his backstory.

 

[Broseph44]

This is where the Emperor worked better than Snoke and why ultimately that character was more successful. Snoke does not advance Rey much outside of explaining a little on why she is developing so quickly and is a threat to him, though he enhanced Kylo's arc. The Emperor enriched BOTH Luke's arc and Vader's.

But again, that is a different discussion than the one we're having about his backstory.

Very true, it does more for Luke and Vader than Kylo and Rey. But yeah the backstory thing, not really a big deal. That’s more of just fans theorizing things in between films.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Episodes 1-3 did the same here making everyone assume it must chronicle the Slywalkers, ignoring the Galaxy and Jedi existed long before the Skywalkers, Kenobi, etc.

Love this.

I'll be honest, I have no love for the prequels any way - I've never gotten over idea that if you watch all the movies the way George apparently intended (i.e. start with Phantom Menace and work on through) the Luke/Vader revelation in ESB, one of THE key twists ever in cinema, is rendered redundant.

I would much rather have seen a KOTOR movie.

 

[Lilbaz]

Like the fact that rey is a nobody.
Have no problem with ren killing snoke.
Do have a problem that rey can master the force with little to no training.
Do have a problem that in the ot we are lead to believe that most of the powerful force users have been killed. That the empire was defeated and the rebels won. Yet up pops possibly the most powerful force user we have ever seen who is on the verge of taking over the galaxy with no explanation.
Many of the audience don't care about this and enjoy the film. Great for them but some of us do care and think it could have been handled better.

 

[jmc]

Luke figured it out for himself. He trained with Yoda for like 2 days, and then learned the Force for himself.

Over a 3 year period and the timeframe on Degobah is clearly condensed for the sake of the movie. Rey had what, 5 days? Maybe 7 between TFA and the end of TLJ. Not time consensed for the sake of the films length, the two stories literally span a few days. Come on, you can't honestly say it's the same when the timeline for each character is so vastly different.

 

[FunkMiller]

Over a 3 year period and the timeframe on Degobah is clearly condensed for the sake of the movie. Rey had what, 5 days? Maybe 7 between TFA and TLJ. Not time consensed for the sake of the films length, the two stories literally span a few days. Come on, you can't honestly say it's the same when the timeline for each character is so vastly different.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

 

[Aximili86]

So, you're honestly suggesting the Force just gave her a skill boost? No additional training required, just, boom, toe to toe with a Sith?

It can boost a 10 year old to be able to race a bucket of bolts at 500 mph through rocky canyons that killed every other racer but one out of a field of like 15.

It can boost a 19 year old farmboy yokel who'd never flown anything but farm equipment & recreational craft to be able to go toe-to-toe with elite Navy starpilots (including avoiding being shot down by said former 10 year old pod-whiz) in an X-Wing he'd never set foot in before and blow up the most advanced military installation in galactic history.

So...yeah? I guess? Watch some more Star Wars, man.

As for your training argument, how much training had Luke had in ANH when he blew up the Death Star? A single day of hangin' with Obi-Wan, 5 minutes with the helmet & droid training? Whoa, Luke's a regular Jedi post-grad, man. How long had he been training with Yoda before facing Vader? Couple of days tops, none of the training being actual saber-dueling (that we see)? If only Rey had been schooled to the extent Luke had! Dis-NEEEEEY!

How the **** did Luke go from capable-amateur in Empire to self-assured Force-wiz in Jedi, given the movies give the impression he hadn't been back to Yoda in-between movies, and seems he hadn't been interacting with ghost-Obi? OMIGAWD LUCAS DID IT TOO! Plotholes, I call for a petition to scrap Empire and Jedi from the canon. ZIS IS OUTRAGE!