The Last Jedi General Episode VIII News/Speculation/SPOILER Thread - - - - - Part 14

[flickchick85]

That's the narrative that's been thrown out there for the last week by outlet after outlet after outlet, and her camp has said nothing.. which typically means that have a say in said narrative as it's spotlighting Kelly. She could easily come out and support the direction that was taken for her character but hasn't. That also says a lot. I mean come on... her character was a pointless joke in Episode 8 and only served as a pawn for Rian's dumb narratives he wanted to inject into the story.

Sorry, but that's you projecting your own narrative onto her.

The "narrative" you're talking about is from fans of her and/or her character (yes, Rose has fans!) who were upset that she got sidelined. It's not on her to defend poor Abrams/Disney/Star Wars from criticism. Kelly has conducted herself with nothing but grace and poise throughout the whole shameful ordeal this fandom has put her through.

 

[BatLobster]

Sorry, but that's you projecting your own narrative onto her.

The "narrative" you're talking about is from fans of her and/or her character (yes, Rose has fans!) who were upset that she got sidelined. It's not on her to defend poor Abrams/Disney/Star Wars from criticism. Kelly has conducted herself with nothing but grace and poise throughout the whole shameful ordeal this fandom has put her through.

I have nothing but respect for how KMT has conducted herself, and stuff like the reception she got at Celebration are the sort of things that make you remember that there is still a warm and awesome side to fandom.

I do think they were in a tough spot with Rose for IX. Rian said that the conception of the character was essentially to take a background character from Star Wars and thrust them into the spotlight. He also said that he envisioned her and DJ as the angel and devil on Finn's shoulders in TLJ. By the end of the film, Finn has learned what he needed to learn, and both characters have served their main narrative function in the story. Couple in the fact that by the time we got to IX we were long overdue for seeing the main 3 together on an adventure. While I do think there could've been more of an effort to fit her into the plot, I think it's just more a casualty of this movie juggling a lot of balls in the air for a 2:20 runtime, and it's yet another thing a longer film could've potentially helped.

So I don't think it's quite fair that TROS is being accused as capitulating to toxic fans. First of all the movie was being written (and heading into production on a condensed timeline) while all of that was happening, so it's pretty doubtful there was anything reactive about the decision-making. Second of all they did shoot more scenes with her which unfortunately were cut, but it sounds like there's a lot of that with this film and it's just the the kind of thing happens all the time with filmmaking-- especially films of this size.

I understand if fans of the character felt robbed, but I just think it's unfortunate that we're so quick to jump to the worst case scenario and assign a malicious intent to a situation with many factors at play.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's the narrative that's been thrown out there for the last week by outlet after outlet after outlet, and her camp has said nothing.. which typically means that have a say in said narrative as it's spotlighting Kelly. She could easily come out and support the direction that was taken for her character but hasn't. That also says a lot. I mean come on... her character was a pointless joke in Episode 8 and only served as a pawn for Rian's dumb narratives he wanted to inject into the story.

I'm sorry but this is complete and utter crap. If Kelly came out publicly and was trashing JJ and such, then there'd be a problem. That be something we could maybe critique her for. But her saying nothing and people getting upset about her saying nothing is absolutely not her fault. This is again a bunch of people trying to spin their own narrative based on her their personal feelings on her. I think people need to go find better uses for their time

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I say even if you think TLJ is the best Star Wars movie, this is accurate:

Force Awakens editor still sounds pretty peeved about The Last Jedi

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Sorry, but that's you projecting your own narrative onto her.

The "narrative" you're talking about is from fans of her and/or her character (yes, Rose has fans!) who were upset that she got sidelined. It's not on her to defend poor Abrams/Disney/Star Wars from criticism. Kelly has conducted herself with nothing but grace and poise throughout the whole shameful ordeal this fandom has put her through.

I too am upset that Rian Johnson created Rose, only to sideline her in TLJ, making it clear she only existed because Rian and Kennedy really got turned on by the idea of Phantom of the First Order making it with Rey Christine. I can't believe JJ did that in TLJ!

 

[TheVileOne]

Well that's at least partially on Abrams and Kennedy. Abrams left the franchise behind and didn't want to be involved with the last two movies. Abrams also appeared fine with all of Johnson's choices and didn't try to persuade him to make any changes.

Kennedy also gave Johnson free reign without saying no, despite you know, firing Lord and Miller for apparently not following Kasdans' script.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well that's at least partially on Abrams and Kennedy. Abrams left the franchise behind and didn't want to be involved with the last two movies. Abrams also appeared fine with all of Johnson's choices and didn't try to persuade him to make any changes.

Kennedy also gave Johnson free reign without saying no, despite you know, firing Lord and Miller for apparently not following Kasdans' script.

You can blame Kennedy. Blaming JJ makes no sense, especially as JJ was forced to make changes to TFA because of Rian, after he started filming. Also the myth that there was no direction after TFA is just that, a myth. We know it's utter BS because multiple people have confirmed it, including Daisy Ridley. There is a very specific scene cut from TFA that confirms it.

But beyond all that, Rian knew TFA existed. He was the one who decided to change the direction of the train nearly completely.

 

[TheVileOne]

You can blame Kennedy. Blaming JJ makes no sense, especially as JJ was forced to make changes to TFA because of Rian, after he started filming. Also the myth that there was no direction after TFA is just that, a myth. We know it's utter BS because multiple people have confirmed it, including Daisy Ridley. There is a very specific scene cut from TFA that confirms it.

But beyond all that, Rian knew TFA existed. He was the one who decided to change the direction of the train nearly completely.

I do blame JJ Abrams because he didn't want to take a creative role on any of the sequels.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I do blame JJ Abrams because he didn't want to take a creative role on any of the sequels.

He wrote out outlines for the next two movies. Is what you are telling me it is his fault he didn't force them on Kennedy and Johnson, even as that was never his role and he couldn't possibly do that? That and as a husband and a father he decided he didn't want to jump right back into to two more years of disruption for his family, as Disney was determined to have the sequel by 2017? Is that your actual argument?

 

[Snow Queen]

I say even if you think TLJ is the best Star Wars movie, this is accurate:

Force Awakens editor still sounds pretty peeved about The Last Jedi

It's interesting to hear similar thoughts come from a voice behind the scenes. As a viewer, I find Last Jedi disheartening to watch as I find what I enjoyed from TFA to no longer be present, and I think the overall package is... lacking, to say the least. I imagine that's a pretty disappointing experience when you're actually involved in the production and feel the same.

 

[TheVileOne]

He wrote out outlines for the next two movies. Is what you are telling me it is his fault he didn't force them on Kennedy and Johnson, even as that was never his role and he couldn't possibly do that? That and as a husband and a father he decided he didn't want to jump right back into to two more years of disruption for his family, as Disney was determined to have the sequel by 2017? Is that your actual argument?

Yes.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

TROS wasn’t very good, but lots of the stuff I didn’t like about it came from TLJ. For me TLJ got worse over time before TROS anyway, now I downright hate it.

Johnson is a good Director, but keep him the hell away from established characters and franchises in future please.

 

[#root]

I think the editor has it the wrong way. TLJ wasn’t really guilty of undoing the story of TFA but TROS definitely did everything it could to undermine TLJ.

“It’s like if someone wrote the middle of your novel. Now how do you get the end of the novel?” Brandon asks—despite the fact that Abrams was only asked back to direct Episode IX after Disney got cold feet about Colin Trevorrow’s take on what was supposed, by design, to be a film trilogy with no particular author at all.

That’s the other thing, Abrams wasn’t the author. He may have started this trilogy but he only came back because the producers were desperate. It’s just so messy how this whole trilogy was handled. And I think that mainly falls on the producers’ lack of planning and foresight but also a little bit on Abrams. The over-reliance on familiarity and the mystery box approach to the plot are his trademarks and they really affected my enjoyment of TFA. Still nothing could’ve prepared me for how bad TROS turned out to be. Despite all his shortcomings, I never thought Abrams could ever make such a bad movie .

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes.

That's completely ridiculous.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think the editor has it the wrong way. TLJ wasn’t really guilty of undoing the story of TFA but TROS definitely did everything it could to undermine TLJ.

That’s the other thing, Abrams wasn’t the author. He may have started this trilogy but he only came back because the producers were desperate. It’s just so messy how this whole trilogy was handled. And I think that mainly falls on the producers’ lack of planning and foresight but also a little bit on Abrams. The over-reliance on familiarity and the mystery box approach to the plot are his trademarks and they really affected my enjoyment of TFA. Still nothing could’ve prepared me for how bad TROS turned out to be. Despite all his shortcomings, I never thought Abrams could ever make such a bad movie .

What is the mystery box about TFA? I know people like to mention this because it is JJ thing. But what about TFA is a mystery box?

1. It never ask you to question whose Rey's parents are.

2. The movie flat out tells you why Luke left.

3. It tells you who Kylo Ren is in the first half of the film.

Not knowing who Snoke is one thing. But that isn't even a question Rian answers. Rian isn't interested, he just kills him.

Every issue I have with TROS is down to TLJ and the edit. The latter is not the usual JJ, so I have a hard time thinking it was his decision to trim his own movie to death. He has never done that before.

 

[Man in the Suit]

JJ Abrams is a hack and undid his own movie with the dumbest choices imaginable.

 

[I Am The Knight]

What is the mystery box about TFA? I know people like to mention this because it is JJ thing. But what about TFA is a mystery box?

1. It never ask you to question whose Rey's parents are.

2. The movie flat out tells you why Luke left.

3. It tells you who Kylo Ren is in the first half of the film.

Not knowing who Snoke is one thing. But that isn't even a question Rian answers. Rian isn't interested, he just kills him.

Every issue I have with TROS is down to TLJ and the edit. The latter is not the usual JJ, so I have a hard time thinking it was his decision to trim his own movie to death. He has never done that before.

Rey calls herself a "big secret" and she's pulling off Jedi stuff left and right with no Obi Wan around. Kylo reacts violently when someone mentions a "girl", then there's the vision in Maz's castle, and the lightsaber calling out to her, etc. The fact that people were coming up with theories of who she was is a testament as to how mystery box she was

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Rey calls herself a "big secret" and she's pulling off Jedi stuff left and right with no Obi Wan around. Kylo reacts violently when someone mentions a "girl", then there's the vision in Maz's castle, and the lightsaber calling out to her, etc. The fact that people were coming up with theories of who she was is a testament as to how mystery box she was

1. That's a joke, after BB-8 calls himself top secret.

2. When does the movie ask you who she is? There is no indication she doesn't know who her parents are in the movie. Just that she misses them.

3. Okay I get that I watch and read way too much Star Wars, but people use the force all the time without training. Anakin did it in TPM. Ezra did it . A baby did it on TCW. Luke was using it to shoot tiny animals on Tatooine. All Force sensitive do it, because that is how you find out they are force sensitive.

Where is the Obi-Wan that taught this little guy how to do this?

4. JJ had a scene that made it clear who Rey was. Guess why he cut it?

 

[Snow Queen]

Rey never felt mystery box-y to me. I actually feel that TFA shows a lot of growth from Into Darkness on that front. Maybe a little more setup was needed for the position of the galaxy, but I thought it was serviceable and enough that could be expanded upon in a sequel in interesting ways. Back to Rey herself though, she didn't really demonstrate anything that felt abnormal to me. Maybe it's just because of other pieces of the franchise, but it all felt very Star Wars to me and built wonderfully in my eyes.

In retrospect, Rey's parentage feels a bit choppy and I think that largely has to do with the aforementioned by DarthSkywalker removal of certain scenes during production. I expect, like Luke and the rocks, this had to do with the fact Abrams wasn't making the sequel and so had to accommodate the direction they wanted to go in. I think it would help strengthen what the film does feel like it's building to, a showdown over the Skywalker legacy. Whether that's Kylo on the dark side and Rey on the light as a sister, cousin or student, any of those options I think fits nicely with the themes it felt like TFA was building to. But then TLJ goes in a different direction I can't say I liked at all, and TROS feels like it's trying to reconcile those two directions.

 

[antsman41]

1. That's a joke, after BB-8 calls himself top secret.

2. When does the movie ask you who she is? There is no indication she doesn't know who her parents are in the movie. Just that she misses them.

3. Okay I get that I watch and read way too much Star Wars, but people use the force all the time without training. Anakin did it in TPM. Ezra did it . A baby did it on TCW. Luke was using it to shoot tiny animals on Tatooine. All Force sensitive do it, because that is how you find out they are force sensitive.

Where is the Obi-Wan that taught this little guy how to do this?

4. JJ had a scene that made it clear who Rey was. Guess why he cut it?

THIS.

 

[BatLobster]

When Maz asks Han "who's the girl?....", and then we immediately cutaway....yeah. It was a classic mystery box. Complete with scattershot flashback fragments and everything. The movie is so clearly trying to tease us with questions about her identity. IMO that's why it almost had to go in a direction less obvious.

But to TFA's credit, it does also seed the ideas that her parents are never coming back and "the longing you seek is not behind you. It is in front of you". I mean that right there is very consistent with the idea of it going in more of a 'found family' direction and her not being related to the Skywalkers. That line actually works better when you think about it in context of the whole Rey Palpatine thing. Because if she was Han and Leia's daughter of Luke's daughter....why would the belonging she seek not be in her past/bloodline? That's exactly where it would be.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

1. That's a joke, after BB-8 calls himself top secret.

2. When does the movie ask you who she is? There is no indication she doesn't know who her parents are in the movie. Just that she misses them.

3. Okay I get that I watch and read way too much Star Wars, but people use the force all the time without training. Anakin did it in TPM. Ezra did it . A baby did it on TCW. Luke was using it to shoot tiny animals on Tatooine. All Force sensitive do it, because that is how you find out they are force sensitive.

Where is the Obi-Wan that taught this little guy how to do this?

4. JJ had a scene that made it clear who Rey was. Guess why he cut it?

Rey never felt mystery box-y to me. I actually feel that TFA shows a lot of growth from Into Darkness on that front. Maybe a little more setup was needed for the position of the galaxy, but I thought it was serviceable and enough that could be expanded upon in a sequel in interesting ways. Back to Rey herself though, she didn't really demonstrate anything that felt abnormal to me. Maybe it's just because of other pieces of the franchise, but it all felt very Star Wars to me and built wonderfully in my eyes.

In retrospect, Rey's parentage feels a bit choppy and I think that largely has to do with the aforementioned by DarthSkywalker removal of certain scenes during production. I expect, like Luke and the rocks, this had to do with the fact Abrams wasn't making the sequel and so had to accommodate the direction they wanted to go in. I think it would help strengthen what the film does feel like it's building to, a showdown over the Skywalker legacy. Whether that's Kylo on the dark side and Rey on the light as a sister, cousin or student, any of those options I think fits nicely with the themes it felt like TFA was building to. But then TLJ goes in a different direction I can't say I liked at all, and TROS feels like it's trying to reconcile those two directions.

Hell yes to both of these posts

 

[#root]

What is the mystery box about TFA? I know people like to mention this because it is JJ thing. But what about TFA is a mystery box?

1. It never ask you to question whose Rey's parents are.

I guess we just feel too differently about this but imo Rey’s identity was a huge mystery in the marketing and the film itself and her parentage is a part of that identity.

Kylo reacts violently when someone mentions a "girl", then there's the vision in Maz's castle, and the lightsaber calling out to her, etc.

When Maz asks Han "who's the girl?....", and then we immediately cutaway....yeah. It was a classic mystery box. Complete with scattershot flashback fragments and everything. The movie is so clearly trying to tease us with questions about her identity.

All these scenes were purposefully building suspense about her identity. Plus it was Abrams’ decision to deliberately keep Finn and Rey’s full names hidden in the marketing. There was a whole big hubbub about how other characters were named completely but these two weren’t. The movie doesn’t give us Rey’s full name and it turns out Finn doesn’t even have a one. There was also that whole switcheroo in the marketing with Finn being depicted as the force sensitive one wielding a lightsaber and everything.

Abrams also gave very little information on Snoke, the First Order, Maz Kanata (how she came into the possession of the lightsaber), Phasma, Poe even. I mean say whatever you want about the rest but Poe’s a main character and part of the new trio yet even he was literally an afterthought. He was supposed to be a minor character who died but Isaac wanted him to live so Abrams decided he should become part of the “new trio” even though he’s barely in the movie.

I don’t know man, I was a huge fan of Abrams for a long time. Star Trek 09 was my jam. But yeah. It’s just such a shame. So much potential squandered.

 

[I Am The Knight]

1. That's a joke, after BB-8 calls himself top secret.

2. When does the movie ask you who she is? There is no indication she doesn't know who her parents are in the movie. Just that she misses them.

3. Okay I get that I watch and read way too much Star Wars, but people use the force all the time without training. Anakin did it in TPM. Ezra did it . A baby did it on TCW. Luke was using it to shoot tiny animals on Tatooine. All Force sensitive do it, because that is how you find out they are force sensitive.

Where is the Obi-Wan that taught this little guy how to do this?

4. JJ had a scene that made it clear who Rey was. Guess why he cut it?

The film is not asking itself who she is, because they had their own version of who she was at the time and simply weren't tellling, before RJ went with his own version.TFA IS inviting the audience to question who she is and where she comes from, though. Who are her parents? What's her last name? Why was she abandoned? Why is she seemingly good at Force stuff?

I get that you don't have to be a Jedi Knight or whatever to tap into the Force, but in the context of the films people expect these kind of stuff from the Jedi, especially at the time that TFA came out. Explaining this stuff away by pointing out to other material that 90% of the film's audience will not see or read is a slippery slope. Look, this is what Abrams does. He plays with people's expectations about what they know, he's all about the setup. With TFA, he knew people would go "oh she must be X or Y because she can do Z". He just wasn't telling who she was, which is fine, but let's not pretend the questions weren't there.

TFA is compared to ANH all the time, so let's compare how her identity is framed to how Luke's identity is framed. What's mysterious about Luke? He's essentially a farm boy who dreams about the world out there. In 1977, he had no real backstory, and by the end of the film he was pretty much a complete character who realized his dream via the Rebel Alliance. Sure, he didn't direcrly face Vader over the death of his father, but he did "beat him", and if Star Wars had ended there, no one would be wondering if there was something iffy about Luke's identity.

Compare that to Rey and the pseudo mystery regarding her. If there had been no Episodes VIII or IX, people would still be wondering who she really was, and the stuff with her parents would be completely unresolved.

 

[BatLobster]

@I Am The Knight exactly.

If you compare Luke and Rey in their respective introductory films, it's very different. We know that Luke's father was a Jedi who was trained by Ben, we know Vader killed his father, we know Luke wants to become a Jedi because of his father. Even though his father's identity ends up recontexualizing all of that, we have a lot more context for Luke's journey. It's all very much centered around Luke's coming of age and yearning for his father.

If you compare it to Rey, it's very different. All we know is that her family, presumably her parents, dropped her off on Jakku at some point and this character with no known last name thinks she is meant to wait for them to come back for her. I mean, that just opens a whole host of questions, especially when the film is intentionally playing on our preconceived notion that she will be related to someone important. Did her parents know she was strong in the Force and dropped her off to hide/protect her? It seems like a possibility, but the film does't commit to giving us ANY relevant information there. And she DOES display Force abilities far beyond what Luke did right off the bat. Luke didn't do a Jedi mind trick until ROTJ, with Rey it is her first display of Force ability. As JJ has said, that was not an accident. Said it was "spooky".

That is textbook "mystery box" storytelling. And that's before getting into the whole aspect of ROTJ's victory being undone, Luke being gone, a new Empire-like threat rising, another fallen Skywalker being the bad guy. The starting point of the film is pretty much "Where is Luke, how/why did things go bad again, and who is this girl??" That is the place it starts from, and the rest of the trilogy is essentially trying to catch us up on all of that as we move forward. Now sure, you could still watch the film as a newcomer to the saga and enjoy it as its own adventure, but there are fundamental questions at play for anyone familiar with the storytelling of Star Wars.