Sequels "Going Wrath Of Khan":The Official MOS Action Thread

[buggs0268]

OK, with regards to the first paragraph; we've no idea how long it takes for Supes to charge up. For all we know, a short exposure to sunlight will charge him up, good as new (or you could be right). The reason Supes falls after he shoves it into orbit is Newton's 3rd Law, because an orbiting object is actually falling, but it is moving so fast that it literally fallss off the edge of the world (welcome to the Flat Earth Society everyone t: ).

And as for your prediction; I won't say you're right or wrong at this point, but saying that they will or won't is a dangerous game to play. You're all well aware that I'm concerned at WB getting ahead of itself by starting spinoffs from JLA even though nothing has been shot and there are concerns over the script (I'm yet to frequent the shiny new JL forums, so if something new has come up, then please do tell me). I've learnt, after many a hard loss at Warhammer Fantasy TT, you can predict the snake eyes, but never the double sixes.

Well he was laying that crater in that very same sun, not to mention he had a stronger dose outside the atmosphere and was out for a day. So why didn't he just recharg real quick then?

Yeah but the big huge rock that weighs more than him is floating out to space, out of earths atmosphere. And he was in the middle of it so he should have been going out to space with it too. Inertia my friend. If there was enough inertia to push it, and he was the force behind that push, and as soon as he let go he was dying, then he would have still been going in the same direction. They did it in the Lester cut of S2 with the elevator.

 

[X-Maniac]

I never said BATMAN BEGINS was overrated (I rather enjoy many elements of it), just like I never implied Singer is the savior of Superman (The closest we came to that, believe it or not, was Brett Ratner circa 2002).

X2 is a very entertaining movie. However, like X-MEN, it's not really all that structurally well put together. Entertaining as hell, though.

I can never understand the current fangasms over X2 - at the time the movie was released, it didn’t get standing ovations, some critics hated it for its flat climax and the reaction online was mixed because Cyclops had a reduced role, Wolverine had an expanded role and everyone kept asking why Jean had to leave the plane at the end - the same question came up every time a new person joined the forums and it still comes up now.. years later!

I think it comes down to themes and roles. The X-movies changed over time. X1 had mostly accurate themes and roles, in X2 the themes were there but the roles were slipping, in X3 neither the themes or the roles were intact. It’s like watching a sliding scale of deviation from the spirit of the source material into some kind of alternative univierse elseworld tale. X3 is still damned good entertainment, it’s main flaws were excessive studio interference, chop-chop camerawork and the excision of material that would have given more soul to the movie. Almost all of the deleted scenes we know about from the DVD should be in the movie and would have made it far more rounded and less abrupt. All those involved with X3 were absolutely and totally insane if they thought killing Cyclops, curing Rogue and reducing Phoenix to a silent zombie with no firebird were going to get fans rushing back for multiple repeat viewings. One of the worst misjudgements ever made in a comicbook movie. Hence the massive second week drop and the online fury.

In SR, the themes are there but poorly explored (key story points like Superman’s disappearance and return and its impact on him and others, Lex’s freedom, Lois’s behaviour/pregnancy, are glossed over), as a result the roles seem shaky. Hence the mixed reaction online.

I think in Batman Begins you really do get a true sense of why someone would become Batman and that’s why it works.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Well...I agree with the Guard about the movie having great scenes. BUt thats it for me.

THe story of the movie, characterization, especially Luthor`s, was a piece of ****!!

When u analize deeply the story elements, it pisses me off more. So I thought the BAD outweighted the GOOD in my opinion. And it makes me more sad because this was the first Superman movie i saw in the theaters after a LOOOOOOOONG time with no Superman movies and all we get was this???

I was completely disappointed and still am and I hope Singer never comes back. He was supposed to get Superman right in THE FIRST TIME and didnt do it, IMO so to think he is going to do a 180 and change everything for the better is way too optmisitc for my tastes. I am a optmistic guy but i`m not stupid.

 

[NotFadeAway]

He came close to being it. I say this because, from everything I've seen about Ratner's time on the SUPERMAN origin project, he got it. Ratner wanted a hopeful, epic movie about a young man learning to deal with his superpowers. An origin film that featured Jor-El and Lara, both Kents and adequate roles for Lois, Jimmy and Perry White. He took over from McG with that infamous JJ Abrams SUPERMAN script (which isn't that bad, and was much better later on). Ratner was quoted as talking about Superman's tradition (he was adamant about the red and blue "tights" look at a time when WB wanted body armor) wanted a Superman origin film that featured a corporate Lex Luthor and Kryptonian villains, massive action, powerful themes about alienation, learning to live with superpowers, and manhood VS Godhood.

Ratner chose to leave the project, stating it was over the difficulty of casting Superman. However, it was clearly mainly over the fact that Ratner wanted to scour the globe for unknowns, and WB wanted a "name" (I believe they were still courting Josh Hartnett at the time, and had made an attempt to get Brendan Fraser interested). Ratner apparently wanted Matthew Bomer to play his Superman. Ironically, Kevin Spacey was rumored to be in the running for Lex Luthor for that project, too at one point.

Had Ratner gotten his Superman actor, it makes me wonder what we could have gotten with the kind of budget WB was willing to shell out at the time and a solid script backing it.

I see and agree with alot of your points here. The theme's of manhood vs. godhood, alienation, learning to live with powers and immortality, etc etc is stuff I would really like to see played up in a Superman film. And I was one of the few who were ok with Kryptonian villians not named Zod being in the film. I'll tell you what, Kata-Zor and Ty-Zor were evil guys and would have made you hate them, in a villianous way. And the third draft of the script, which was rewritten by Josh Scwhartz, was much, much improved over the 1st and 2nd draft. Lex Luthor was no longer Kryptonian or possesed by kryptonians, he infact discovered Kal-El's ship before Pa Kent could return to get it and hide, and therefor is the reason the Kents forbid Clark to use his powers, knowing that someone knows what he is. Lex was a recent college graduate at the time of discovering Kal-El's ship, and with a lust for power and money and with Lex's natural smarts, used the ship's technology to build LexCorp. You can still see the remnants of this script today in Smallville.

Now, while I like what he wanted the film to be, I don't know if Ratner is a good enough director to get us there. Probably not, unfortunately. Ratner did practically have the rest of the movie cast, however. Anthony Hopkins was Jor-El, Ralph Fiennes was Lex, Keri Russell was Lois, Christopher Walken was Perry, Shia Lebouf was Jimmy, Jason Isaacs was Kata-Zor, Joel Edgerton was Ty-Zor, and James Garner was Pa Kent. You were right, the studio wanted Hartnett, Fraser, or Paul Walker, but Ratner wanted his unknown, which was Matthew Bomer. Henry Cavill's name, which was my choice, surfaced toward the very end of Ratner's time on the project. The studio did however test David Boreanaz for the role, and both Ratner and the studio loved him but Boreanaz couldn't take the role do to Angel being brought back, so they went back to there Bomer/Hartnett pissing contest.

I'll say again when it comes to being "epic", I don't want it for the next film. I want a smaller, character driven, personal film about the character of Superman/Clark Kent and those in his life with a great villian and a couple intense, satisfying action scene's. Bu alot of those theme's, alientation, manhood vs. godhood, learning to live with powers, immortality, those are theme's I want explored. Along with corporate/politician Lex of course. Screw the Kingpin, Lex Luthor owns him anyway!

 

[Porygon]

I rarely think in those terms. SUPERMAN RETURNS has both good and bad points in my mind. The good mostly outweight the bad (which can be classified mostly as annoyances). Singer's a great visual director, and SUPERMAN RETURNS was no different in that regard than his past films. There are some great shots and sequences. There are some truly great moments in the movie. I mean, we're talking about a movie that features a hell of a credits sequence, the return of "the theme", Superman catching a falling plane, lifting an island, stopping disasters in Metropolis, Lex Luthor beating the hell out of The Man of Steel, a pretty solid romantic sequence, Fortress stuff...there's too much there not to like at least some of it.

I was disappointed when Singer cut the return to Krypton. I think half the emotional weight of the film dropped off right then and there. Brandon Routh's performance on the Kent farm just didn't build that theme enough for it to last throughout the film. Martha Kent was underutilized and essentially wasted. I also thought Singer made a mistake not making Clark Kent more of a "character" and relying on him to be Superman's "mask", and while I liked the idea of a movie exploring whether or not the world needs Superman...it just wasn't explored in a satisfactory manner. The kid wasn't a terrible idea conceptwise, but he was annoying and cliche and not well executed at all until the final scene in his bedroom. Lois was Loisy enough for my taste, and I have few issues with her writing and portrayal, though Bosworth is not my ideal for the character. I loved Richard White, but that might be just because I really like James Marsden.

I thought Kevin Spacey did quite a lot with very little. Lex Luthor, however, as the movie progressed, was fantastically evil. My main beef with Lex in the movie is that his real motivations are never explored beyond "revenge". The thugs and his bimbo are what they are, no real issues there, though there was no need for the "out of control car" sequence, and no real payoff for Kitty/Superman's interactions.

I would prefer to see Olsen and White as more characters and not so much as comic relief/tension builders. Jimmy has never truly been "Superman's pal" onscreen, or even in the TV series, and White has potential that few ever tap into.

I was more or less pleased with the action. It's really a pretty big film when you actually sit back and look at the scale of things going on, and the action was fairly well done.

But if WB/Bryan Singer can find the right concept, I say give him another shot with MAN OF STEEL. I think a sequel has great potential. There were moments in SUPERMAN RETURNS that were awe-inspiring, and a sequel can build on that magic and hopefully bring more of it to the table.

I envision a sequel that utilizes Braniac, Luthor seeking revenge on a larger level, an exploration of Superman's kid, Superman and Lois, even Richard...could be one hell of a movie.

Such an intelligent post, and an accurate view of Superman Returns (at least IMO)

 

[Showtime]

I don't think Superman needs another origin. I wouldn't mind one, but I think I would want to see a reboot. Tell the story as if Superman has been here and he is part of society and move from there. You don't need to acknowledge the Donner/Singerverse, but you don't need to abolish it either.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I envision a sequel that utilizes Braniac, Luthor seeking revenge on a larger level, an exploration of Superman's kid, Superman and Lois, even Richard...could be one hell of a movie.

How can Luthor possibly seek revenge on a larger level? His plan from SR was already going to kill billions! How does it get bigger than that?!

 

[brucekent]

How can Luthor possibly seek revenge on a larger level? His plan from SR was already going to kill billions! How does it get bigger than that?!

who says bigger has to mean more people? why can't it just be more incedious?

 

[Angeloz]

How can Luthor possibly seek revenge on a larger level? His plan from SR was already going to kill billions! How does it get bigger than that?!

The whole Earth? The Solar System? The Galaxy? The Universe? As some initial thoughts. Or what brucekent said.

Angeloz

 

[FlawlessVictory]

who says bigger has to mean more people? why can't it just be more incedious?

Hmmm, there just doesn't seem to me much that would be worse than killing billions of people but ok.

The whole Earth? The Solar System? The Galaxy? The Universe? As some initial thoughts. Or what brucekent said.

Angeloz

Is this Lex Luthor or Dr. Evil? t:

 

[Angeloz]

Hmmm, there just doesn't seem to me much that would be worse than killing billions of people but ok.



Is this Lex Luthor or Dr. Evil? t:

LOL. You asked.

Angeloz

 

[Mr. Socko]

I can never understand the current fangasms over X2 - at the time the movie was released, it didn’t get standing ovations, some critics hated it for its flat climax and the reaction online was mixed because Cyclops had a reduced role, Wolverine had an expanded role and everyone kept asking why Jean had to leave the plane at the end - the same question came up every time a new person joined the forums and it still comes up now.. years later!

You don't understand the current "fangasm" for X2 but you understand it for Batman Begins? I can't speak for when it first came out, but now it seems to be a widely liked movie. And if it truly wasn't liked by the 'fanboys' when it first came out, then the fine wine analogy can appropriately be placed here. Much like Star Wars, whose original film received many mixed reviews but is now loved by more than you can imagine. Cyclops may have had a reduced role, Wolverine may have an expanded one, but none of that takes away from it's merit as a film on it's own. You'd be hard-pressed to find a review that says "X2 sucks because Cyclops didn't have enough screen time." Oh and a quick search on Rottentomatoes shows that X2: X-Men United has a higher average and critical score than Batman Begins. But don't get me wrong, I like Begins.

I think it comes down to themes and roles. The X-movies changed over time. X1 had mostly accurate themes and roles, in X2 the themes were there but the roles were slipping, in X3 neither the themes or the roles were intact. It’s like watching a sliding scale of deviation from the spirit of the source material into some kind of alternative univierse elseworld tale. X3 is still damned good entertainment, it’s main flaws were excessive studio interference, chop-chop camerawork and the excision of material that would have given more soul to the movie. Almost all of the deleted scenes we know about from the DVD should be in the movie and would have made it far more rounded and less abrupt. All those involved with X3 were absolutely and totally insane if they thought killing Cyclops, curing Rogue and reducing Phoenix to a silent zombie with no firebird were going to get fans rushing back for multiple repeat viewings. One of the worst misjudgements ever made in a comicbook movie. Hence the massive second week drop and the online fury.

I think X2 accurately represented the themes and roles better than X1 and X3. X1 had the right mindset, but the execution wasn't as good as it could have been, and it wasn't as big of a superhero picture as it should have been. X3 was just a soul-less bore.

In SR, the themes are there but poorly explored (key story points like Superman’s disappearance and return and its impact on him and others, Lex’s freedom, Lois’s behaviour/pregnancy, are glossed over), as a result the roles seem shaky. Hence the mixed reaction online.

Here, I agree.

I think in Batman Begins you really do get a true sense of why someone would become Batman and that’s why it works.

I think in X2: X-Men United you really get a true sense of why these superheroes work together for a greater cause and that's why it worked.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Whatever your problems with SR may be (the kid, "Real Estate Lex"), I'll be forever bewildered by the hatred of the lifting NK climax.

Doesn't anyone just enjoy a good old "come from behind" victory anymore? Are you that jaded? I mean, besides the obvious points that The Guard mentioned (being supercharged by the sun, etc), are you saying that no hero in any movie has ever or should ever fight back from the brink of death and overcome, pumping with adrenaline (or in this case, solar power)?

Haven't any of you ever seen a Rocky movie?

 

[Porygon]

Whatever your problems with SR may be (the kid, "Real Estate Lex"), I'll be forever bewildered by the hatred of the lifting NK climax.

Doesn't anyone just enjoy a good old "come from behind" victory anymore? Are you that jaded? I mean, besides the obvious points that The Guard mentioned (being supercharged by the sun, etc), are you saying that no hero in any movie has ever or should ever fight back from the brink of death and overcome, pumping with adrenaline (or in this case, solar power)?

Haven't any of you ever seen a Rocky movie?

Don't you see? If the film was brighter, the kid was gone and everything else was basically a copy of S:TAS, then they would like it. But since they didn't get the film tailored specifically for them, everything sucks.

That's how fanboys work.

 

[Angeloz]

Don't you see? If the film was brighter, the kid was gone and everything else was basically a copy of S:TAS, then they would like it. But since they didn't get the film tailored specifically for them, everything sucks.

That's how fanboys work.

You forgot to add the muscle discussions too. Especially with the chest.

Angeloz

 

[Porygon]

You forgot to add the muscle discussions too. Especially with the chest.

Angeloz

"Unless Routh weighs 250 pounds, I simply cannot believe him lifting a giant continent over his head" t:

 

[Angeloz]

"Unless Routh weighs 250 pounds, I simply cannot believe him lifting a giant continent over his head" t:

LOL.

Angeloz

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Don't you see? If the film was brighter, the kid was gone and everything else was basically a copy of S:TAS, then they would like it. But since they didn't get the film tailored specifically for them, everything sucks.

That's how fanboys work.

It's funny because people usually hate movies that are made "by committee" (Spider-Man 3). They sqwawk and moan about how the studio shouldn't interfer with the director's vision. But when the director's vision doesn't match the fans' vision, it becomes "Why didn't anyone stop him?!"

 

[Super Kal]

Don't you see? If the film was brighter, the kid was gone and everything else was basically a copy of S:TAS, then they would like it. But since they didn't get the film tailored specifically for them, everything sucks.

That's how fanboys work.

see, that's EXACTLY where you're wrong.

I support Singer's use of originality in the movie, even though it was severely lacking. Don't talk for others when you don't know what they want.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Whatever your problems with SR may be (the kid, "Real Estate Lex"), I'll be forever bewildered by the hatred of the lifting NK climax.

Doesn't anyone just enjoy a good old "come from behind" victory anymore? Are you that jaded? I mean, besides the obvious points that The Guard mentioned (being supercharged by the sun, etc), are you saying that no hero in any movie has ever or should ever fight back from the brink of death and overcome, pumping with adrenaline (or in this case, solar power)?

Haven't any of you ever seen a Rocky movie?

I find it to be one of the best 3rd acts in ANY SH movie, the range of emotions it takes you through is astonishing, and something you just dont get in a typical blockbuster.

 

[NotFadeAway]

Don't you see? If the film was brighter, the kid was gone and everything else was basically a copy of S:TAS, then they would like it. But since they didn't get the film tailored specifically for them, everything sucks.

That's how fanboys work.

Now that would be a step in the right direction.......

 

[Porygon]

Now that would be a step in the right direction.......

Thank you for proving my point. Did you even read all my post?

 

[Porygon]

It's funny because people usually hate movies that are made "by committee" (Spider-Man 3). They sqwawk and moan about how the studio shouldn't interfer with the director's vision. But when the director's vision doesn't match the fans' vision, it becomes "Why didn't anyone stop him?!"

The funnier thing is, before Spider-Man 3 was released, Avi Arad revealed in an interview that it was him who persuaded Raimi to shove Venom into SM3 "because the fans wanted it". The fans were like "thank God". But as soon as SM3 came out and they didn't like it, all of a sudden it was Rami's fault for succumbing to Arad.

 

[El Payaso]

The funnier thing is, before Spider-Man 3 was released, Avi Arad revealed in an interview that it was him who persuaded Raimi to shove Venom into SM3 "because the fans wanted it". The fans were like "thank God". But as soon as SM3 came out and they didn't like it, all of a sudden it was Rami's fault for succumbing to Arad.

That's what happens when you mix fans opinions with Arad's ones. And then you listen to it.

 

[Super Kal]

I enjoyed Venom...




yeah, you heard me right.