Green Lantern question...

[boywondernerdDC]

The Lantern has to understand the thing they're creating to some extent. I think the rings will handle really technical details, but if the Lantern has no idea what Kryptonite's properties or physical composition are, I doubt he'd be able to make one. If the Lantern understands what kind of radiation the Kryptonite emits, though, I agree with wieg, they could probably just make a rock shape and have it emit that same form of radiation. Not quite Kryptonite, but close enough to get the job done.

i agree


by the way i love the batman robin sig good issue

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Heh, funny that I just changed it.

 

[celldog]

I pretty sure a Lantern has used Kryptonite from a ring before, was it Kyle or Hal?

It was Hal....pre-crisis.

 

[BrianWilly]

I've never thought that that's how the ring works. I always thought that it was alot more complex than "wanting it enough." If you wanted to make a construct, I thought that you had to visualize exactly what you wanted in the right amount of detail, and maintain that visualization. Otherwise, it would just come out a green blob. And I've never seen the ring able to synthasize actual elements.

Well obviously it's not as simple as "If I want it badly enough it'll happen." If you wanted a create a potion that will cure cancer, no amount of willpower is going to automatically make it if you don't know exactly how to cure cancer, or even what cancer actually is.

When Wonder Woman was dying from Neron's tomfoolery, Kyle went to her bedside and tried to make a machine that would cure her. But without knowing why she was dying and how precisely to stop that, he didn't know where to focus all that power.

But we see the ring synthesize certain elements all the time. For example, oxygen. How does the ring create breathable oxygen in space? How does it create fire-breathing dragons and sleeping gas and bug-spray? It's done all of those things and more, in the past. Certainly we can't assume that Guy Gardner knows the chemical properties of oxygen and bug-spray. There has to be some element of the power ring that takes care of the technicalities, or else no one would ever be able to make anything. There has to be certain properties that appear in these "green blobs" that the Lantern unconsciously generates or the ring automatically produces. In Rann-Thanagar War, Kilowog and Kyle terraformed an entire planet in under a day; no amount of green blobs is going to be able to do that without producing certain elements.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The rings wouldn't necessarily have to generate oxygen themselves to keep the Lanterns alive in space. They could extract the oxygen from the carbon dioxide the GL exhales and create a self-replenishing air supply like that. It'd run out eventually, though.

 

[BrianWilly]

In that same vein, though, it's not like every GL in the universe is taught how to extract oxygen from carbon dioxide. If that's how it works, then it has to be an unconscious process that doesn't require much focus or even much knowledge from the ring-bearer. They think of it happening, and it happens.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The rings have artificial intelligences that include protocols for keeping the wearer alive automatically. They'll create shields to protect the GL from lethal injury, feed them oxygen when their surroundings don't have any, etc. Kyle's didn't initially, but when the Corps came back it had an AI and talked to him like all the other rings, so presumably it got upgraded somehow and started working like the other GLs' rings.

 

[BrianWilly]

Right. And I think that goes along with what I said in my original post, that the ring is completely capable of doing these things. It is completely within the capacity of the ring to be the greatest weapon in the universe.

Anything that it doesn't do, therefore, is a "flaw" on the part of the wielder, not the ring. The ring is perfectly equipped to produce Kryptonite constructs, but the ring-bearer in question might not be. Kyle and Hal don't know enough about Kryptonite to be able to produce it; I mean, Kryptonite isn't exactly an easy element to produce, Lex Luthor must have been trying for years and he hasn't been able to do it.

But suppose, as a hypothesis, that there's an alien species somewhere out there that survives on Kryptonite, or something close enough to it. If one of them had a power ring, they would know more than enough to be able to produce Kryptonite constructs up and down the street. On the other hand, suppose that this supposed alien species doesn't have the substance "tin foil," or anything remotely resembling tin foil, within a bajillion light years of their planet. They wouldn't be able to use a power ring to create tin foil constructs. You might even bring them some tin foil and put it right in front of their, ah, bulbously skinny eyes, and it would still be too alien and complicated for them to produce.

Would you say then that the power ring can't produce tin foil? No, you'd say that the specific alien Green Lantern couldn't produce tin foil. I think that's the sort of logic we'd use in any circumstance regarding when a Green Lantern "couldn't" do something with his/her/its ring.

 

[The Question]

Well obviously it's not as simple as "If I want it badly enough it'll happen." If you wanted a create a potion that will cure cancer, no amount of willpower is going to automatically make it if you don't know exactly how to cure cancer, or even what cancer actually is.

When Wonder Woman was dying from Neron's tomfoolery, Kyle went to her bedside and tried to make a machine that would cure her. But without knowing why she was dying and how precisely to stop that, he didn't know where to focus all that power.

But we see the ring synthesize certain elements all the time. For example, oxygen. How does the ring create breathable oxygen in space? How does it create fire-breathing dragons and sleeping gas and bug-spray? It's done all of those things and more, in the past. Certainly we can't assume that Guy Gardner knows the chemical properties of oxygen and bug-spray. There has to be some element of the power ring that takes care of the technicalities, or else no one would ever be able to make anything. There has to be certain properties that appear in these "green blobs" that the Lantern unconsciously generates or the ring automatically produces. In Rann-Thanagar War, Kilowog and Kyle terraformed an entire planet in under a day; no amount of green blobs is going to be able to do that without producing certain elements.

Well, for the fire and bug spray:


1) It's not complicated to make fire. Fire isn't an element. You just have to heat something up enough and it'll ignite.

2) It may not have been bug spray, but simply a construct that looked like bug spray, and because it was probably cloging up the bug's internal workings, had the same effect.


You have a point about the terraforming them. But then, what exactly was on that planet to begin with? If it's got an atmosphere with alot of carbon dioxide, then all you would need to make the air breathable would be to plant alot of plants. With their rings, I'd think they could do that in a day.

 

[The Question]

Right. And I think that goes along with what I said in my original post, that the ring is completely capable of doing these things. It is completely within the capacity of the ring to be the greatest weapon in the universe.

Anything that it doesn't do, therefore, is a "flaw" on the part of the wielder, not the ring. The ring is perfectly equipped to produce Kryptonite constructs, but the ring-bearer in question might not be.

That's not necessairily true. That's just you assuming. It could be that the ring is programed to do the oxygen then, but isn't prograned for anything else. I mean, extracting an element that's already present in your body, while highly complex, is far less complex than making an element apear out of thin air. And, it's quite possible that all a GL goes is gather up an air supply from his or her homeworld large enough to sustain them until they reach their destination. I mean, the ring can store all that energy, I would assume it could store air.

But suppose, as a hypothesis, that there's an alien species somewhere out there that survives on Kryptonite, or something close enough to it. If one of them had a power ring, they would know more than enough to be able to produce Kryptonite constructs up and down the street.

Again, not necessairily. They may simply carry Kryptonite with them when they travel, or use their rings to survive on the Kryptonite present in their bodies.

On the other hand, suppose that this supposed alien species doesn't have the substance "tin foil," or anything remotely resembling tin foil, within a bajillion light years of their planet. They wouldn't be able to use a power ring to create tin foil constructs. You might even bring them some tin foil and put it right in front of their, ah, bulbously skinny eyes, and it would still be too alien and complicated for them to produce.

Would you say then that the power ring can't produce tin foil? No, you'd say that the specific alien Green Lantern couldn't produce tin foil. I think that's the sort of logic we'd use in any circumstance regarding when a Green Lantern "couldn't" do something with his/her/its ring.

However, it's also possible that the ring simply can't produce actual tin foil.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Can the rings rearrange matter? Because extracting oxygen from other molecules isn't really much more complicated than reconfiguring existing atoms into Kryptonite's atomic structure, if you think about it. It's a similar process, and with enough atoms you can make literally anything.

 

[The Question]

Yeah. But the process of extracting oxygen may not work on a subatomic level.

 

[BrianWilly]

1) It's not complicated to make fire. Fire isn't an element. You just have to heat something up enough and it'll ignite.

But the ring doesn't produce fire through ignition, it simply creates green, construct fire that behaves completely like fire does. When it looks like fire, feels like fire, and acts like fire, at what point do we stop saying, "That's not real fire"?

2) It may not have been bug spray, but simply a construct that looked like bug spray, and because it was probably cloging up the bug's internal workings, had the same effect.

What about the sleeping gas, then? Kyle was able to use construct sleeping gas on Alan Scott, one time.

You have a point about the terraforming them. But then, what exactly was on that planet to begin with? If it's got an atmosphere with alot of carbon dioxide, then all you would need to make the air breathable would be to plant alot of plants. With their rings, I'd think they could do that in a day.

The Planet in question was Thanagar, which had been sent through its own sun. I don't think it ended up with any atmosphere at all.

That's not necessairily true. That's just you assuming. It could be that the ring is programed to do the oxygen then, but isn't prograned for anything else. I mean, extracting an element that's already present in your body, while highly complex, is far less complex than making an element apear out of thin air. And, it's quite possible that all a GL goes is gather up an air supply from his or her homeworld large enough to sustain them until they reach their destination. I mean, the ring can store all that energy, I would assume it could store air.

Just so you know, you're answering my "assumption" with another assumption. As far as I'm aware, the only energy that the ring stores is the energy of the central power battery. That's the fact that we know. We don't know if it actually stores oxygen in the ring itself...that's the assumption. Therefore, going by what we know, the ring either has to make oxygen from its own energy, or synthesize it from another source somehow...which, given that space is a vaccuum with no other source, is the far less likely of the two options.

Incidentally, in Rann/Thanagar War Kyle extracts oxygen for the planet from ash.

Again, not necessairily. They may simply carry Kryptonite with them when they travel, or use their rings to survive on the Kryptonite present in their bodies.

That's not what I meant. I mean that this theoretical alien species would simply be so familiar with Kryptonite that they could just create it.

However, it's also possible that the ring simply can't produce actual tin foil.

Why not? It produces a lot of more complicated things. Again, going by the earlier model, if it looks like tin foil and acts like tin foil and feels like tin foil and, heck, tastes like tin foil...then how is it different from actual tin foil other than the fact that it's an energy construct? Of course it's not going to be silvery or permanent (even though Ganthet said that you could produce permanent constructs, if you worked at it enough...and the original Hal Jordan memorial was actually a construct made by Kyle), but it's going to have all the properties of tin foil.

For the purposes of this conversation, I had assumed that we were talking about constructs anyway. The question isn't "Can the ring produce an actual Kryptonite?" (even though I think that it can, given the right sources), the question is "Can the ring produce a construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite?"

Yeah. But the process of extracting oxygen may not work on a subatomic level.

No, we know that the ring can manipulate matter at the subatomic level. The power ring can split atoms. I'm not science guy, but I imagine that's relatively close to what we're talking about. And again, the ring has been shown to do a lot more than just make energy constructs, including teleportation and mindwipes. Honestly, "big green blobs" is and always has been merely the tip of the iceberg.

 

[The Question]

But the ring doesn't produce fire through ignition, it simply creates green, construct fire that behaves completely like fire does. When it looks like fire, feels like fire, and acts like fire, at what point do we stop saying, "That's not real fire"?

If it's green, then it doesn't look like fire. It's construct fire. Most of a GL's more simple constructs behaive like the object they're in the shape of. But they're not made of the same stuff as that object.

What about the sleeping gas, then? Kyle was able to use construct sleeping gas on Alan Scott, one time.

Didn't know about that.

The Planet in question was Thanagar, which had been sent through its own sun. I don't think it ended up with any atmosphere at all.

Hmm. Fair point.

Just so you know, you're answering my "assumption" with another assumption. As far as I'm aware, the only energy that the ring stores is the energy of the central power battery. That's the fact that we know. We don't know if it actually stores oxygen in the ring itself...that's the assumption. Therefore, going by what we know, the ring either has to make oxygen from its own energy, or synthesize it from another source somehow...which, given that space is a vaccuum with no other source, is the far less likely of the two options.

Or, they coukd store ogyxen with then when they're in space. We don't know it does, but that's no reason to rule out the possibility.

Incidentally, in Rann/Thanagar War Kyle extracts oxygen for the planet from ash.

Good point. But, oxygen molocules would be present in the ash. While that's still a very complicated process, it's not the same as creating Oxygen out of nothing.

That's not what I meant. I mean that this theoretical alien species would simply be so familiar with Kryptonite that they could just create it.

And I'm saying I don't think that the rings would be capable of that.

Why not? It produces a lot of more complicated things. Again, going by the earlier model, if it looks like tin foil and acts like tin foil and feels like tin foil and, heck, tastes like tin foil...then how is it different from actual tin foil other than the fact that it's an energy construct? Of course it's not going to be silvery or permanent (even though Ganthet said that you could produce permanent constructs, if you worked at it enough...and the original Hal Jordan memorial was actually a construct made by Kyle), but it's going to have all the properties of tin foil.

But it isn't tin foil. It's an energy construct that behaives like tin foil. And how do you know that the constructs taste anything like the objects they're supposed to be? I don't think it's ever been brought up.

For the purposes of this conversation, I had assumed that we were talking about constructs anyway. The question isn't "Can the ring produce an actual Kryptonite?" (even though I think that it can, given the right sources), the question is "Can the ring produce a construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite?"

I doubt it. Since it's not made of the same material, it would just be a rock.

No, we know that the ring can manipulate matter at the subatomic level. The power ring can split atoms. I'm not science guy, but I imagine that's relatively close to what we're talking about.

No, it's not. Splitting an atome and rearanging the properties of an atom are two very different things. To split an atom, you need to fire a sub atomic particle beam that bombarts the atom, causing it to split. That's not the same as changing oxygen into Kryptonite.

And again, the ring has been shown to do a lot more than just make energy constructs, including teleportation and mindwipes. Honestly, "big green blobs" is and always has been merely the tip of the iceberg.

Are the windipes in continuity? Because, the only in continuity instance I can recall is when Green Lantern manipulated a knowlege enhancing device to wipe people's minds.

 

[BrianWilly]

Or, they coukd store ogyxen with then when they're in space. We don't know it does, but that's no reason to rule out the possibility.

By your own words, that's just you assuming things. You can't counter a negative with another negative and call it evidence. By that same exact logic, I could claim that we don't know that it doesn't store oxygen, so there's no reason to rule that out. Ultimately it shows nothing one way or the other.

Good point. But, oxygen molocules would be present in the ash. While that's still a very complicated process, it's not the same as creating Oxygen out of nothing.

It would be construct oxygen, not oxygen out of nothing. That was my whole point from the beginning, that it would be constructed oxygen which behaves exactly like oxygen does, which means that you could breathe it.

And I'm saying I don't think that the rings would be capable of that.

Why don't you? What evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"? I've given numerous examples of the ring producing effects beyond simply being big green solid blobs, so long as the Lantern in question knew enough about what they were doing.

But it isn't tin foil. It's an energy construct that behaives like tin foil. And how do you know that the constructs taste anything like the objects they're supposed to be? I don't think it's ever been brought up.

Of course it's not actually tin foil. But if it behaves exactly like tin foil does, what's the practical difference? You can still use it to wrap up your food.

Similarly, if you create an energy construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite, then what's the practical difference? Of course it's not actually Kryptonite, but if it behaves exactly like Kryptonite does then it's still going to make Superman puke all over the floor nonetheless.

And yes, the constructs do taste like the objects they're supposed to be. Cary Wren, Kyle's descendant in the future, made a construct apple that tasted like an apple. And various Lanterns have made constructs which were so detailed that they included the smell of the object.

No, it's not. Splitting an atome and rearanging the properties of an atom are two very different things. To split an atom, you need to fire a sub atomic particle beam that bombarts the atom, causing it to split. That's not the same as changing oxygen into Kryptonite.

But the point remains that the rings can manipulate matter at the subatomic level.

Are the windipes in continuity? Because, the only in continuity instance I can recall is when Green Lantern manipulated a knowlege enhancing device to wipe people's minds.

It is, as far as I know...
"Before he turned Major Disaster over to the police, Green Lantern's power ring scanned Disaster's mind to learn the frequencies which would cure those struck by Major Disaster's disaster energies. Green Lantern then erased the knowledge of the Flash's identity from Disaster's mind but in a bit of ironic revenge, he allowed Booker to remember the Hal Jordan identity."
http://www.glcorps.org/maj_disa.html

 

[The Question]

By your own words, that's just you assuming things. You can't counter a negative with another negative and call it evidence. By that same exact logic, I could claim that we don't know that it doesn't store oxygen, so there's no reason to rule that out. Ultimately it shows nothing one way or the other.

It would be construct oxygen, not oxygen out of nothing. That was my whole point from the beginning, that it would be constructed oxygen which behaves exactly like oxygen does, which means that you could breathe it.

That doesn't work. A construct rope working like a real rope is much different from a construct air molocule acting like an air molocule. It wouldn't have any of the same chemical properties, since it's not actually air.

Why don't you? What evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"? I've given numerous examples of the ring producing effects beyond simply being big green solid blobs, so long as the Lantern in question knew enough about what they were doing.

The only thing that really supports what you're saying is the knock out gas.

Of course it's not actually tin foil. But if it behaves exactly like tin foil does, what's the practical difference? You can still use it to wrap up your food.

But it's not actually tin foilk. It has none of the chemical properties as tin foil. It may feel like tin foil and behave like tin foil, but it isn't tin foil.

Similarly, if you create an energy construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite, then what's the practical difference? Of course it's not actually Kryptonite, but if it behaves exactly like Kryptonite does then it's still going to make Superman puke all over the floor nonetheless.

But that's different. A construct can simulate the functions of tin foil. The fact that Kryptonite is radioactive comes from it's chemical composition. Something that a construct would not be able to duplicate because it's not actually Kryptonite.

And yes, the constructs do taste like the objects they're supposed to be. Cary Wren, Kyle's descendant in the future, made a construct apple that tasted like an apple. And various Lanterns have made constructs which were so detailed that they included the smell of the object.

Okay. I didn't know that. The only instance I ever read of someone eating a construct was in the Busiek written Crime Syndicate/Justice League cross over, in which power ring ate construct popcorn and commented that it was completely flavorless.

But the point remains that the rings can manipulate matter at the subatomic level.

But it's not the same thing. Creation is a much more complicated process than distruction. Just because someone can destroy something at a certain level doesn't mean that they can create something at the same level.

It is, as far as I know...
"Before he turned Major Disaster over to the police, Green Lantern's power ring scanned Disaster's mind to learn the frequencies which would cure those struck by Major Disaster's disaster energies. Green Lantern then erased the knowledge of the Flash's identity from Disaster's mind but in a bit of ironic revenge, he allowed Booker to remember the Hal Jordan identity."
http://www.glcorps.org/maj_disa.html

Alright. I was fairly certain that alot of the ring's feats were wiped away post crisis, and the only post crisis thing I've seen of the ring mindwiping someone involved it manipukating a device that was already designed to alter mental functions.

 

[Lackey]

That doesn't work. A construct rope working like a real rope is much different from a construct air molocule acting like an air molocule. It wouldn't have any of the same chemical properties, since it's not actually air.

If the GL has enough knowledge of an oxygen molecule and it's chemical properties and structure, I don't see why not.

But it's not the same thing. Creation is a much more complicated process than distruction. Just because someone can destroy something at a certain level doesn't mean that they can create something at the same level.

If the ring can work at a subatomic level, then it is capable of transmutation of matter. It wouldn't need to create something out of thin air (out of nothing) it could transmute something into the desired form of matter.

 

[BrianWilly]

The only thing that really supports what you're saying is the knock out gas.

One concrete example isn't enough? How many do you need, exactly?

What about terraforming Thanagar?

But that's different. A construct can simulate the functions of tin foil. The fact that Kryptonite is radioactive comes from it's chemical composition. Something that a construct would not be able to duplicate because it's not actually Kryptonite.

Can I ask, why do you keep assuming that the ring can't duplicate chemical compositions? Has there been any evidence for this from the comics? 'Cause as far as I'm aware, anytime anyone describes the ring's capabilities in canon it's always "The ring is the most powerful weapon in the universe, it can do anything," and never "The ring is the most powerful weapon in the universe, it can do anything...except for this and this and this."

Again, what evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"?

 

[BrianWilly]

Okay.

From Justice League Chronology

Thinking him unstable, the JLA nearly kills Superman by synthesizing kryptonite with Green Lantern's ring.
-Superman: Man of Tomorrow #13 (Spr.99)

So there you go. In-canon evidence that the ring not only can synthesize Kryptonite, but that it has synthesized Kryptonite.

 

[The Question]

Alright. Fine. But, I must say that becaus ethe ring can split an atom does not mean it can transmute matter. They're two related yet still very different processes, transmuting matter being vastly more complex.

 

[Lackey]

Alright. Fine. But, I must say that becaus ethe ring can split an atom does not mean it can transmute matter. They're two related yet still very different processes, transmuting matter being vastly more complex.

it's adding more protons or taking away protons to/from the nucleus... that's all.

 

[The Question]

But it's different and much more complicated in aplication. The argeument is like saying "I can shoot someone in the head, so obviously I can preform brain surgury." Rearanging matter on a sub atomic level requires control and subtle precision. Otherwise, you won't get anything even remotely resembling what you want. Splitting an atom is firing a particle bean into an atom and watching it blow. Points and shoot. The only similarity between the two is the word "atom."

 

[Lackey]

Your analogy is completely off base

For one, you're making atom splitting sound much more simplistic than it actually is... it would require a great deal of control and precision also.

Secondly, when scientist discovered how to create nuclear fission and started experimenting with radioactive isotopes in the 1950's, they also discovered ways to transmute elements. The two processes are related.

 

[The Question]

Your analogy is completely off base

For one, you're making atom splitting sound much more simplistic than it actually is... it would require a great deal of control and precision also.

I'm not saying it is simplistic. I'm saying that altering matter is much more difficult.

Secondly, when scientist discovered how to create nuclear fission and started experimenting with radioactive isotopes in the 1950's, they also discovered ways to transmute elements. The two processes are related.

But they're not the same. Just because he could split an atom, does not mean he can transmute matter. Now, given that it's already been shown that he can, the point is moot. But I'm saying, that's not an arguement for saying he can transmute matter.

 

[Lackey]

I'm not saying it is simplistic. I'm saying that altering matter is much more difficult.

not really... in fact, altering matter is an integral part of radioactive decay and nuclear fission. In fact, I would say the opposite it true.

But they're not the same. Just because he could split an atom, does not mean he can transmute matter. Now, given that it's already been shown that he can, the point is moot. But I'm saying, that's not an arguement for saying he can transmute matter.

Given the history of "splitting an atom" in the real world... of course it is.