Gwen Stacy...to kill or not to kill.

[SpideyTheBest]

.....................

 

[DACrowe]

I read SM: Blue and own a large number of back issues with Gwen in them...and in all of them MJ came off better (despite Loeb's clear love for Gwen-y and hatred for Ms. Watson).

I just finished the second season. This show is really good and far superior to not only any other SM cartoon, but to the comics of the last 15 years as well as the movies. It is a home run on nailing the character.

With that said, I still dislike Gwen in this show.

SPOILERS

The show made even Liz Allen much more interesting and likable. But Gwen not letting Peter talk to her for half of the season and then agreeing to break up with Harry and getting Peter to do it with Liz and then staying with him. Bah! She is a weak, annoying and timid character. A little "too pure." She is outshone by MJ, Liz and even Black Cat.

Personally, I hope the show goes four seasons and in season 3 they kill off Capt. Stacy early and then at the end Norman returns and kills off Gwen. So in season 4 Peter can be dark and angry and starting to flirt with unethical posturing with the Black Cat and MJ can bring him down from the ledge so to speak when she reveals she knows he was Spidey all along (as I honestly think it is pretty clear she does, as does Capt. Stacy and the Conners are starting to suspect too).

My 2 cents.

 

[nygma619]

The show made even Liz Allen much more interesting and likable. But Gwen not letting Peter talk to her for half of the season

Not letting Pete talk to her for half the season? Peter had multiple chances to talk to her. Pete just never worked up the nerve, Gwen is not the only one at fault in this circumstance.

and then agreeing to break up with Harry and getting Peter to do it with Liz and then staying with him. Bah!

Well Pete agreed to do the same thing (Gwen didn't talk him in to doing that, it was a mutual agreement) I don't see you bad mouthing him. And at least she had enough class not to kiss Peter behind Harry's back.

As far as her not breaking up with Harry, that's because she felt Harry was in an emotional wreck and didn't want to be the reason he'd go back on the green. She was blackmailed into a tough situation that put her between a rock and a hard place. Most of us feel she made the right decision.

She is a weak, annoying and timid character. A little "too pure."

There's been times where she's broke away from that "pure" state you've labeled her in, she's been seen flirting with Peter a few times even though they were both in relationships. She took the initiative to talk to Harry about what was happening with him when he blacked out. She was able to pilot the escape pod in Shear Strength, and she didn't panic or lose her cool. And she has also been seen defending her best friend when he just stood there in the school yard and took Flash's water balloon barrage.

I'm sure there are other examples that I missed, but I think that I proved that your view on this version of Gwen is pretty narrow minded, or at least thats the way its coming off.

She is outshone by MJ, Liz and even Black Cat.

In to the "bad" girls I take it?

Personally, I hope the show goes four seasons and in season 3 they kill off Capt. Stacy early and then at the end Norman returns and kills off Gwen. So in season 4 Peter can be dark and angry and starting to flirt with unethical posturing with the Black Cat and MJ can bring him down from the ledge so to speak when she reveals she knows he was Spidey all along (as I honestly think it is pretty clear she does, as does Capt. Stacy and the Conners are starting to suspect too).

Captain Stacy I could see happening in the series, Gwen I wouldn't bet on her dying IMO during the shows run.
For one, if they were to ever do that, it needs to be built up right and them not just rushing to/through it (like Spidey's victory over Tombstone. ) Otherwise it would lack impact.

Also, who says this continuity needs to follow what happened to the characters in the comics?

 

[DACrowe]

Not letting Pete talk to her for half the season? Peter had multiple chances to talk to her. Pete just never worked up the nerve, Gwen is not the only one at fault in this circumstance.



Well Pete agreed to do the same thing (Gwen didn't talk him in to doing that, it was a mutual agreement) I don't see you bad mouthing him. And at least she had enough class not to kiss Peter behind Harry's back.

As far as her not breaking up with Harry, that's because she felt Harry was in an emotional wreck and didn't want to be the reason he'd go back on the green. She was blackmailed into a tough situation that put her between a rock and a hard place. Most of us feel she made the right decision.



There's been times where she's broke away from that "pure" state you've labeled her in, she's been seen flirting with Peter a few times even though they were both in relationships. She took the initiative to talk to Harry about what was happening with him when he blacked out. She was able to pilot the escape pod in Shear Strength, and she didn't panic or lose her cool. And she has also been seen defending her best friend when he just stood there in the school yard and took Flash's water balloon barrage.

I'm sure there are other examples that I missed, but I think that I proved that your view on this version of Gwen is pretty narrow minded, or at least thats the way its coming off.



In to the "bad" girls I take it?



Captain Stacy I could see happening in the series, Gwen I wouldn't bet on her dying IMO during the shows run.
For one, if they were to ever do that, it needs to be built up right and them not just rushing to/through it (like Spidey's victory over Tombstone. ) Otherwise it would lack impact.

Also, who says this continuity needs to follow what happened to the characters in the comics?

Eh, taking it personal much? I just think Gwen is a bland character. She was bland in the comics, she was bland in the movies and she is bland on the show. Like Eddie Brock, she is a character they'll try a multitude of ways, but there will always be "something missing."

As for your points, I understand they give Gwen a little bit of pro-active characterization in the show, but she is as a whole a reactionary character. I understand that it is also Pete's fault (I do not bad mouth him as much as he is a fictional character and overall is written well). However, this "will they or won't they," due only to awkward personalities and not extenuating circumstances is an old crutch for dramatic tension and it bores me. Peter is a more interesting character around women who are not the female equivalent of him, such as MJ, Liz and BC. Of those I would say only BC is a "bad girl," but they are all active characters who play well off of Pete for the writers and the viewers. Peter is always more interesting when he is on screen with MJ or Liz in the show than when he is on screen with Gwen and I don't see how Liz is a "bad girl," just because she is the popular girl archetype.

And yes the first half of the season was modeled on Pete would try to say something to her, she would see Liz likes Peter and then walk away sad and self-loathing. Peter would try to say something for her and then she would say something to get out of the situation or they were interrupted by person-X and it would move on. That sort of storytelling is boring to me. At least Pete's relationship with Liz had them actually talking without awkward stutters or silence.

Oh well, we know the direction the show is moving in. Considering they want to work in Hobgoblin in season 3, I agree killing off Gwen next season will be too soon. Perhaps season 4 though, with Norman's triumphant return. I think they may be able to get around it, if other kids shows have killed off major characters before.

I just would like them to get to the point where MJ reveals she knows Peter is Spidey and they can start having a relationship and I know as long as Gwen is alive we'll have to wait on that. As Stan Lee said himself, they had to move Gwen out of the way for more interesting characters.

P.S. It follows the comic on the major points. Gwen is a character defined by her departure from the story (a very violent death, partially implemented by Peter, that will rock him to his core). Like Eddie Brock having to become Venom, Norman Osborn being the real first Green Goblin, Captain Stacy figuring out Peter is Spidey, Doc Ock being the Master Planner, Dr. Conners becoming the Lizard, etc. it has to happen that way. It is a far bigger aspect than what Shocker's name is before he became the two-dimensional villain.

 

[nygma619]

Eh, taking it personal much? I just think Gwen is a bland character. She was bland in the comics, she was bland in the movies and she is bland on the show. Like Eddie Brock, she is a character they'll try a multitude of ways, but there will always be "something missing."

I disagree with your take on Gwen being bland in all mediums:
-616 I agree with.
-The Ultimate version was okay, but was a little too much on the risque side for my liking.
-The movie version was decent for the time given to her.
IMO this is probably the most interesting version of Gwen to date.

As for your points, I understand they give Gwen a little bit of pro-active characterization in the show, but she is as a whole a reactionary character. I understand that it is also Pete's fault (I do not bad mouth him as much as he is a fictional character and overall is written well).

By that same token, MJ on this show is below her since she just shys away from most people who try to do something more with her. About all she did this season was have a fling with Mark Allen, what else did she do?
I don't buy that whole "she's a reactionary character" stuff that your trying to get across, writing Gwen like the other girls would be redundant.

However, this "will they or won't they," due only to awkward personalities and not extenuating circumstances is an old crutch for dramatic tension and it bores me.

Their teenagers, it's understandable that their going to go through those kinds awkward phases in their life.

Peter is a more interesting character around women who are not the female equivalent of him

That's more of a personal opinion than an actual fact. By your same stance Lois Lane is boring because she has the same job as Clark Kent does.

such as MJ, Liz and BC. Of those I would say only BC is a "bad girl," but they are all active characters who play well off of Pete for the writers and the viewers. Peter is always more interesting when he is on screen with MJ or Liz in the show than when he is on screen with Gwen and I don't see how Liz is a "bad girl," just because she is the popular girl archetype.

Explain why you think Pete interacting with them makes him more interesting than with Gwen, I'd like a better arguement to back that opinion up. Cause all it sounds like your doing is stating an opinion without something to back it up.

And personally I find the women on this show that Peter is involved with to all be interesting because they all interact with Peter "differently" make note of that word.

That sort of storytelling is boring to me. At least Pete's relationship with Liz had them actually talking without awkward stutters or silence.

Why is that sort of relationship boring to you? Cause its based on how alot of teenagers interact in that situation when they've known eachother for a long time.

For me if I can understand the context in how the characters interact, and I actually care about them; I don't have any problems with stuff like that.

I just would like them to get to the point where MJ reveals she knows Peter is Spidey and they can start having a relationship and I know as long as Gwen is alive we'll have to wait on that.

Who says that MJ does know his secret? And who says Gwen will die?

As Stan Lee said himself, they had to move Gwen out of the way for more interesting characters.

He hasn't always maintained that viewpoint.

P.S. It follows the comic on the major points. Gwen is a character defined by her departure from the story (a very violent death, partially implemented by Peter, that will rock him to his core).

Personally I find that opinion to be borderline hyperbole (okay 616, yeah but that's because she was that bland).

Like Eddie Brock having to become Venom, Norman Osborn being the real first Green Goblin, Captain Stacy figuring out Peter is Spidey, Doc Ock being the Master Planner, Dr. Conners becoming the Lizard, etc. it has to happen that way.

Who says it that all those points HAVE TO happen that way? I don't remember Norman Osborn being dead to the world and taking up a different alias and getting out of the country? Do you?

People thinking Gwen Stacy has to die sort of reminds me of something Bruce Timm said on the Justice League Season 2 audio commentary on the episode Starcrossed, Part 3, discussing the breaking the Green Lantern ring controversey:
Bruce Timm: "People came up to me saying, HUH YOU CAN'T DO THAT. I'm like why not? The Green Lantern Ring is unbreakable. Says who? It's in DC Comics Lore. Well I don't care." (paraphrased)

Maybe not as big of a deal as Gwen Stacy dying. But I think you all get what I'm saying. There's nothing in the Geneva convention saying Gwen Stacy HAS to die.

Does the wheel always have to be reinvented?

 

[DACrowe]

Your argument seems to be rooted into liking Gwen. That's fine. But she is a bore. Not because she has the same interests as Pete. As you pointed out Lois Lane and Clark Kent are both journalists. But in terms of personality and how they interact with each other, they are nothing alike. You cannot honestly say they are similar. Their chemistry as characters and in writing comes from their different personalities bouncing off each other, spunk meets stiff (no pun intended) if you know what I mean. Gwen is bland, so they tried to make the good girl the female counterpart to Peter. She is still dull, when Peter is having a juvenile, but entertaining relationship with the far more interesting Liz Allen. MJ is an enigma that Peter will have to learn how to solve as he matures and grows up. That's the appeal of the character. Gwen is milktoast. She is so sweet, so sad, so awkward, so longing for Peter and sooooo good. Yawn. I prefer a little more dramatic tension in the writing. Drama comes from conflict, so the only way to create conflict for this relationship is to force them to never get together, whether because it is never the right time to talk or Harry blackmails her nobler sensibilities to stay with him. Because as soon as Peter has her, the plot thread loses its interest and then it will be about time for good ol' Gobby to come a knockin'.

And I'm unconvinced with your claims about why she should live. This writer is being unusually faithful to the story in the comics. Flash is injured and ends up with Shashan and Peter must try to date Betty first, etc. Even little things like getting DeWolff in there shows a huge amount of loyalty to the source material. The most important aspect of Gwen is how she dies. It is what most people (who know anything about the character) think of when they hear her name...lying dead by or on a bridge in Spidey's arms. And Wiseman says he will stay faithful to the essence of these characters and why they are important to the mythos. That is why Norman Osborn was always going to be the Green Goblin despite a one season-long red herring and that Doc Ock was always going to be the Master Planner, despite claiming he had reformed and abhors violence.

And yes, Norman (post-Revelations) faked his death and went to Europe for years, while Harry's hatred for Spidey festered. Sure it happened later, but like Venom, Gwen and soon Hobgoblin being there, the writers are moving the story elements up so they can tackle them. If you introduce Gwen, she is going to die. It is why TAS and SM1 shied away from it. Luckily, this show has not.

 

[nygma619]

Your argument seems to be rooted into liking Gwen. That's fine. But she is a bore.

And you finding her bland seems to be because you've hated the character for years.

But in terms of personality and how they interact with each other, they are nothing alike.

And you came to that conclusion how? They're more alike than Peter and Liz are, or Peter and MJ. Notice both of them changing their images that they no longer look like nerds nearly at the same time? That IMO is an interesting parallel that shows both of them evolving. I've stated many times this is a version of Gwen that is constantly evolving into a more confident person. And watching that evolution is more interesting than just writing the end result of that evolution as so.

She is still dull, when Peter is having a juvenile, but entertaining relationship with the far more interesting Liz Allen.

And what makes you think that the relationship is entertaining in your opinion? The relationship as nice as it was, is just merely a high school relationship that has no hope beyond that.

And what makes you think Liz Allen is more interesting? Not that I don't think she's interesting in her own right, but Peter has bigger ties to Gwen that go back farther than Peter does with Liz.

Gwen is milktoast. She is so sweet, so sad, so awkward, so longing for Peter and sooooo good. Yawn.

I'll admit she was a little bit mopey at the beginning of the season for my liking. But that stoped after Growing Pains, IMO. Also Gwen has been known to have a little bit of a temper at certain people at times (see all the times with "the look", getting mad at Peter twice in Reinforcements.
If she just remained sweet and sad and never had moments like these I might agree with you. But I like to see the forest beyond the trees.
As far as her being awkward, Peter showed the same awkwardness Gwen did, why don't you write him a ticket while your at it.
As I also mentioned before Gwen had flirted with Peter a few times during the season while in a relationship.

I prefer a little more dramatic tension in the writing. Drama comes from conflict, so the only way to create conflict for this relationship is to force them to never get together, whether because it is never the right time to talk or Harry blackmails her nobler sensibilities to stay with him.

So you say you want dramatic tension in your shows but when they do give you this you still whine about it? Hypocrite much?
Sounds like your just whining for the sake of whining.

Because as soon as Peter has her, the plot thread loses its interest and then it will be about time for good ol' Gobby to come a knockin'.

Who says that even if they get together the plot thread loses interest? Just because people say the chase is more interesting than the car ride? News Flash, the people who whine about that complaint, are the ones who can't or have not found a way to make it interesting.

To quote Bruce Wayne from Batman Beyond: "There's always another way."

This writer is being unusually faithful to the story in the comics. Flash is injured and ends up with Shashan and Peter must try to date Betty first, etc. Even little things like getting DeWolff in there shows a huge amount of loyalty to the source material.

Greg Weisman is being loyal to a degree, but he has never stated that everyone will end up the way they did in the comics. He says he wants to make this THE Spider-Man cartoon of our time, and that it will have something for everyone. And if you ever read his interview from toonzone (that's on a page or 2 before this on here) you'd realize he doesn't think Gwen Stacy as a character is solely defined by her death.

And I'm glad he's not following things slavishly, and I don't believe he will either, regardless of what the sheep that believe so otherwise.

The most important aspect of Gwen is how she dies.

For 616 Gwen, yes. For every version, NO. And the only people that believe that hyperbole are the die hard fans that are so enwrenched into what happened IN THE COMICS; that they never stop to realize that at the end of the day, this (and other mediums) is a different take on the character. History doesn't need to be repeated, if people are looking for that, they can read the comic book stories themselves.

And Wiseman says he will stay faithful to the essence of these characters and why they are important to the mythos.

Weisman has stated he plans to stay true to the spirit of Spider-Man, meaning staying true to what made spider-man so popular to begin with. The spirit of Spider-Man & the essence of different characters are two different things.

That is why Norman Osborn was always going to be the Green Goblin despite a one season-long red herring and that Doc Ock was always going to be the Master Planner, despite claiming he had reformed and abhors violence.

Yeah some of that is Weisman reimagining certain elements or looking at what worked in other mediums, and some of it is him thinking on what would make certain characters more interesting (like Kraven's mutated form, which I had no problems with like most people here did).

And yes, Norman (post-Revelations) faked his death and went to Europe for years, while Harry's hatred for Spidey festered. Sure it happened later, but like Venom, Gwen and soon Hobgoblin being there, the writers are moving the story elements up so they can tackle them.

Sure that happened THERE, but this version has changed his alias, he can't just go back to being Norman Osborn again.

If you introduce Gwen, she is going to die. It is why TAS and SM1 shied away from it. Luckily, this show has not.

There's those dumb words again, GOING TO. Is the universe going to implode if she doesn't? If she lives in the series sure there might be some fan boys who whine about it (but lets not kid ourselves, there's ALWAYS whining fan boys who will always complain about what they think are inaccuracies.

They shied away from ever mentioning her again until, Bendis created her Ultimate version.
After that fans, and creators alike cooled off and didn't have a problem with using her again.



For what it's worth I find Gwen, Peter's primary love interest in this series is a far better love interest, than Mary Jane in the 90's toon(Peter's primary love interest in that series) ever was.

 

[DACrowe]

Calling me a hypocrite? Okay.

I never said I hate the character, but I gladly admit I never cared for her. And it is plain to see you are a wee bit obsessed with the character and that is why you feverishly support her. I said Liz Allen was more interesting, because she was. She had a more vibrant personality and kept Peter on his toes, as he was never quite sure how to handle being around her and she was fun for Pete. With Gwen he is always so serious and he pines for her, but they are just dull together. You're right, that is my opinion, but it is not changing because this show only added to the original problem the character always had...she is TOO perfect for Peter. He needs someone else that compliments his personality, not suppliments it. Gwen is not it in the show as she is just a female version of Peter. I get that parallels and she is, IMO, a bore. That is why Stan Lee wanted her out of the original series. And I was fair to this interpretation as I actually liked this Eddie Brock much more than 616's or Ultimate (though his motive for going over the edge is still dubious) and while I liked Sam Raimi's dopplenganger approach, this Eddie is obviously much better developed. Liz, I also never really liked in the comics, is cool in the show.

Also, your infatuation with the character makes you blind to see her inevitable demise that is coming, just like those who really believed Harry was the original GG as well.

 

[Dragon]

Eh, taking it personal much? I just think Gwen is a bland character. She was bland in the comics, she was bland in the movies and she is bland on the show. Like Eddie Brock, she is a character they'll try a multitude of ways, but there will always be "something missing."

Well,, if every approach to the character will have "something missing" then the problem clearly isn't with the character.

Peter is a more interesting character around women who are not the female equivalent of him, such as MJ, Liz and BC

So you mean the scenes when he sits and doesn't talk to Liz and MJ are more interesting than the scenes when he sits and doesn't talk to Gwen?

I just would like them to get to the point where MJ reveals she knows Peter is Spidey and they can start having a relationship and I know as long as Gwen is alive we'll have to wait on that. As Stan Lee said himself, they had to move Gwen out of the way for more interesting characters.

MJ? The character they bounced from the comics every few years beacase she was boring to write, until they had Peter make a deal with the devil to finally be rid of her? That MJ? And Stan Lee didn't say any such thing. He liked Gwen, as she was based on his own wife.

P.S. It follows the comic on the major points. Gwen is a character defined by her departure from the story (a very violent death, partially implemented by Peter, that will rock him to his core).

That's not even remotely true. She's defined as being Peter's first, and possibly truest love. There is certainly more than enough material to justify this. MJ is seen as choice 2. The very fact that Gwen was only in the book for 8 years- vs. MJ's 42 years, yet Gwen's spectre is constantly revisted, reinforces this. If MJ were in and of herself interesting, they'd never need to mention Gwen again.

But your almost need to see her die does suggest some issues you might want to look into..t:

 

[nygma619]

Calling me a hypocrite? Okay.

Uh yeah because you whined for one thing and when you got it, you were still whining.

I never said I hate the character, but I gladly admit I never cared for her. And it is plain to see you are a wee bit obsessed with the character and that is why you feverishly support her.

I'm not obsessed with the character I just find your opinions on Gwen on this show to be ill supported. If you actually backed up your opinions with details, I could be more lenient.
I guess the thing that annoys me the most is people talking about how she has to die, JUST BECAUSE it happened in the comics. I've always found that to be a BS excuse.

She had a more vibrant personality and kept Peter on his toes, as he was never quite sure how to handle being around her

When did she keep Peter on his toes all the time? I don't remember Peter constantly worrying about her 24/7. And he had more of an idea on how to act around Liz than Gwen.

With Gwen he is always so serious and he pines for her

That's because they're both just getting beyond that stage in their feelings for each other. You actually think they're going to act that way around each other forever?

He needs someone else that compliments his personality, not suppliments it.

Says who, and by that same token I'm guessing you thought Green Lantern and Hawkgirl were terrible together in Justice League.

Gwen is not it in the show as she is just a female version of Peter.

Okay that's where I call a flag on your opinion. There is no way this version of Gwen is a 100% female Peter Parker from a personality point of view. On the surface it might look like that, but if you scratch the surface you'll find that's not true. For one thing, Gwen doesn't go into big head mode like Peter occasionally does. Gwen is sometimes there to be Peter's psychological support (see Natural Selection). And is more level headed than Peter usually is. In that sense, Gwen compliments Peter very well. Also Gwen doesn't live a double life that her friends don't know about. And she also gets frustrated with her friends sometimes (the look anyone). Something that Peter usually doesn't do, symbiote aside.

As for other problems you might have, who says those will be there forever?

That is why Stan Lee wanted her out of the original series.

WRONG! It was Gerry Conway (the man who wrote the night Gwen Stacy died) and John Romita Sr. who felt killing her off was the right thing to do. Stan himself was actually very hesitant and unsupportive of killing her off at the time. Over time though Stan changed his tune.

And I was fair to this interpretation as I actually liked this Eddie Brock much more than 616's or Ultimate (though his motive for going over the edge is still dubious) and while I liked Sam Raimi's dopplenganger approach, this Eddie is obviously much better developed.

Now this is something I can see where your coming from, though I feel they have yet to strike an emotional chord in terms of the Peter/Eddie dynamic, and that part of this version of Venom has disappointed me.

Liz, I also never really liked in the comics, is cool in the show.

I liked this version of Liz to, but I realize that whatever she and Pete had wasn't going to last forever. I realized she was a roadblock, but she was fun for a roadblock.

Also, your infatuation with the character makes you blind to see her inevitable demise that is coming

And your assumption that they're supposedly following the characters arcs from the comics beat for beat makes you blind. And if they don't do the deed, don't think I didn't tell you so.

just like those who really believed Harry was the original GG as well.

PLEASE I never bought Harry as the green goblin for one minute.

 

[Milu]

What!? Stan Lee never wanted to kill off Gwen. In fact, he wanted Gwen to be Pete's true love.

 

[nygma619]

Hey Joker, not trying to start anything again. But something just dawned on me. The feistiness that you refered to with Gwen in 616. I remember reading a few of those comics, where she started out as more of a fireball. Those comics were from when Steve Ditko was still on the books if I remember. THAT IMO was when 616 Gwen was at her most interesting from a personality standpoint. Now I wonder what could've been if Steve Ditko had stayed on the books, then maybe Gwen wouldn't had mellowed down. But hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

When MJ was introduced it felt like Stan Lee was writing Gwen to always try to outdo MJ, at being MJ. Simply because Mary Jane stole all the scenes she was in.

But by the time Captain Stacy her father was introduced, they started painting her personality in this daddy's little girl demeanor; and maybe that was the turning point for her character.

Maybe thats just the way I remember it.

 

[Dragon]

Hey Joker, not trying to start anything again. But something just dawned on me. The feistiness that you refered to with Gwen in 616. I remember reading a few of those comics, where she started out as more of a fireball. Those comics were from when Steve Ditko was still on the books if I remember. THAT IMO was when 616 Gwen was at her most interesting from a personality standpoint. Now I wonder what could've been if Steve Ditko had stayed on the books, then maybe Gwen wouldn't had mellowed down. But hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

When MJ was introduced it felt like Stan Lee was writing Gwen to always try to outdo MJ, at being MJ. Simply because Mary Jane stole all the scenes she was in.

But by the time Captain Stacy her father was introduced, they started painting her personality in this daddy's little girl demeanor; and maybe that was the turning point for her character.

Maybe thats just the way I remember it.

Gwen had lots of moments of toughness post-Ditko.

Slugging a guy for calling Peter a coward.

When her dad was under investigation for corruption (After being brainwashed by Kingpin) and her dad wanted to flee, Gwen didn't want to run, but stay and fight.

Being invovled in activism.

When kidnapped by Kraven she was cool under pressure.

She wanted to stick with Peter during crises like those during the Vietnam and the Disruptor storylines.

In fact, with Ditko, she was merely bratty and egotistical. Post-Steve, she came off as brave and strong-willed.

MJ by contrast, folded when threatened by the Vulture after witnessing a killing. And she didn't handle the reveal of Spidey's ID too well either.

As for MJ doing any scene-stealing- it was only because she had no dramatic weight. She'd appear in scenes and only make jokes, then disappear. Once she had to carry the drama of the series she suffered from the same problems Gwen did, which is that the wirters didn't know what to do with her other than make her, And Marvel kept wantig to get rid of her. It's the Superhero-girlfriend Syndrome.

The sad thing is that Gwen had much more potential than MJ for good stories.

 

[MaxG]

Gwen shouldn't die, not yet anyway

 

[SpaceWay2009]

Off-topic: Why did John Romita replace Steve Ditko?

 

[Dragon]

Steve Ditko and Stan Lee had a disagreement regarding stories. Reportedly over the Green Goblin's true identity.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

Oh, thanks, Dragon.

 

[Anwar]

Yep, they even had problems going as far back as the Goblin's conception: Stan Lee wanted him to be a REAL Goblin sealed away by wizards thousands of years ago unleashed in the modern day (his powers would be magic and his original broomstick would BE a broomstick), Ditko made him a costumed criminal.

 

[Dragon]

Yep, they even had problems going as far back as the Goblin's conception: Stan Lee wanted him to be a REAL Goblin sealed away by wizards thousands of years ago unleashed in the modern day (his powers would be magic and his original broomstick would BE a broomstick), Ditko made him a costumed criminal.

It was the opposite. Ditko wanted him to be a real Goblin. Being Editor, Stan always had final say. That's why Ditko left. Stan wanted the Goblin to be Osborn.

EDIT: Checking further, Steve Ditko did say that the mystical Goblin was Stan's idea.

 

[DACrowe]

Well,, if every approach to the character will have "something missing" then the problem clearly isn't with the character.



So you mean the scenes when he sits and doesn't talk to Liz and MJ are more interesting than the scenes when he sits and doesn't talk to Gwen?



MJ? The character they bounced from the comics every few years beacase she was boring to write, until they had Peter make a deal with the devil to finally be rid of her? That MJ? And Stan Lee didn't say any such thing. He liked Gwen, as she was based on his own wife.



That's not even remotely true. She's defined as being Peter's first, and possibly truest love. There is certainly more than enough material to justify this. MJ is seen as choice 2. The very fact that Gwen was only in the book for 8 years- vs. MJ's 42 years, yet Gwen's spectre is constantly revisted, reinforces this. If MJ were in and of herself interesting, they'd never need to mention Gwen again.

But your almost need to see her die does suggest some issues you might want to look into..t:

Oy. I never get why people take dislike for a character so personally. I am not a fan of the Sandman, Shocker or Eddie Brock characters in the comics and like them all in SSM. I just don't think they have ever succeeded at making Gwen interesting.

And yes, I do think the scenes where Peter talks to Liz or MJ in the show are more interesting than the ones he talks to Gwen in. Why? Because he has a more entertaining chemistry wth them and their conflict does not derive from "they want to, but something will always be in the way." The conflict is more organic and entertaining, plus Liz (on the show, as she was a bit of an afterthought in the comics during the "golden years" of Spidey) and MJ are just more interesting because they have more vibrant personalities. Gwen is draawn to be Peter's perfect parallel in the show. While in real life that may be what many of us look for, in terms of writing it is usually dull and IMO that holds true in the show.

And yes, I do think Gwen was boring in the comics as well. And by that I mean the one so boring that they didn't just bounce out of the book, but they KILLED OFF. The reason she is remembered is because she is dead. Her spectre takes on mythical status because writers mine the tragedy in Peter's life for drama. This is simply good storytelling. But rarely do they focus on the character or who she was (with the only REAL exception being Jeph Loeb), rather they focus on her as the archetypical idea of "the girlfriend who died tragically." And she is usually used as a spectre that haunts Peter to fear for MJ or <insert girlfriend's name> having the same fate or to remind readers why he hates Norman Osborn so much. Outside of Spider-Man: Blue, it has almost never been about "Gwen Stacy was this wonderful character." It was, "Gwen was Pete's first real girlfriend and she died violently." And yes, I'm glad they bring it back because it is simply good writing as that would always effect someone psychologically in some way. I wish Marvel had had the balls to actually portray Peter and MJ as grieving parents after the apparent death of their daughter, who was never mentioned again. That is bad writing that ignores a source for great writing, because Marvel wanted to take Peter back to that idyllic age before Gwen died.

I'll stand by MJ became a more interesting character over the years. Yes, she was two dimensional when she was introduced and in the '70s, but so was Gwen and of the two, MJ outshone Gwen. That is why Stan said he wanted to move Gwen out, albeit he did not want to kill her. Now, if you choose to disbelieve him, that is your business. I am merely reinforming some of what the CREATOR of these characters has to say on the matter.

And yep, MJ has been written out of the comics so they can go back to how Peter was before Gwen died and...yawn....has been so interesting. It must explain why the sales numbers have been dropping on the book (unlike when Gwen died, but to be fair that was a great story and OMD is probably the worst Spidey story ever told).

I get it, the two of you love Gwen to the point of scary obsession and anyone who disagrees "doesn't get it," and MJ is only a better character because she's been around longer and Peter loved Gwen more and blah, blah, blah.

There is little point in continuing this and I'll respond to your reply to this, but let's try and end this amicably. Also, at the end of the day this is about SSM and MJ is more interesting than Gwen is on this show, IMO. And given the hints that MJ knows who Spidey is and that they have now introduced Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin, Miles Warren as Gwen's professor, etc. my prediction is eventually Gwen will become worm food as that is what most writers see as the best aspect of the character. Sorry if you expect it to be different.

 

[DACrowe]

Uh yeah because you whined for one thing and when you got it, you were still whining.



I'm not obsessed with the character I just find your opinions on Gwen on this show to be ill supported. If you actually backed up your opinions with details, I could be more lenient.
I guess the thing that annoys me the most is people talking about how she has to die, JUST BECAUSE it happened in the comics. I've always found that to be a BS excuse.



When did she keep Peter on his toes all the time? I don't remember Peter constantly worrying about her 24/7. And he had more of an idea on how to act around Liz than Gwen.



That's because they're both just getting beyond that stage in their feelings for each other. You actually think they're going to act that way around each other forever?



Says who, and by that same token I'm guessing you thought Green Lantern and Hawkgirl were terrible together in Justice League.



Okay that's where I call a flag on your opinion. There is no way this version of Gwen is a 100% female Peter Parker from a personality point of view. On the surface it might look like that, but if you scratch the surface you'll find that's not true. For one thing, Gwen doesn't go into big head mode like Peter occasionally does. Gwen is sometimes there to be Peter's psychological support (see Natural Selection). And is more level headed than Peter usually is. In that sense, Gwen compliments Peter very well. Also Gwen doesn't live a double life that her friends don't know about. And she also gets frustrated with her friends sometimes (the look anyone). Something that Peter usually doesn't do, symbiote aside.

As for other problems you might have, who says those will be there forever?



WRONG! It was Gerry Conway (the man who wrote the night Gwen Stacy died) and John Romita Sr. who felt killing her off was the right thing to do. Stan himself was actually very hesitant and unsupportive of killing her off at the time. Over time though Stan changed his tune.



Now this is something I can see where your coming from, though I feel they have yet to strike an emotional chord in terms of the Peter/Eddie dynamic, and that part of this version of Venom has disappointed me.



I liked this version of Liz to, but I realize that whatever she and Pete had wasn't going to last forever. I realized she was a roadblock, but she was fun for a roadblock.



And your assumption that they're supposedly following the characters arcs from the comics beat for beat makes you blind. And if they don't do the deed, don't think I didn't tell you so.



PLEASE I never bought Harry as the green goblin for one minute.

1. You call me hypocrite, yet never explain why. Just keep throwing the insults.

2. You are too caught up in trivial things. The show made Gwen the female pete in that she is a geek who is friends with Harry and has trouble saying how she feels and wars glasses. She quits wearing glasses, comes out of her shell and feels morally obligated to do the right thing at the cost of her own happiness. She is the noble girl who cannot get what she wants and is a science teen expert with an internship to ESU and is friends with Eddie Brock as well and, blah blah blah. She is his female ideal, taken much further than in the original comics. As I said I simply do not think this works, as I have consistently said writing is generally better when there is natural conflict between opposing personalities in characters. Peter and Liz and Peter and MJ play off each other in an entertaining way and I do not feel Gwen does. Sorry you are so hellbent on saying my opinion is wrong.

3. Stan Lee has actually said he preferred writing MJ as a character than Gwen and said he wanted to write Gwen out of the picture so Peter could go out with MJ. Conway and Romita decided to kill Gwen and Stan found out after the fact and demanded them to bring her back, enter the original clone saga. Stan didn't like it and finally accepted she was dead. But he did say he wanted her written out of the series. Sorry to break your heart.

4. I never said following the comics beat to beat is what I wnated or what they would do. Venom was introduced before many villains while Pete is in high school. Pete thinks Harry is GG for a season and it looks that way. Norman Osborn is in control of the GG personality from the get-go. The symbiote is a force from a spacecraft that negatively effects one's emotions, etc. Peter dates Liz (something he never did in the comics) and doesn't date Betty (someone he did).

However, they all have the same main beats: Eddie becomes Venom after Spidey gets the symbiote, JJJ grows to hate Spidey as a hero. Harry gets a drug addiction. Norman turns out to be the first Green Goblin and Gwen is turning into the first true love of Peter Parker. This is all building to something that to properly pay off is good storytelling. If you think it will end differently I'm sorry for your bad case of denial. Sorry.

 

[nygma619]

DACrowe, you do know how to do in between quotes don't you? Look into it sometime, it's easier.

1. You call me hypocrite, yet never explain why. Just keep throwing the insults.

Did you miss what I said and forgot to read it? I called you a hypocrite because you asked for conflict and when they gave you conflict. You still whined over it.

2. You are too caught up in trivial things. The show made Gwen the female pete in that she is a geek who is friends with Harry and has trouble saying how she feels and wars glasses.

Some of those things are NOT trivial. Personality differences that I already pointed out are things you've blatently ignored.

As I said I simply do not think this works, as I have consistently said writing is generally better when there is natural conflict between opposing personalities in characters.

Uh characters working through personality issues IS a natural form of conflict.

Sorry you are so hellbent on saying my opinion is wrong.

And your not?

3. Stan Lee has actually said he preferred writing MJ as a character than Gwen and said he wanted to write Gwen out of the picture so Peter could go out with MJ. Conway and Romita decided to kill Gwen and Stan found out after the fact and demanded them to bring her back, enter the original clone saga. Stan didn't like it and finally accepted she was dead. But he did say he wanted her written out of the series. Sorry to break your heart.

Show me where he actually said that.

The symbiote is a force from a spacecraft that negatively effects one's emotions, etc.

And what if they went the Ultimate route the suit? And the symbiote didn't affect one's emotions in the comics.

If you think it will end differently I'm sorry for your bad case of denial. Sorry.

Your the one in denial if you think every story follows the same path (Something I've pointed out to you with Norman Osborn taking up the Mr. Roman persona, and can never be Norman Osborn to the world again.), and with Eddie on this show, there has to be a difference in the outcome between him and Eddie, because their relationship on this show is different then in the comics.

Also if I was obsessed with Gwen, I wouldn't even bother caring about MJ, Liz or Black Cat in romantic situations with Peter. But I actually appreciate the women on this show for having different personalities and interactions with Peter. Who cares if they're not all outgoing, or they don't all have the same confidence another does? That's what makes them different, and I can actually appreciate that.
And I don't buy into that they have similar personality types, so they don't go well together theory. I've seen many examples in other mediums where this type of relationship was entertaining: Green Lantern & Hawkgirl being my favorite example.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

Yep, they even had problems going as far back as the Goblin's conception: Stan Lee wanted him to be a REAL Goblin sealed away by wizards thousands of years ago unleashed in the modern day (his powers would be magic and his original broomstick would BE a broomstick), Ditko made him a costumed criminal.

What?! Really? Stan wanted Green Goblin to be some mystical criminal with a broomstick?! I do remember Green Goblin riding on a broomstick. So, can you or Dragon clarify this? Who wanted what?

 

[SpaceWay2009]

I agree with DACrowe. I also find MJ and Liz to be more interesting. But that doesn't mean I don't like Gwen.

 

[Dragon]

Oy. I never get why people take dislike for a character so personally. I am not a fan of the Sandman, Shocker or Eddie Brock characters in the comics and like them all in SSM. I just don't think they have ever succeeded at making Gwen interesting.

Well, obviously it's personal to you, since you look forward to her being killed off.

And yes, I do think the scenes where Peter talks to Liz or MJ in the show are more interesting than the ones he talks to Gwen in. Why? Because he has a more entertaining chemistry wth them and their conflict does not derive from "they want to, but something will always be in the way." The conflict is more organic and entertaining, plus Liz (on the show, as she was a bit of an afterthought in the comics during the "golden years" of Spidey) and MJ are just more interesting because they have more vibrant personalities. Gwen is draawn to be Peter's perfect parallel in the show. While in real life that may be what many of us look for, in terms of writing it is usually dull and IMO that holds true in the show.

Considering that he essentially remains mute in scens with any girls- your point about chemistry is strange. The only person who he's had a real heart to heart interaction has been Gwen. This is neither a good or bad thing, just a real thing. So again, it's seems to be more about your personal feelings about te character than the character.

And yes, I do think Gwen was boring in the comics as well. And by that I mean the one so boring that they didn't just bounce out of the book, but they KILLED OFF.

They didn't kill her because she was boring. They killed her to generate a sense of the unexpected. Also Gerry Conway wasn't equipped to write Peter Parker in a relationship. He left the book immediately after bringing Peter and MJ together.

But interestingly, killing Gwen off hasn't silenced her. There's never been a dead character that has received so much focus, short of Bruce Wayne's parents., and they fall into a very different category.

The reason she is remembered is because she is dead. Her spectre takes on mythical status because writers mine the tragedy in Peter's life for drama. This is simply good storytelling. But rarely do they focus on the character or who she was (with the only REAL exception being Jeph Loeb), rather they focus on her as the archetypical idea of "the girlfriend who died tragically." And she is usually used as a spectre that haunts Peter to fear for MJ or <insert girlfriend's name> having the same fate or to remind readers why he hates Norman Osborn so much. Outside of Spider-Man: Blue, it has almost never been about "Gwen Stacy was this wonderful character." It was, "Gwen was Pete's first real girlfriend and she died violently."

Really?

Spider-Man: Blue
House of M
Spider-Man 3
Age of Apocalypse
"The Kiss" in Webspinners
Spectacular Spider-Man
The Clone Saga
Sins Past
Universe X

Refute your point. All of those stories did indeed focus on Gwen as character not merely as dead girlfriend.

And yes, I'm glad they bring it back because it is simply good writing as that would always effect someone psychologically in some way. I wish Marvel had had the balls to actually portray Peter and MJ as grieving parents after the apparent death of their daughter, who was never mentioned again. That is bad writing that ignores a source for great writing, because Marvel wanted to take Peter back to that idyllic age before Gwen died.

It isn't good writing to simply rehash the same point over and over. There's another reason Gwen is constantly brought back.

I'll stand by MJ became a more interesting character over the years. Yes, she was two dimensional when she was introduced and in the '70s, but so was Gwen and of the two, MJ outshone Gwen.

So that's funny- Gwen is presented as two-dimensional, MJ, according to you is presented as three-dimensional, has had hundreds more appearances is part of the media blitz for Spidey and yet still can't eliminate the spectre of Gwen Stacy. Kinda sad, actually.

That is why Stan said he wanted to move Gwen out, albeit he did not want to kill her. Now, if you choose to disbelieve him, that is your business. I am merely reinforming some of what the CREATOR of these characters has to say on the matter.

Really, you want to stick with that answer?

http://www.reelzchannel.com/trailer-clips/19017/stan-lee-talks-spider-man-4

Morevoer whenever asked in the presnt, Stan always responds (curiously since again the world knows MJ as Spidey's gf/wife) That he intended for Gwen to marry Peter.

And yep, MJ has been written out of the comics so they can go back to how Peter was before Gwen died and...yawn....has been so interesting. It must explain why the sales numbers have been dropping on the book (unlike when Gwen died, but to be fair that was a great story and OMD is probably the worst Spidey story ever told).

Obviously it wasn't very interesting/nor were the sales great when MJ was there. And now, sales on ALL comic books are down. So your point is lost.

The interersting thing is that the majority of writers don't seem to find MJ interesting, which is why so many wanted her jettisoned. And as she's been removed many times over the years, with changes in creative staff, that says something. Only Gerry Conway wanted to remove Gwen.

I get it, the two of you love Gwen to the point of scary obsession and anyone who disagrees "doesn't get it," and MJ is only a better character because she's been around longer and Peter loved Gwen more and blah, blah, blah.

If anything you're obsessed with Gwen. Characters I don't care for, I rarely focus on and don't look forward to their demise.

There is little point in continuing this and I'll respond to your reply to this, but let's try and end this amicably. Also, at the end of the day this is about SSM and MJ is more interesting than Gwen is on this show, IMO. And given the hints that MJ knows who Spidey is and that they have now introduced Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin, Miles Warren as Gwen's professor, etc. my prediction is eventually Gwen will become worm food as that is what most writers see as the best aspect of the character. Sorry if you expect it to be different.

Of course you say this without backing it up. Looking at the actual stories in print- As many writers focus on Gwen as Peter's first/true love as those that focus on her death. And even then- it's still presenting her as his first/true love. But we know that most writers tire of writing MJ. In recent discussions, only Peter David was in favor of maintaing the marriage.

As far as the show, they've altered much from the comics. Peter and Liz never dated. Gwen and Harry never dated. Gwen was never shy and bookish. Harry had no connection to the Goblin legacy until after Norman's death. Miles Warren wasn't engaged in criminal activity unilt after Gwen's death. And MJ never had a relationship with The Molten Man. She did however date Harry which the show is nowhere near presenting. And since in the comics MJ is no longer status quo girlfriend, there's no mandate regarding that.

So your crystal ball appears to be dusty..