Gwen Stacy...to kill or not to kill.

[nygma619]

Actually Dragon Gwen and Harry were sort of dating (well they had gone on many dates), though how seriously Gwen took it, none of us know.

 

[Dragon]

Actually Dragon Gwen and Harry were sort of dating (well they had gone on many dates), though how seriously Gwen took it, none of us know.

They never dated, as in being a couple as the SSM cartoon suggests. They only hung out as friends. In their first appearance in ASM #31 Harry is introducing Gwen to other guys, and clearly not as his girlfirend And Gwen certainly has no romantic interest in Harry, as she's thinking casually about how every guy except Peter has approached her.

The only one considered to be dating Gwen at that point was Flash, and she clearly had no romantic interest in him either.

 

[nygma619]

^^^^^

There were a couple times where Gwen & Harry mentioned they went on casual dates.

But nobody considered them "paired down". Well it still semi-counts in my book, but if you don't think it does, I wouldn't argue very straineously on that.

 

[Dragon]

Rgiht. They hung out as friends. We have to remember that things were a bit different back in the 60's. "Dating" wasn't "going steady" or as Peter says being "pinned". And clearly in that scene Gwen shows no romantic interest in Harry. Very different from what's happening in the cartoon.

 

[nygma619]

Rgiht. They hung out as friends. We have to remember that things were a bit different back in the 60's. "Dating" wasn't "going steady" or as Peter says being "pinned".

Really? It's that different? Boy this version of Mary Jane is stuck in a different decade.

 

[DACrowe]

And your not?

Not really. As I have been mostly defending my opinion, I respect you liking Gwen, but I say why I find her boring and then you take my opinions and say authoritatively that I'm wrong. In fact most of this thread is taking my points and saying "no, no." I said she is a dry character who is similar too similar to Peter with a contrived and artificial sense of conflict being created. You say that I am absolutely wrong and the dance continues.

One last thing I gave a laundry list of things changed in the show from the comics, but pointed out the broad strokes are the same as the writers of this show obviously love golden age Spidey.

This was fun. I'll try and find your link for Stan Lee later today. I really see no point in continuing this. Agree to disagree.

 

[DACrowe]

Well, obviously it's personal to you, since you look forward to her being killed off.



Considering that he essentially remains mute in scens with any girls- your point about chemistry is strange. The only person who he's had a real heart to heart interaction has been Gwen. This is neither a good or bad thing, just a real thing. So again, it's seems to be more about your personal feelings about te character than the character.



They didn't kill her because she was boring. They killed her to generate a sense of the unexpected. Also Gerry Conway wasn't equipped to write Peter Parker in a relationship. He left the book immediately after bringing Peter and MJ together.

But interestingly, killing Gwen off hasn't silenced her. There's never been a dead character that has received so much focus, short of Bruce Wayne's parents., and they fall into a very different category.



Really?

Spider-Man: Blue
House of M
Spider-Man 3
Age of Apocalypse
"The Kiss" in Webspinners
Spectacular Spider-Man
The Clone Saga
Sins Past
Universe X

Refute your point. All of those stories did indeed focus on Gwen as character not merely as dead girlfriend.



It isn't good writing to simply rehash the same point over and over. There's another reason Gwen is constantly brought back.



So that's funny- Gwen is presented as two-dimensional, MJ, according to you is presented as three-dimensional, has had hundreds more appearances is part of the media blitz for Spidey and yet still can't eliminate the spectre of Gwen Stacy. Kinda sad, actually.



Really, you want to stick with that answer?

http://www.reelzchannel.com/trailer-clips/19017/stan-lee-talks-spider-man-4

Morevoer whenever asked in the presnt, Stan always responds (curiously since again the world knows MJ as Spidey's gf/wife) That he intended for Gwen to marry Peter.



Obviously it wasn't very interesting/nor were the sales great when MJ was there. And now, sales on ALL comic books are down. So your point is lost.

The interersting thing is that the majority of writers don't seem to find MJ interesting, which is why so many wanted her jettisoned. And as she's been removed many times over the years, with changes in creative staff, that says something. Only Gerry Conway wanted to remove Gwen.



If anything you're obsessed with Gwen. Characters I don't care for, I rarely focus on and don't look forward to their demise.



Of course you say this without backing it up. Looking at the actual stories in print- As many writers focus on Gwen as Peter's first/true love as those that focus on her death. And even then- it's still presenting her as his first/true love. But we know that most writers tire of writing MJ. In recent discussions, only Peter David was in favor of maintaing the marriage.

As far as the show, they've altered much from the comics. Peter and Liz never dated. Gwen and Harry never dated. Gwen was never shy and bookish. Harry had no connection to the Goblin legacy until after Norman's death. Miles Warren wasn't engaged in criminal activity unilt after Gwen's death. And MJ never had a relationship with The Molten Man. She did however date Harry which the show is nowhere near presenting. And since in the comics MJ is no longer status quo girlfriend, there's no mandate regarding that.

So your crystal ball appears to be dusty..

Why are you so angry?

You do this in any thread that remotely mentions the character of Gwen. It is a very disproportionate reaction.

So I am a bad person for wishing Gwen dead? Not really. I simply don't like this iteration of the character (and granted not much of any other) and do indeed look forward to seeing her removed from the story, because I think developing MJ (which would be easier to do after Gwen is out of the picture) and other characters (including the Spidey/BC immature, but entertaining relationship) is more interesting. Nothing personal, I simply think there are better characters to focus on.


And yes, I saw many of those stories you listed in your post. But most either treat Gwen as an enigmatic mystery (The Kiss) or rewrite her entirely (Sins Past), because she is a blank slate of a character with not much going on. So she is treated, as I said in my previous post, as the arcehtype of the haunting dead girlfriend, because that is GREAT MATERIAL to write about Peter's character. Your obsession with having MJ compete with Gwen is ridiculous. They're different. And as they're both fictional I don't think MJ's feelings are hurt. But if you want to go on about that, I'll point out that MJ just happens to be THE main love interest for the character in TAS, the movies (Gwen is muted to the role of 'the other woman') and now the musical, as well as being introduced early in the canon of the SSM.

I'm not discrediting Gwen as a character that has had a hugely POSITIVE effect on the Spidey mythos. I just don't like her. I only commented on it here as that WAS WHAT THIS FREAKING THREAD IS ABOUT and then Gwen's fanboys jump down my throat for simply not saying she is the best. You're right MJ has had more stories and has evolved more because of it. Great. Poor Gwen. I don't care anymore.

 

[nygma619]

Not really. As I have been mostly defending my opinion,

With some arguements or claims/views that are flawed. Your claim that Stan Lee was for killing off Gwen immediately springs to mind.

I respect you liking Gwen, but I say why I find her boring and then you take my opinions and say authoritatively that I'm wrong.

Actually you kept making points then I challenged them with counterpoints, is there a problem with me doing that? At least thats the way I feel this has been going.
And some of your points I wouldn't have a problem if some of them (IMO) weren't poorly thought out.

And how does NOT being outgoing make a character boring? That sounds like an artificial viewpoint IMO.

with a contrived and artificial sense of conflict being created.

Why do you think a character (or two) trying to get over their awkwardness in talking to someone they care about, about their feelings is artificial?

People go through problems like that in real life (I did in high school). I don't see how it's artificial.

As far as contrived goes, what makes you think so?

One last thing I gave a laundry list of things changed in the show from the comics, but pointed out the broad strokes are the same as the writers of this show obviously love golden age Spidey.

And you think that's proof that they're going follow every major story arc with the characters on this show? WEAK.

I feel they're doing stories that they liked from the comic along with more original ones. They're not going to follow things slavishly. I've watched all 3 shows greg weisman had charge of. Believe me he's not someone who wants his stories to become merely predictable. Or for all viewers to think they know where things are going.

This was fun. I'll try and find your link for Stan Lee later today.

Try finding a legit one.

I really see no point in continuing this. Agree to disagree.

To borrow one of my favorite series of Simpsons quotes, this sums up how I feel about that comment.

Ned: Well, I guess this is a case where we'll have to agree to disagree.
Skinner: I don't agree to that.
Edna: Neither do I!

 

[Dragon]

Why are you so angry?

You do this in any thread that remotely mentions the character of Gwen. It is a very disproportionate reaction.

What- disagree with you? Yes that reflects anger. Certainly the fact that you look forward to the death of a fictional character doesn't represent any hostility on your part...

And taling about obsession- why do you read every thread about a character you don't care for?

So I am a bad person for wishing Gwen dead? Not really. I simply don't like this iteration of the character (and granted not much of any other) and do indeed look forward to seeing her removed from the story, because I think developing MJ (which would be easier to do after Gwen is out of the picture) and other characters (including the Spidey/BC immature, but entertaining relationship) is more interesting. Nothing personal, I simply think there are better characters to focus on.

Well, it isn't very healthy to want anyone, real or fictional dead. Regarding Gwen, apparently nothing short of a terrible death will satisfy you. Not simply focusing on other characters (Which they certainly do in the series) but her being DEAD. Also your insistence that there's nothing that can be done with the character suggest something personal from your perspective.

There are no inherently good or bad characters. Only bad writing. I don't like Black Cat or Venom because I don't like their handling. But I would never say there's nothing that can be done to make them interesting. I certainly don't ned to see them die. And while I think MJ is a superficial character that a multitude of writers have little interest in developing- I can easily see how she could be improved to make the relationship between her and Peter worth following for the longhaul, gimmick-free.

And yes, I saw many of those stories you listed in your post. But most either treat Gwen as an enigmatic mystery (The Kiss) or rewrite her entirely (Sins Past), because she is a blank slate of a character with not much going on.

Sins Past didn't rewrite her at all. It added an event into her life that couldn't have happened. Either physically, or character-wise. And the very fact that SP in universally panned (Even by the writer) because everyone felt these actions were UNCHARACTERISTIC of Gwen- kills your blank slate argument.

The Kiss- and all of the other stories I mentioned didn't focus on Peter's feelings about her death. They focused on his feelings about her as a person. Why he loved her. Why he loves her still. Her death is incidental. And the 90's show clearly didn't focus on her death, since she hadn't died in the show.

Your obsession with having MJ compete with Gwen is ridiculous. They're different. And as they're both fictional I don't think MJ's feelings are hurt. But if you want to go on about that, I'll point out that MJ just happens to be THE main love interest for the character in TAS, the movies (Gwen is muted to the role of 'the other woman') and now the musical, as well as being introduced early in the canon of the SSM.

I compare them because you do. As for MJ being the main love interest it's only because she's the one they have available to work with. By the time of all the projects you mentioned, Gwen had been dead for at least twenty years.

But at the same time your argument falls flat since:

1. MJ only became relationship material for Peter after they made her "Gwen-like". She's never presented as the flighty party girl/ wise-ass in any of the material you mentioned (Which I actually think is a mistake. She'd be a better character if she was). In SSM, she's strangley written aas though some type of teenaged relationship therapist- which is totally unrealistic considering her background. But I guees that's your "blankslate" thing.

2. Again- despite Gwen being dead for neasrly 40 years now, MJ can't remove consciousness of her. That's pretty much unprecedented. If they wrote interesting stories with MJ, there'd be no need to mention Gwen as often as they do. They certainly didn't focus on Ben, Captain Stacy or Harry (When he was dead) that much.

3. And even with Gwen's appearnance in the movie, which was an afterthought, her character still brings heat to the plot. And she doesn't die there either.

I'm not discrediting Gwen as a character that has had a hugely POSITIVE effect on the Spidey mythos. I just don't like her. I only commented on it here as that WAS WHAT THIS FREAKING THREAD IS ABOUT and then Gwen's fanboys jump down my throat for simply not saying she is the best. You're right MJ has had more stories and has evolved more because of it. Great. Poor Gwen. I don't care anymore.

You sure you're not harboring a little anger there, bud? No one's jumping down your throat. You made some points- I disagreed with them and countered. Just repeat to yourself that your in a "happy place". You need not take my points any more personally than I do your "obsession" remarks.

But back on subject- The fact is that Gwen's character only stagnated because they stopped developing her. Stan left the book and Conway had no interest in doing so. MJ has had whole storylines devoted to her development, and yet still wears out her welcome. Again- I don't agree with this. She could be developed into being a character worth following. But Gwen had more potential. Stan saw it. I and lots of others see it. The reason most refer to MJ as Peter's love interest is because she was there in their first contact with Spidey. Gwen's a footnote from a bygone era. If it had been the other way around... well, you know.

 

[DACrowe]

With some arguements or claims/views that are flawed. Your claim that Stan Lee was for killing off Gwen immediately springs to mind.



Actually you kept making points then I challenged them with counterpoints, is there a problem with me doing that? At least thats the way I feel this has been going.
And some of your points I wouldn't have a problem if some of them (IMO) weren't poorly thought out.

And how does NOT being outgoing make a character boring? That sounds like an artificial viewpoint IMO.



Why do you think a character (or two) trying to get over their awkwardness in talking to someone they care about, about their feelings is artificial?

People go through problems like that in real life (I did in high school). I don't see how it's artificial.

As far as contrived goes, what makes you think so?



And you think that's proof that they're going follow every major story arc with the characters on this show? WEAK.

I feel they're doing stories that they liked from the comic along with more original ones. They're not going to follow things slavishly. I've watched all 3 shows greg weisman had charge of. Believe me he's not someone who wants his stories to become merely predictable. Or for all viewers to think they know where things are going.



Try finding a legit one.



To borrow one of my favorite series of Simpsons quotes, this sums up how I feel about that comment.

I am not going down this road with you anymore, because it is blatantly clear you do not want to reasonably discuss or argue this and any points or opinions I make that differ from your's. It simply infuriates you and rationality is abandoned.

For example, I never said Stan Lee was for killing off Gwen Stacy ever and wrote several times he was angry and upset when he found out about it and even demanded for them to bring her back. But you put words in my mouth, because it makes your argument better.

I simply looked up a google search and did not find the article where Stan said he wanted Gwen out of the story, because he preferred MJ. But apparently Roy Thomas wrote that he, Conway and Stan Lee came to the consensus that Gwen had to go because of a likely marriage and he did want her out of the book, because the relationship was "too perfect," (interestingly a point I've been making). However, it was Romita's (or Conway's depending where you read it) idea to kill her off. This is found on Wikipedia's "Death of Gwen Stacy." I may delve deeper to find the article I was talking about later, but at this point it may seem moot. Also, if you watch the "Women of Spider-Man" or whatever the featurette on the Spider-Man 2 DVD is called, Stan calls MJ "more interesting" and that he tried to write Gwen like her, but it didn't work. Not that it reinforces my argument at all, just saying what the creator said decades after the fact.

In any case it doesn't matter, it's all opinion on fictional characters. Have fun.

 

[DACrowe]

What- disagree with you? Yes that reflects anger. Certainly the fact that you look forward to the death of a fictional character doesn't represent any hostility on your part...

And taling about obsession- why do you read every thread about a character you don't care for?



Well, it isn't very healthy to want anyone, real or fictional dead. Regarding Gwen, apparently nothing short of a terrible death will satisfy you. Not simply focusing on other characters (Which they certainly do in the series) but her being DEAD. Also your insistence that there's nothing that can be done with the character suggest something personal from your perspective.

There are no inherently good or bad characters. Only bad writing. I don't like Black Cat or Venom because I don't like their handling. But I would never say there's nothing that can be done to make them interesting. I certainly don't ned to see them die. And while I think MJ is a superficial character that a multitude of writers have little interest in developing- I can easily see how she could be improved to make the relationship between her and Peter worth following for the longhaul, gimmick-free.



Sins Past didn't rewrite her at all. It added an event into her life that couldn't have happened. Either physically, or character-wise. And the very fact that SP in universally panned (Even by the writer) because everyone felt these actions were UNCHARACTERISTIC of Gwen- kills your blank slate argument.

The Kiss- and all of the other stories I mentioned didn't focus on Peter's feelings about her death. They focused on his feelings about her as a person. Why he loved her. Why he loves her still. Her death is incidental. And the 90's show clearly didn't focus on her death, since she hadn't died in the show.



I compare them because you do. As for MJ being the main love interest it's only because she's the one they have available to work with. By the time of all the projects you mentioned, Gwen had been dead for at least twenty years.

But at the same time your argument falls flat since:

1. MJ only became relationship material for Peter after they made her "Gwen-like". She's never presented as the flighty party girl/ wise-ass in any of the material you mentioned (Which I actually think is a mistake. She'd be a better character if she was). In SSM, she's strangley written aas though some type of teenaged relationship therapist- which is totally unrealistic considering her background. But I guees that's your "blankslate" thing.

2. Again- despite Gwen being dead for neasrly 40 years now, MJ can't remove consciousness of her. That's pretty much unprecedented. If they wrote interesting stories with MJ, there'd be no need to mention Gwen as often as they do. They certainly didn't focus on Ben, Captain Stacy or Harry (When he was dead) that much.

3. And even with Gwen's appearnance in the movie, which was an afterthought, her character still brings heat to the plot. And she doesn't die there either.



You sure you're not harboring a little anger there, bud? No one's jumping down your throat. You made some points- I disagreed with them and countered. Just repeat to yourself that your in a "happy place". You need not take my points any more personally than I do your "obsession" remarks.

But back on subject- The fact is that Gwen's character only stagnated because they stopped developing her. Stan left the book and Conway had no interest in doing so. MJ has had whole storylines devoted to her development, and yet still wears out her welcome. Again- I don't agree with this. She could be developed into being a character worth following. But Gwen had more potential. Stan saw it. I and lots of others see it. The reason most refer to MJ as Peter's love interest is because she was there in their first contact with Spidey. Gwen's a footnote from a bygone era. If it had been the other way around... well, you know.

ugh. If you are really going to start making accusations in my general direction, because I said I want to see a character who died in a source material to die in an adaptation, I cannot counter. Your argument is a form of character assassination and I am rather ambivalent about the fate of Gwen Stacy, so go on. I do not take it personally, nor am obsessed with killing the character. I simply think it would make for good story telling and as this is an adaptation, I think it would serve the series well. Similarly I would think any adaptation of Hamlet would benefit from Ophelia dying, not because I'm a mysanthrope, but because she is a great character with a great death, whose arc and purpose is never fully realized unless she drowns herself. But I suppose I have an unhealthy obsession with wanting the character to die? I also want Claudius, Hamlet, Laertes and Gertrude to die at the end of that story. I sure must be blood thirsty.

I do think you are overly defensive of anyone who criticizes the character and then to strengthen your arguments attack another fictional character. I agree that MJ had the benefit of time and more stories that have benefited her, as I SAID THAT IN MY POSTS. I was simply pointing out how silly it is to list all the stories Gwen is in and say it proves she is the best female character because she is in this cartoon and had basically a cameo in the Spider-Man movies. I just did the exact same thing for MJ. And I said I preferred the character. You are the one who attacks another character for "being overshadowed" and insinuate is a poor character that has failed to support continuity without the ray of light that is Gwen's memory.

I see Gwen in the comics as a character with unfulfilled potential, who was bland and killed off. I agree if she had stuck around for 20-30 more years she would be much more interesting as seen in the snippets of her in Blue (I again do not count something like the Kiss as she is written not as a character, but a nostalgic ideal, as it is about what "the one that got away" meant to Peter). But she was killed off and I do not think the SM3 or SSM versions of her are very interesting. I'm not saying she couldn't be, but I have yet to be impressed. And for that I apparently have an unhealthy obsession with killing off a character?

Ok. I only posted in here as it was an interesting topic where I thought we'd talk about the merits of the character in the show and how she could serve the plot in future episodes. Not whether she should have lived and is a more powerful force in comics mythos than Mary Jane.

Bye bye.

 

[nygma619]

In SSM, she's strangley written aas though some type of teenaged relationship therapist- which is totally unrealistic considering her background.

What have we been given of Mary Jane's background? They haven't really scratched the surface on MJ's background yet (something I hope Greg and Co. do in Season 3), so you can't really say her characterization is unrealistic.
Now if we explore MJ's background later on and then it contradicts her previous characterization, then you might have an arguement.

 

[nygma619]

I am not going down this road with you anymore, because it is blatantly clear you do not want to reasonably discuss or argue this and any points or opinions I make that differ from your's. It simply infuriates you and rationality is abandoned.

If this is about that Simpson's quote I made in my last post towards you, then clearly you do not pick up on sarcasm very well.

As far as some of your opinions differing, all I did was challenge your claims and ask you to back up some of them. And I've asked if you could reasonably back up your claims.
But you've avoided some of them, like when I asked you why you thought teenagers getting over awkwardness of talking to their best friend is artificial? Or what was so contrived about their situations?

You could've simply answered those, but all your doing is claiming that I'm being irrational or obsessive simply for challenging your opinions.

For example, I never said Stan Lee was for killing off Gwen Stacy ever and wrote several times he was angry and upset when he found out about it and even demanded for them to bring her back. But you put words in my mouth, because it makes your argument better.

WHAT? You made many claims that Stan wanted to kill her off to get her out of the way. Do I need to go back and show you where you made those claims in this thread?

I simply looked up a google search and did not find the article where Stan said he wanted Gwen out of the story, because he preferred MJ. But apparently Roy Thomas wrote that he, Conway and Stan Lee came to the consensus that Gwen had to go because of a likely marriage and he did want her out of the book, because the relationship was "too perfect," (interestingly a point I've been making).

Maybe you should make sure you have your facts straight before you make any claims and claim them as facts.

As far as the relationship being "too perfect" in the comics, well whose fault was that to begin with?

How about the writers.

Stan calls MJ "more interesting" and that he tried to write Gwen like her, but it didn't work.

You think maybe that was one of the problems to begin with?

 

[Dragon]

ugh. If you are really going to start making accusations in my general direction, because I said I want to see a character who died in a source material to die in an adaptation, I cannot counter. Your argument is a form of character assassination and I am rather ambivalent about the fate of Gwen Stacy, so go on. I do not take it personally, nor am obsessed with killing the character. I simply think it would make for good story telling and as this is an adaptation, I think it would serve the series well. Similarly I would think any adaptation of Hamlet would benefit from Ophelia dying, not because I'm a mysanthrope, but because she is a great character with a great death, whose arc and purpose is never fully realized unless she drowns herself. But I suppose I have an unhealthy obsession with wanting the character to die? I also want Claudius, Hamlet, Laertes and Gertrude to die at the end of that story. I sure must be blood thirsty.

Well, let me applaud you for your performance there. You do a pretty good Hamlet yourself.

No, Hamlet and other Shakespearean work is not the same as serial story telling like Spider-Man. Hamlet was structured from page one for the characters to receive their fate.

Gwen was not. Her death was a gimmick. No question it led to a great story. I pray for the day when the writing in the comics reaches that level again. But her living could have also led to great stories in the right hands.

I do think you are overly defensive of anyone who criticizes the character and then to strengthen your arguments attack another fictional character. I agree that MJ had the benefit of time and more stories that have benefited her, as I SAID THAT IN MY POSTS. I was simply pointing out how silly it is to list all the stories Gwen is in and say it proves she is the best female character because she is in this cartoon and had basically a cameo in the Spider-Man movies. I just did the exact same thing for MJ. And I said I preferred the character. You are the one who attacks another character for "being overshadowed" and insinuate is a poor character that has failed to support continuity without the ray of light that is Gwen's memory.

Uh.. And you attacked Gwen's character. What's your point? We're on opposite sides of a debate. As you use comparisons to other characters to explain why you think Gwen is lacking as a character, I use comparisons to say why she isn't.

The reason I say you take the desire for Gwen's death too far is that Gwen doesn't have to die for MJ to be developed as a character. Based on the direction the show is going in, Peter and Gwen could very easily just not work out. They certainly don't have anything approaching the love and connection of the comics. But you insist that she must die. Does this mean I think you're a bad person who shouldn't be allowed near children or puppies? Of course not.

I see Gwen in the comics as a character with unfulfilled potential, who was bland and killed off. I agree if she had stuck around for 20-30 more years she would be much more interesting as seen in the snippets of her in Blue (I again do not count something like the Kiss as she is written not as a character, but a nostalgic ideal, as it is about what "the one that got away" meant to Peter). But she was killed off and I do not think the SM3 or SSM versions of her are very interesting. I'm not saying she couldn't be, but I have yet to be impressed. And for that I apparently have an unhealthy obsession with killing off a character?

Again- the fact that you continue to suggest that no approach to the character will be interesting says you have a personal issue with the character. In Spidey 3 Bryce Howard's performance of the character was certainly more vibrant than Dunst's sullen and *****y MJ. But that's not interesting, right?

In SSM Gwen is smart, sweet and shy (Too shy IMO). But that's not interesting either.

In the comics she was strong-willed and yet very loving. But that's also not interesting.

The only difference with MJ was her initial flightiness, which was abandoned once they decided to cast her as Peter's love interest. But she was always interesting, right?

Ok. I only posted in here as it was an interesting topic where I thought we'd talk about the merits of the character in the show and how she could serve the plot in future episodes. Not whether she should have lived and is a more powerful force in comics mythos than Mary Jane.

Bye bye.

And that's fine. No one is discouraging you from doing so. Your attempt at martyrdom just because someone disagrees with you (I'm sure there are many who absolutely agree with you) in puzzling.

Just as I don't feel the need to focus on your saying I'm obsessed and defensive about Gwen you need not continue to focus on my joking about your need for a fictional character to be murdered.

Now as it's Easter weekend, can I help you back onto your cross? Should I pound in the nails?

 

[Dragon]

What have we been given of Mary Jane's background? They haven't really scratched the surface on MJ's background yet (something I hope Greg and Co. do in Season 3), so you can't really say her characterization is unrealistic.
Now if we explore MJ's background later on and then it contradicts her previous characterization, then you might have an arguement.

I was referring to MJ's background in the comics (And movies) of a troubled family life. It's unrealisitc for the MJ in the cartoon to be so wise and experienced about relationships coming from such a background. In fact it would be more relaisitc that she be shy as they've chosen to present Gwen.

Meanwhile Gwen, who has always had a strong realtionship with her father would probablty be more centered and confident. Not as easily manipulated as she is in the show.

Now maybe they intend to change MJ's background in the series. We'll see.

 

[DACrowe]

If this is about that Simpson's quote I made in my last post towards you, then clearly you do not pick up on sarcasm very well.

As far as some of your opinions differing, all I did was challenge your claims and ask you to back up some of them. And I've asked if you could reasonably back up your claims.
But you've avoided some of them, like when I asked you why you thought teenagers getting over awkwardness of talking to their best friend is artificial? Or what was so contrived about their situations?

You could've simply answered those, but all your doing is claiming that I'm being irrational or obsessive simply for challenging your opinions.



WHAT? You made many claims that Stan wanted to kill her off to get her out of the way. Do I need to go back and show you where you made those claims in this thread?



Maybe you should make sure you have your facts straight before you make any claims and claim them as facts.

As far as the relationship being "too perfect" in the comics, well whose fault was that to begin with?

How about the writers.



You think maybe that was one of the problems to begin with?

Prove it.

Talk about getting facts wrong.

 

[Dragon]

What?! Really? Stan wanted Green Goblin to be some mystical criminal with a broomstick?! I do remember Green Goblin riding on a broomstick. So, can you or Dragon clarify this? Who wanted what?

The Wikipedia article on the Goblin has Steve Ditko quoted as saying that Stan's synopsis had a movie crew unearthing a sarcophagus containing the Goblin who came to life when it was opened. Steve says he changed that to the Goblin we know.

The reason I question this is that Steve was more interested in the mystical in his work (Such as his run on Dr. Strange and subsequent work after he left Marvel). Whereas Stan's creations were almost always science based.

There's a book "Bring on the Bad Guys" by Stan that gives his take on the creation of the Goblin as well as Doom and others. I'm going to track it down to see what he says.

 

[Anwar]

That would have been cool, making the guy who ultimately became Spidey's archenemy be a being of magic opposed to all the science-based enemies (and Science based Spidey himself) but I don't think he'd have worked as a recurring enemy unless he disguised himself as a human.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

The Wikipedia article on the Goblin has Steve Ditko quoted as saying that Stan's synopsis had a movie crew unearthing a sarcophagus containing the Goblin who came to life when it was opened. Steve says he changed that to the Goblin we know.

The reason I question this is that Steve was more interested in the mystical in his work (Such as his run on Dr. Strange and subsequent work after he left Marvel). Whereas Stan's creations were almost always science based.

There's a book "Bring on the Bad Guys" by Stan that gives his take on the creation of the Goblin as well as Doom and others. I'm going to track it down to see what he says.

Oh...So Stan pretty much favor the science-based creation of villains, whereas Steve prefers mystical villains?

 

[nygma619]

Prove it.

Okay I will.

As Stan Lee said himself, they had to move Gwen out of the way for more interesting characters.

That is why Stan said he wanted to move Gwen out, albeit he did not want to kill her. Now, if you choose to disbelieve him, that is your business. I am merely reinforming some of what the CREATOR of these characters has to say on the matter.

Stan never said it was his desire to write Gwen off, where are you getting this?

3. Stan Lee has actually said he preferred writing MJ as a character than Gwen and said he wanted to write Gwen out of the picture so Peter could go out with MJ. Conway and Romita decided to kill Gwen and Stan found out after the fact and demanded them to bring her back, enter the original clone saga. Stan didn't like it and finally accepted she was dead. But he did say he wanted her written out of the series. Sorry to break your heart.

You have yet to supply any evidence to back this up.

 

[SpeterMan3]

I say no if there is no guarantee for a lot of future seasons (not that that's expected or anything). If for some weird reason, there's like a 10 season guarantee, then go for it. Other than that, maybe in the direct-to-DVDs. I'm gonna vote maybe...

 

[Venom 1988]

I say no if there is no guarantee for a lot of future seasons (not that that's expected or anything). If for some weird reason, there's like a 10 season guarantee, then go for it. Other than that, maybe in the direct-to-DVDs. I'm gonna vote maybe...

The creators said they want to go to 5 seasons and stop, then DTV afterwards.

 

[venomfangs125]

Just so long as its around college, after 5 seasons, more adult languange, the death of Gwen, and the 'death of Gobby'. And possibly, other.. but FOR THE LOVE OF ALLthat is HOLY no GREY Goblin.

 

[Venom 1988]

Just so long as its around college, after 5 seasons, more adult languange, the death of Gwen, and the 'death of Gobby'. And possibly, other.. but FOR THE LOVE OF ALLthat is HOLY no GREY Goblin.

I don't see whats the point of this. To curse just for the hell of it?

 

[Darth Megatron]

I have always liked Gwen but when they made her a nerd i was skeptical bt got to like her as pete`s friend but when she took off the glasses i began to like her as attractive now iwant to see them together so if she dies it will be sad bcuz we grown w/ the character