Harry Potter & The Deathly Hallows - Part 2

[Ipodman]

1. How was Snape's scenes handled? His redemption ad the truth, that is.

I really liked EVERYTHING about Snape in this installment. His scenes are very well executed and there's [BLACKOUT]the flashback scene[/BLACKOUT] which is easily my fav part of the movie.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Holy.
Crap.
x infinity x infinity

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I agree that the prophecy was always about how Voldemort was going to choose Harry based on a prophecy he misunderstood in the first place, but it still remains that all of it was based on the fact that he was the one who chose between the two boys in the first place. The prophecy basically foretold that he was going to choose either Neville or Harry.

No, I don't think so. Here is the prophecy according to the HP wikia.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

Nowhere does it say there is a choice, just that Voldy will mark the boy. Why Neville is brought up is that he fits the vague description of the "Chosen One". But it is always Harry. It is "The One", not the pair from which Voldy will choose.

It is like saying find me someone born in late May, with brown hair and the last name of Morgan. That is your savior. I am sure there would be plenty of names on that list, but only one would be the Morgan we are looking for.

 

[Liam_H]

No, I don't think so. Here is the prophecy according to the HP wikia.



Nowhere does it say there is a choice, just that Voldy will mark the boy. Why Neville is brought up is that he fits the vague description of the "Chosen One". But it is always Harry. It is "The One", not the pair from which Voldy will choose.

It is like saying find me someone born in late May, with brown hair and the last name of Morgan. That is your savior. I am sure there would be plenty of names on that list, but only one would be the Morgan we are looking for.

So its safe to say if Voldemort literally did nothing and let both of the boys live full lives, he never would have initiated the prophecy? Because he would never mark either one.

 

[roach]

I saw this with some friends and was disappointed. Some parts got downright boring.

 

[flickchick85]

So yeah, a lot of sniffling in that audience. It was like Titanic in there.

Overall, I thought it was a wonderful send-off. All my favorite moments from the book were damn near perfectly adapted.

 

[Ipodman]

My theater applauded and cheered whenever any villain died

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So its safe to say if Voldemort literally did nothing and let both of the boys live full lives, he never would have initiated the prophecy? Because he would never mark either one.

In theory, I guess. But then he would of had to give up his crusade and desire for immortality, destroyed his horcruxes and then killed himself.

The reason there must be "The Boy Who Lived" is because Voldemort is the evil, twisted man he is. He would not have stopped. Even if he didn't go after Harry that night, they would of eventually had met in battle. After all Harry would of still been Harry and he would have fought against the oppressor.

 

[chaseter]

Well success...I almost cried. I had to hold back actual tears. Damn you emotions.

Best movie I have seen in a long, long time. I will come up with some actual thoughts tomorrow. Can't think of one, single, negative.

10/10

 

[Marvolo]

I agree that the prophecy was always about how Voldemort was going to choose Harry based on a prophecy he misunderstood in the first place, but it still remains that all of it was based on the fact that he was the one who chose between the two boys in the first place. The prophecy basically foretold that he was going to choose either Neville or Harry.

Exactly. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. Had Voldemort not done anything nothing would have happened. It all comes down to the fact that the prophecy itself wasn't going to make anyone the chosen one. It took an action by Voldemort. There is nothing pre-destined about it as the future is always changing. A prophecy is simply someone tapping into one persons possible future. Any number of things could have put it off track. As Dumbledore says Harry could have went into hiding and ignored the prophecy.The fact Voldemort made a conscious decision to choose between Harry and Neville means they both had the same chances of becoming the chosen one since it is Voldemort who has to make that decision not the prophecy. The only other option is to say a higher power had a hand in Voldemort's choosing. When Voldemort chose Harry the Unspeakables in the Department of Mystery's labeled the prophecy as Harry. Had he chose Neville his name would be on the prophecy. Nowehere in the prophecy though does it name Harry. Its set up in the books that Neville had just as much chance of being the chosen one as Harry. Honestly, I didn't even know this was up for debate. I took it as fact, and I've never come across anyone who didn't think that. Hmmm, encounter new ideas every day I guess.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm betting a .gif of [blackout]Draco and Voldemort's awkward hug[/blackout] appears before the weekend's up. I'll be disappointed if it's not, tbh. That was epic.

 

[Liam_H]

In theory, I guess. But then he would of had to give up his crusade and desire for immortality, destroyed his horcruxes and then killed himself.

The reason there must be "The Boy Who Lived" is because Voldemort is the evil, twisted man he is. He would not have stopped. Even if he didn't go after Harry that night, they would of eventually had met in battle. After all Harry would of still been Harry and he would have fought against the oppressor.

Obviously this is all just conjecture but its still fun to talk about. I don't follow what you mean by him giving up his quest for immortality, by the time he attacked the Potters he had already created all the other Horcruxes. Voldemort could've easily dismissed the prophecy and not care.

Also I'm not so sure they would eventually have to meet since the demise of his parents basically shapes his life. Yeah he still would have fought against him and what he stood for but not in such a pivotal role. Unless you say of course its destiny no matter what and even if Harry has his parents he would face Voldemort eventually.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Exactly. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. Had Voldemort not done anything nothing would have happened. It all comes down to the fact that the prophecy itself wasn't going to make anyone the chosen one. It took an action by Voldemort. There is nothing pre-destined about it as the future is always changing. A prophecy is simply someone tapping into one persons possible future. Any number of things could have put it off track. As Dumbledore says Harry could have went into hiding and ignored the prophecy.The fact Voldemort made a conscious decision to choose between Harry and Neville means they both had the same chances of becoming the chosen one since it is Voldemort who has to make that decision not the prophecy. The only other option is to say a higher power had a hand in Voldemort's choosing. When Voldemort chose Harry the Unspeakables in the Department of Mystery's labeled the prophecy as Harry. Had he chose Neville his name would be on the prophecy. Nowehere in the prophecy though does it name Harry. Its set up in the books that Neville had just as much chance of being the chosen one as Harry. Honestly, I didn't even know this was up for debate. I took it as fact, and I've never come across anyone who didn't think that. Hmmm, encounter new ideas every day I guess.

The prophecy holds no power, but it does tell what is going to happen.

Think of it this way. The only reason there is a prophecy that some boy needs to born to kill Tom Riddle is because of the monster Tom Riddle is. Surely if 30 years before the war he had decided to be Mother Teresa, there would be no prophecy about a boy destined to kill him.

Thus the mechanics to set the prophecy in motion exist before the prophecy is even made. Namely, the people. Voldemort is evil, murdering oppressor who must be stopped. Lily and James are good people. Snape is in love with Lily. Wormtail is a turncoat, so on, and so forth.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Obviously this is all just conjecture but its still fun to talk about. I don't follow what you mean by him giving up his quest for immortality, by the time he attacked the Potters he had already created all the other Horcruxes. Voldemort could've easily dismissed the prophecy and not care.

Also I'm not so sure they would eventually have to meet since the demise of his parents basically shapes his life. Yeah he still would have fought against him and what he stood for but not in such a pivotal role. Unless you say of course its destiny no matter what and even if Harry has his parents he would face Voldemort eventually.

Well for one, we see that version of "immortality" isn't permanent.

Second, what would then cause Voldemort to stop his reign of terror? Say he just ignores the prophecy, he is still the man driven by his hatred. He isn't going to just stop killing people nor will people just let him drift into obscurity after he murdered so many.

As to Harry, losing his parents was pivotal, just like losing his mother was for Tom. But still at their base, they are the human beings they are. Harry, inherently good, Tom inherently bad. Growing up in a home with loving parents, who teach him right from wrong would of produced the same Harry imo.

 

[chaseter]

I'm betting a .gif of [blackout]Draco and Voldemort's awkward hug[/blackout] appears before the weekend's up. I'll be disappointed if it's not, tbh. That was epic.

It's the best hug that I have ever seen. It should have been in better 3D so that we all could give him a hug.

 

[Liam_H]

Well for one, we see that version of "immortality" isn't permanent.

Second, what would then cause Voldemort to stop his reign of terror? Say he just ignores the prophecy, he is still the man driven by his hatred. He isn't going to just stop killing people nor will people just let him drift into obscurity after he murdered so many.

As to Harry, losing his parents was pivotal, just like losing his mother was for Tom. But still at their base, they are the human beings they are. Harry, inherently good, Tom inherently bad. Growing up in a home with loving parents, who teach him right from wrong would of produced the same Harry imo.

But his immortality is lost because of Harry. Again, Voldemort's action sealed his fate. Yes, Voldemort would not have stopped until he became dictator of the Wizarding and Muggle world. But if he did not act the prophecy would have been voided and what other force would oppose him. Unless Dumbledore finally took action or another prophecy came along.

 

[Marvolo]

The prophecy holds no power, but it does tell what is going to happen.

Think of it this way. The only reason there is a prophecy that some boy needs to born to kill Tom Riddle is because of the monster Tom Riddle is. Surely if 30 years before the war he had decided to be Mother Teresa, there would be no prophecy about a boy destined to kill him.

Thus the mechanics to set the prophecy in motion exist before the prophecy is even made. Namely, the people. Voldemort is evil, murdering oppressor who must stop. Lily and James are good people. Snape is in love with Lily. Wormtail is a turncoat, so on, and so forth.

But no where in the prophecy does it specifically name Harry. The things it says about the chosen one match Neville, also. The only reason why the Chosen One is Harry is because Voldemort picked him. Had Voldemort picked Neville it would be about Neville. Had Voldemort picked no one their would be no chosen one. The prophecy speaks of a chosen one, but there are two people who can be that chosen one. Only one can be it, tjhough. Voldemort picked Harry. It was the result of a man making a choice based on a prediction that made Harry the chosen one. The prophecy said their would be a chosen one and gave details about the Chosen One. There were two people alive that fit the requirements beyond that it was up to Voldemort to decide who the chosen one would be. The prophecy is about Harry because Voldemort chose harry. The prophecy did not choose Harry, though. Voldemort did that through his own free will, and not some pre-destined will of a higher power. Without Voldemort's action the prophecy would have been thrown out and been void. A prophecy's power comes onlyfrom those who believe in it. Without someone to take it seriously and act on it it is meaningless and void.

 

[chaseter]

But Voldemort was always meant to pick Harry. Everything that happened, happened for a reason. Had he shot a curse at baby Neville, he may have killed him. The only reason Harry lived was because of his mother. And, as someone else mentioned, everything that happened there after lead to this moment. James and Lily, Wormtail, Snape, Dumbledore, and on and on...all lead to this moment. To say had he picked Neville everything would have lead then to his destruction I believe is false. Trelawney saw the future, she just didn't spell it out day by day, action by action, person by person.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But his immortality is lost because of Harry. Again, Voldemort's action sealed his fate. Yes, Voldemort would not have stopped until he became dictator of the Wizarding and Muggle world. But if he did not act the prophecy would have been voided and what other force would oppose him. Unless Dumbledore finally took action or another prophecy came along.

I am completely missing your point. Are you saying that if Voldemort just didn't try to kill Harry that night, the prophecy never happens and he could just enjoy being king of the world? Because the chances of Harry and the prophecy not catching up to him, seem slim at the best of times. Harry's parents wouldn't have stopped fighting or at the very least hiding. Harry would know what he is suppose to do. Someone would tell him. At which point, marked man kills evil dictator.

After all Harry didn't figure out about the horcruxes. Big D and RAB did. Hermione is the one that figures out how to destroy them.

 

[Liam_H]

But Voldemort was always meant to pick Harry. Everything that happened, happened for a reason. Had he shot a curse at baby Neville, he may have killed him. The only reason Harry lived was because of his mother. And, as someone else mentioned, everything that happened there after lead to this moment. James and Lily, Wormtail, Snape, Dumbledore, and on and on...all lead to this moment. To say had he picked Neville everything would have lead then to his destruction I believe is false. Trelawney saw the future, she just didn't spell it out day by day, action by action, person by person.

But the argument is that the choice by Voldemort sealed his fate. He could've chosen Neville to kill or done nothing at all. He acted believing he had no choice when in fact he was just causing his own downfall.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Movie was amazing. Not as emotional as the book in my opinion.

On a side note. I don't know if any of you guys in NYC went to the AMC IMAX theater at the Lincoln Center but holy ****. I never been to a movie where a lot of people cried. I figured it would happen during this movie but the people there were like screaming as if a love one got killed. So over dramatic. It kinda ruined some scenes for me cause I thought that was more funny than whatever was going on on screen.

 

[chaseter]

But the argument is that the choice by Voldemort sealed his fate. He could've chosen Neville to kill or done nothing at all. He acted believing he had no choice when in fact he was just causing his own downfall.

It did seal his fate and he was always going to pick Harry. He was never going to pick Neville or there would have been no prophecy in the first place.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't know if this will help this debate at all, but here is Rowling's explanation of the prophecy in her own words, from her official website:

Neville was born on the 30th of July, the day before Harry, so he too was born 'as the seventh month dies'. His parents, who were both famous Aurors, had 'thrice defied' Voldemort, just as Lily and James had. Voldemort was therefore presented with the choice of two baby boys to whom the prophecy might apply. However, he did not entirely realise what the implications of attacking them might be, because he had not heard the entire prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'He [the eavesdropper] only heard the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.'

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One – to give him tools no other wizard possessed – the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

So what would have happened if Voldemort had decided that the pure-blood, not the half-blood, was the bigger threat? What would have happened if he had attacked Neville instead? Harry wonders this during the course of 'Half-Blood Prince' and concludes, rightly, that the answer hinges on whether or not one of Neville's parents would have been able, or prepared, to die for their son in the way that Lily died for Harry. If they hadn't, Neville would have been killed outright. Had Frank or Alice thrown themselves in front of Neville, however, the killing curse would have rebounded just as it did in Harry's case, and Neville would have been the one who survived with the lightning scar. What would this have meant? Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

 

[Liam_H]

I am completely missing your point. Are you saying that if Voldemort just didn't try to kill Harry that night, the prophecy never happens and he could just enjoy being king of the world? Because the chances of Harry and the prophecy not catching up to him, seem slim at the best of times. Harry's parents wouldn't have stopped fighting or at the very least hiding. Harry would know what he is suppose to do. Someone would tell him. At which point, marked man kills evil dictator.

After all Harry didn't figure out about the horcruxes. Big D and RAB did. Hermione is the one that figures out how to destroy them.

When you say marked do you mean physically marked as in Harry's scar. Or marked in the sense that the prophecy foretold it. Voldemort gave Harry the power to kill him by giving him a part of his soul so he would survive the killing curse again. So if he never attacked him would Harry eventually just become another Dumbledore and then take out Voldemort? Because the death of the Potters is what started the events that led to destroying the Horcruxes and eventually Harry controlling the elder wand. So if no action was taken wouldn't it be safe to assume Voldemort continues on with the prophecy being useless.

Yes the horcruxes were figured out by Dumbledore but Harry takes on the quest to destroy them with a lot of help.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But no where in the prophecy does it specifically name Harry. The things it says about the chosen one match Neville, also. The only reason why the Chosen One is Harry is because Voldemort picked him. Had Voldemort picked Neville it would be about Neville. Had Voldemort picked no one their would be no chosen one. The prophecy speaks of a chosen one, but there are two people who can be that chosen one. Only one can be it, tjhough. Voldemort picked Harry. It was the result of a man making a choice based on a prediction that made Harry the chosen one. The prophecy said their would be a chosen one and gave details about the Chosen One. There were two people alive that fit the requirements beyond that it was up to Voldemort to decide who the chosen one would be. The prophecy is about Harry because Voldemort chose harry. The prophecy did not choose Harry, though. Voldemort did that through his own free will, and not some pre-destined will of a higher power. Without Voldemort's action the prophecy would have been thrown out and been void. A prophecy's power comes onlyfrom those who believe in it. Without someone to take it seriously and act on it it is meaningless and void.

It doesn't have to name the person. Just like Anakin is never named, nor is Paul Atreides.

And no, it doesn't say "the chosen one will be picked". It says

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies ..."

There is a clear narrative there. There are not two possible candidates, just the one. THE ONE. He is already approaching, there is no detour. It doesn't say Voldy "may" mark him. It says he "will" mark him.

And why is this? Because everything done sets it in motion.

But Voldemort was always meant to pick Harry. Everything that happened, happened for a reason. Had he shot a curse at baby Neville, he may have killed him. The only reason Harry lived was because of his mother. And, as someone else mentioned, everything that happened there after lead to this moment. James and Lily, Wormtail, Snape, Dumbledore, and on and on...all lead to this moment. To say had he picked Neville everything would have lead then to his destruction I believe is false. Trelawney saw the future, she just didn't spell it out day by day, action by action, person by person.

Exactly.