The Dark Knight Has Nolan given us "Ultimate" Batman?

Chris Wallace

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By this I mean, I see a little bit of similarity between Nolan's approach to Batman and the "Ultimate" approach to many of Marvel's characters. We get a similar basic story but re-tooled to appeal to modern sensibilities and come off somewhat more believable in the real world. Less of the costumes and bizarre tech, (I mainly mean the villains here) more explanations of how and why.
Thoughts?
 
I'm still a supporter of the idea that with both Nolan's Batman and the Ultimate stuff, the more they try to explain it to make it believable, the less believable it becomes.
 
Ummmm no :huh:

There's nothing more believable overall in the Ultimate comics. Have you read Ultimate Spider-Man, for example? In fact it's got more far fetched stuff than 616.

For example, Norman Osborn isn't a strength enhanced psycho who wears a Goblin costume. He actually turns into a Goblin monster. Ditto with the Hobgoblin.

Doc Ock doesn't actually control the tentacles fused to his body with his mind. He's got Magneto type powers that actually control the metal.

Carnage is a mindless entity that sucks the life force out of people, instead of being a psycho serial killer in a symbiote suit. Then some of the villains are essentially the same. The Lizard, Sandman, Vulture etc are not very different.

So no, I don't think Nolan has not given us Ultimate Batman. If he had, there'd be more outrageous stuff. I think you're simply confusing a mature approach to Batman with the horrible Ultimate line.
 
Ultimate Avengers is probably closer to what I'm talking about than Ultimate Spider-Man. The least fantastical thing in Ultimate Spider-Man is Shocker.
 
Ultimate Avengers is probably closer to what I'm talking about than Ultimate Spider-Man.

You'll have to be more specific then when you say 'Ultimate' because that's an umbrella heading for several titles.

So please explain/cite some examples in Ultimate Avengers that makes you think it's similar to Nolan's style with Batman.
 
That's hard to do, other than the approach to costumes. I meant moreso in spirit, in that we got such a radical departure from the classic comics. JOker wears makeup rather than having bleached skin. Ra's al Ghul isn't immortal. Two-Face went on a vendetta rather than becoming a master criminal. All this to appeal to real world sensibilities. That is what I mean. Not that he did the exact same thing that Bendis & Millar did. (God, no. I don't like that line any more than you do. Trust.) But rather that he dithced the more familiar conventions for the 21st century.
 
That's hard to do, other than the approach to costumes.

Well, one could argue that with a lot of comic book movies. Because you're a fellow Spidey fan, I'll use Raimi's movies as an analogy.

Comic Goblin wears green spandex, purple elf boots, and a purple nightcap. Raimi made it more real by giving him a green armor type suit. Fans hated it, but it was more believable than the comic book costume.

None of Doc Ock's various costumes from the comics were used. Not even the slick armani suit. He was given a simple trenchcoat. Simple, more believable, but looked great. The A.I. in the arms is also very modernized for this day and age. His comic ones never had such a thing.

Harry wasn't even a Goblin. He wore some black outfit and used a green hoverboard thing. Not terrible, but not very interesting to look at. But more believable than his Goblin costume in the comics.

I meant moreso in spirit, in that we got such a radical departure from the classic comics. JOker wears makeup rather than having bleached skin. Ra's al Ghul isn't immortal. Two-Face went on a vendetta rather than becoming a master criminal.

Again, I could say the same about the Spidey movies. Doc Ock was a misguided soul trying to complete his life's work, rather than being an evil criminal mastermind with aspirations for taking over the city, or even the world. Green Goblin was simply a guy trying to save his company from greedy board members who try to boot him out, and developed a fixation with Spider-Man, instead of being a criminal mastermind who tries to take over the City underworld.
Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer, and a desperate father stealing money for a sick daughter, instead of being a hardened criminal.

The only one I won't throw in the mix is Venom, because I think Raimi actually improved on him character wise. But basically all of the villains were watered down versions of their comic book counterparts, to be made more believable, and sympathetic.

All this to appeal to real world sensibilities. That is what I mean. Not that he did the exact same thing that Bendis & Millar did. (God, no. I don't like that line any more than you do. Trust.) But rather that he dithced the more familiar conventions for the 21st century.

I see what you're saying, but I say again that I think you're mistaking a mature approach to Batman with what the Ultimate line does, which is deliberately being different from the regular line of comics, otherwise what is the point of having the Ultimate line if they just repeat what 616 does? You might as well stick to 616.

Incidentally the Ultimate line was conceived because publisher Bill Jemas wanted to reinvent the Marvel Universe because he felt that, with over 40 years of back-story, it had become inaccessible to new readers, and he wanted to start with a reinvented Spider-Man.
 
Maybe I'm thinking more of what "Ultimate" (notice I always put it in quotes?) tried to do rather than what it actually did. It tried to reinvent the characters for the new age and instead it butchered them. I think if the "Ultimate" books were good you would be more receptive to my analogy.
 
Maybe I'm thinking more of what "Ultimate" (notice I always put it in quotes?) tried to do rather than what it actually did. It tried to reinvent the characters for the new age and instead it butchered them. I think if the "Ultimate" books were good you would be more receptive to my analogy.

Actually the only Ultimate book I've read is Spider-Man. So when you initially said Ultimate Batman because it's being made more realistic, I couldn't fathom that train of thought. Then you got more specific and said Ultimate Avengers, that's why I asked for some examples because I've never read it.

But yes, I don't care much for Ultimate Spider-Man for many reasons.
 
So you admit your responses were colored by your distaste for that series.
 
So you admit your responses were colored by your distaste for that series.

Not at all. Re-read my first post. My responses were based on your claim that Ultimate makes it all more "real", which Ultimate Spider-Man certainly did not. Quite the opposite with most characters, like the ones I listed above.
 
Point well taken. But I also agree with Ferrett, that trying to make it "more real" ends up making it less believable.
 
I actually didn't mind the "Ultimates" series or at least the first couple of runs. I read Ultimate Spiderman for awhile. I felt they tried to cram too much too fast over too short a time period. I can't see it lasting for long. After awhile, they'll have to come with original story lines and that would be the real challenge. Hated the Hulk/Green Goblin but did like their take on the origin of Venom, rather then the whole alien from other world story. Not saying it was better, just I enjoyed it equally as well.
I did take Chris's intention to mean that Nolan was making an "Ultimate Batman" whereas much as possible, characters would be less cartoony..no toxic exposures or super chemicals to change people or lazurus pits...which I could have seen happen in the earlier series of the films.
I think in the end though, Nolan just wanted to take the characters back to their roots.
 
Characters like Batman being made to be more contemporary to the times has been done way before Ultimate. It's simply an age-old comic book trend that the movies followed in order to necessarily portray the type of world that fit the context of the story. Hell, that's actually how some of Marvel's characters were born - as veiled responses to the 60's renegade movement and such.
 

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