HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - Part 13

[SpideyFan866]

How can you not like someone for being honourable and trying to do what's right?

Naive yes, but that doesn't mean unlikeable. I hate this attitude that if someone isn't as cut throat as the rest then they somehow deserve to be ****ed over.

Trying to do what's right is fine.

But what's right and honorable is not always the same as what should be done, especially when you have to consider the well being of your family.

Ned didn't do what should've been done, and his family suffered for it.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

I dont like him either. He made dumb decisions in the face of good council and lit a match over an open powder keg that led to a war that killed thousands. He was an honorable fool. The picture below sums it up:

Good council? Who was giving him good council? Littlefinger was baiting him all along. Pycelle is a Lannister spy. Renly and Stannis didn't help him. Varys never went out of his way to help him and sowing dissent has been part of his plan.

A civil war was inevitable after Robert died since Stannis knew the truth of Cersei's children and Renly would have tired a power-grab anyway.

 

[TheFuture]

I dont like him either. He made dumb decisions in the face of good council for the sake of honor and lit a match over an open powder keg that led to a war that killed thousands. He was an honorable fool. The picture below sums it up:

Joffrey was the heir to the throne, whatever war that Ned may have started by informing Stannis of the truth would have paled in comparison to the countless wars and misery that little psychopath would cause. Ned had a chance to prevent that and he failed, mainly because he put his trust in a man that he thought was close to his wife and who would "do right" by her family. He had no obvious reason to think Littlefinger would betray him.

Again, they're the actions of a naive man, not an unlikeable one.

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Joffrey was the heir to the throne, whatever war that Ned may have started by informing Stannis of the truth would have paled in comparison to the countless wars and misery that little psychopath would cause. Ned had a chance to prevent that and he failed, mainly because he put his trust in a man that he thought was close to his wife and who would "do right" by her family. He had no obvious reason to think Littlefinger would betray him.

Again, they're the actions of a naive man, not an unlikeable one.

Stannis already knew and was preparing to go to war once Robert died.

 

[Marvolo]

Good council? Who was giving him good council? Littlefinger was baiting him all along. Pycelle is a Lannister spy. Renly and Stannis didn't help him. Varys never went out of his way to help him and sowing dissent has been part of his plan.

A civil war was inevitable after Robert died since Stannis knew the truth of Cersei's children and Renly would have tired a power-grab anyway.

Varys and Renly both tried to save him. If he'd listened to Renly the North wouldnt be in ruins because he would have gotten out of King's Landing and Robb would have never had a reason to rebel. But that wasnt even the first dumb decision he made. Lets go back to the mother of all dumb decisions.

If he hadnt been so damned honerable and told Cersei he knew her secret he could have stopped the whole thing. He had proof Joffrey wasnt the heir to the throne. What does he do? Goes and tells the one person who he is about to ruin. That is beyond Potpie stupid.

So lets review what should have happened. What a smart man would have done. Ned says to hell with honor, he takes all his proof and doesnt tell a soul about it. He takes his family back to the North. He calls up Stannis. "Yo Stan Ive got something you should see." Stan rides North and they have a chat. Decide a proper legal and smart course of action to depose Joffrey. The North and Stan and whoever else finds the evidence credible take the throne. Yes, there would have been some fighting, but nothing at all like the situation Westeros is currently in.

Instead Ned thought about his honor, and got himself killed which caused Robb to rebel against the South and seek revenge, Renly to rebel against Joffrey and Stannis, Stannis to rebel against everybody, and the Lannister's to retain power.

There is no positive way to spin it. Ned's honor got himself killed and left the realm in a much more fragile state. Ned is a dumbass. Plain and simple.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I don't think I ever liked Ned.

I don't think I ever liked Catelyn and Robb either.


Seriously, ever decision they made was irrational and crass, and led to the fall of Winterfell and the current state of the surviving Starks.

Ned could've had every Lannister killed by now, but ya know. Honor.

Spoiler

Catelyn had the balls to start accusing Lannisters of attempted murder and started capturing them, pissing off Cersei and Tywin.

And Robb, like the jackass he is, spreads the news that Jamie and Cersei are having an incestuous relationship. Not inherently bad, but it pissed off Tywin. And because of that, his sister was forced to marry Tyrion.

And let's not forget! Robb sending Theon to the Iron Islands, and then breaking his marriage vows!

That turned out well for everyone, didn't it?.

Really? Ned and Robb, too? I thought they were positioned rather well as likable characters.

I liked Cat, but I understood why so many didn't. Really, she made the major mistakes that led to the downfall of the Starks. Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion was a major mistake. Forget that it would piss off Cersei and Tywin, but it would mean that Ned, Arya, and Sansa would be trapped in Kings Landing.

And ontop of doing an already stupid thing, she finds herself in a position where her sister lets him go. So, she essentially started a war and watched her greatest bargaining chip waddle (that's how GRMM describes Tyrion walking, isn't it?) out the door.

And then there's the thing with Jaime...

I feel like the poor choices made by Ned can be defended, as the ones made by Robb. But...for the life of me, I cannot think of solid ways to defend Catelyn's bad decisions.

As for a Game of Thrones movie...I think the only way it can work is to be not cover what the show has. Doing the the end of the series as a movie, in theaters, wouldn't work. You have to tie the bow on series on the series. It'd have to be a one off thing, or something before or after.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dont like him either. He made dumb decisions in the face of good council for the sake of honor and lit a match over an open powder keg that led to a war that killed thousands. He was an honorable fool. The picture below sums it up:

Wasn't it really Cat, who started the war though?

And really, for Ned, it wasn't just honor, though. He wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. Namely, dead children. He seemed to have some kind of PTSD from Robert's rebellion because of the dead Targaryen children. I think trying to avoid it was right. He just went about it the wrong way. Good conscience played a major role. Atleast, that was what led to his worst mistake, trying to scare Cersi out of King's Landing.

Again, trying to scare off Cersi was a horrible decision that ultimately brought about his end. But, I can understand why he did it. I keep harking back to Cat, but I'm still having a hard time trying to justify her mistakes. Didn't seem honorable, right, good conscience...just bad reflexes, I guess? I don't know.

 

[Iceman]

Ned knows as much as anyone else that he's terrible at politics and likely to make dumb political decisions in that environment. I don't see why people would dislike him intensely for it rather than just be frustrated that he wasn't more capable. Yes he was dumb, very dumb even. I'm sure while on his way there, he thought he would end up getting himself killed in King's Landing through one of his own dumb mistakes & Cat probably expected the same. Is it that easy to suddenly start being very clever in that environment against those who have lived in it for years and become masters at it?

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Varys and Renly both tried to save him. If he'd listened to Renly the North wouldnt be in ruins because he would have gotten out of King's Landing and Robb would have never had a reason to rebel. But that wasnt even the first dumb decision he made. Lets go back to the mother of all dumb decisions.

Renly's plan was to have a coup and seize the throne, he ran away with Loras after Ned turned this down. If he went along, he would still be in King's Landing, just holding Cersei and her children hostage.

If he hadnt been so damned honerable and told Cersei he knew her secret he could have stopped the whole thing. He had proof Joffrey wasnt the heir to the throne. What does he do? Goes and tells the one person who he is about to ruin. That is beyond Potpie stupid.

She already knew he knew because of Pycelle.

So lets review what should have happened. What a smart man would have done. Ned says to hell with honor, he takes all his proof and doesnt tell a soul about it. He takes his family back to the North. He calls up Stannis. "Yo Stan Ive got something you should see." Stan rides North and they have a chat. Decide a proper legal and smart course of action to depose Joffrey. The North and Stan and whoever else finds the evidence credible take the throne. Yes, there would have been some fighting, but nothing at all like the situation Westeros is currently in.

No, it would have been nearly the exact same situation. The only difference is Robb wouldn't be claiming to secede. Maybe Renly thinks twice about fighting Stannis if Ned is supporting him (assuming Ned goes to war for Stannis), but he's still arrogant enough to not care and go ahead with it to be king anyway.

Instead Ned thought about his honor, and got himself killed which caused Robb to rebel against the South and seek revenge, Renly to rebel against Joffrey and Stannis, Stannis to rebel against everybody, and the Lannister's to retain power.

Other than Robb's rebellion, all of that would have happened if Ned had survived. Everyone was just waiting for Robert to die.

There is no positive way to spin it. Ned's honor got himself killed and left the realm in a much more fragile state. Ned is a dumbass. Plain and simple.

Everything in the South that has happened so far was inevitable. The only exception is that the Red Wedding would not have happened, but that was a consequence of Robb's actions. I think the only place where Ned surviving would have made a difference is if he had been sent to the Wall. Jon may not have gone off with Qhorin Halfhand and been a double-agent.

 

[Iceman]

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/03/20/game-of-thrones-pedro-pascal/

Pedro Pascal says Season 4 was spoiled for him with his own audition. Haha.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Other than Robb's rebellion, all of that would have happened if Ned had survived. Everyone was just waiting for Robert to die.


Everything in the South that has happened so far was inevitable. The only exception is that the Red Wedding would not have happened, but that was a consequence of Robb's actions. I think the only place where Ned surviving would have made a difference is if he had been sent to the Wall. Jon may not have gone off with Qhorin Halfhand and been a double-agent.

There's actually a FanFiction called "Ned Stark Lives" which covers what would've happened if Ned "survived" his trial. It's actually pretty nicely written, with POV characters and a ver GRRM-ish style of writing. It starts that Varys hears that Littlefinger 'suggested' joffrey to kill Ned and Varys poisones Joffrey (only stomach-ache) in order for him not to be in the trial.

If you like Fan Fictions, you should check it out. If you don't, check it out all the same because you may like it.


Well,,it seems i'm the writer and im advertising it lol

 

[Reek]

 

[Marvolo]

Renly's plan was to have a coup and seize the throne, he ran away with Loras after Ned turned this down. If he went along, he would still be in King's Landing, just holding Cersei and her children hostage.


She already knew he knew because of Pycelle.


No, it would have been nearly the exact same situation. The only difference is Robb wouldn't be claiming to secede. Maybe Renly thinks twice about fighting Stannis if Ned is supporting him (assuming Ned goes to war for Stannis), but he's still arrogant enough to not care and go ahead with it to be king anyway.


Other than Robb's rebellion, all of that would have happened if Ned had survived. Everyone was just waiting for Robert to die.


Everything in the South that has happened so far was inevitable. The only exception is that the Red Wedding would not have happened, but that was a consequence of Robb's actions. I think the only place where Ned surviving would have made a difference is if he had been sent to the Wall. Jon may not have gone off with Qhorin Halfhand and been a double-agent.

Sorry, but I disagree. Ned created a cluster**** by telling Cersei and its because he told Cersei of his plan to out her that everything went so horribly fubar. Not telling her would have made things infinitely better.

Stannis would have had the backing of the North, the Greyjoys wouldnt have dared rebell against the North if Ned was still alive, which means no burnt winterfell, and Ned would have called them to arms and they would have been bound to answer. Renly only rebelled against Stannis cause he knew the Ned was dead the minute he refused to flee with Renly for honor's sake and without Ned around there was no one to talk Renly out of his rebellion. If Ned had went with him Ned could have turned him to Stannis's side so then you have Stannis, Ned, and Renly united. Some factions joined Tywin only because the North collapsed. Those factions wouldnt have joined Tywin. Dorne would havejoined Ned and conpany to get revenge for Elia. Essentially you'd have the majority of the realm turned on the Lannisters. There was also the bastards and evidence to prove Joffrey wasnt king that was all destroyed by the Lannisters after Ned told Cersei. Ned screwed all that up by warning Cersei.

And, yes, this is all speculation. None of us can know what really would have happened, but I do know with 100% certainty that of the two choices: telling Cersei he's about to destroy her world and possibly her family's future and not telling her - not telling her is the better of the two choices. The fact Ned didnt realize this or did and just ignored this logic is reason enough to hate him. That kind of stupidity is inexcusable regardless of what may or may not have happened.

The fact he risked the entire realm's future to also maintain his own honor. That makes him a self centered prideful bastard on top of being an inexcusable dumbass.

 

[DACrowe]

Really? Ned and Robb, too? I thought they were positioned rather well as likable characters.

I liked Cat, but I understood why so many didn't.

Because she's a woman.

...Seriously, because she was mean to Jon Snow. That really is it....and she's a woman.

Really, she made the major mistakes that led to the downfall of the Starks.

I must have missed the part where Catelyn warned Cersei with enough time that she could murder Robert and destroy his evidence of the crime. Or that time that she convinced Robb to forsake his marriage vows to the Freys, leading to their betrayal and his death.

Look, I like Ned and Robb quite a bit as characters. And Cat made mistake. But this internet revisionism of her being responsible for the Stark family's fall has always struck me as bizarre. Robb and Ned dug their own graves.

Catelyn imprisoning Tyrion was a major mistake. Forget that it would piss off Cersei and Tywin, but it would mean that Ned, Arya, and Sansa would be trapped in Kings Landing.

And ontop of doing an already stupid thing, she finds herself in a position where her sister lets him go. So, she essentially started a war and watched her greatest bargaining chip waddle (that's how GRMM describes Tyrion walking, isn't it?) out the door.

Yet, the war was thwarted by Robert well enough. And at the end of the day, while Tyrion was innocent, the Lannisters (Jaime, Cersei, and [blackout]Joffrey with the knife[/blackout]) did try to kill her son. And if Ned hadn't gone to Cersei, Robert wouldn't have died, creating this power vacuum. Instead Cersei and Jaime, as well as their children, would have been hanged as traitors and Tywin would have to go to war with the six other kingdoms if he objected.

And then there's the thing with Jaime...

Who did that hurt though, really? If she hadn't freed Jaime Lannister, Karstark would have killed him in his cell, just as he did those distant Lannister boy cousins. In which case, Robb would have still executed him and still lost the Karstarks, and the Freys would still have betrayed him for the marriage slight. And if Karstark killed the Kingslayer, rest assured that Cersei would have immediately taken Sansa Stark's head. So, Cat's decision to free Jaime, while poor war strategy, ultimately did not precipitate any of the causes that led to Robb's downfall. In fact, it saved her daughter's life. So, in a sense, it was well played if by accident.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Guys I am getting caught up with season 3. I'll be watching it all before next season. I'm on episode 4 now.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I love Ned. What he has instilled in his children will save the world. Plus two new tv spots.

[YT]s2Gzn9-B7tw[/YT]

[YT]v2VoOb02ayI[/YT]

 

[Ezio Auditore]

cool ads


so Jon vs That Guy Who Killed Craster is about to happen

and that Cersei scene in the second ad can be really spoilery

 

[Roose Bolton]

Well, it's about time that they showed Mance.

 

[Naked Shia]

Ned may have made poor choices, but he was a person of heart. Telling Cersei was showing mercy to a mother, because he is a caring person. His only mistake was to show heart in a land where being good only lead you to get stabbed or beheaded. Now imagine if Peter Parker had been made hand of the king instead of Ned, what would have he done? Almost the same thing. But his spidersense would have help him to evade the spear attack.

 

[Victarion]

In the second teaser, right before it cuts to the white walker, you can see something standing in the forest. A wight?

 

[Roose Bolton]

It's either reused footage of that little girl Wight or it's Leaf.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

Does anyone knows if Blackfish or Edmure will be appearing this season?

 

[Roose Bolton]

I want to say, No?

 

[CaptainCanada]

I believe Tobias Menzies confirmed he wasn't appearing, and I don't believe there's been any word of Clive Russell. They don't really have any story in the period this is looking to cover, so it's not surprising (though it will be somewhat awkward pacing when they do show up in season 5, assuming they keep that).

There's a poster in this Westeros.org thread (beginning at #226) who has seen the first few episodes (or claims to have) and has answered a number of questions about them.

There's one change mentioned that I suspect some Jaime fans won't be thrilled by, and my enthusiasm for Sansa's story this year is pretty much deflated based on another (one that I had apprehended based on the spoilers from episode 1 from other sources).

 

[Hyde]

I think the only outright stupid decisions both Robb and Ned made were marrying Talisa over the Frey girl and telling Cersei that he knew Joffrey was a bastard. Other than that all their decisions made sense.

Because the world of A Song of Ice and Fire is basically a lot of wish fulfilment - the ability to **** anyone you want, power, backstabbing, easy to murder etc - it feels like most fans sit back and say that they would totally have done the opposite to Ned's decisions, but really they wouldn't.

Example - you are tasked with arranging the murder of a 13 year old girl on the other half of the world who is technically innocent. Do you do it? No, of course you don't. No one would agree to assassinate a little girl unless they were either insane or... insane.

Another - an old friend and father figure to you has died, and you later learn that he was possibly murdered by the rulers of you and all the kingdoms.. You are also presented with the offer to go and work there and take the position that your deceased father figure once held. Do you accept and reveal the true cause of his death and bring down those who killed him, or sit hundreds of miles away in your castle with a thumb up your ass?

Again, you would choose the first option.