Justice League Henry Cavill IS Clark Kent/Superman - - - - - - - - Part 17

[_Superman_]

How did we get here

A better picture would be when him and Lois are smiling and talking in that movie or in BvS.

 

[Micromind]

How did we get here

First pic: High Contrast, shot on Film, shot on Location (outdoors), No CGI, Real DoP behind the camera.


Second pic: Low Contrast, shot on Digital, Shot inside Sound-stages, CGI background and CGI mouth, Assistant DoP behind the Camera.

 

[Mandon Knight]

1st pic - care, passion, professionalism, effort, beauty, happy committed cast & crew.

2nd pic - Executives playing at film making, placing the $ before the product, zero understanding, management with an agenda, butchery with a knife to the degree of asking Monet to use a crayon and come up with the same level of quality.

 

[Herolee10]

On another note, I just watched the animated "Death of Superman" movie again and it just reminded me on how the DCEU really wasted such a good storyline by having adapted it BEFORE the creation of the Justice League.

I don't know about anyone else but the film really proved to me that the storyline works best when Superman dies while the entire Justice League is ALREADY present, having all been defeated prior to Superman's arrival since one of the selling tragic points was that the league weren't able to make a comeback in time to help Superman before he lost his life. Seeing all of their reactions to their fallen comrade/leader really helps milk out all of the emotions that the scene requires.

Not to mention, I loved how the animated film showed the reaction of every human being across the globe upon seeing Superman die, especially when he had already been embraced by the people of Earth which wasn't the case for the character in BvS.

 

[misslane38]

On another note, I just watched the animated "Death of Superman" movie again and it just reminded me on how the DCEU really wasted such a good storyline by having adapted it BEFORE the creation of the Justice League.

I don't know about anyone else but the film really proved to me that the storyline works best when Superman dies while the entire Justice League is ALREADY present, having all been defeated prior to Superman's arrival since one of the selling tragic points was that the league weren't able to make a comeback in time to help Superman before he lost his life. Seeing all of their reactions to their fallen comrade/leader really helps milk out all of the emotions that the scene requires.

Not to mention, I loved how the animated film showed the reaction of every human being across the globe upon seeing Superman die, especially when he had already been embraced by the people of Earth which wasn't the case for the character in BvS.

I felt the opposite. In BvS, Superman's death has mythical, philosophical, and personal meaning. Like DoS, Lois and Martha mourn Clark's death, but there's also the fact that Superman's death has created a paradigm shift for humanity and for other heroes like Bruce and Diana. It is a death that has meaning beyond grief. I feel the empathetic emotions through Lois and Martha while feeling the personal emotions through humanity, which is elegantly juxtaposed in the three memorial services in the film: one for loved ones, one for allies, and one for humanity itself. Superman's death is the catalyst for humanity's embrace. The ending of BvS, and Superman's death, is much more powerful to me because its defining element: grace. It also has weight where the JL is concerned. Instead of being the one left standing, he is the one whose death inspires the new age of heroes.

 

[GothamBat]

Well said misslane. Although we have been recycling these same talking points a lot huh?

The deja vu is real.

 

[heatvision38]

I felt the opposite. In BvS, Superman's death has mythical, philosophical, and personal meaning. Like DoS, Lois and Martha mourn Clark's death, but there's also the fact that Superman's death has created a paradigm shift for humanity and for other heroes like Bruce and Diana. It is a death that has meaning beyond grief. I feel the empathetic emotions through Lois and Martha while feeling the personal emotions through humanity, which is elegantly juxtaposed in the three memorial services in the film: one for loved ones, one for allies, and one for humanity itself. Superman's death is the catalyst for humanity's embrace. The ending of BvS, and Superman's death, is much more powerful to me because its defining element: grace. It also has weight where the JL is concerned. Instead of being the one left standing, he is the one whose death inspires the new age of heroes.

Yeah. Both ways work, so a person can have a preference for one over the other or like both. In this universe, I like the idea of Superman being the genesis for this new world of metahumans and heroes and his death sparking this change in Batman/Paul and the furthering of the mission by the other apostles (unfortunately, this never really got explored in JL other than WW's "I'm a believer" line early in the movie, and Batman trying to recruit the others, but even with Batman, it was mostly very surfacy and more plot focused).

Btw, even in the original DOS story line, the OG Justice League wasn't involved. It was mainly the Justice League International: Guy, Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, some weird, human form of Martian Manhunter going under a different name (never knew what that story was about), Maxima, and maybe a few others. But we did get the original JLers for Funeral for a Friend.

 

[Wheels]

The fact Clark had to die and we never have gotten fully formed Superman in all these years will always rub me the wrong way. It's unfortunate because I like Snyder but BvS just wasn't what I wanted after Man of Steel.

 

[Aurakles]

Haven't seen the new animated film, but in the comics and the Superman: Doomsday cartoon, his death just seemed to be about how it'd be sad if he died. People loved him before he died, they loved him after, and they loved him still when he returned.
It was simply that one day the monster was so tough he died fighting it, and that was a shame.

In BVS the world had turned it's back on him, many saw him as a murder or a monster. Humanity had criticised him, accused him, made him an outcast and nearly murdered him twice in one night. Superman was forced to question whether he belonged on Earth, whether he was doing more harm than good, whether there was even such a thing as goodness in the world.
During his most trying times, he still chose to give his life for humanity.
And the worlds reaction in BVS is far greater because of this. Humanity isn't just sad that he's gone, they're ashamed of how they treated him. Superman's death converts those who didn't believe in him, turns cynics into zealots.

The world of BVS is changed greatly by Superman's death, it inspires people to be heroes, it creates the Justice League. I think that is more powerful than having a few more faces looking sad.

Again, I haven't seen the new film but I think having his death before the League is formed really works in BVS.

 

[Jekecy]

The world of BVS is changed greatly by Superman's death, it inspires people to be heroes, it creates the Justice League. I think that is more powerful than having a few more faces looking sad.

Again, I haven't seen the new film but I think having his death before the League is formed really works in BVS.

That's an oversimplification of the comic run.

While I do think on paper there is something to be appreciated with the way BvS approached the death so early on, the comic still wins by default for me simply because I actually cared when Supes passed on.

3 major CBM deaths occurred last year, several this year. All of them evoked more emotion out of me than Supes in BvS, and I don't like any of them nearly as much as I do Superman in general. I've gathered much of the general audience has felt the same way too. Personally that's such a fundamental miss for Snyder's team. It feels so wrong to have masses of people be so indifferent or lackadaisical to what happens to this character, regardless of the film exerting maximum effort in showing/telling you how big of a deal this is.

Really makes me yearn for the old days when you were excited to share your Superman fandom with others.

 

[BH/HHH]

On another note, I just watched the animated "Death of Superman" movie again and it just reminded me on how the DCEU really wasted such a good storyline by having adapted it BEFORE the creation of the Justice League.

I don't know about anyone else but the film really proved to me that the storyline works best when Superman dies while the entire Justice League is ALREADY present, having all been defeated prior to Superman's arrival since one of the selling tragic points was that the league weren't able to make a comeback in time to help Superman before he lost his life. Seeing all of their reactions to their fallen comrade/leader really helps milk out all of the emotions that the scene requires.

Not to mention, I loved how the animated film showed the reaction of every human being across the globe upon seeing Superman die, especially when he had already been embraced by the people of Earth which wasn't the case for the character in BvS.

I agree, that film made me feel the same way.

I think they should have done something like this:

Man of Steel
BvS (just a straight up Batman v Superman film which ends with them teaming up)
Suicide Squad
Batman Superman: Dawn of Justice (a Batman Superman team up film that introduces Wonder Woman in a key supporting role and Aquaman extended cameo)
Wonder Woman
Justice League (vs the White Martians)
Aquaman
The Flash
Shazam (Superman presence/cameo)
The Death of Superman
The Batman
Suicide Squad 2
Wonder Woman 2
Reign of the Supermen (Superman Returns)
Birds of Prey
Shazam 2 (Black Adam)
Justice League 2 (vs Legion of Doom)
And so on...

While I won’t go into detail here on each film (I’m working on it though and will post it in the DC Films section once done) this is just a timeline that I feel would have been better suited for both the DCEU and Superman’s character arc that leads to his death and eventual return. My eventual idea with this is it all leads to a JL3 where they take on Darkseid.

 

[Herolee10]

I felt the opposite. In BvS, Superman's death has mythical, philosophical, and personal meaning. Like DoS, Lois and Martha mourn Clark's death, but there's also the fact that Superman's death has created a paradigm shift for humanity and for other heroes like Bruce and Diana. It is a death that has meaning beyond grief. I feel the empathetic emotions through Lois and Martha while feeling the personal emotions through humanity, which is elegantly juxtaposed in the three memorial services in the film: one for loved ones, one for allies, and one for humanity itself. Superman's death is the catalyst for humanity's embrace. The ending of BvS, and Superman's death, is much more powerful to me because its defining element: grace. It also has weight where the JL is concerned. Instead of being the one left standing, he is the one whose death inspires the new age of heroes.

Haven't seen the new animated film, but in the comics and the Superman: Doomsday cartoon, his death just seemed to be about how it'd be sad if he died. People loved him before he died, they loved him after, and they loved him still when he returned.
It was simply that one day the monster was so tough he died fighting it, and that was a shame.

In BVS the world had turned it's back on him, many saw him as a murder or a monster. Humanity had criticised him, accused him, made him an outcast and nearly murdered him twice in one night. Superman was forced to question whether he belonged on Earth, whether he was doing more harm than good, whether there was even such a thing as goodness in the world.
During his most trying times, he still chose to give his life for humanity.
And the worlds reaction in BVS is far greater because of this. Humanity isn't just sad that he's gone, they're ashamed of how they treated him. Superman's death converts those who didn't believe in him, turns cynics into zealots.

The world of BVS is changed greatly by Superman's death, it inspires people to be heroes, it creates the Justice League. I think that is more powerful than having a few more faces looking sad.

Again, I haven't seen the new film but I think having his death before the League is formed really works in BVS.

I can definitely understand the potential/value in seeing a take where the world shows remorse in their treatment of Superman after he dies and how they only realize on how much he meant to them once he's already gone.

However, the biggest problem here is that "Justice League" never really dived into most of the stuff that you guys mentioned.

Diana, Barry, Arthur, and Victor weren't inspired to become heroes because of Superman's death. They all had their own reasons for being heroes. We never really saw on what Superman meant to either of them prior to his return. The only one that had been truly affected by his actions, where it affected on how they approached being a hero, was Bruce/Batman.

Plus, there was nothing to indicate in "Justice League" on how Superman's sacrifice directly led to the world being more accepting of costumed superheroes.

Heck, we never got a chance to see the world's reaction upon seeing Superman alive and well again.

So in the end, all we're left with a potential build up without a proper resolution.

 

[Herolee10]

How did we get here

Well you know something's off when he looks more natural with a beard than without one.

 

[heatvision38]

Well you know something's off when he looks more natural with a beard than without one.

Why would you do that?!?!?!

 

[idiot09]

I loved DOS(animated), and I heard a lot of people wanted the "funeral for a friend" imagery in BvS, but didnt get it...I assumed we would get it in the animated movie, but they chose not to lol

 

[RomanticPenguin]

they did it in the animated series I think

 

[heatvision38]

I can definitely understand the potential/value in seeing a take where the world shows remorse in their treatment of Superman after he dies and how they only realize on how much he meant to them once he's already gone.

However, the biggest problem here is that "Justice League" never really dived into most of the stuff that you guys mentioned.

Diana, Barry, Arthur, and Victor weren't inspired to become heroes because of Superman's death. They all had their own reasons for being heroes. We never really saw on what Superman meant to either of them prior to his return. The only one that had been truly affected by his actions, where it affected on how they approached being a hero, was Bruce/Batman.

Plus, there was nothing to indicate in "Justice League" on how Superman's sacrifice directly led to the world being more accepting of costumed superheroes.

Heck, we never got a chance to see the world's reaction upon seeing Superman alive and well again.

So in the end, all we're left with a potential build up without a proper resolution.

Very true. But that's an issue with the what was done after Snyder left, not with BvS itself.

 

[Aurakles]

I can definitely understand the potential/value in seeing a take where the world shows remorse in their treatment of Superman after he dies and how they only realize on how much he meant to them once he's already gone.

However, the biggest problem here is that "Justice League" never really dived into most of the stuff that you guys mentioned.

Diana, Barry, Arthur, and Victor weren't inspired to become heroes because of Superman's death. They all had their own reasons for being heroes. We never really saw on what Superman meant to either of them prior to his return. The only one that had been truly affected by his actions, where it affected on how they approached being a hero, was Bruce/Batman.

Plus, there was nothing to indicate in "Justice League" on how Superman's sacrifice directly led to the world being more accepting of costumed superheroes.

Heck, we never got a chance to see the world's reaction upon seeing Superman alive and well again.

So in the end, all we're left with a potential build up without a proper resolution.

Yes Justice League failed to properly follow up this idea, maybe Snyder's version would have (I'm sure it would've), maybe not. Either way, I think the fairest way to judge is to look only at BVS, sometimes it's important to step away from the cinematic universe view and look solely at the film, how does it stand on it's own?

In BVS, we see that Superman's death has changed humanity. Instead of crowds shouting "Go home" or "Burn him", they are attending his state funeral and holding a candle lit vigil.
Instead of the US government calling him dangerous they are giving him full military honours.
In Batman we see someone whose life is radically changed, from Superman's executioner to his disciple. Rather than sad that he's lost a friend, Bruce has become charged with hope. Rather than wallowing in misery, he embarks on a path of optimism.
The film ends with the "Men are still good" speech, suggesting positive change as a result of Superman's death. It's something I've never seen elsewhere; the idea that Clark's death makes things better, rather than worse. Even from the grave, he helps people.

 

[misslane38]

Yes Justice League failed to properly follow up this idea, maybe Snyder's version would have (I'm sure it would've), maybe not. Either way, I think the fairest way to judge is to look only at BVS, sometimes it's important to step away from the cinematic universe view and look solely at the film, how does it stand on it's own?

In BVS, we see that Superman's death has changed humanity. Instead of crowds shouting "Go home" or "Burn him", they are attending his state funeral and holding a candle lit vigil.
Instead of the US government calling him dangerous they are giving him full military honours.
In Batman we see someone whose life is radically changed, from Superman's executioner to his disciple. Rather than sad that he's lost a friend, Bruce has become charged with hope. Rather than wallowing in misery, he embarks on a path of optimism.
The film ends with the "Men are still good" speech, suggesting positive change as a result of Superman's death. It's something I've never seen elsewhere; the idea that Clark's death makes things better, rather than worse. Even from the grave, he helps people.

My sentiments exactly. Beautifully put.

 

[_Superman_]

Yes Justice League failed to properly follow up this idea, maybe Snyder's version would have (I'm sure it would've), maybe not. Either way, I think the fairest way to judge is to look only at BVS, sometimes it's important to step away from the cinematic universe view and look solely at the film, how does it stand on it's own?

In BVS, we see that Superman's death has changed humanity. Instead of crowds shouting "Go home" or "Burn him", they are attending his state funeral and holding a candle lit vigil.
Instead of the US government calling him dangerous they are giving him full military honours.
In Batman we see someone whose life is radically changed, from Superman's executioner to his disciple. Rather than sad that he's lost a friend, Bruce has become charged with hope. Rather than wallowing in misery, he embarks on a path of optimism.
The film ends with the "Men are still good" speech, suggesting positive change as a result of Superman's death. It's something I've never seen elsewhere; the idea that Clark's death makes things better, rather than worse. Even from the grave, he helps people.

Not to mention before WW 84 it was Superman who inspired Wonder Woman to return. However all that stuff gets overlooked.

 

[BH/HHH]

Zack Snyder's take on Superman in Man of Steel was much darker than what moviegoers were expecting and one of the most controversial moments came when the hero chose to snap General Zod's neck in order to stop the Kryptonian villain from murdering an innocent family. Now, during an interview to promote Mission: Impossible - Fallout, Henry Cavill has shared his thoughts on that.

According to the actor, the plan may have been to use that moment to create a more heroic version of Superman; unfortunately, the decision to create a DC Extended Universe brought those to a halt.

"The killing of Zod would have led to a wonderful reason why Superman never kills. Not, he never kills just because his dad said so one day. He made the decision himself because of an impossible scenario, to which he then said, ‘I don't care if it's impossible again, I'm gonna find a way to make it possible in the impossible.’" That no doubt would have sat a whole lot better with fans.

Unfortunately, Batman v Superman meant "we didn't get the opportunity to show the other side of it, the ‘I'm ready to be Superman now and I'm ready to show the world the best examples’. That's where the joy and glee comes from, and that sense of warmth from the character, which is his real superpower – he makes people believe in themselves. It was a shame because it would've been nice, and it would have been a lovely coupling with the seriousness and the depth of Man of Steel."

While Cavill made it clear that he still isn't sure whether or not he'll get the chance to play Superman again, there is one storyline he seems to be particularly keen on adapting. Describing For Tomorrow as "one of my favourite comic books," he added: "I would definitely like to tell a story like that. There's an opportunity to keep on telling Superman stories, and getting them exactly right. Showing the things like hope and joy and that wonderful power of his to make people believe in themselves."

 

[misslane38]

Zack Snyder's take on Superman in Man of Steel was much darker than what moviegoers were expecting and one of the most controversial moments came when the hero chose to snap General Zod's neck in order to stop the Kryptonian villain from murdering an innocent family. Now, during an interview to promote Mission: Impossible - Fallout, Henry Cavill has shared his thoughts on that.

According to the actor, the plan may have been to use that moment to create a more heroic version of Superman; unfortunately, the decision to create a DC Extended Universe brought those to a halt.

"The killing of Zod would have led to a wonderful reason why Superman never kills. Not, he never kills just because his dad said so one day. He made the decision himself because of an impossible scenario, to which he then said, ‘I don't care if it's impossible again, I'm gonna find a way to make it possible in the impossible.’" That no doubt would have sat a whole lot better with fans.

Unfortunately, Batman v Superman meant "we didn't get the opportunity to show the other side of it, the ‘I'm ready to be Superman now and I'm ready to show the world the best examples’. That's where the joy and glee comes from, and that sense of warmth from the character, which is his real superpower – he makes people believe in themselves. It was a shame because it would've been nice, and it would have been a lovely coupling with the seriousness and the depth of Man of Steel."

While Cavill made it clear that he still isn't sure whether or not he'll get the chance to play Superman again, there is one storyline he seems to be particularly keen on adapting. Describing For Tomorrow as "one of my favourite comic books," he added: "I would definitely like to tell a story like that. There's an opportunity to keep on telling Superman stories, and getting them exactly right. Showing the things like hope and joy and that wonderful power of his to make people believe in themselves."

Cavill's not making a whole lot of sense here. BvS does depict a scenario where Superman chooses something that seems to be the impossible: trust and reason with Batman instead of kill him like Lex wants in order to save Martha. Plus, For Tomorrow doesn't really get at the things he says he wants and values in a Superman story.

 

[valmont]

Not to mention before WW 84 it was Superman who inspired Wonder Woman to return. However all that stuff gets overlooked.

Return to what? In JL, she said she was always there, just not in public. Superman maybe helped her make her decision to step into the light, but that's it.

 

[_Superman_]

Return to what? In JL, she said she was always there, just not in public. Superman maybe helped her make her decision to step into the light, but that's it.

According to her in BvS she stopped being WW for quite some time. It was Superman that helped her come back.

 

[STARMAN]

Cavill doesn't sound as confident in MOS 2 as I had hoped. The major trade Superman update better not be another false alarm.