His webslinging still looks off

[HellOnEarth]

Hulks Jumps own Spidey's Websling.

Btw, I think it's the web that looks more off than the swing. It looks like wires not real spiderwebs.

 

[November Rain]

Thank you for all your comments.

I would like to point out this isn't a CGI bashing thread as to the quality of the shots provided.

This has more to do with what we are seeing, the context of the shot. There are certain aspects of his swinging that I feel at this stage in his career he should not be doing. I'll try and list them to get across a some sort of idea as to what i'm pointing out.

NOTE: The thread is about his swinging looking off, not that it looks terrible, it's about his swinging should at this time of being a superhero be quite flawless.


The FIRST point is this one.

1. The way spidey 'leaps' off a webline to join another one.

This is when he's at the top of his swing, he kicks forward with his legs apparenetly to gain more momentum and we have this scenes where he can't see where he's going and he's leading with his legs and it takes him a while to recover his position. He doesn't do it all the time but he still does it. I wouldn't mind if he did it in his first few swings to gain speed and momentum but he does it very often. I would prefer if he got to the top or end of his swing before gracefully letting go and carrying on.

Another member mentioned his webbing was elastic, if this is the case, then there should be no need for this body to move like that since he can play with the elasticity of his webbing to create more taut shorter webbing that would speed his swing up, or more elastic longer webbing that would slow him down.

not to mention the underlying fact that would be apparent to anyone who has ever tried to jump off a rope swing, that projecting yourself in that manner should technically give very little hight or forward momentum and if anything would add to slowing you down which you can tell from the scenes there are in isn't what is intended.

2. Spidey's two footed landings

When spidey lands on is feet after webswinging, , the cgi animation gives the impression of him jolting forward which for me personally (i know i don't speak for all of you) always looks like he's messed up his landing. Now i'm not saying he should be landing like superman did in the adventures of lois and clark (jumping in onto screen), but we know how difficult a task like such might be so why don't they animate spidey so that when he lands on his feet, he transfers that momentum into a crouched position, one where he can also used his hands to help if necessary, once the landing is complete, then he can assume an upright position.

again, on poles on or the side of buildings when he's making contact with both his hands and feet, he looks comfortable but when it's on a flat surface, he looks like he is always getting caught out.

3. his form through the air

Now alot of you make a point of saying that spidey doesn't need to have good form through the air, and that his webswinging is just a mode of transport which again is fine.

Saying this though, i feel that if he isn't in a good form, at least he should look like he's having fun doing what he's doing. but there are a lot of times when spideys legs do look like they are a dead weight (usually during the parts of the swing when he's near the bottom of his arch before they gear up for that kicky thing they do i mentioned earlier). This has to do with his form through the air and the fact he doesn't look tight. Again it's reminiscent of an amateur on an equivalent piece of gymnast, circus or outdoor adventure equipment (zip line etc).

I know it's never been brought up but weather conditions like rain, heavy winds should play a factor in spidey's real life swinging and when you are taking drag into consideration, you always want to subconciously make yourself as streamline as possible to get from A to B (as seen from the majority of people who 'fly' and swim, they always angle their bodies to provide the least drag which means legs together and the body in a tight form.

seeing spidey's legs flap around behind him (for no obvious reason, it's not like they are helping him to steer or for stabilisation), especially at that lower high speed arch paths don't cut it for me, he should be having them together reading to push forwards with them or get himself into a ball shape (again, if he's not showing off or stabilising himself for steering purposes).

gymnast train in order to get a great sense of strength and balance, these factors are already built into parker's DNA, after a few years of practice i can't see how he his swinging would not be near perfect AND second nature, as second nature as you and I are blinking, walking and breathing.

4. minor thing really but weight

this really comes down to preference but some of you like the heavier weighted spidey from the end of the second film in comparison to the one from the first one.

I will say though that spidey's weight throughout swinging in the first film was a lot more consistent with itself in comparison to it during the second film which i felt varied in every scene going from him being the lightest (pizza at the beginning), to similar to the first film (just after saving aunt may), to fairly heavy at the very end. Consistency within the same film would at least be ideal.

also weight wise, i felt that the first spidey's weight (or at least the gs acting upon him) was very similar to that of the hulk while he was jumping around i the desert and i've yet to hear a complaint about that. I'm quite surprised about people complaining about the ones i the first film (content wise apposed to CGI-wise).

now that's been done, i'll try and respond to some relevenat posts.

 

[November Rain]

But yes, absolutely. I'd love spidey's swinging to be believable in whatever sense one can believe a spider man swinging around. If it looks fake, I just know it, I'm human and I have an inate sense built in from birth of how objects move, and what you're pointing out about ways they can make it look more real might actually help. Landing on all four limbs for example is something I'd have never thought of...

I'm thinking that'd make him move more like a spider. I like when he uses all of his limbs connected to a surface when he moves. Spidey standing on his legs is just not an image I'm used to or think looks right... though I'm not saying he should never stand, but I think he moves more like a spider or cat, any animal that uses their limbs together to cling to a surface... They got it perfect again when spidey is thrown into the train and clings to the bar with both hands and feet. That looked good.

Thanks Weyseed, i think you are seeing the angle i'm coming here As long as i'm not the only one to notice how something like that could be an improvement, then it's all good.

 

[November Rain]

It's pretty simple, 99.9% of the time, if people liked the movie, they liked the effects, the haters hate the movie and in turn the effects.

If someone didn't feel the effects in SM2 were bad, I'd like to see what they feee is good. I can't imagine anything pleasing them. The effects in SM2 were virtually flawless.

that's not true, there is more to a film than effects. effects don't make or break a film. What happened to the good ol days where story telling and character development were the most important parts of telling a story

when did effects become the be all and end all in superhero based films? If i ever start to act they way you say 99.9% of people do, then that's the day i'll stop collecting comics and investing in this form of entertainment.

and again i reiterate, i'm not bashing the quallity of the effects. The effects could be flawless but if you saw spiderman flying around, you too would comment about how its not right instead of just saying 'the cgi sucked'

in a more subtle manner, that's what i'm trying to get across.

 

[dark_b]

Hulks Jumps own Spidey's Websling.

Btw, I think it's the web that looks more off than the swing. It looks like wires not real spiderwebs.

you do know how small spider webs are? have you ever seen spider webs 50 times bigger?

 

[November Rain]

yea, even his jumping ability as well.

yeah his jumping, especially unmasked seemed off.

the last time i saw spidey do a good set of jumps was when he was chasing his uncle's killer in the first film (the ones right before he started webswinging for the first time, which in my eyes is still the best webswinging sequence we've seen).

 

[November Rain]

Wow, when I thought people had run out of things to nitpick.

His swinging is has always been a hilight of the films. He is very graceful and agile it is just that he is not graceful in the simple human interpretation of it. It sounds to me you want it to look like Superman with webbing, when that isn't Spider-Man. He twists, he turns and lands and poses in obscure angles. And the films I think catpure this. Those two examples you have I think nail the swinging.

Now we don't get the great curves and body movements freeze framed in comic book pages but the fluidity works. If he was perfect and moved like a human body it would look even more fake despite what some of the constant nitpickers say (and that is not eferring to you November Rain).

Oh well.

I don't mind if you do see me as a nit-picker DaCrowe and i don't mean that with any malice.

I do tend to see things in a different light than others, coming to the hype has made the critical aspects of my love for comics and their movies grow tenfold and i feel that when one of the characters i root for is being shown to the world for all to see that he is represented with pride and dignity.

Just kinda like how showing yourself and your belonging in their best light.

The webswinging in spidey is fine but i don't think it's his best light, people can use scapegoats of aspects of realism and so forth but we see circus performers and gymnast swinging through the air (albeit at a lowe risks and speeds but then it becomes a relative aspect for spidey who is more agile and has a greater strength), and we've seen with animation (even 3d animation) that it's possibly to get the models to look a certain way.

I believe with tweaks, the swinging could really be out of this world and be as inspirational as seeing christopher reeves flying in superman one, a real trend setting piece of groundbreaking special effects.

Its just one of those things that if a few of my ideas were taken up, all those peeps who are saying i'm whining and not satisfied would then come back and go 'It was better this time' and that's all i'm looking for, better scenes.

 

[dos_acoustic]

I don't know how long spidey is supposed to have carried this superhero role for in this next film but I would have hoped that he would have cracked this webslinging thing...

alas, he still looks uncomfortable/unprofessional...

he still does that thing at the end of his swing where he tries to leap off for more aerial height. This is fine once in a while but it would be nice to see him reaching the top of his swing before letting go once in a while, it's rarely done, especially outside of a facial closeup.

also judging from his clip, he still lands incredibly uncomfortable with his body jolting forward and his legs aren't together when he webslings.

Now spidey is supposed to have better balance and be more articulated that a leading gymnast but judging from his clips he wouldn't make any sort of state final, let alone a national or olympic competition.


I know it's not necessary for what he performs but i've always had a problem with spidey being graceful in the films, and i feel he was at his best at the end of the first film but even then, he swings as if he's still unsure of himself and his movements in the air and doesn't always land with confidence, it's still looks like it's hard work when it should be second nature.

I know it's a minor thing to moan about but i have a feeling that those swinging clips come from the last piece of the film and hence the last piece of the current franchise and it would be a shame to see it go out with a whimper instead of a bang.

I disagree. I always thought the webswinging was some of the best CGI stuff in all the movies.

 

[not_a_victim]

If you look at the animation in the original post, the fact that Spidey moves from a one-hand grip to a two-hand grip when the g-forces would be the greatest on him shows that the animators are TRYING to present it in a realistic way. I will defend them by saying that there really is not a frame of reference for this sort of thing.
Is the cgi perfect? no
Are we getting the best the studios can offer without working for two to three years on the cgi? yes.

 

[dark_b]

If you look at the animation in the original post, the fact that Spidey moves from a one-hand grip to a two-hand grip when the g-forces would be the greatest on him shows that the animators are TRYING to present it in a realistic way. I will defend them by saying that there really is not a frame of reference for this sort of thing.
Is the cgi perfect? no
Are we getting the best the studios can offer without working for two to three years on the cgi? yes.

nice post

 

[LastSunrise1981]

You kidding me? Nearly the entirety of the Doc Ock fights involve Spider-man using his wall crawling abilites. If I remember correctly he first ENCOUNTERS while hanging from the ceiling on the wall. Then they fight ON THE SIDE of a building. Then later they are fighting on a TRAIN, in which he crawls A LOT.

Spider-man's wallcrawling abilities were shown A LOT in Spider-man 2. Some were subtle most was very blatent.

You misunderstand me. The train sequence? There really wasn't enough of his wall-crawling abilities. Half of the time he was either crouched down, standing up, or briefly crawls onto the side of the train only to be knocked off of it.

Don't confuse wall-crawling with simply sticking to a particular surface.

My favorite is when he's on the ceiling after sneaking his way into Doc Ock's lair. That's how Spider-Man should crawl, that's how he should display his abilities, and I think not enough of it has been shown in this particular trilogy in my opinion. I hope we see more of it in his fights with Venom, Sandman, and Harry.

 

[DACrowe]

I wasn't calling you a constant nitpicker though I find this subject a bit nitpicky. It is just some posters will find any excuse to bash Raimi's movies (not saying you do though).

As it stands I like the swinging in the movies as I find them very fun sequences and he tends to be ver yagile and comfortable to me. He isn't landing like a gymnist but he isn't one either though.

 

[HerosOnFilm]

I'm sure you've heard this ad nauseum by now, but I think the swinging through the city is the best part of seeing Spidey onscreen. Honestly, I think the CGI folks have taken great care of capturing how his body would/should move. One of the best webswings I thought was when he saved MJ, the slight momentary pause in mid-swing while he shot another web and swayed down to the ground....just awesome and looked very realistic to me.

The one thing I think we need to see more of is wall crawling, crawling on a ceiling, up a building, etc.

 

[Sean Adisano]

I'm sure you've heard this ad nauseum by now, but I think the swinging through the city is the best part of seeing Spidey onscreen. Honestly, I think the CGI folks have taken great care of capturing how his body would/should move. One of the best webswings I thought was when he saved MJ, the slight momentary pause in mid-swing while he shot another web and swayed down to the ground....just awesome and looked very realistic to me.

The one thing I think we need to see more of is wall crawling, crawling on a ceiling, up a building, etc.

and there you have it...a PERFECT statement!

i agree 100% Hero

 

[HerosOnFilm]

You kidding me? Nearly the entirety of the Doc Ock fights involve Spider-man using his wall crawling abilites. If I remember correctly he first ENCOUNTERS while hanging from the ceiling on the wall. Then they fight ON THE SIDE of a building. Then later they are fighting on a TRAIN, in which he crawls A LOT.

Spider-man's wallcrawling abilities were shown A LOT in Spider-man 2. Some were subtle most was very blatent.

I just saw this, Weyseed, you may have already addressed this. In SM2, we see a lot of wall-STICKING abilities, but actual crawling has been seriously left out. And him wall crawling as Peter in my head doesn't count.

I think the guys do a great job of capturing his agility and web-swinging, but I want a wallcrawler too dammit! t:

 

[ultimatefan]

Not necessarily.

Creation of realistic physics in cartoons is a HUGE part of animation. You can't easily dismiss that.

the edge for cartoons though is that they have much more freedom depending on what kind of cartoon it is. If it's depicting something realistic, it'll establish certain rules about the world and break them when it's necessary to do more fantastic stuff. I'm thinking about when eyes pop out or something like that.

Oh and I'm talking about really minor things like shadows, movement of hair, blinking, breathing, elasticity of face and whatever other body parts, all of this stuff is given close scrutiny during animation. I also think the really good animation is the kind that doesn't really seem like animation. It's just natural.

Doesn´t change the fact that even in a realistic cartoon, an impossible human movement is more easily acceptable for the fact that the character isn´t a photo real human being to begin.

 

[Cmill216]

here is the scene from the end of the first film where it shows some of his best landings, on the us american flag pole and it's a good one because he makes contact with all his limbs (plus he looks less restricted in movement)

Honestly, they have YET to top this sequence, even with the advancements in CG. It looks better than pretty much every swinging shot they've done since.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

the web-slinging was one of the best cgi elements of the films, we all love the web-slinging, spdeys flips in the air then web-slinging started in spidey2, spidet1 the last shot of the fiml was amazing.

 

[animexcel]

I'd rather have the spidey movies come out now, than 20 more years for the CGI to improve.

 

[Dragon]

here is the scene from the end of the first film where it shows some of his best landings, on the us american flag pole and it's a good one because he makes contact with all his limbs (plus he looks less restricted in movement)

But the obvious difference between the flagpole landing and the one you posted first from Spidey 3 is that with the flagpole, it's a vertical surface which he naturally would land on with both hands and feet, versus the horizontal landing from Spidey 3.

The thing is, that you seem to continually compare human body mechanics to Spidey's superhuman ones, and people swinging on ropes or gymnastic bars to Spidey's elastic webline at great altitudes. You just can't compare the two. The very fact that they can't even bluescreen the world's best acrobats for Spidey tells you that they're going for something humans can't duplicate (But that's another debate).

And another point that you seem to miss is that Spidey maintaining the form you're mentioning would be visually boring. Any CG animator will tell you that in order to sell a stunt, you HAVE TO EXAGGERATE. Or the movement looks dead.

But more than that, they're expressing Spidey's POWER. He isn't just some daintly little aerial balletist. He's a superhero. He's not just graceful. He's dangerous. And also- this is freedom for Peter. he's having fun. He's letting loose. Gymnasts are wound so tight that they (especially the girls) are shattered if their foot isn't quite in position. Spidey isn't bound by such constraints.

As for the Superman comparison, again, it can't happen. Supes travels in an altogether different way. Supes flies head first, while Spidey generates his momentum by kicking his feet (which is necessary). But more than anything else- Spidey is clearly subject to gravity. Superman DEFIES GRAVITY. He's not leaping as the intro to the 50's show says. He's actually floating on air. He could walk on air if he so chose. This is how in mid-flight he can increase his speed. So his landings have nothing to do with the gravity that Spidey's does.

 

[The Kid]

Doesn´t change the fact that even in a realistic cartoon, an impossible human movement is more easily acceptable for the fact that the character isn´t a photo real human being to begin.

And I disagree. If that's the aim of the animation, to make it as realistic as possible, it WON'T break that rule unless it's for some special reason. Even then we'd detect something was wacky.

What's more, dude, we have an extremely keen sense of what looks real (or natural) and what seems extraordinary. That's indisputable.

Why is Jackie Chan even a star? Because he seems to somehow break boundaries with his phycial abilities honed over a lifetime of training.

 

[Web Slinging]

Honestly, they have YET to top this sequence, even with the advancements in CG. It looks better than pretty much every swinging shot they've done since.

I fully agree. I have few qualms with the web-swinging, apart from the pizza delivery part at the beginning of SM2. However the ending of SM1 is still easily my favorite swinging sequence out of both movies. The fluidity, the music, everything about it just makes it memorable to me. When I thought about the movie after seeing it for the first time, THAT was the part I always thought of. The awkwardness in the chase for Uncle Ben's killer was well done but nothing has captured me quite like the end of SM1 did.

 

[pointman]

Thank you november rain. I've been saying the same thing for years and naturally Raimi purists cried about it.
I agree with you on the whole swining thing. Spidey's swinging is dull. The only time it looked astonishing was at the end of the 1st movie, it was beautiful but every other time spidey swings its the same old crap. Firstly, its badly animated, looks too computer gameish and the choreography is uninspired. For goodness sake, Lord knows theres enough source material to extract ideas from but all we get is the lame swing foward, kick legs out, release from web-line and repeat. There's no variety or decent choreography, its a real dissapointment. The end swing for sm2 was disgusting, it was poor and just plain sucked. Dont get me started on that scene where spidey saves those silly kids from the speeding truck, I've seen better animation on the ps2.
This film is pure fantasy give me the fantasy of Spider-Man and not some stupid, poor substitute just because the studio thinks the general audience want to see some logistical physics.

 

[dark_b]

the last shot from the first movie is so classic like the last shot from S:TM.

 

[dark_b]

Thank you november rain. I've been saying the same thing for years and naturally Raimi purists cried about it.
I agree with you on the whole swining thing. Spidey's swinging is dull. The only time it looked astonishing was at the end of the 1st movie, it was beautiful but every other time spidey swings its the same old crap. Firstly, its badly animated, looks too computer gameish and the choreography is uninspired. For goodness sake, Lord knows theres enough source material to extract ideas from but all we get is the lame swing foward, kick legs out, release from web-line and repeat. There's no variety or decent choreography, its a real dissapointment. The end swing for sm2 was disgusting, it was poor and just plain sucked. Dont get me started on that scene where spidey saves those silly kids from the speeding truck, I've seen better animation on the ps2.
This film is pure fantasy give me the fantasy of Spider-Man and not some stupid, poor substitute just because the studio thinks the general audience want to see some logistical physics.

this was nto CGI. so it is not bad animated.