How do you feel about the Relaunch?

[8Diagrams(WU)]

I do too, and that's why I have mixed feelings about it. But Babs staying crippled while Bruce has recovered like it never happened seems unfair and sexist. Not to mention that The Killing Joke is a very stupid story. Barbara Gordon, a superheroine, is just going to open the door when she is at her father, THE POLICE COMMISSIONER'S house in GOTHAM CITY??? And then she stands there like a deer in the headlights? No way. She'd see it was Joker through the peephole in the door (not to mention that Gordon would have security cameras), give her dad the appropriate hand signals, wait for him to get outside with the shotgun, open the door when the time was right, grab the gun from Joker and stick it up his sick rapist ass and Jim would blast his thugs to bits with the shotgun. There's an example of realism for ya.



Basically the cancer in a reality like the DCU has to be like a super-cancer, harder to cure. Lex should know the cure but just like the story where he proved the existence of heaven and hell and God, he should refuse to share the information with the world because, well, he's Lex and the world doesn't matter to him. Only beating Superman does.

Yeah Killing Joke was a dumb story. Batman sharing a laugh with the joker in the end after he crippled barbara and tortured jim is just horrible characterization.

I personally hate the joker being characterized as someone who gets any type of sexual gratification. I see him as someone with a different level of sanity I guess. In Moores defense though, I heard he said the joker did not rape barbara and that he just used the naked pics to torture jim but not sure if thats legit.

 

[Kurosawa]

Yeah Killing Joke was a dumb story. Batman sharing a laugh with the joker in the end after he crippled barbara and tortured jim is just horrible characterization.

I personally hate the joker being characterized as someone who gets any type of sexual gratification. I see him as someone with a different level of sanity I guess. In Moores defense though, I heard he said the joker did not rape barbara and that he just used the naked pics to torture jim but not sure if thats legit.

To me, that's Moore trying to back away from the story because even he realized how disgusting it was. Regardless, it is degrading and misogynistic.

Moore now admits it was a bad story, but DC should have realized that before they accepted it. Of course, Alan Moore probably could have submitted his used toilet paper at the time, and DC would have printed it.

 

[HighFivingMF]

I like Killing Joke for the origin story and the confrontation at the end. Those are the first things I think of, not Batgirl getting shot in the hoo-hoo.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

To me, that's Moore trying to back away from the story because even he realized how disgusting it was. Regardless, it is degrading and misogynistic.

Moore now admits it was a bad story, but DC should have realized that before they accepted it. Of course, Alan Moore probably could have submitted his used toilet paper at the time, and DC would have printed it.

Its a pretty disturbing idea for sure. I personally dont mind violence or even a bit of gore in comics. Rape is where I draw the line though. Some writers think they are being edgy, but I personally dont pick up a comic to read about it, meaning that Im not going to be entertained by something as serious as that. Rape as a plot point = no thanks.

 

[Motown Marvel]

rape is a disgusting thing that should make a reader uncomfortable. and thats the point with the joker. the sick and twisted things he does should make others uncomfortable. if the joker did rape barbara (though its not really important whether he did or didnt, it wasn't a plot point), i dont think its for personal sexual gratification, rather just to add that extra layer to trauma to both jim and barbara.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

Im not refering to that as a plot point anywhere but wether its a plot point or simple insinuation is irrelevant: It does not make it any more acceptable. (Another example of rape would be Dr Light raping sue dibny which wasnt very pleasing either.) I dont pickup comics to read about raping and mysoginistic ideals. You may disagree of course but thats certainly not how I want to be entertained in any way or form from comics from DC.

The interpretation of the character is personal opinion of course as well and of course I respect everyones opinon on the matter. In the joker graphic novel he rapes his henchmen exwife or whatever and it didnt really add anything other than a few ackward panels. You take that out and the Joker is still raw to the reader. Rape is not the only gateway to twisted portrayal and although I understand comics are free of expression I see rape wether its a plot point or insinuation just a tad above dick and fart jokes: cheap and taking advantage of the reader for shock value.

Obviously its naive to think a world without rape could ever exist, but just because its disgusting does not mean it should be accepted. Even crazy old alan moore backpedaled on it for a reason.

If comics want to really go mainstream, rape has be delegated to very mature titles that are not in the front. I dont think well be seeing that from DC very much with the relaunch.

 

[Darthphere]

The fact that you think Alan Moore backpedaled on rape is laughable and naive. Have you read Lost Girls?

 

[Motown Marvel]

Im not refering to that as a plot point anywhere but wether its a plot point or simple insinuation is irrelevant: It does not make it any more acceptable. (Another example of rape would be Dr Light raping sue dibny which wasnt very pleasing either.) I dont pickup comics to read about raping and mysoginistic ideals. You may disagree of course but thats certainly not how I want to be entertained in any way or form from comics from DC.

The interpretation of the character is personal opinion of course as well and of course I respect everyones opinon on the matter. In the joker graphic novel he rapes his henchmen exwife or whatever and it didnt really add anything other than a few ackward panels. You take that out and the Joker is still raw to the reader. Rape is not the only gateway to twisted portrayal and although I understand comics are free of expression I see rape wether its a plot point or insinuation just a tad above dick and fart jokes: cheap and taking advantage of the reader for shock value.

Obviously its naive to think a world without rape could ever exist, but just because its disgusting does not mean it should be accepted. Even crazy old alan moore backpedaled on it for a reason.

If comics want to really go mainstream, rape has be delegated to very mature titles that are not in the front. I dont think well be seeing that from DC very much with the relaunch.

well, i dont think rape is all that wide spread in comics. yes, its stupid and cheap to use without justification. but i have no problem with it being used if its justifiable to the story. in the joker graphic novel, it didnt add anything, i agree. i found it was used rather responsibly in identity crisis. with killing joke it was left to the reader to speculate what the joker did or did not do. if you say rape was in the killing joke, its because you as the reader put it in there.

i think anything can or should be used in a story as long as its done responsibly and can be justified by the story/characters.

 

[Tron Bonne]

To me, that's Moore trying to back away from the story because even he realized how disgusting it was. Regardless, it is degrading and misogynistic.

Moore now admits it was a bad story, but DC should have realized that before they accepted it. Of course, Alan Moore probably could have submitted his used toilet paper at the time, and DC would have printed it.

Did Moore admit it was a bad story? I always knew he thought the praise it got was overblown, but I never remember him saying he thought it was bad story.

But anyway, I think he legitimately didn't mean for it to come off as a physical rape. Like Darth said, Moore isn't afraid of portraying rape (often something he's criticized for, actually), and if he really had that in mind, I think he'd be pretty forward with it. People will say DC pressured him not to say it was due to it being a Batman book, but considering how most of his comments on the book came after he left the company, and the book already had some insanely black stuff in it, I'm inclined to not really believe that. That's not to say someone can't see that, since I guess it's ambiguous enough that you can, but it honestly never even crossed my mind that he physically raped Babs until I heard that theory on the internet, and I know I'm not the only one.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Did Moore admit it was a bad story? I always knew he thought the praise it got was overblown, but I never remember him saying he thought it was bad story.

i dont know if he's said its a BAD story, but i remember him saying its the least favorite story that he's written. he said that batman didnt develop as a character, he was still the same person at the end as he was at the beginning.

 

[Laughing guy]

I really enjoyed the killing joke. The to of them laughing at the end never really made sense to me. Though it did change somethings in the batman universe though. I'm happy that Barbara Gordon will be batgirl again kind of wanna see where they are gonna go with this

 

[Roose Bolton]

I also liked The Killing Joke.Showing the Joker at his absolute worst, while simultaneously showing him at his most sympathetic, a great story of morality.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I can say as a pseudo-outsider (I've read Geoff John's GL stuff and I've read some of Dini's Detective run) I'm kinda excited about all this. I hate Superman's new suit and everything but I'm excited about the possibility of reading about superheroes early in their careers without all the baggage of years and years of confusing comics history. I agree that the stories shouldn't be serialized (something I think Dini handled fairly well) and all that. I've been hesitant to enter into the DC universe any more than I have, but with this reboot I'm hopeful that I might be able to read stuff and know what the heck is going on without turning to wikipedia for help.

 

[JAK®]

I think it's a massive missed opportunity.

 

[Laughing guy]

I'm sure it will bring new readers. The question is how long will they stay around for? I agree that it will be cool to be able to pick up some stuff i have not read in a long time. Superman's suit doesn't really bother me that much but I can see why people are upset about it. I'm really pumped for nightwing to back.

 

[T-1000 2.0]

I think this reboot is a waste. Yes it will bring in new readers, but for how long? Once you get to issue #20, you are right back where you started with “newer” readers not knowing where to pick up or what is going on. And with titles like Batman not really even getting a reboot, just going back to #1, what is the point?

Superman's suit doesn't really bother me that much but I can see why people are upset about it. I'm really pumped for Nightwing to back.

I do actually think Superman’s new costume looks pretty cool, and it is nice to have a change with him. As for Nightwing, I think it is a bad move. DC has spent all this time building Dick to be a top player in the universe and then to have him go back to Nightwing is a HUGE step backwards. Now I am not saying Nightwing will fail, but I really don't see that title selling as well, or even close, to Batman and Robin or something like that. So once again Dick is back to the B team for DC.

 

[Mystirious]

Seeing the new Superman knocked me down from very positive to indifferent faster a you-know-what.

Barbara Gordon's Batgirl, all fangasms aside, is redundant now. She has more experience, and is far more integrated into Batman's world than Kate Kane, and she's of course not a "girl" anymore. None of this was lost while she was Oracle and she was a major power in the DCU. Only one of the redheads should've made the cut, and if Batwoman is still going to be relevant in the DCnU it should've been her alone IMO.

Goddamn, Stephanie can't catch a break. She was unfairly sacrificed on the Altar of Dead Robins, then when she found a new place where she could (and was) making her own mark, they pull her again for no reason. Screw that, I might just pass on Barb's new book after all

If DC ever replaced Kate Kane with Barbara Gordon i would not buy the Batwoman comic. In fact I would never buy any dc product again

In fact if DC ever replaced Kate Kane with any straight woman i would never buy any dc products ever again. The reason I love and care about Batwoman so much is because she is a kick ass positive lgbt character. If they ever replaced her with some straight character I would have no interest in reading about it

If Barbara Gordon was Batwoman i would have no interest in buying her comic book at all and would stop buying anything from DC. I only want Kate Kane to be Batwoman. I dont want any other characters to be Batwoman especially not a straight character

 

[DACrowe]

I stumbled onto a bunch of people complaining about TKJ because of a rape that did not happen? The book never insinuates rape and the writer has since said there was no rape. The Joker is too much of an asexual and androgynous creature for that to factor in. Though I do not think a story that seriously tackles sex crimes in a thoughtful and sincere way is automatically misogynistic. For example, read The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. But I'm getting off point--TKJ is a masterpiece because it does a better job than any other story of defining the relationship between Batman and Joker in a philosophical pretext and giving the Joker the motivation of validating his madness as a worldview and justn ot crazy for crazy's sake. It is the basis of much of The Joker's portrayal in The Dark Knight and it is a classic. To write it off as too dark is ridiculous. There have been plenty of gratuitous Batman stories, but that is not one of them.

Onto why I originally came here. The retcon/relaunch I am ambivalent about because I only read comics occasionally these days and by TPB at that. However, I have a sinking feeling about this. The same sinking feeling I had as Spidey approached One More Day. The kind of sinking feeling that a company (Marvel in that case) is so determined to reinvent these characters for a younger audience that likely barely exists anymore and will soon be gone forever that they'll throw everything under the bus to make it work.

But I'll have months of fans discussing it before I read a single story from the relaunch, so I have plenty of time to wait and see.

 

[Drz]

Well the more popular the character the less "drastic changes" the character will endure, we don't know whats gonna happen with Wonder Woman, but stuff like Titans are clearly getting some changes here and there, but for example nothing changes with Batman, TKJ did happen and Barbara has experienced that drama, so yeah it's only inevitable for the Batgirl writer to have Babs face the Joker.

The younger audience thing is bullcrap, but yeah Action Comics will show Superman's early days, Justice League's 1st arc is an "Secret Origin" story by Geoff Johns and thats about it really. Also Joker's motivation has pretty much been all about his enourmous ego and that was his prime motivation but then it derived to that "lol hes crazy" but a great example of his ego madness is the Laughing Fish and Jack Nicholshon Joker demanding his face on the dollar.

 

[Mystirious]

I'm interested to find out how she got the use of her legs back

I dug the fan theory that her costume will be a mecha suit that she uses to allow her to walk. It makes sense as Bruce is spending a lot of money on developing gadgets for Batman Inc

 

[JewishHobbit]

What's the Death of Oracle storyline been about (I think that's what it's called)? Does it feel like they're building toward her walking again with that?

 

[Mystirious]

Nope that was about

Spoiler

Oracle faking her death because the Calculator and his allies wanted her dead

 

[Kitsune]

Okay this one is related to the Relaunch:
http://cdn.the-gutters.com/comics/73c3d74966b9266611e84ebccae20f05ceda4ba7.jpg
it's got the f-word so I changed it to a link... I can't edit it from here.

 

[Darthphere]

That's dumb.

 

[HighFivingMF]

...Why is Flash pregnant?