Sorry about being off topic but...
I have to dissagree with you about the not being equals thing... sort of. Yeah in the beginning, Batman was playing catchup for the most of the movie because he never dealt with someone like the Joker before, but by the time he unveiled the sonar device, it seemed like he finally understood the Joker.
"It's not that simple, with the Joker it never is."
And there was also the part where Batman figured out that the Joker swapped the goons clothes with the hostages clothes and he had to stop the Swat guys from killing the hostages while at the same time saving them and the hostages from the goons dressed like doctors. I figure by that point they are equals.
As far as the passengers not killing each other taking the piss out of Batman saving them, I don't see that either and that's because of what Batman said to Gordon and the Joker showing that he had faith in Gotham.
"There's not going to be any fireworks."
"What were you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone's as ugly as you?"
"This city just showed you that it's full of people ready to believe in good."
I never said Batman didn't understand the Joker. I think by the time Harvey turned himself in as the Batman, Bruce knew what kind of a man Joker was. It was pretty much hammered into him by Alfred and Maroni. Alfred comparing Joker to that bandit who stole rubies and then threw them away because it was good sport. And Maroni telling Batman that everyone in the underworld is wise to his act, because he has rules, but the Joker has none, which is why nobody is going to sell out the Joker to Batman.
There's huge difference between understanding him, and being able to keep up with him. But that is the difference between Batman in the comics and in TDK. Batman never had this much difficulty keeping up with the Joker in the comic books. And never suffered so many losses at once because of it, either.
And when you say that the Ferry Incident wasn't Joker's pinnacle personally, I don't believe Joker had a grand plan of sorts. I think for the most part he just wanted to cause as much chaos as humanly possible, he saw what happened to Dent and rolled with it. You can say what you want to the contrary, but I never felt we ever really got a look inside The Joker's head one bit in the movie so I feel we don't really know what's going on in there.
But even if corrupting Dent was the pinnacle of his plan as you said, then that plan got foiled too because he corrupted Dent to destroy Gotham completely. And Batman chose to take the fall because "The Joker Cannot Win"
"You don't think I'd risk the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you, do you?"
Joker had a plan. He wanted to shatter Gotham's spirit. Corrupting Harvey was his ace in the hole to do that. Yes, Batman stopped that by putting the blame for himself on Harvey's crimes [Don't why he did such a foolish thing. They could have easily just blamed the Joker for them].
But Joker still had a triumph. "They need you right now. When they don't....they'll cast you out. Like a leper". And he was right. Batman was an outcast at the end. A criminal and a freak in the public's eyes, just like the Joker. Harvey was dead. Rachel was dead.
How does that make Batman an equal to the Joker? At best, Batman foiled Joker's ultimate scheme, but with a terrible price. An equal Batman could have foiled the scheme and kept his reputation as a hero. Which he so easily could have done in TDK by blaming Harvey's crimes on Joker.
An equal is someone who can match their foe. Batman was an equal to Ra's in Begins. Destroyed Ra's' base in the Himilayas, put Falcone and Scarecrow behind bars, saved Rachel's life from Scarecrow's toxin, and defeated Ra's' ultimate scheme while still being a hero.
And when you think about it, Ra's had this huge worldwide organisation, that's been around for hundreds of years, that had infiltrated every level of Gotham's infrastructure, and Batman foiled them admirably.
The Joker was a lone gun who climbed his way up the ladder of the Gotham underworld with "A few drums of gas and a couple of bullets", and Batman was totally overwhelmed by him.
Yea i think they were even stevens by the end. Only in principle though, yes Batman ruined Jokers plot and was noble enough to take the blame for Dent. But Joker wins on the personal level IMO, i mean what could be worse for Bruce/Batman than having the love of his life blown to pieces and everyone in Gotham thinking that he is the thing that he most despises? The only personal defeat Batman put on Joker was when Joker realised that he is alone, that no one else is as messed up as him. But i don't think he'll dwell on it too much.
Does Joker realize he's alone? He was convinced that once Gotham saw what he did to Harvey, they'd all crack and lose hope. And when Joker hears Batman took the blame for Harvey's crimes, then Joker will know he was right. Otherwise why would Batman cover for Harvey?
At least in the Killing Joke, Joker knew he was alone at the end, because Gordon had not been driven insane despite of all the horrible things Joker did to him. It's why Joker has never tried anything like that again since.
He was well and truly defeated on that score.
How many times does Batman in the comics dwell on Jason and Barbara over the times he was able to stop the Joker?
Yeah, but that's a little different. He doesn't blame himself for what happened to Barbara. What Joker did to Barbara had nothing to do with Batman. He was just proving a point about himself. Joker never specifically targeted Jason. Jason defied Batman's orders and confronted the Joker solo. Yeah, Batman feels guilty, but it's not the same as in TDK.
Joker announced all his targets beforehand, from Rachel, Loeb, Harvey, and the Judge. And Batman failed to save them all. He got no prior warnings of Joker's attacks on Barbara or Jason. So it's hardly a valid comparison.
